Introduction and input sought.....

[Ggz123]

Hi all, I am at work currently (on break!) so will post pics in the next couple of days. I am an experienced reefer and saltwater guy, but have always wanted to try discus which I am now doing. I am doing a fishless cycle on a 75 gallon reef ready tank. The media is being cycled in 3 separate 32 gallon rubbermaid containers. I did research on how to do a fishless cycle and am in week 3. My sump is a Bashsea Biofuge which I plan to have some watersprite in the refugium area. Filter media is biomaxx and pot scrubbers. I plan on tap water which comes out at 7.8 and is stable after treating with Seachem Prime. Temp is 84 - 85 degrees F. I plan on bare bottom with driftwood attached to the back of the tank to simulate roots hanging down. Will likely add some plants to the wood as well. I have done extensive research and there seems to be all kinds of rule of thumbs about the WC regime. I have engaged some of the recommended discus vendors (Hans, Chicago Discus, Mac's discus) and they have different advice as well. For instance, Hans recommends a weekly WC of 1/3 on a 50 gallon tanks stocked with 12 x 4" discus, 50 cardinals, a few bottom feeders. Well, Mac recommends that you let your fish tell you when to change water based on their appearance and behavior. I am sure many methods work, but I really want to keep the discus alive so any input is welcome. Also, I am torn on what size of discus to start out with? I can get smaller 2' to 2 1/2" fish at a great price in various multi-packs, but I have read that those size fish are better in smaller aquariums. So I have also been contemplating 3 to 4 " fish.

I do plan on updating with pics and status, but I was wondering if any of you could please provide input for maybe dividing my 75 gallon tank off with a divider for the smaller fish until they grow bigger then remove the divider? Thoughts?

Thanks in advance and what a great site!

[smsimcik]

Hi Greg and welcome to Simply. You came to the right place for discus advice.

Sounds like you want to set up a 75 gallon display tank. If so, I would recommend 6-7 adult discus, a school of 25-30 dither fish like cardinals or rummy nose tetras and some bottom feeders like corys. Feed high quality flake or pellets twice daily.
I would do twice/week water changes of at least 50%. Also vacuum the junk off the bottom and wipe down the sides with a paper towel. Dont' overstock and don't overfeed and twice weekly water changes should be fine for a group of adults. I would also mention to get all your discus from one source. Don't mix discus from 2-3 vendors. The vendors in the sponsor section here at Simply are the best in the country.

You need to forget about putting a bunch of 2"-3" juvenile discus in your setup unless you are ready to do large daily water changes and feed lots of beefheart or similar high protein foods. You won't need to mess around with a tank divider if you just go with adults. If you have done your research in the beginners section here on Simply, you will understand why juvies need daily water changes.

I'm sure Phil and some of the others will chime in if they see this thread. I'm sure they can offer plenty of good advice.

[Ggz123]

Hi Greg and welcome to Simply. You came to the right place for discus advice.

Sounds like you want to set up a 75 gallon display tank. If so, I would recommend 6-7 adult discus, a school of 25-30 dither fish like cardinals or rummy nose tetras and some bottom feeders like corys. Feed high quality flake or pellets twice daily.
I would do twice/week water changes of at least 50%. Also vacuum the junk off the bottom and wipe down the sides with a paper towel. Dont' overstock and don't overfeed and twice weekly water changes should be fine for a group of adults. I would also mention to get all your discus from one source. Don't mix discus from 2-3 vendors. The vendors in the sponsor section here at Simply are the best in the country.

You need to forget about putting a bunch of 2"-3" juvenile discus in your setup unless you are ready to do large daily water changes and feed lots of beefheart or similar high protein foods. You won't need to mess around with a tank divider if you just go with adults. If you have done your research in the beginners section here on Simply, you will understand why juvies need daily water changes.

I'm sure Phil and some of the others will chime in if they see this thread. I'm sure they can offer plenty of good advice.

Thanks so much for the reply.....what size is adult? Can I do 4" and above?

[Ggz123]

One other quick question........if smaller fish do better is a smaller tank, and daily large water changes are necessary, does the tank really need to be cycled? It just seems like the large water changes would suffice......thx in advance

[smsimcik]

5.5"-6" or 1 year of age is an adult.
4" if properly cared for is only 6-8 months old.

[smsimcik]

It doesn't matter what size the tank is, it matters how many fish/gallon. How many small fish do you want? You could put up to 20-25, 2.5" juvies in a 75 gallon tank. But I would only start with maybe 15.
I think your tank is already partially cycled. If you are doing 90% daily water changes, your tank is probably cycled enough.

