Anyone have a diabetic Cat or Dog?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
One of our cats became Diabetic a few months ago and though we can manage his levels well enough when we are home, vacations are turning out to be a real challenge. Our Cat, Mat, gets 2 units of insulin every 12 hours. He was always an eater so he is food obsessed. I taught my mom how to give him his shots, and thats all well and fine... but he is used to multiple small feedings a day... We went camping this weekend and tried feeding two times a daty when he got his shots.... Sunday night while we were camping my Mom called hysterical that Mat was dead.:( Found him under a bed. We cut the camping trip short and came home expecting the worst... only to find the PITA sitting theres purring. :) Best we can tell is he went into insulin shock from the food and stress of us not being there. I am thinking we will try a food dish with timer to spread out the meals..

Just finding foods a diabetic cat can eat is tough... most of whats out there is loaded with rice, sweet potatoes etc , all stuff that a should not be in any cats food, yet is.


So I thought I would ask you all, how do you deal with your Diabetic cat or Dog, especially when you are on a trip.

al

[Disgirl]

Don't know if it would help Al, but I have a friend who fed her diabetic cat nothing but chicken she cooked herself. The cat did fine. Easy and fairly cheap.
Barb

[brewmaster15]

Don't know if it would help Al, but I have a friend who fed her diabetic cat nothing but chicken she cooked herself. The cat did fine. Easy and fairly cheap.
Barb

Hi Barb,
I do that partially.. Chicken mostly but he loves steak (champagne tastes I guess) Theres a vet that writes a bunch of articles on line on nutrition of diabetic cats... she has a recipe that balanced nutritionally. She also recommend raw ground rabbit.

al

[smsimcik]

Hi Al,
Sorry you're having to deal with a diabetic cat. I can tell you from my veterinary experience, cats are the hardest of all animal species to regulate. Also harder than humans from my understanding of human diabetes.

The key is to keep them eating regular meals at least 2-3 times/day if they are getting twice daily insulin. They don't need multiple small meals during the day. Depending on which insulin you're using, the insulin will take peak affect about 5-8 hrs after you inject. That's when their blood glucose will drop too low if they have not been eating well during the day. If they miss even one meal, I usually tell my clients to skip the next insulin dose to avoid risking the blood glucose dropping too low. Once they eat again, you can resume the insulin.

I will also tell you that even when everything is going well and you think you have the insulin and diet working right, cats will still have glucose fluctuations that will require the insulin dose to be readjusted. It's just part of treating diabetic cats. Diabetic dogs, ferrets, and horses are all easier than cats to regulate in my experience. That's why most vets treating diabetic cats want you to come back fairly often for rechecks. They want to head off any problem early.

As far as diets, there are several prescription diets for diabetic cats you can buy from your vet. They help to maintain a more even blood sugar level during the day. They are higher in meat protein and lower in carbs. There are also homemade diets you can use but you need to get a recipe designed specifically for diabetic cats.

I'm not sure which vet online you were referring to but if is Deborah Greco from Purina Animal Health, she is the countries' foremost authority on diabetic cat nutrition. I've been to several of her seminars over the years. Any advice she gives on what to feed a diabetic cat is going to be spot on. She may have a homemade recipe somewhere online but I haven't looked lately. Hopefully, it's the one you already have.

HTH

[Ryan925]

Hi Barb,
I do that partially.. Chicken mostly but he loves steak (champagne tastes I guess) Theres a vet that writes a bunch of articles on line on nutrition of diabetic cats... she has a recipe that balanced nutritionally. She also recommend raw ground rabbit.

al

There are also raw diets that consist of freeze dried food. Much healthier than most of the commercial foods but a bit pricey. Well for a cat may not be too bad

[brewmaster15]

Hi Al,
Sorry you're having to deal with a diabetic cat. I can tell you from my veterinary experience, cats are the hardest of all animal species to regulate. Also harder than humans from my understanding of human diabetes.

The key is to keep them eating regular meals at least 2-3 times/day if they are getting twice daily insulin. They don't need multiple small meals during the day. Depending on which insulin you're using, the insulin will take peak affect about 5-8 hrs after you inject. That's when their blood glucose will drop too low if they have not been eating well during the day. If they miss even one meal, I usually tell my clients to skip the next insulin dose to avoid risking the blood glucose dropping too low. Once they eat again, you can resume the insulin.

