small worms rigling in water! OK im in trouble!

[Keith024]

OK NOW I AM IN TROUBLE!

Ok so yesterday I posted a new thread saying that the PH dropped suddenly from 7.6 to 5.2 !

Now I am seeing live sort of micro worms floating around in the aquarium!

I am currently doing a fishless cycle with Ammonium Chloride.

I think it is time to start a fresh !!??? :(((

[Keith024]

I am suspecting either from the Philodendron plant I added or from the filter media I got from the fish breeder I am getting my fish from :(

[Keith024]

They look exactly like micro worms maybe 2 to 3mm long, white nearly transparent and very thin like hair... They can be seen floating and riggling in the middle of the aquarium only visible with a dark backgroud

I have also used some frozen shrimp before I started using ammonia.

Does anyone know what they are please?

[Kyla]

there r lots of little critters that live secretly in our aquariums. i wouldnt worry about what u r seeing at this point. u can try to ID them by the way they move and their shape, if u have a microscope u can get an up close pic and compare with what u find on the internet. here r some examples:

http://www.planetinverts.com/what_is_that_bug_in_my_aquarium.html

[Altum Nut]

Those are probably planaria worms and are harmless to fish in small numbers. It is possible they were on plant or filter media you got from breeder. Usually they appear when uneaten food is left in tank for long periods or dirt media which they feed off.
Since your doing a fishless cycle...I would replace or rinse media well and as for the plant you mix a solution of 10 parts water to 1 part bleach in a bucket and dip for a minute.
This should help get rid of them....or at least reduce the numbers.
...if you can get a photo it will help.

...Ralph

[Keith024]

This is what I have it is not my aquarium it is a video I got from youtube, however mine seem to be more thiny and in a less amount hopefully. I had left very little fish food in a net before I left for holiday for a week as I was told it will help with the cycle most probably that was the cause then...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsY7j17lrAE

[Keith024]

I dont think they are planaria but they may be nematodes according to what I am seeing and comparing online


http://www.planetinverts.com/what_is_that_bug_in_my_aquarium.html

They are not flat and do not have a pointed head, but they are roundish like a snake only very tiny and 3 to 4mm in length they are like hair and not stuck on the tank glass but free swimming in the water rigling like the video above.

[DJW]

I've had those before. Some kind of detritus worm. If you keep the tank clean for a while they will dwindle away. Cardinals eat them.

[Keith024]

or detritus worms

[Keith024]

I've had those before. Some kind of detritus worm. If you keep the tank clean for a while they will dwindle away. Cardinals eat them.

Thanks DJW as always great help I was panicking at one point. Guess I should already be doing more frequent water changes even though there is no fish in there !

[Keith024]

All info I am reading online is leading to overfeeding and ''unclean tanks''. However in my case since I am not feeding because I have not fish but using ammonium Chloride could it be that I had a bit too much ammonia in there? Does not uneaten rooting food turn into Ammonia right? So I wonder if these worms actually eat the found or the ammonia?

[Filip]

They are harmless Keith , dont worry to much about them . I think you got nematodes .
I had them in my sandbed when i started my tank with my last batch of discus . They dissapeared just like they came , out of nowhere :)

And Kyla . Great and informative link .TFS .

[Keith024]

Thanks Filip

I know they are harmless but I am afraid there is more than I thought I can now see 10 , 20 or even more floating in the aquarium, I think there is an infestation, if they live in the sand I was thinking of stopping the air pump and filter for half an hour or so let them sink to the bottom and then syphon all the sand out(I have a very thin layer) and put the sand in the boiling water and rinse it thoroughly then either leave the tank BB or add the sand slowly again...

[Keith024]

there r lots of little critters that live secretly in our aquariums. i wouldnt worry about what u r seeing at this point. u can try to ID them by the way they move and their shape, if u have a microscope u can get an up close pic and compare with what u find on the internet. here r some examples:

http://www.planetinverts.com/what_is_that_bug_in_my_aquarium.html

Thanks Kyla :) I think they are nematodes or detritus worms thanks !

[Keith024]

I have found this article which is very informative about the fact that a lot of people mis label these harmless detritus worms as planaria which in fact are totally different...

http://www.fish-as-pets.com/2007/11/planaria-detritus-internet-answers.html

[Filip]

Planaria and detritus worms are very different and easy to distinguish between each other , just like nematodes are .
And yes they need a surface to burrow in it , so ussualy they live either in the sandbed or in the filter materials.
You see them swimming around only when they got disturbed from their home , and that's ussualy after a WC .

[DJW]

... if they live in the sand I was thinking of stopping the air pump and filter for half an hour or so let them sink to the bottom and then syphon all the sand out(I have a very thin layer) and put the sand in the boiling water and rinse it thoroughly then either leave the tank BB or add the sand slowly again...

