Am i ready to take the plunge?

[MaryStephens]

Hello... I am new to the discus hobby and have been doing a lot research. I was hoping I could get some input from the more experienced here on whether my tank is ready for discus.

I have a 55 gallon tank (I don't have room to go larger) running and cycled. I have a Eheim professional 4 canister filter, fluval aqua clear filter, 2 eheim heaters & eheim air pump with 2 bubblers.

My water parameter are as follows: PH - 7.2 ; Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate - 0 ; KH - 3 ; GH - 4

My tank is bare bottom with 2 pieces of congo wood, some rocks and plants planted in glass jars with pool filter sand. I have 5 lemon tetras, 10 neon tetras (I know these could become a snack) and 2 cory cats.

I'm hoping to get 5 - 4" discus from DiscusHans in a couple of months.

All opinions & suggestions welcomed! Thank you!

[MaryStephens]

I would really appreciate some responses.

[two utes]

Sounds like you are good to go Mary Beth.

Good luck with your new venture.

[Ryan925]

Sounds good to me too

[Neptune]

You say your nitrates are at zero, you should have some nitrates if your tank is cycled. How did you cycle it and how long?

[DatDiscusDude]

Seems like you are off to a good start.

What temp are you keeping things at? What are your plans for water changes once they come in? If you can push it go the extra inch and get 5".

[MaryStephens]

Thank you for the responses.
My water temp is about 84-86.
I plan on doing water changes maybe 3-4x a week.

I used microlobe to start cycling and dose about 1x week. It's been going probably 3 weeks. I'm not planning to get the discus until August; first, i want the tank to be good and cycled and second, I have multiple trips planned in the next couple of months and want to wait till after those.

[MaryStephens]

thanks so much!

[discuspaul]

You say your nitrates are at zero, you should have some nitrates if your tank is cycled. How did you cycle it and how long?

Neptune has made a good point - with no nitrates present, and only 3 weeks since the tank was set up, I don't think you are cycled yet, Mary Beth.
Has your cycling strictly relied on the fish that you have in the tank to produce ammonia ? When did you put them in since you set up the tank - seems like it was just recently, with no ammonia showing up yet ?

[LizStreithorst]

Neptune is right. If the nitrate is 0 the tank is not cycled.

That being said, only you know if you are ready to take the plunge. You'll dive in when you are ready to.

[gluedandscrewed]

again , i dont understand the preoccupation with cycling the tank, i have 9 discus that went into the tank a day after i filled it with water,that was 4 months ago, have not had any sort of a problem with the fish, as a matter of fact i have 7 more being delivered this morning that will go into a grow out tank that was filled with water yesterday, so what is the deal with wasting weeks of time to cycle the tank just to change the water every day anyways? splain it to me lucy

P.S. i know i'm ruffing some feathers but it just doesn,t make sense, and as judge judy says " if it dont make sense, it isnt true"

[DatDiscusDude]

No one says you are wrong... I believe Liz herself is a fan of the quick start up as I have read in other posts...

There is just a big risk for those who don't realize how much daily WC can be! You don't want to miss a day or mess something up in an un-cycled tank.

I personally have never done it but I hear many who have!

[Neptune]

again , i dont understand the preoccupation with cycling the tank, i have 9 discus that went into the tank a day after i filled it with water,that was 4 months ago, have not had any sort of a problem with the fish, as a matter of fact i have 7 more being delivered this morning that will go into a grow out tank that was filled with water yesterday, so what is the deal with wasting weeks of time to cycle the tank just to change the water every day anyways? splain it to me lucy

P.S. i know i'm ruffing some feathers but it just doesn,t make sense, and as judge judy says " if it dont make sense, it isnt true"
Now I'm confused between GluedandScrewed and the OP?????

But in terms of 0 nitrates in a "cycled tank"...Just going to take a shot here....you are using the API Master test kit????

[Ryan925]

Now I'm confused between GluedandScrewed and the OP?????

But in terms of 0 nitrates in a "cycled tank"...Just going to take a shot here....you are using the API Master test kit????

That would be my guess. I often see posts stating 0 nitrate in a well established tank. I would have to believe this has to relate to how the test is performed.

