Blue pigeon grow outs

[modealings]

Hey all - just wanted to share a quick update about a grow out I've been doing.

I got 12 blue pigeon discus at approximately nickel size back in early November. I knew it was a risk getting them this small but I've been wanting to try a grow out at this size for my own education. Unfortunately I dont have any great pictures from when they first arrived - just the one below showing them in the bag before adding to their first tank.

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[modealings]

This video is after 4 months of 100% daily water changes and 2x daily BH mix feedings. There is 1 significantly stunted fish that I am continuing to keep again just to educate myself to see how it will end up (not leaving my fish room). (I originally ordered only 10 and was given 2 free.) Of the other 11, I would say 5 have shown very nice growth and are approximately 4in from nose to tail. The other 5-6 have grown to approximately 3 in length at this point. I'm looking forward to seeing how their growth will continue. Thanks for looking.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc1ulV_uwEQ

[brady]

Very nice. What size tank did you put them in?
What size tank are they in now?
When you say 100% w/c do you actually drain out all the water so that there flopping around for
a minute or so?
Thanks, Jay

[modealings]

Thanks Jay. I started them in a 20 gal. Moved to a 45 gal after a month or so, and have now been in the 75 gal (filed to about 50-60 gal mark) for the past 2 weeks.

I do the daily wc's to the point that they lay on their sides. Probably not exactly 100% but maybe in the 90-95% range.

[Clawhammer]

They look fantastic, great shape. Blue pigeons are a great strain, these are going to be stunning when full grown. Congrats!

[modealings]

Thanks Eric! Its been fun to watch them grow. Here's anther quick shot showing a little more color after eating.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLtmRAx8Cjg

[brady]

Thanks Jay. I started them in a 20 gal. Moved to a 45 gal after a month or so, and have now been in the 75 gal (filed to about 50-60 gal mark) for the past 2 weeks.

I do the daily wc's to the point that they lay on their sides. Probably not exactly 100% but maybe in the 90-95% range.

Thanks for the info. That's what I'm going to do.
What are they a cross of. They really look like awesome fish.
Can I ask where you got them?
Jay

[RogueDiscus]

Looking good Eric!

[Doc Andrew]

Nice shapes!

[modealings]

Sure - I got them from Mark at SomeFinsFishy, shipped from Chicago. I believe they are Stendker's as his pair originally came from Hans. I'm not sure of the original cross from Stendker though. They don't really show much peppering so I'm pretty happy with them overall.

[modealings]

6 month update.

So it's been about 6 months since I got these guys. I'm conitnuing with the 90-95% daily wc's in the 75 gallon. The biggest 3-4 have just crept over 5 inches, while a few others lag behind. Unfortunately I did lose one after we lost power for 2 days; just couldnt get him eating again.

I've also moved over to feeding Al's fdbw in the AM, discus chow in the afternoon, and BH mix in the evenings prior to wc's. Unfortunately I think this may be feeding too much given that the tank is significantly dirty and water starts to get cloudy by the end of the day. So I'm planning on cutting back to 2x/day feedings as before.

I also picked up some Fluval Aquasky LED's off CL so I've been experimenting with the different settings. Fish definitely seemed more skittish with the brighter lights before but have been coming around to tolerate the lower setting. Adding the blue LED's to the mix helps to bring out their blue fins as well.

(Apologies for the low quality cell phone video. Also not sure why I get the scrolling now with the LED's.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thCOUBbD2jA

[smsimcik]

Nice job growing them out. Large daily water changes are a pita but this is the age where it really starts to pay off.
There's a few really nice ones in that group. Won't be long and you should see some breeding behavior.

[Willie]

Great size, great shape, great color development - great job! Keeping discus can be so simple. Change a lot of water every day and keep them in a bare bottom tank!

Willie :thumbsup:

[two utes]

They have turned out very good Eric. You have done a great job raising them. Its very satisfying when you start with very small discus and grow them out like you have. I hear what you're saying about cutting back on their diet, but if i were you, keep up with the beef heart. going to freeze dried black worms is a good move as well in my opinion. If i were you, i would feed the beef heart 30 minutes or so before your daily water change, and the FDBW in the evening.
Lots of work, but very satisfying. Looking forward to further updates

[modealings]

Nice job growing them out. Large daily water changes are a pita but this is the age where it really starts to pay off.
There's a few really nice ones in that group. Won't be long and you should see some breeding behavior.