This is a good idea, as most of them are in the sand. I wouldn't stop the air, that will probably make them come out of the sand looking for more oxygen. I had worms living in a sponge filter once and if I stopped the air they squirmed out of the sponge. That's how I got them out.

By the way, they don't eat ammonia, they need organic matter, so removing the sand and keeping the tank clean is the easiest way to control them.

[Keith024]

Thanks once again for all your help I would have probably gave up by now if it wasnt for this Forum ! :)

I have done another 30% water change today (2 days in a row) I also tried to agitate/syphon the sand as much as I could so to get the worms out to get an idea how much there are and also to clean it. I didnt take it out of the tank yet... Syphoning the sand is proving to be not as easy as I thought it would be because I already bought two kits for syphoning the substate like the python but not that and I am working by gravity however the gravity doesnt seem to be enough to pull out all the debris on and in the sand, it seems that it is only strong enough to syphon the lightest of the material and most of it remains there thus not very effective!

Also since someone here on the forum had told me that at 80PPM TDS RO water was already quite high I had stopped adding the preiss discus minerals to the RO water with every water change and the KH has dropped to 1 - 2 on german scale and with it the PH. The PH once again today dropped down further to 4.9!!! I am getting confused now because on the instructions of the PREISS Discus minerals it says that you should add 15mg with every 100ltrs of Osmosis water, however when I was doing that with every water change of 100ltrs the TDS starting to go up and up and reached 276PPM (highest) then I stopped adding the Preiss discus minerals and it is now at 246PPM. I am confused should I or should I not add these minerals to 100% RO water and if I should how much should be the TDS in a Discus tank?

Water parameters this evening after a 30% water change this morning:

PH went down to 4.9
Ammonia: 0PPM
TDS:217PPM
KH - 1-2
GH - 5
Nitrate - 20-30 PPM (Yesterday after the water change the Nitrates were 10PPM, could it be since today during the WC I have disturbed the sand quite a lot that I may have released nitrates in the water column and that lead to this increase in the reading ??)

[DJW]

Something isn't right. How are you measuring pH? The cycle appears to be working, but should be stalled at such a low pH. Plus the KH would be 0 at pH 4.9.

Its hard to imagine how nitrates can hide in sand. Nitrate is more soluble than methylene blue dye...

[Keith024]

Yes KH could be 0 or maybe 1 as I am not sure exactly how it works I got this new (NOT API) KH test and says add the drops that you have to add for the liquid to turn orange from Blue. it seems that after a couple of drops the liquid start to get a tinge of orange and I never see any blue so I wasnt sure. What is is sure is that KH is way down.

Is it cause I stopped adding minerals to the RO Water during WC that the KH went down?

[Keith024]

I am measuring PH with the API test kit which is coming really light yellow and also with an electronic metre that is why I can tell it is below 6. The metre is quite accurate as I had previously compared to the API test kit and they read the same, however since the API kit does not go less then 6 I cant really compare them this time....

[DJW]

I looked up Preis minerals and they say it contains no KH at all. Some mineral additives are prepared that way, so that they have no effect on pH. If you never saw blue with the KH drops it means the KH is less than 1 for sure and zero if the pH is below the API test range.

Since you are in a fishless cycle the easiest way to get the KH and pH up where they belong is to add baking soda. One teaspoon per 50 gallons will add 1 degree of KH. I would add at least a tablespoon. Try to get the pH back to your tap water pH.

[Keith024]

Thats not good is it? So one should also monitor KH and add baking soda if it is noticed to decrease I guess..

no I never saw blue so it must be zero!

I will today purchase some baking soda

Anyone know what is a safe TDS value for discus I currently have around 270PPM due to adding the Preis Discus Minerals. but then if it does not have any effect on KH its no gone or is it? I was under the impression that all one would need to add to RO water was this type of reconstituting salts...

[DJW]

I think 80 ppm TDS is fine where it is. People use reconstituting salts mainly for calcium, but that is for water from an RO filter that has a TDS of 5 to 10 ppm, having been stripped almost entirely of minerals. In your case, partly from low pressure perhaps, but mostly from the extreme hardness of the tap water, the RO appears to have enough minerals in my opinion, unless you have fry in which case you would want more. (If the GH of the RO water is 0, which is not likely, it would indicate that the TDS of the RO is all salt and no calcium. Then you might add some minerals. You can check just in case since the desalination makes this a possibility.)

Trial and error will tell if you need to add KH to the water storage tank once you have fish. My KH is less than 1 and I don't need to add anything to keep the pH stable. But I change some water every day and don't have crowded tanks.