[gluedandscrewed]

just left them alone for 5 days while camping,, normal feeding the day before with normal, about 30% water change,that was Wednesday, just a 30% WC thursday morning before leaving, nothing friday, saturday had a neighbor feed them once, nothing sunday,,got back monday, last monday, evening with absolutely no ill effects or sign of stress in the fish...think this discus keeping has been made out to be a lot more complicated than it has to be, the only chemical parameter i check is the ph, dont own any other test kit, only filter the water for particulates, nothing else...

[bluelagoon]

just left them alone for 5 days while camping,, normal feeding the day before with normal, about 30% water change,that was Wednesday, just a 30% WC thursday morning before leaving, nothing friday, saturday had a neighbor feed them once, nothing sunday,,got back monday, last monday, evening with absolutely no ill effects or sign of stress in the fish...think this discus keeping has been made out to be a lot more complicated than it has to be, the only chemical parameter i check is the ph, dont own any other test kit, only filter the water for particulates, nothing else...

Your tank is/was cycled or should be by now.You posted that it was set up 4 months ago.That makes since that you can go a few days without a WC.

[gluedandscrewed]

thats my point blue, its running fine without the agony of waiting, adding this or that, checking this or that, have another tank thats going the same way as soon as this morning's arrivals grow a little,,

[discuspaul]

thats my point blue, its running fine without the agony of waiting, adding this or that, checking this or that, have another tank thats going the same way as soon as this morning's arrivals grow a little,,

Your having done large daily wcs from the outset and for a lengthy period worked just fine while the tank cycled.

For your next batch though, do the same thing & don't neglect the large daily wcs, at least for a month or more, or 'the ammonia bug' will surface and 'bite' your new discus.

There's no getting around it - a discus tank needs to be cycled one way or another, for there's no escaping the damage that will occur as the ammonia builds-up if large daily wcs aren't done.

[Neptune]

thats my point blue, its running fine without the agony of waiting, adding this or that, checking this or that, have another tank thats going the same way as soon as this morning's arrivals grow a little,,
Don't mean to start a pissing match but a new person taking the plunge wants to know if the tank is ready.
It is stated that there is a population of fish in the tank already and all is going well with them.
BUT she states she has zero nitrates.
This means one of two things:
1. Tank is not cycled
2. erroneous test readings.

To add posts or take the topic to a water testing regiment is a bit confusing. If I was cycling a new tank I would/do routinely test the water to see if the tank has cycled, otherwise you are guessing and taking an unnecessary risk.

Now back on topic...if the OP has a healthy fish population and is getting zero nitrates...they probably are getting an erroneous reading.

AND the API nitrate test kit is NOTORIOUS for giving a zero reading.

OP if you are using the API test kit, SHAKE THE REAGENT BOTTLES for a FULL 30 seconds and do a test. Get back to us!

[MaryStephens]

I do have an API test kit. I have also been using "micro-lobe" which if what i was told is correct puts in both beneficial bacteria (don't know the names), even the one that feeds on the ammonia.

[MaryStephens]

The fish went in about 1 week after i got it running. There has been no ammonia since day one.

[MaryStephens]

I will let you know my readings tomorrow. Thanks.

[Neptune]

I will let you know my readings tomorrow. Thanks.

Shake the bottles for 30 seconds before testing! I bet you get a nitrate reading!

[gluedandscrewed]

i dont profess to be a chemist or as much as anyone else here about discus, however, do have a tendency to play the devils advocate at times,,,,just read a post by someone with a cycled tank doing 100% water changes daily, does that make sense? why would you even bother with a filter? I'll admit i have become somewhat anal about keeping the tank clean, dont have to work for a meal anymore so I'm here to siphon the bottom 2-3 times daily but only do 30% water change every other day,,besides checking the ph I dont do any other water test, my water comes straight from the well with some baking soda to raise the ph of the water which has become very acidic ,, thats the extent of my water treatment
Your having done large daily wcs from the outset and for a lengthy period worked just fine while the tank cycled.

For your next batch though, do the same thing & don't neglect the large daily wcs, at least for a month or more, or 'the ammonia bug' will surface and 'bite' your new discus.