[Ggz123]

It isn't that I want small fish, it is just less expensive to get them. I am perfectly fine with bigger fish especially since this is my first attempt with Discus. I agree to stay with advice with one vendor, however, the context was for researching and picking peoples brains. I will not name names......but one breeder/vendor said that small fish (2 - 2 1/2") in a smaller tank would be better to start with because smaller fish ship better and grow better by restricting their movement, therefore reducing burning calories and all the fish would grow more evenly than putting them loose in a larger tank like mine. This person also stated that 15 - 20 smaller fish in a 20 -30 gallon tank (or divide my tank up to get that restriction) would be the way to go. The particular vendor has plenty of good review and some bad reviews. However, another vendor on this forum said that large water changes is the key for smaller fish and not restricting them to a smaller tank.......basically what I think you just stated smsimcik.
A priority for me is to make sure the discus are healthy and have a great environment to thrive........at this point the size of the fish is secondary to me.....although smaller fish are less expensive but that is not a show stopper. So with all that, I could setup a 29 gallon tank and raise up some smaller fish and the large daily water changes from the frequent feedings would be much less of an issue.
Given all that, I welcome your thoughts......especially small fish vs larger fish (discus) and shipping, acclimating to a new environment, etc.
"

[Ggz123]

It isn't that I want small fish, it is just less expensive to get them. I am perfectly fine with bigger fish especially since this is my first attempt with Discus. I agree to stay with advice with one vendor, however, the context was for researching and picking peoples brains. I will not name names......but one breeder/vendor said that small fish (2 - 2 1/2") in a smaller tank would be better to start with because smaller fish ship better and grow better by restricting their movement, therefore reducing burning calories and all the fish would grow more evenly than putting them loose in a larger tank like mine. This person also stated that 15 - 20 smaller fish in a 20 -30 gallon tank (or divide my tank up to get that restriction) would be the way to go. The particular vendor has plenty of good review and some bad reviews. However, another vendor on this forum said that large water changes is the key for smaller fish and not restricting them to a smaller tank.......basically what I think you just stated smsimcik.
A priority for me is to make sure the discus are healthy and have a great environment to thrive........at this point the size of the fish is secondary to me.....although smaller fish are less expensive but that is not a show stopper. So with all that, I could setup a 29 gallon tank and raise up some smaller fish and the large daily water changes from the frequent feedings would be much less of an issue.
Given all that, I welcome your thoughts......especially small fish vs larger fish (discus) and shipping, acclimating to a new environment, etc.
"

also want to point out that water changes is not an issue for me and I know I will be doing them regardless and am willing to do that. But obviously if smaller fish is the way to go for a beginner (discus) like myself, I would rather make the task easier by raising them in a smaller tank and therefore making the large water changes easier, quicker, etc., until they were big enough to move to the main tank. If adult fish are better to start with then that is what I need to know. Sorry for the length and thanks again for the warm welcome.

[smsimcik]

IMHO adult discus in a display tank with twice weekly water changes is much easier for a beginner than trying to grow out a bunch of juvies.
However, juvies are less expensive but much more work. It takes several months to grow them out to adult size. If you are up to the challenge, go with juvies.

[Ggz123]

IMHO adult discus in a display tank with twice weekly water changes is much easier for a beginner than trying to grow out a bunch of juvies.
However, juvies are less expensive but much more work. It takes several months to grow them out to adult size. If you are up to the challenge, go with juvies.

Ok, thanks for the input. The 2x weekly water changes of what percentage do you recommend as a minimum?.......I am assuming I'll have 8 - 10 adult discus in the tank based on the 75 gallon main tank and 36 gallon sump. i know it is likely subjective and has other factors, but I welcome your answer based on experience.....

[Phillydubs]

Bigger is always better... What is the most you can do?

[smsimcik]

Ok, thanks for the input. The 2x weekly water changes of what percentage do you recommend as a minimum?.......I am assuming I'll have 8 - 10 adult discus in the tank based on the 75 gallon main tank and 36 gallon sump. i know it is likely subjective and has other factors, but I welcome your answer based on experience.....

Like I said in my first reply, at least 50%. But like Phil said, more is better. Up to 90% would be good.

[Ggz123]

Like I said in my first reply, at least 50%. But like Phil said, more is better. Up to 90% would be good.

my apologies, I failed to remember you had stated 50 %. Thanks for the input and please be patient with me! I'll have more questions I'm sure.