Thanks a lot. Ive actually started to enjoy the wc's - but I did take a few months haha.

[modealings]

Great size, great shape, great color development - great job! Keeping discus can be so simple. Change a lot of water every day and keep them in a bare bottom tank!

Willie :thumbsup:

Thanks Willie! Something satisfying about being able to get at all that waste in the bb tank. Also I usually just give the sponges a squeeze while the tanks draining - can't get much easier than that for filter maintenance!

[modealings]

They have turned out very good Eric. You have done a great job raising them. Its very satisfying when you start with very small discus and grow them out like you have. I hear what you're saying about cutting back on their diet, but if i were you, keep up with the beef heart. going to freeze dried black worms is a good move as well in my opinion. If i were you, i would feed the beef heart 30 minutes or so before your daily water change, and the FDBW in the evening.
Lots of work, but very satisfying. Looking forward to further updates

Hey thanks a lot. I've been following your grow out thread as well - very inspirational!

I actually do wc's in the evenings shortly after the BH feeding so they can be in clean water all night. I then feed the fdbw in the AM as it seems to be the least messy, followed by discus chow in the afternoons. That's why I was thinking my only option was to cut out the discus chow in afternoons - although they do go crazy for it.

[two utes]

Hey thanks a lot. I've been following your grow out thread as well - very inspirational!

I actually do wc's in the evenings shortly after the BH feeding so they can be in clean water all night. I then feed the fdbw in the AM as it seems to be the least messy, followed by discus chow in the afternoons. That's why I was thinking my only option was to cut out the discus chow in afternoons - although they do go crazy for it.

Thanks for the compliment.
Whatever you are doing is working very well. Keep it up :)

[modealings]

Well a couple of bumps along the way recently. Two of the twelve have lost their appetite and occasionally flashing for the past week or two. I've checked and cleaned the aging barrels for any bacteria build up but they appear pretty clean. My initial suspicion is for gill flukes. I treated all my tanks a few months ago when I noticed similar problems in one from this group and in a pair I have. After a 14 day course of praziquantel, the pair laid eggs and everyone seemed to be happier. Now the same symptoms seem to be popping up. Seems like a 14 day course may not have been enough.

109975
109976

[two utes]

Hi Eric. Just a small set back, but your group is looking great. Keep up the good work you are doing. What changes did you end up doing to their diet?

[modealings]

Hi Eric. Just a small set back, but your group is looking great. Keep up the good work you are doing. What changes did you end up doing to their diet?

Thanks Joe. Haha actually no big changes - couldnt bring myself to cut down to 2 meals when they are still showing growth month-to-month. Right now it's still FDBW in AM, discus chow or BH mix in afternoon, and BH mix in evenings.

[two utes]

Thanks Joe. Haha actually no big changes - couldnt bring myself to cut down to 2 meals when they are still showing growth month-to-month. Right now it's still FDBW in AM, discus chow or BH mix in afternoon, and BH mix in evenings.

I hear you about reducing their diet. They sure are growing out nicely, and you'll know when its the right time to cut back.

[modealings]

(Almost) 9 month update.

Things have been pretty uneventful. Eating & water changes. They all seem healthy except maybe 1 that hangs back. My guess is the largest are at 5.5in. WC's are averaging about 50% daily now. I cut back a bit after I noticed fish were more energetic after a 50% compared to 90%. May temperature shock? Water is aged and usually within 5 degrees of the tank.

Feeds continue to be BH mix 2 times daily and Al's FDBW once daily. Video shows their preferred meal... (again, apologies for the scrolling from LED's).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHZJFtApbhY

[modealings]

111304111305111306

[Phillydubs]

Really nice. You are doing a great job

[Filip]

Great looking pigeons Eric.
I wonder if your discus loose appetite during the Prazi treatment ?
I was never able to administer it more than a couple of days because of their partial or complete loss of appetite during the treat . Once I change new untreated water they eat well again .