There's no getting around it - a discus tank needs to be cycled one way or another, for there's no escaping the damage that will occur as the ammonia builds-up if large daily wcs aren't done.

[Ryan925]

i dont profess to be a chemist or as much as anyone else here about discus, however, do have a tendency to play the devils advocate at times,,,,just read a post by someone with a cycled tank doing 100% water changes daily, does that make sense? why would you even bother with a filter? I'll admit i have become somewhat anal about keeping the tank clean, dont have to work for a meal anymore so I'm here to siphon the bottom 2-3 times daily but only do 30% water change every other day,,besides checking the ph I dont do any other water test, my water comes straight from the well with some baking soda to raise the ph of the water which has become very acidic ,, thats the extent of my water treatment

I think the OPs original intent is getting lost here and that's unfair to her

If you would like start a discussion on how you feel filtration and wc is not necessary then I would urge you to start your own thread.

[adrian31@outlook.com]

again , i dont understand the preoccupation with cycling the tank, i have 9 discus that went into the tank a day after i filled it with water,that was 4 months ago, have not had any sort of a problem with the fish, as a matter of fact i have 7 more being delivered this morning that will go into a grow out tank that was filled with water yesterday, so what is the deal with wasting weeks of time to cycle the tank just to change the water every day anyways? splain it to me lucy

P.S. i know i'm ruffing some feathers but it just doesn,t make sense, and as judge judy says " if it dont make sense, it isnt true"

I definitely get you, I started both my Discus tanks a day after I filled them. Of course I change alot of water 60%-80% and have never missed a day, so never had a problem. One supplier told me he 'never cycles' his tanks, but does huge daily WC and enough Prime to remove all ammonia daily. So I really wonder how large a part beneficial bacteria really plays in a 'well-cleaned' Discus tank, considering the need to also keep filters/media 'clean' as well.

[gluedandscrewed]

the response to the OP, ryan, is that everything she is concerned about and everything she is doing is a unnecessary waste of time and money and while she waits weeks for her tank to cycle she could be enjoying her fish instead, and with no guarantee that after establishing the chemical equilibrium of a cycled tank and than changing one leg of the equation, by daily water change, its not all going to go whacky anyway...

[Ryan925]

the response to the OP, ryan, is that everything she is concerned about and everything she is doing is a unnecessary waste of time and money and while she waits weeks for her tank to cycle she could be enjoying her fish instead, and with no guarantee that after establishing the chemical equilibrium of a cycled tank and than changing one leg of the equation, by daily water change, its not all going to go whacky anyway...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. All I am saying is I see this turning into an argument about what you feel is adequate tank husbandry and your belief or disbelief of the benefits of wc. What I will say is I don't feel recommending 30% every other day to a new discus keeper is good advice imo.

[gluedandscrewed]

not an argument ryan, the OP asked for an opinion, and my advice to a new discus keeper,as myself, would be to disregard most of what she reads and keep it as simple as possible, food and clean water is all any fish needs

[Second Hand Pat]

Chris, lets remember that this is a new member seeking information that she is doing things right. Your way works for you and you have the time to be there if something goes wrong. However many folks have families, jobs and other obligations so they must find their own way to be successful with discus. Personally I like the flexibility a cycled filter gives me (and yes I am retired). Also the amount and frequency of water changes depends on a couple factors, bio-load in the tank, age of the fish (smaller fish require large, frequent water changes to grow well), etc.
Pat

[Ryan925]

not an argument ryan, the OP asked for an opinion, and my advice to a new discus keeper,as myself, would be to disregard most of what she reads and keep it as simple as possible, food and clean water is all any fish needs

I am new to discus as well and have had success over the passed year. For someone getting started with discus I would hope that they are provided the best advice for success.

It is known that fish can be put into a tank that is not cycled as long as there is the understanding that large daily wcs are required until the filter is established. With that said this could easily end in disaster if just one wc is missed which is why cycling a tank is usually recommended, although not a requirement

I must say that I am not one who believes in 150%-200% wc daily. I have to believe that at some point there is diminishing return but where is that point, 80%? 90%? 100%? Obviously it's known that the more wc the better with the recommendation being 50% daily with young fish.