[Phillydubs]

Steve gave you some really sound advice and I would listen to what he said as he was spot on.

I would also suggest the biggest fish you can afford. I always tell people to do the math quick and decide what to do for yourself. Big healthy adult discus are expensive but kinda what you see is what you get or close. Even at 4-5" you can get some growth if treated right but you see the results usually and as steve said less work less food less time etc.

Juvies are a lot of work, a lot of water, alot of food. So once you factor that in, for a solid 6-12 months or more the price usually levels out or you spend more money on the juvies.

Now some people love to grow fish out, see what they get, watch them get big. Others (like myself) prefer the larger variety and letting a pro do the work and I reap the gorgeous reward of enjoying and watching the fish.

[Ggz123]

Yep, I'm convinced going with larger fish is the way to go. Also found a way to expedite the water changes via a python type system.......lol.......will be easier than lifting buckets. I'll pump it out and use another pump to fill the tank backup from my rubbermaid containers holding the aged water. Thanks for the input and please keep it coming......I'm really excited that the ammonia cycle is now showing progress so hopefully it will be soon.

[Phillydubs]

Sounds awesome Greg...!

I suggest ditching your system, the python deal and invest a few extra bucks in a pony pump or some form of pond pump, will move water much more efficiently. That is what I use now and its a dream. I used to be a 5 gallon bucket dude, those days get old fast, my new system is a sinch and takes 25 min max...

[Phillydubs]

Something like this I use, hose on one end in the tank to siphon another out the window to the garden or drain and viola!

http://www.wholesalepumpsdirect.com/store/p/1712-Little-Giant-370-Pony-Pump-555113-Utility-Transfer-Pump-High-Temp.html?feed=Froogle&gclid=Cj0KEQiAtqHEBRCNrdC6rYq9_oYBEiQAejvRl-ZM5I1--sVIXfqY47UF4ysmiMWbIIEV7SsuzIbISm0aApk98P8HAQ

[Ggz123]

Something like this I use, hose on one end in the tank to siphon another out the window to the garden or drain and viola!

http://www.wholesalepumpsdirect.com/store/p/1712-Little-Giant-370-Pony-Pump-555113-Utility-Transfer-Pump-High-Temp.html?feed=Froogle&gclid=Cj0KEQiAtqHEBRCNrdC6rYq9_oYBEiQAejvRl-ZM5I1--sVIXfqY47UF4ysmiMWbIIEV7SsuzIbISm0aApk98P8HAQ

Great, I will look into that for sure!

[JBurgo]

Hi Greg,

Just read through your thread because I'm thinking of starting a Tank Journal myself and my posts are starting to become disjointed.

I have a 600L tank, about twice the size of yours. I can't believe that people are telling you that discus will grow more due to having restricted movement in a small tank. A small tank would allow you to change more water and more frequently quicker and easier, that's about it in my opinion. It could also help juveniles find food. This is good for growing out fish, as is more frequent feeds and warmer temperatures. Fish don't grow small in the wild due to having too much space, that sounds absurd. Discus are not big swimmers, they like to hang around structure. In my tank I have 2 structures, one at each end, and they swim between them in groups, and at night they hide around them. Just putting a structure in the tank may reduce their movement if that's the intention, but it will calm them down.

The other advice I would give is to know your water. Definitely start by aging your water and checking for a pH change. Age your water for 3-4 days at first and reduce the days one at a time, so `your fish and test kit together` tell you what the minimum time is. Aerate and heat match it to your tank on the last day before the change. I have a few tanks and one I keep a community tank of `leftovers` from previous tanks and fish my kids pick out from the LFS. It's not a huge priority in my fishkeeping, but I take care of it as the `kids tank`. There's a few discus in there too. I was in a bit of a hurry one weekend and I only aged the water from the morning to afternoon that day, threw some prime in it and did a 90% WC. The Discus hit the sand, turned black and their slime coat fell off. Lucky they're healthy and they bounced back over the next couple of days, but now I always age 2 days minimum and only change 50%. Even my Wilds last night got 1 1/2 days and they were upset for about 2 hours. Your water isn't my water, but like Phil said, `know your water`. And I just wouldn't start out at 90% daily un-aged water changes. People who do that know and prepare their water.

[Ggz123]

Hi Greg,

Just read through your thread because I'm thinking of starting a Tank Journal myself and my posts are starting to become disjointed.