[modealings]

Great looking pigeons Eric.
I wonder if your discus loose appetite during the Prazi treatment ?
I was never able to administer it more than a couple of days because of their partial or complete loss of appetite during the treat . Once I change new untreated water they eat well again .

Yea I did notice a decrease in appetite after 10 days or so of treatment awhile ago. I had to cut the treatment short as well. Fortunately haven't needed to retreat in the past 2 months and everything seems okay.

[Davidzil]

Great post, I think most go trough similar issues with their grow-outs

[hayhar27]

Wow man, those fish are gorgeous. Nice job

[modealings]

Thanks all. The grow out process has had its trials and tribulations so I'm happy to report no excitement in the past 2 months. Been really enjoyable to watch them grow. Now to beef them up...

[abijitr]

This is truly inspiring and motivating to me. I have started a tank with juvi's and looking forward for their growth ... have done it with African's in the past and looking forward for my discus to grow ... hoping it would be as incredible as yours!

I have a questions for you ... during their growth, when did you start noticing them rounding with proper eye-to-body ratio? I am just curious to know that and would like to set some milestones and track it!

[AquaWoman]

Nice job! I have three Pigeons I grew out in a planted tank and after seeing yours I'm wondering if mine are Blue Pigeons. Is it only the blue in the halos that determine this? 111552

Here's one.

[modealings]

This is truly inspiring and motivating to me. I have started a tank with juvi's and looking forward for their growth ... have done it with African's in the past and looking forward for my discus to grow ... hoping it would be as incredible as yours!

I have a questions for you ... during their growth, when did you start noticing them rounding with proper eye-to-body ratio? I am just curious to know that and would like to set some milestones and track it!

Hi Abi - I wish I had kept a more detailed record of these guys from the start. I can't say exactly. Their growth did seem to be the most noticeable between 1 and 5 months. I was keeping them in a smaller (20-29 gallon) tank, feeding beefheart 2-3x/daily, and doing 100% daily wc's - their growth really took off then.

I think this forum has a few growth charts showing expected milestones over the course of the year. Or you could ask someone more experienced than myself. Good idea to keep a better log than I did so you can look back in a few months!

[modealings]

Nice job! I have three Pigeons I grew out in a planted tank and after seeing yours I'm wondering if mine are Blue Pigeons. Is it only the blue in the halos that determine this? 111552

Here's one.

Hi - they certainly do look similar. I'm not an expert on discus genetics so I cant tell you if there is another way to determine this. I just bought these as blue pigeons and they do seem to have the same blue-ish halo.

[Ryan925]

Nice job! I have three Pigeons I grew out in a planted tank and after seeing yours I'm wondering if mine are Blue Pigeons. Is it only the blue in the halos that determine this? 111552

Here's one.

Not sure what makes them blue pigeons. It's a specific trait that hans breeds to set them apart. Think it's more white based with striations. My red checkerboard shows a lot of blue in the fins also so don't think it's that

[abijitr]

Hi Abi - I wish I had kept a more detailed record of these guys from the start. I can't say exactly. Their growth did seem to be the most noticeable between 1 and 5 months. I was keeping them in a smaller (20-29 gallon) tank, feeding beefheart 2-3x/daily, and doing 100% daily wc's - their growth really took off then.

I think this forum has a few growth charts showing expected milestones over the course of the year. Or you could ask someone more experienced than myself. Good idea to keep a better log than I did so you can look back in a few months!

Thanks!

[Filip]

@ Abi . The best way to keep track of their milestones is to measure them nose to tail every month and comparing the records with the chart of their usual growth .
Most optimistic growth rate would be an inch a month until they reach 5" mark in 5 months , and after that age the growth should slow down a bit .

@ Aquawoman. Pigeon blood striations and colours differs greatly between one PB and Other . So yours can be blue PB and yet look quite different from the ones from modealings photos.

@Ryan . I think that Hans is only an importer of German Stenker discus fish and this Blue PB is a name of this particular Stendker PB strain.
I wonder too if the blue halo was the main distinguishing feature that made Stendker separate them from his others PB strains .