I would partially agree in that all info out there should not be taken as gospel but the suggestion to disregard "most" is not sound advice. There is a reason this info is out there. It is what has been found to work over decades of this hobby. No I am not a discus purest and I don't believe in the overboard approach.

If you have found something that works for you that's great and I look forward to seeing your results the future.

To the OP I would suggest continue to do your research while you prepare for your fish. Do things right from the start and you will save yourself time, stress and headaches.

[Second Hand Pat]

To add to Ryan's post; you have to understand the rules in order to break them so best to start with the larger water changes, BB tank etc over a six month period. If the fish have grown and look good then start to experiment a bit. The true measure of a discus keeper is how the fish look over time.
Pat

[gluedandscrewed]

ditto to both ryan and pat, just making the point that after 40 yrs of various fish keeping and many failed attempts at discus, success finally achieved by going simple.

[Ryan925]

ditto to both ryan and pat, just making the point that after 40 yrs of various fish keeping and many failed attempts at discus, success finally achieved by going simple.

Glad to hear it.

I think it's always important to remember that a forum is a discussion and no offense intended. There many ways to ski a cat. Finding what works for each individual situation is key.

[MaryStephens]

Hello everyone again. I appreciate all the comments, because I can learn from all of them in one way or another.

I just finished testing the tank water and I followed all API instructions. My ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are still at 0. ???????

However my PH went up from 7.2 to a 7.4... and the odd part is my aged water is at a PH of 6.4; everything I have in the tank is supposed to be PH neutral so I don't know what is going on there( i actually changed the substrate in the glass jars to PFS this past weekend because I thought maybe that was the cause of increased PH), but it went the opposite direction. It was at 7.2 for the last 2+ weeks. My KH is 3 and my GH is 4.

[MaryStephens]

Any other insight??

[Ryan925]

Have you checked expiration on your bottles?

7.4 is not a bad ph but that's a huge difference from your aged water.

Can you remind us of everything in the tank, filter etc

[MaryStephens]

Expiration dates are good.

My tank currently has 2 pieces of congo wood, river pebbles, other rock I can't remember the name of (LPS said it was PH neutral), variety of ferns planted in jars with PFS, 10 neon tetra and 5 lemon tetra.

I have an eheim prof. 4 canister filter, 2 eheim heaters, eheim air pump w/ 2 bubble discs & temporary fluval aqua clear filter ( will be used with quarantine tank once I get the discus)
}

[DJW]

Hello everyone again. I appreciate all the comments, because I can learn from all of them in one way or another.

I just finished testing the tank water and I followed all API instructions. My ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are still at 0. ???????

However my PH went up from 7.2 to a 7.4... and the odd part is my aged water is at a PH of 6.4; everything I have in the tank is supposed to be PH neutral so I don't know what is going on there( i actually changed the substrate in the glass jars to PFS this past weekend because I thought maybe that was the cause of increased PH), but it went the opposite direction. It was at 7.2 for the last 2+ weeks. My KH is 3 and my GH is 4.

You might check the pH of the aged water again. With KH 3, aged water should have a pH around 7.3 more or less, so its probably fine. It isn't possible to have both KH 3 and pH 6.4 at the same time in aged water. There would have to be injected CO2, or maybe the water wasn't aged with aeration or wasn't aged long enough.

Its hard to tell what is happening with the cycle. Unless you have been changing lots of water or have enough plants to be consuming the nitrate, there should be something other than zeros showing up in your tests.

[MaryStephens]

The aged water has aeration and a heater and has been aged for several days. I will check it again.

The tank has about 7 ferns and water changes have been just weekly right now.

[MaryStephens]

I tested again with same PH results... aged water 6.4 & tank water is 7.4. Same 0's for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
KH reading... Test instructions state add a drop until you see bright yellow... if i go with the result when it turns yellow (whether bright or not), aged water KH is 1 and tank water KH is 3.

I don't know what else to do. Everyone says I should have a nitrate reading, I'm doing the test exactly as I'm supposed to do. And the PH difference is still baffling me.

Could my water barrel have something to do with the low PH reading?

[DJW]

Now the water is starting to make more sense. The tap water has close to no buffer at all. The KH is less than 1 - the first drop goes past it.

