75 gal Simple Grow Out

[Doc Andrew]

Greetings SD,

I've decided to document my latest project. I've enjoyed lurking around this forum for years, but it's time to put myself out there. I figure we all learn through sharing. Go easy on me :p

Background
I've been keeping discus for around 7 years. I consider myself more learned/knowledgable than experienced if you know what I mean.
Originally, I had 4 Wayne Ng maze and red cover/PE cross from Bob Garside at Upper Canada Discus.
When I moved I went with a batch of Stendkers from Hans. I still have a BSS, Marlborough, Flachen x SS, and RPB in a 46 gal bowfront. All are healthy and eat like pigs.
Over the years I've killed a few fish, successfully treated tapeworms and other parasites (due to LFS contamination and poor WC habits), battled a crazy work/life schedule and still managed to grow out 2.5-3 inch fish to a solid 6 inches on both occasions. Ive never attempted any breeding, however, I want to in the near future if I can budget the time.
This time I'm aiming to streamline my approach. I'm done with hauling buckets across the dining room and kitchen to get to a sink. I've been making it too hard on myself for years.

New Project
75 gal BB with stand purchased used on Kijiji. Tank was disinfected with bleach, and a neat little sandpaper trick I learned from SD helped take off the calcium deposits. Stand was sanded down and sprayed with rust-proof paint.
I will not be adding anything to this tank. I've had such bad luck adding plants and such to tanks. I always get parasites and mass amounts of diatoms. I especially hate scraping copious amounts of algae every few days.
Tank is located directly next to a wash basin. This is key for me.
DIY K1 moving bed, 2 bio filters (large and small sponges). Two air pumps to run them. I may require an upgrade on one pump.
Aqueon QuietFlow 75 - One day I want to try a sump, but it's not in the budget right now. I may DIY one out of a 10 gal I have lying around.
Jager 300W heater.
Safety Syphon from JEHM Co (350 gph) for fast and easy water changes directly into the wash basin. I'll also use a standard syphon for food clean up. I usually have 2 going at the same time to speed up the process.
55 gallon drum for aging water. It was an old vinegar drum that I purchased on kijiji for $20. I had to drill the top out to make a hole. Bleached it to disinfect, rinsed thoroughly, and used a dechlorinator to boot.
Back up heater and air stone used in the drum while aging the water - this will be new to me. Safety Syphon to pump from drum directly to the tank. NO MORE BUCKETS!!!

I also decided to try Dr. Tim's One and Only bacteria and ammonia products to cycle the tank. Bacteria, then ammonia (2 ppm) was added October 25, and API test kit was employed 24 hrs later. Ammonia still holding at 2ppm, Nitrate at 10 ppm, Nitrite at 0 ppm. This would indicate that the bacteria isn't up to snuff yet, but there is some conversion happening. I'll check the numbers again in 24 hrs to see if it's cycling. pH is at 7.6, but it comes out of the tap at 7. I'm aging water now, so I'll check the pH again tomorrow.

Seachem Safe will be employed with water changes. The backbone of this project will be a streamlined approach to water changes. The fish themselves are fantastic, but most importantly I need my new approach to be simple and painless if I ever expect to take it to the next level.

I'll be driving up to see Vern at Archer's Discus this Sunday to get a group of either 6-8 discus. It sounds like he's got 3.5-4 inchers of different varieties to chose from. His correspondence has been stellar thus far; I can't wait to meet him. It'll be a 4 hr drive to transport them, so I'll take photos as it's all happening and I'll update this thread when the fish get here.

Please feel free to share any tips or suggestions. Perhaps someone can answer a quick question right off the bat? Is it possible to put a second tank on the bottom portion of a typical 75 gal metal stand? I'm thinking about putting a shelf across the bottom portion to put another 65 gal there.

Here are a few pics for reference. Fish will be in this Sunday. I'll update this thread at that time.

Thanks,
DA

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[DiscusRob]

"Ammonia still holding at 2ppm, Nitrate at 10 ppm, Nitrite at 0 ppm"

Checking on something, did you happen to get nitrite and nitrates backwards, you shouldn't being showing 0 nitrites with amm still present, you would see amm, then nitrites, finally nitrates, if your post is accurate I would check your water supply for nitrates. jmho.