[Ryan925]

@ Abi . The best way to keep track of their milestones is to measure them nose to tail every month and comparing the records with the chart of their usual growth .
Most optimistic growth rate would be an inch a month until they reach 5" mark in 5 months , and after that age the growth should slow down a bit .

@ Aquawoman. Pigeon blood striations and colours differs greatly between one PB and Other . So yours can be blue PB and yet look quite different from the ones from modealings photos.

@Ryan . I think that Hans is only an importer of German Stenker discus fish and this Blue PB is a name of this particular Stendker PB strain.
I wonder too if the blue halo was the main distinguishing feature that made Stendker separate them from his others PB strains .

You are right Filip Stendker would obviously be the one to create an name the strains

[AquaWoman]

Interesting! Thanks for the info. When I bought these I was told they were from Hans so maybe they are after all. They certainly are a hardy strain.

[abijitr]

Thanks Filip! That's a good idea, it's tough to pull them out though and I take so much time that they get stressed out.

[modealings]

Here is another video. I've been trying to get rid of those scrolling bars to get a bit more detail.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV3x0mcgFy0

[ssevasta]

Idk if it's just me but don't the gill plates look really short and the dorsal fins look strange on a few of those? Other than that which is out of your control you did a great job growing them out.

[Brotoss]

Great looking pigeons Eric.
I wonder if your discus loose appetite during the Prazi treatment ?
I was never able to administer it more than a couple of days because of their partial or complete loss of appetite during the treat . Once I change new untreated water they eat well again .

I noticed the same with mine as well. They loose all interest in food and only peck at food but after a water change they eat normally in a few hours.

[modealings]

Idk if it's just me but don't the gill plates look really short and the dorsal fins look strange on a few of those? Other than that which is out of your control you did a great job growing them out.

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

[ssevasta]

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

Well you definitely obtained your goal and it's quite the accomplishment. I would love to see what you can do with some high grade fish to start with. Maybe next time buy them at 3 inches to ensure that they're all perfect. Chicago Discus has had some awesome sales lately.

[abijitr]

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

[modealings]

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

Well I don't have a lot of experience culling fish but here are some reasons I can think of for culling.

1. A lot of effort goes into raising discus. If you start with discus that are already deformed and/or have genetic flaws, you're doing a lot of work without the possibility of achieving the best result.

2. Deformed/stunted fish are likely more susceptible to opportunistic disease. While they might not always get sick, it's easier for them to become infected, harbor a proliferating pathogen, and then eventually infect the rest of your tank. Hexamita really comes to mind here. While stronger fish can keep it at bay, a runt's immune system may be overrun.

3. Breeding stunted fish is probably just poor form. Healthy discus have healthy offspring. Breeding and distributing stunted fish or fish with genetic defects probably just pollutes the pool. There is probably a distinction here between a stunted fish secondary to environmental factors and a genetic deformity. (I.e., could a stunted fish without genetic deformity produce healthy offspring with good potential?)

Those are the three big reasons I can think of. I'm sure others could contribute more. In my mind there isn't any harm to raising a stunted fish for your own interest if you accept the risks but probably distributing them is where it gets murky. Hope that helps!

[abijitr]

Well I don't have a lot of experience culling fish but here are some reasons I can think of for culling.

1. A lot of effort goes into raising discus. If you start with discus that are already deformed and/or have genetic flaws, you're doing a lot of work without the possibility of achieving the best result.

2. Deformed/stunted fish are likely more susceptible to opportunistic disease. While they might not always get sick, it's easier for them to become infected, harbor a proliferating pathogen, and then eventually infect the rest of your tank. Hexamita really comes to mind here. While stronger fish can keep it at bay, a runt's immune system may be overrun.

3. Breeding stunted fish is probably just poor form. Healthy discus have healthy offspring. Breeding and distributing stunted fish or fish with genetic defects probably just pollutes the pool. There is probably a distinction here between a stunted fish secondary to environmental factors and a genetic deformity. (I.e., could a stunted fish without genetic deformity produce healthy offspring with good potential?)