It looks like something in the tank is dissolving carbonate into the water, most likely the pebbles or rock. One way to check is to put one or the other in a bowl of aged tap water and see if it raises the pH. Or put a drop of acid on the rock and see if it fizzes or makes small bubbles. Muriatic acid works the best but handle with care. Vinegar is a little too weak. Nitrate test bottle No. 1 is a fairly strong acid.

Whats the GH of the tap water? Chances are it is going up in the tank too.

Either pH is good, 6.4 or 7.4, its just a big difference to have between the ageing barrel and the tank and when you do water changes bigger than 50% there will be a fast drop in the pH of the tank which after time can take a toll on the fish... *unless it took a week for the pH to go up that much.

How often have you been changing water? With discus you will usually be changing water much more often and if it takes several days or a week for the pH to go up in a tank from whatever rock is dissolving, leaving some or all of the carbonate rock there might be a convenient way to buffer the water while the more frequent WCs keep the pH stable. So the gradual release of KH combined with the expected increase in water changes could work out just right.

The nice thing about fishless cycling is that people usually get a group of discus all at once and with fishless cycling you can build the strength of the filter up to handle the entire bioload on the first day. 15 tetras and 2 corys is a small bioload compared to 5 discus plus the existing fish, so whether the filter is cycled or not the sudden increase of ammonia from adding group of discus will overwhelm the capacity of the filter for a while. You will want to do large daily water changes while the filter catches up. Another way is to move the tetras & corys to the tank intended as the quarantine tank and feed ammonia to the main tank and build up the filter there. That way the discus could go directly into the main tank.

[ConnorD]

Good luck :)
Will you post some picks of the set up when they are in?

[MaryStephens]

I will test the rocks today and see what I find. Once I get the discus I plan on doing 50% water change 3x a week. I plan on getting them from Chicago Discus and there suggestion was at least 2x a week.

I also did some other testing today with and without my water conditioner (aquasafe). I read that it can increase PH. Not sure if that's true, but my tap water tested at 7.0 PH, Tap water w/ aqua safe 7.4 PH, tank water w/ aqua safe 7.4 PH & aged water w/ aqua safe 6.6/6.8.

Next time I do a water change I'm going to test PH from tank before and after water change and see what that says.

Connor D... yes I will post pictures when i get the discus, but it won't be until late summer.

[MaryStephens]

Just tested the rocks... one type fizzled like crazy!! I guess that gives us the answer. LPS said it was PH neutral, hahah.

Chicago discus water PH is a 7.2... so what if I put a couple of the same rock in the aged water barrel to bring it closer to the same PH reading?

[LizStreithorst]

You figured it out! I quit commenting because your readings were over my head. Congratulations to you and congratulations to the smart people on simply who figured it out.

It might be a good idea to add some of the rock or some crushed coral to your aging barrel, but I don't know for sure because I've never had water like yours. Luckily, you're in good hands here on Simply.

[Filip]

Just tested the rocks... one type fizzled like crazy!! I guess that gives us the answer. LPS said it was PH neutral, hahah.

Chicago discus water PH is a 7.2... so what if I put a couple of the same rock in the aged water barrel to bring it closer to the same PH reading?

The safest bet IMHO would be to ditch those rock , or replace them with driftwood or other pH neutral rocks .
That way you will have complete control and stability over your PH .

[MaryStephens]

The reasoning behind leaving the rock in place is because the discus I'm getting are coming from the higher PH range. And wouldn't putting the same rock in my aged water barrel keep the PH where my tank PH is?

[MaryStephens]

I've talked with the people at Chicago Discus and they recommended the same, take out the rock. So they are coming out of the tank. It's just irritating when you buy something based upon a recommendation of the store employees and they are wrong.
I will be testing my water after they are out and hopefully I get some matching readings.

[Ryan925]

I've talked with the people at Chicago Discus and they recommended the same, take out the rock. So they are coming out of the tank. It's just irritating when you buy something based upon a recommendation of the store employees and they are wrong.
I will be testing my water after they are out and hopefully I get some matching readings.

Unfortunate lesson but lesson learned. LFS experts are not always "experts" fortunately you learned before you got the fish so no harm done

[MaryStephens]

Yes indeed. My tank finally has its first reading, .25 ammonia.