[Doc Andrew]

"Ammonia still holding at 2ppm, Nitrate at 10 ppm, Nitrite at 0 ppm"

Checking on something, did you happen to get nitrite and nitrates backwards, you shouldn't being showing 0 nitrites with amm still present, you would see amm, then nitrites, finally nitrates, if your post is accurate I would check your water supply for nitrates. jmho.

Thanks, Rob. I'm going to check the parameters again tonight after work. I'll make sure I didn't mix something up. I'll post later.

[Doc Andrew]

Ammonia now reading .5 ppm, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0.

So, I'm guessing Dr. Tim's product was a complete dud. How's that for a review? lol

New plan: Drain 55 gal of water, overdose with Safe to neutralize remaining ammonia, then add 55 gal of freshly aged water. Check paramaters again in 24 hrs.

[Davidzil]

Dr. Tim's One and Only bacteria and ammonia worked for me and several of my friends.
Hope the bottle you got was not old, or maybe the test kit.
I had fish in the tank same week.
Try a different test kit.

[Doc Andrew]

Dr. Tim's One and Only bacteria and ammonia worked for me and several of my friends.
Hope the bottle you got was not old, or maybe the test kit.
I had fish in the tank same week.
Try a different test kit.

I think I will get another test kit. I can't explain why the ammonia reading would go up like that. The Bacteria was still within the best before date and it was stored in the fridge after delivery. The wild card is that is was shipped to Canada from the States. Not sure if maybe the temperatures it was exposed to could have killed some of the bacteria? Regardless, I'll be doing copious amounts of WC so I hope to keep the water fresh while the cycle takes place.

[Filip]

Hi Doc Andrew and welcome aboard . Im glad that you have finnaly decided to join the community and share your thoughts and experience with us .
You seem pretty much knowledgable and allready experienced about keeping discus , so i dont have much to point you here .
I can only encourage you that if you are set and willing to do large daily WC with aged water , you can add discus right away and dont bother with chemisty and test kits .
I have done it on numerous occasions in my QT tank and it has worked for me . Just keep the glass and the filters completly clean and change water , as much as your discus will ask you to do . And they have their ways of telling this , im sure you already knoe that :).

Good luck Andrew and keep us updated with pics and info . and dont forget that sharing makes learning much faster and easier on us :)

[DiscusRob]

Hi Doc Andrew and welcome aboard . Im glad that you have finnaly decided to join the community and share your thoughts and experience with us .
You seem pretty much knowledgable and allready experienced about keeping discus , so i dont have much to point you here .
I can only encourage you that if you are set and willing to do large daily WC with aged water , you can add discus right away and dont bother with chemisty and test kits .
I have done it on numerous occasions in my QT tank and it has worked for me . Just keep the glass and the filters completly clean and change water , as much as your discus will ask you to do . And they have their ways of telling this , im sure you already knoe that :).

Good luck Andrew and keep us updated with pics and info . and dont forget that sharing makes learning much faster and easier on us :)

Filip, I'm no where near being an expert here when it comes to discus, but I've kept many rare and endangered species of African Cichlids, reef tanks, fowlr, and numerous fresh water tropical tanks of various sizes since childhood. One staple and it is a very important staple is a Very Reliable Test Kit, no matter how much water you change, you need a good test kit. You have to have one, no matter what..JMHO

[Filip]

It can most certainly help us Rob , as a pointer for the phase of the cycling process and for a piece of mind that no high levels of ammonia or nitrite are present in the water during the cycling .
I was just saying that discus can be introduced without proper cycling if we are willing to do an extra effort with WC and cleaning regime . Its a bit more risky and more work for the keeper , but its oftenly done.
i was also trying to imply that discus behavour is a pretty good and trustworthy pointer for the current water quallity .

P.S. i wrote this advice here to Andrew only because i read that he allready has 7 years of experience and theoretical knowledge of discus keeping. I woudnt dare to advice this practise to a first time dicus owner .