I have a 600L tank, about twice the size of yours. I can't believe that people are telling you that discus will grow more due to having restricted movement in a small tank. A small tank would allow you to change more water and more frequently quicker and easier, that's about it in my opinion. It could also help juveniles find food. This is good for growing out fish, as is more frequent feeds and warmer temperatures. Fish don't grow small in the wild due to having too much space, that sounds absurd. Discus are not big swimmers, they like to hang around structure. In my tank I have 2 structures, one at each end, and they swim between them in groups, and at night they hide around them. Just putting a structure in the tank may reduce their movement if that's the intention, but it will calm them down.

The other advice I would give is to know your water. Definitely start by aging your water and checking for a pH change. Age your water for 3-4 days at first and reduce the days one at a time, so `your fish and test kit together` tell you what the minimum time is. Aerate and heat match it to your tank on the last day before the change. I have a few tanks and one I keep a community tank of `leftovers` from previous tanks and fish my kids pick out from the LFS. It's not a huge priority in my fishkeeping, but I take care of it as the `kids tank`. There's a few discus in there too. I was in a bit of a hurry one weekend and I only aged the water from the morning to afternoon that day, threw some prime in it and did a 90% WC. The Discus hit the sand, turned black and their slime coat fell off. Lucky they're healthy and they bounced back over the next couple of days, but now I always age 2 days minimum and only change 50%. Even my Wilds last night got 1 1/2 days and they were upset for about 2 hours. Your water isn't my water, but like Phil said, `know your water`. And I just wouldn't start out at 90% daily un-aged water changes. People who do that know and prepare their water.

Great input and much appreciated. Your points I have somewhat addressed already going through the process. Obviously I don't have fish yet as the cycling isn't completed, but I did get a copy of the water report from my city prior to undertaking this adventure. The pH level parameter was listed as 7.7 - 7.8. My initial test out of the water (API test kit) showed the color to be somewhere in that range. I ordered a PH monitor and calibrated it......it has been showing a pretty consistent reading of 7.84 for the last few weeks with no fish, treated with Prime and minimal water change......as I stated before, I am cycling the media in separate containers. I will plan on testing the containers tonight after work to see what effect the ACE commercial grade ammonia has had on the PH level. Hence, the reason I was cycling in the separate containers. The advice regarding raising fish in a smaller tank to constrict movement, save calories and induce even and quicker growth is listed a few places on the internet, and I was specifically told this from a vendor on the phone last week from Washington State.....not sure if I will be breaking protocol by listing the business name but I will say his name was Mac. It didn't make sense to me either since the first thing that came to my mind was also "what about the discus in the wild?". At any rate, before I take on any raising of younger fish and breeding, I want to make sure I am set up with success with adult fish so I appreciate the feedback and experience you have all provided to this point.

Now, if you don't mind me asking a question, is there any truth to the statement that German bred discus are better suited for higher ph levels (like my tank) rather than Asian raised discus?

[JBurgo]

German bred Discus have a reputation for quality, Stendker is a trusted brand name. I keep Wilds and they're supposed to be at a low pH of around 6.0, some suggest lower than, and my water sits happily at around 6.8. Everything I've learned about pH is that you need to keep it `stable`. Stable is more important than higher or lower. Never add chemical pH adjustments, they weaken the stability of the water and induce crashes. Your pH is high, Cichlids would love it. People bring pH down naturally with Indian Almond leaves or Peat, which can be added to your sump and aging barrels, so that you don't knock your fish about with pH shock (gives you further research if you want). Whatever Discus strain you choose, the best pH advice is to keep it stable at what your water naturally sits at. Why don't you look through the sponsors here and find a breeder local to your area who has possibly been breeding fish in your own municipal water? If I was in the US I would at least check that possibility first.

[Ggz123]

Thx for the input JBurgo. I actually have checked in my area for breeders and/or vendors with not much luck (Kentucky). If anyone knows different please let me know.

[Phillydubs]

Greg,

Any and all of the discus breeders/importers here on the forum and in the sponsor section can ship direct to your door. Don't go crazy searching locally, go with the best and get the discus you want delivered to your front door.


Can't go wrong!

+1 to Jason's comments. I have never owned German discus myself (stendker) so I can't speak on which is better or if there is a difference in ph likeability. Keep it stable and they will be happy.

[JBurgo]

Honestly, you guys are absolutely spoiled for choice there in the US. So many options for quality fish, both wild and domestic. I had next to no choice for my intentions.

Just don't worry about price when buying quality fish. You're set-up and feeding, electricity, water and maintenance will far outweigh it in the end. Medications and losses will outweigh poor quality fish.