Those are the three big reasons I can think of. I'm sure others could contribute more. In my mind there isn't any harm to raising a stunted fish for your own interest if you accept the risks but probably distributing them is where it gets murky. Hope that helps!

Thanks ... yes, very helpful! I am not much worried about the looks but #2 is what bothers me.

[Ryan925]

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

[adrian31@outlook.com]

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

Great job on the growout. RE: Flared Gills: do you know what might have caused this?

[modealings]

Great job on the growout. RE: Flared Gills: do you know what might have caused this?

Really not sure. I've heard of the short gill plate deformity in discus fry but not the flared gills. I've read that arowana can get flared gills if the current isn't strong enough but I doubt that's the problem with discus.

[modealings]

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

Makes sense too. I guess because mine are all from the same batch I hadn't thought of that.

[abijitr]

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

From what size are you growing out Ryan? Mine were 2 inches when I got and the 2 in question are about same size after 2+months. Others have doubled in size.

[adrian31@outlook.com]

Really not sure. I've heard of the short gill plate deformity in discus fry but not the flared gills. I've read that arowana can get flared gills if the current isn't strong enough but I doubt that's the problem with discus.

In the four orders of Discus I purchased over the past year, in three of those orders each had one Discus with flared gills. These were all from reputable suppliers/breeders so I wonder what causes this and how common it is.

[modealings]

10 month update:

I was going to wait until a year but I took a few out today to measure and thought Id share where they are at. I measured the 3 largest and of course the runt to keep things fair. If anyone has any input on what causes the gill plate and side fin deformities I'd be very interested. My water is >400 TDS and I feed a beefheart mix with a multivitamin so Im doubtful that its a mineral deficiency.

Here is what I consider to be the best of the bunch:
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Notice the slightly short gill plate and bent side fin on this one. Overall though I think it has a pretty nice shape.
112537

Notice the much shorter gill plate and again a bend side fin.
112538

And the runt. Has a deformed dorsal fin and significantly short gill plate on the other side. However I will say the overall body shape isnt as horrible as I was suspecting.
112536

And a quick full tank shot. I added some wisteria a month or so ago. Used the Alum sterilization method. No issues so far and the plant does seem to be growing.
112539

(If a mod wouldnt mind rotating the pictures when they have a chance it might save everyone's necks. This gets me every time...)

[Phillydubs]

Wow!!! I opened this thread and saw those measly little guys in the bags... then l cliked the last page to see what was new because I have checked this thread often and just WOW

Blows me away each time to think those little buggers turned into this. Even with all the deformities that you point out that I think most or the casual keeper would not see, you still did an awesome job here and they are gorgeous fish, well done!

[modealings]

Wow!!! I opened this thread and saw those measly little guys in the bags... then l cliked the last page to see what was new because I have checked this thread often and just WOW

Blows me away each time to think those little buggers turned into this. Even with all the deformities that you point out that I think most or the casual keeper would not see, you still did an awesome job here and they are gorgeous fish, well done!

Thanks! Yea it's been a lot of fun to watch them grow.

[Filip]

Great progression Eric. Discus look very good in shape size and colour .Too bad some of them have deformities .
I have the same age 9-10 month growouts in a BB with daily WCs and they got to similar size as yours.
I wonder what have you done with your suspected gill flukes month or two ago ? Did you resolve them and how ?
I'm dealing with similar symptoms right now and hoping mine will get out of this trouble .

[modealings]

Great progression Eric. Discus look very good in shape size and colour .Too bad some of them have deformities .
I have the same age 9-10 month growouts in a BB with daily WCs and they got to similar size as yours.
I wonder what have you done with your suspected gill flukes month or two ago ? Did you resolve them and how ?
I'm dealing with similar symptoms right now and hoping mine will get out of this trouble .

Hi Filip - sorry to hear about your struggles. I just ended up doing a few treatments w/ potassium permanganate and that seemed to clear things up. I did have one die so I'm down to 10. I haven't noticed the scratching in the past few months though. I'm also cleaning my aging barrels more regularly - scratching could have just been from ammonia build up there too I guess. Good luck - from your thread it seems like you're on the right track!