[Doc Andrew]

Quick update:

8 fish selected. 3 wattley turqs, 2 F2 wilds, 2 snow leopards, and a scorpion. Fish were acclimating through the night so I had the lights down. I will get some better pics tonight after all the trick or treating and a WC.

Thanks for all the comments/advice so far. I will be keeping up with massive WCs, but Vern also gave me a used sponge to help me get the cycle started.

Here's a small taste to tide everyone over.

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[Filip]

Congrats on your new discus Andrew . I think you've made a beautiful selection of discus strains.
Vern made a very big favour giving you that cycled sponge filter . You should be a lot safer from ammonia and nitrates now .
We look forward for more and better pics , as soon as your discus acclimatize and colour up again.
Your teaser pic looks promising , at least :)

[Doc Andrew]

Clearly I need to work on my photography skills, but you'll get the point.
After roughly 30 hours in the tank all fish have eaten BH, FBW and tetra colour bits. Fifty gal of water was changed this evening. I've also been putting peat in a sock with the bubbler in the water barrel during aging to help soften the water a bit.
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[Filip]

They are looking great Andrew. I like the snow leopards colours and dotting in the young phase.
Keep on the good work with them .

[Doc Andrew]

Thanks, Filip.

Water changes going well. Doing 50-70% nightly. The discus do look a bit stressed during this time. I think they are still settling.

Another mod that I made tonight was adding 0.5 inch blue styro to the sides and bottom of the tank. The metal stand provides no boundaries to the bottom glass and the fish seemed stressed. They'd spend all their time swimming along the bottom glass, not throughout the water column (unless all the lights are off). Problem solved, I hope.
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[Doc Andrew]

Just a quick update and a question:

8 days in the tank. 50-70% water change per day (I've never changed so much water in my life!). But my setup has worked brilliantly. It's super easy and hassle-free.

All fish are eating FDBW and BH mix.

While the lights are out they are relaxed and swim throughout the water column. When I turn the lights on they are definitely stressed, often hiding. I have to remind myself that these fish are only a few generations from being crossed to wild stock - so I'm thinking this may explain their natural response to a potential threat - ME! Overall, the fish are healthy. Minimal/no stress bars showing, only one fish clamps fins occasionally.

I'm switching from a Hagen Life-glo T8 (980 lumens I think) to an aqua-glo T8 (270 lumens) just to reduce the intensity of light. Does anyone else have any suggestions?

I would have assumed they would settle in a bit better with the lights on by now, but it's taking some time. I use a night light and only run one of two bulbs in the day and evening while I'm admiring, feeding and cleaning. I put 2 breeding cones in for structure/comfort. Plus I've planted a chair in front of the tank and I spend a good hour looking at them every day. I've also tried some hand feeding with mixed results. They are warming up to me slowly, however.

Any other tips to help these fish settle? I was hoping to keep the tank simple, but I will consider driftwood for some cover if it will help. In the meantime I'll just keep up my routine and let them adjust.

[Doc Andrew]

Late night, low light pics.
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[Ryan925]

Nice pics.. My phone takes terrible low light pics. Wish it was better cuz I can't really capture the pattern and color.

[Doc Andrew]

Oh man - I took like 25 pics and these were the only acceptable ones... lol. iPhone 6 is what I used.

Thanks though, Ryan. I've been admiring your journal for a while.

[Ryan925]

Oh man - I took like 25 pics and these were the only acceptable ones... lol. iPhone 6 is what I used.

Thanks though, Ryan. I've been admiring your journal for a while.

Thanks Andrew is that the turq? It looks very similar to the striated cobalts I've been seeing lately. Love the pattern.

[Doc Andrew]

Yes, that's one of 3 turqs. This one is my fave in the tank. Fantastic shape. I'm thinking it will be nearly solid by the time it's mature.

[Ryan925]

Yes, that's one of 3 turqs. This one is my fave in the tank. Fantastic shape. I'm thinking it will be nearly solid by the time it's mature.

Does have great shape. I always thought my turq looked a little funky. It's those high fins when they are younger. He is definitely rounding out but I notice he is much narrower than the others.