The fishless cycle will go faster if you keep the pH above 7 with partial water changes and baking soda, and add 2 ppm of ammonia whenever the ammonia gets to 0, or near 0. For powdered ammonium chloride, 1/4 teaspoon in 100 gallons is 1 ppm of ammonia.... but it is important to use the test kit to get the right amount of ammonia, not a calculation, because the strength and the different types of ammonia being used make the calculation unpredictable.

[Discus limit]

They may be from the filter and quiet normal, usually little white very thin strands.

[Keith024]

I think 80 ppm TDS is fine where it is. People use reconstituting salts mainly for calcium, but that is for water from an RO filter that has a TDS of 5 to 10 ppm, having been stripped almost entirely of minerals. In your case, partly from low pressure perhaps, but mostly from the extreme hardness of the tap water, the RO appears to have enough minerals in my opinion, unless you have fry in which case you would want more. (If the GH of the RO water is 0, which is not likely, it would indicate that the TDS of the RO is all salt and no calcium. Then you might add some minerals. You can check just in case since the desalination makes this a possibility.)

Trial and error will tell if you need to add KH to the water storage tank once you have fish. My KH is less than 1 and I don't need to add anything to keep the pH stable. But I change some water every day and don't have crowded tanks.

The fishless cycle will go faster if you keep the pH above 7 with partial water changes and baking soda, and add 2 ppm of ammonia whenever the ammonia gets to 0, or near 0. For powdered ammonium chloride, 1/4 teaspoon in 100 gallons is 1 ppm of ammonia.... but it is important to use the test kit to get the right amount of ammonia, not a calculation, because the strength and the different types of ammonia being used make the calculation unpredictable.

Thanks DJW,

I just checked GH of RO water straight from the RO and it took it 5 drops to change colour and it says on it that 1 drop corresponds to 1 degree on the german chart. So I guess there is some calcium left in the RO water and its not only salts.

So if I do not need to add anything to RO water why did the KH and then PH go down so drastically I ask. I am asking to avoid this in the future and to learn from my mistakes as this is a learning curve and I am trying to learn as much as possible before I decide to introduce any discus in the tank. I am thinking of a quote I read somewhere that Aquarists keep water and not fish ! :) I guess I still have to learn how to keep the water first :))

I have now purchased some Bicarbonate of soda and will add some to the tank hoping that KH and PH will go up....

With regards to Ammonia yes I am trying to keep it between 0 to 2PPM.

Many thanks once again ! :)


EDIT:

I added 1 tablespoon of Bicarbonate of Soda (BS) and around 30 minutes later PH went up from 4.9 to 7.5 :) That is good however KH is still pretty much zero as I when checking it, I added 1 and then 2 drops and no blue but got a tinge of orange immediately. So I guess KH is still pretty much low. If I add more BS I guess I would increase the PH further which I dont want. right? Since my RO water is at PH 7.6. My question is now with the KH so low still am I still susceptible to PH crashes?

[Keith024]

They may be from the filter and quiet normal, usually little white very thin strands.

Yes they are however I still have them floating around after a couple of days of doing 30% water changes and keeping the tank asclean as possible, I do not have any fish yet in it so I am not sure how come I have an infestation....

[DJW]

...why did the KH and then PH go down so drastically I ask. I am asking to avoid this in the future and to learn from my mistakes as this is a learning curve and I am trying to learn as much as possible before I decide to introduce any discus in the tank. I am thinking of a quote I read somewhere that Aquarists keep water and not fish ! :) I guess I still have to learn how to keep the water first :))

Nitrifying bacteria consume ammonia and bicarbonate at the same time. The bicarbonate is where they get their carbon. And the process makes acid, which also uses up bicarbonate. So in a tank with a functioning biofilter the KH is always going down, and usually bringing the pH with it. When the water has plenty of carbonate hardness, you don't notice it much, its when the KH gets below 1 that the pH can start to fall dramatically.

Just keep an eye on the pH and add some baking soda or fresh water to keep it around 7-7.5. Some of the pH is a bounce from CO2 being driven out temporarily.

You don't need the filter to process more than 2 or 2.5 ppm per day to have a strong enough cycle. More than that is not necessary and will only accelerate the pH falling.

"We don't keep discus, we keep water - the discus just happen to swim in it!" :)

[Keith024]

I have re checked the PH, KH and GH again these are the parameters, they have all gone up a bit more:

PH:7.7
KH:3-4
GH: 6

I think the cycle is working as Ammonia is dropping and Nitrates are increasing while Nitrites every time I checked them where zero.

I have read somewhere that Bicarbonate of Soda is not the best way to add buffer and keep PH stability in the long run. I am a bit disappointed with the PREIS Minerals as I thought they added all that RO water needed with regards to minerals, salts, calcium, GH, KH etc... Is there any other product to reconstitute RO water in a more complete way?