I started to worry but that's when Kenny told me that the taller finned strains often have a narrower body

[Doc Andrew]

Quick little photo update. I feel like they have grown already after just a little over 2 weeks in the tank. The F2 wilds are REALLY growing on me. One of them is still a bit shy but the rest are settling in. I tried switching to Aqua-Glo lights, but decided to go back to the Life-Glo.

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[Ryan925]

Just a quick update and a question:

8 days in the tank. 50-70% water change per day (I've never changed so much water in my life!). But my setup has worked brilliantly. It's super easy and hassle-free.

All fish are eating FDBW and BH mix.

While the lights are out they are relaxed and swim throughout the water column. When I turn the lights on they are definitely stressed, often hiding. I have to remind myself that these fish are only a few generations from being crossed to wild stock - so I'm thinking this may explain their natural response to a potential threat - ME! Overall, the fish are healthy. Minimal/no stress bars showing, only one fish clamps fins occasionally.

I'm switching from a Hagen Life-glo T8 (980 lumens I think) to an aqua-glo T8 (270 lumens) just to reduce the intensity of light. Does anyone else have any suggestions?

I would have assumed they would settle in a bit better with the lights on by now, but it's taking some time. I use a night light and only run one of two bulbs in the day and evening while I'm admiring, feeding and cleaning. I put 2 breeding cones in for structure/comfort. Plus I've planted a chair in front of the tank and I spend a good hour looking at them every day. I've also tried some hand feeding with mixed results. They are warming up to me slowly, however.

Any other tips to help these fish settle? I was hoping to keep the tank simple, but I will consider driftwood for some cover if it will help. In the meantime I'll just keep up my routine and let them adjust.


Quick little photo update. I feel like they have grown already after just a little over 2 weeks in the tank. The F2 wilds are REALLY growing on me. One of them is still a bit shy but the rest are settling in. I tried switching to Aqua-Glo lights, but decided to go back to the Life-Glo.

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I know exactly what you mean. I just got a small alenquer cross from Kenny and love this fish. Dying to see its pattern and color develop.

Fish are looking great

[Doc Andrew]

2 month update:

Nice growth so far, some more than others. Until 2 days ago they remained skittish every time I approached the tank. I would have to wait a while before they felt comfortable to come out of hiding and eat. So I added PFS and it seems to have made a HUGE difference. They are much more relaxed. Perhaps this "simple" grow-out will also get some driftwood in order to make them even more comfortable. At the end of the day I want them less stressed, and I want to be able to enjoy watching them swim freely.

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[Phillydubs]

Looking really nice! How old are they now ?

[Doc Andrew]

Good question: They were around 3.5-4.5 inches when I got them so I'm going to guess they are around 7-8 months old now. I could be off by a month but probably not more than that. The scorpion is a bit older.

[Doc Andrew]

Little photo update. Oh, and since adding the sand I've noticed detritus worms making their way up the glass. I've read up on them a bit, but I'm curious to hear if anyone else has had any interesting experiences with them.

The pic with the pair of turqs gives me hope that they might "hook up".

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[Doc Andrew]

Update:

Not a lot to report. January was busy so I found myself doing 60-70% water changes 3 out of every 5 days on average. No problem with the fish, other than a bit of nerves still. I saw 2 discus scratching on the cones 3 days ago, so I did 70% WCs each day since and the problem is gone. Sometimes I see these little dead flies on the inside of my tank under the light. Not sure what they are.

F2 Wild
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Snow Leopard
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Wattley Turq
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Wattley Turq - more red in this one
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[Ryan925]

Great job. They are looking very nice

[Doc Andrew]

Quick little video update.

https://youtu.be/AV065Kgrc0A

[Doc Andrew]

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[DatDiscusDude]

Nice group ! Any breeding activity ?

[Ryan925]

Love those snow leopards

[Doc Andrew]

Nice group ! Any breeding activity ?

Absolutely nothing yet! Unless it's going on when I'm not around. They still like to warm up to me when I'm hanging around. Their first inclination is to head to the corner of the tank when I walk past - then they slowly come out and feed/swim. But I haven't seen any twitching or booty shaking yet. I have a few confused Stendkers in an upstairs tank though. They've been showing off for each other for weeks now. Still no eggs though.

[Doc Andrew]

Love those snow leopards

Yes, those two are pretty incredible. They are the 2nd and 3rd largest fish in the tank. Interesting thing about those are that I'm told they are a recessive genotype. So, if they pair with a wild or turq you will get all wilds or all turqs (only 1 phenotype). However, if the two leopards pair up you will get multiple phenotypes - turqs, ghosts and wilds (I think).

I picked up a 20 gal tank at the Petco $1 per gallon sale last week. So, I'll we watching and waiting!

[Ryan925]

Yes, those two are pretty incredible. They are the 2nd and 3rd largest fish in the tank. Interesting thing about those are that I'm told they are a recessive genotype. So, if they pair with a wild or turq you will get all wilds or all turqs (only 1 phenotype). However, if the two leopards pair up you will get multiple phenotypes - turqs, ghosts and wilds (I think).

I picked up a 20 gal tank at the Petco $1 per gallon sale last week. So, I'll we watching and waiting!

Sounds like you have breeding aspirations. I've got two pairs and of course they both happen to be pb with non pb. Go figure. Don't really plan on breeding at the moment anyhow so it is what it is. Maybe one day but I would like to do a fry or small juvie growout first anyhow

[Doc Andrew]

Yes, breeding is on my list of things to accomplish. I'm realistic about it though - family and job come first. But who knows - maybe I can figure out how to grow raise small groups of good quality fish. But first I need some hook-ups!

[Doc Andrew]

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These are the Stendkers I mentioned. A blue SS and a flachen x SS. They are all talk and no action though. I think there is a chance they are both females. I haven't seen the tubes drop, but the tips do look different.

[Ryan925]

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These are the Stendkers I mentioned. A blue SS and a flachen x SS. They are all talk and no action though. I think there is a chance they are both females. I haven't seen the tubes drop, but the tips do look different.

Quite possible. Nice looking fish. The flachen looks very much like my cobalt. I actually think it may have been you that commented on one of my posts about that. Now that I've had my fish for a year the difference in the appearance of the males and females is very distinct. The females have the rounded back to the dorsal like those two while the males are very pointed with the beginnings of a trailer

[Doc Andrew]

Update:

One of my snow leopards hasn't been eating too much in the past 5 days. He still swims with the group and shows no signs of distress or illness, but when I ring the dinner bell he hangs back and watches the others eat. I noticed a translucent stool half excreted the other night so I decided to give him/her an epsom salt bath to see if he just needed to clear his bowels. Sometimes the stools look like that due to the FDBW casings. Temperature has also been raised to 88 degrees, thinking of going to 90 degrees. All other fish are acting totally normal.

Water changes are 50% every other day at this point, with no exception. Water is aged 48 hrs and Seachem Safe is used with changes. I'm also using Purigen in the filter now - which seems to be working. I haven't even checked water parameters (I never d0), but I likely should.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding the poop I'd be thrilled to get some recommendations. I didn't want to react and dose the tank too quickly.

And here is a pic of my largest Turq - 6.5 inches currently, around a year old. Thanks for looking.

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[Doc Andrew]

Everything seems to be find now with the snow leopard.

Last night I came downstairs and caught a glimpse of some mating behaviour. Both large turqs were cleaning cones and one snow leopard was joining in whilst shaking it's booty. Looks like things are going to get interesting!

Really big WC today, scorpion freaked out and dashed into something. Small cut over his right eye. I'll monitor for now.

[Doc Andrew]

The pattern is really starting to break up on this turq. Here's hoping he/she goes nearly solid. I'm really into that cobalt look lately. Nothing else new to report. The F2 wilds are growing much slower, as well as one of the turqs. I see bits and pieces of mating behaviour but nothing consistent and no obvious pairing.
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[Ryan925]

The pattern is really starting to break up on this turq. Here's hoping he/she goes nearly solid. I'm really into that cobalt look lately. Nothing else new to report. The F2 wilds are growing much slower, as well as one of the turqs. I see bits and pieces of mating behaviour but nothing consistent and no obvious pairing.
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Very interesting with that turq. Looking nice.

[Doc Andrew]

Thanks, Ryan. I'll have to pop over to your thread to see how your sapphire and alenquer are coming along.

[Ryan925]

Thanks, Ryan. I'll have to pop over to your thread to see how your sapphire and alenquer are coming along.

You're doing a great job man.

Those two of mine are slow growers but shaping up nicely

[KevsDiscus]

I use an 8 foot light strip wrapped around the rim of my 55 gallon tank. the lights face inward rather than down and it seems to help with the stress levels. I am also able to use different colors (light blue or even yellow) along with the ability to dim them. Im not an experienced discus keeper but aquariums have been a hobby for years. Just a suggestion not sure what anyone thinks.

[Doc Andrew]

Thanks for the tip. I had considered getting an LED strip in the past, but didn't know if it would suffice. What brand do you use?

[Ryan925]

Since I no longer run my 24/7 on 24/7 mode I added a blue strip to the bottom of my light. That way I can run a custom color and also have a night light without having to grab for my remote. I run both on wemo outlet timers and works out great.

[Doc Andrew]

Long overdue update:

Everything is hunky dory, really. Two Turks and the Snow Loeps are pretty much whoppers. They may grow a little bit more but I expect hem to mostly thicken up. The wilds are slower growing but still progressing. My scorpion was stunted to begin with and isn't doing much. He/she has become the target of bullying and just isn't thriving. Lots of aggression at this stage. Oh, and I switched back to my LED light on the 75 gal.

In the meantime I set up a heavy duty meta rack for a 60 gal and a 20 gal. I'm going to isolate some Stendker a that I have upstairs, and I just ordered 4 fish from Kenny - 2 Sapphire Ruby and 2 tiger/carnation turqs. I'll grow those out and keep with a few groups of non-BP fish in hopes that I might be able to get some breeding going.

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[Ryan925]

Long overdue update:

Everything is hunky dory, really. Two Turks and the Snow Loeps are pretty much whoppers. They may grow a little bit more but I expect hem to mostly thicken up. The wilds are slower growing but still progressing. My scorpion was stunted to begin with and isn't doing much. He/she has become the target of bullying and just isn't thriving. Lots of aggression at this stage. Oh, and I switched back to my LED light on the 75 gal.

In the meantime I set up a heavy duty meta rack for a 60 gal and a 20 gal. I'm going to isolate some Stendker a that I have upstairs, and I just ordered 4 fish from Kenny - 2 Sapphire Ruby and 2 tiger/carnation turqs. I'll grow those out and keep with a few groups of non-BP fish in hopes that I might be able to get some breeding going.

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Exciting stuff. Looks like you too have the discus bug. Look forward to seeing what's next. My nine are all from Kenny and look forward to more

[Doc Andrew]

Does anyone know how to post pics from your phone now? It appears the forum has been upgraded so that I can't upload photos in a reply anymore.

[Ryan925]

Does anyone know how to post pics from your phone now? It appears the forum has been upgraded so that I can't upload photos in a reply anymore.

I always use my phone. The issue I always had was photo size which prevented upload. I use an app on my phone called photo resized hd to resize photos

[Doc Andrew]

I always use my phone. The issue I always had was photo size which prevented upload. I use an app on my phone called photo resized hd to resize photos
It's weird - I can't see the icon for photo upload when I post now. It used to be there.

[Doc Andrew]

Figured it out - I had to use the "full site" option.

Anyways - here are a few pics.
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Below are my new sapphire rubies, blue carnations and tiger/carnation turq juvies from Kenny. All were 3-4.5 inches a couple of weeks ago, but they are already growing. One tiger turq developed bloat and white poo today so I hospitalized him and have administered metro with higher temp. Fingers crossed. I gave an Epsom salt bath too. These fish were all in a QT. I don't plan on mixing any.
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[White Worm]

Don't know that a bath of epsom is going to do anything for you. I use it in the tank as an additive when I suspect bloat. It won't hurt them in the regular tank for a period of time. It will be removed with water changes. You want it to do its work which could be hours/days.

[Doc Andrew]

I was hoping the magnesium would increase gut motility so the poop would move out quicker. I don't think it made a difference. I'll just continue with Metro treatment. The fish seems about the same. I was on top of it instantly so I hope I got to it in time.