I will also tell you that even when everything is going well and you think you have the insulin and diet working right, cats will still have glucose fluctuations that will require the insulin dose to be readjusted. It's just part of treating diabetic cats. Diabetic dogs, ferrets, and horses are all easier than cats to regulate in my experience. That's why most vets treating diabetic cats want you to come back fairly often for rechecks. They want to head off any problem early.

As far as diets, there are several prescription diets for diabetic cats you can buy from your vet. They help to maintain a more even blood sugar level during the day. They are higher in meat protein and lower in carbs. There are also homemade diets you can use but you need to get a recipe designed specifically for diabetic cats.

I'm not sure which vet online you were referring to but if is Deborah Greco from Purina Animal Health, she is the countries' foremost authority on diabetic cat nutrition. I've been to several of her seminars over the years. Any advice she gives on what to feed a diabetic cat is going to be spot on. She may have a homemade recipe somewhere online but I haven't looked lately. Hopefully, it's the one you already have.

HTH



Steve thanks for all this information.Its a huge help,especially the info on the insulin absorption. It explains alot of what I see in Mats behavior. The insulin we use is Prozinc recombinant human.

The vet I was referring to is Lisa Pierson...http://catinfo.org

She has a pretty strong following on the forums for diabetic cats and cat nutrition in general. I will have to look up Deborah Greco.

I was thinking that it may be best if we train him to get 3 meals...morning and night and during the day (~ mid day)use an auto feeder for a dry food(evo ancestral diet) This might help when we go away...We have switched him to wet food since he became diabetic. I scour the ingredent list to be sure its ok for him. Its challenging with him as he was very obsessed with food and over weight...yet his sister is a picker.She is not diabetic. So we have the pair of them which makes it even more difficult to regulate his intake.

Appreciate your insight here! Thanks again.

Al

[brewmaster15]

There are also raw diets that consist of freeze dried food. Much healthier than most of the commercial foods but a bit pricey. Well for a cat may not be too bad

Thanks Ryan...yes they are pricey. Its hard because most of whats out there isnt good for a diabetic .... and if it is, that usually means the cats wont like it!

[Swedgin]

Royal canin make a food specificly for diabetic cats, but not sure if available in the US

[smsimcik]

Royal canin make a food specificly for diabetic cats, but not sure if available in the US

That was one of the diets I was referring to and it is available in the U.S.

[smsimcik]

Steve thanks for all this information.Its a huge help,especially the info on the insulin absorption. It explains alot of what I see in Mats behavior. The insulin we use is Prozinc recombinant human.

The vet I was referring to is Lisa Pierson...http://catinfo.org

She has a pretty strong following on the forums for diabetic cats and cat nutrition in general. I will have to look up Deborah Greco.

I was thinking that it may be best if we train him to get 3 meals...morning and night and during the day (~ mid day)use an auto feeder for a dry food(evo ancestral diet) This might help when we go away...We have switched him to wet food since he became diabetic. I scour the ingredent list to be sure its ok for him. Its challenging with him as he was very obsessed with food and over weight...yet his sister is a picker.She is not diabetic. So we have the pair of them which makes it even more difficult to regulate his intake.

Appreciate your insight here! Thanks again.

Al

I checked out Lisa Pierson's link and read her info. Never heard of her and I take exception to some of what she recommends for feeding diabetic cats. Especially her claim that prescription diets are not effective for controlling diabetic cats and that homemade diets are cheaper and better. I do agree with her that canned Fancy feast is an acceptable alternative to the prescription diets.

If you need to feed a homemade diabetic diet to save money I will see if I can find Dr. Greco's homemade diet for you in my seminar notes. She was the lead researcher who developed Purina's DM diet for diabetic cats. I can tell you Purina DM is very effective along with Royal Canin in managing diabetic cats. They are more expensive but most people do not have time to cook a homemade diet for their diabetic cat and appreciate the convenience of a ready to use diet.

[brewmaster15]

Steve, I appreciate your feedback on Lisa Pierson . Its good to have the views of someone in the field. I only know that she is thought of highly on the forums that cater to Cats and her articles are often linked to and referenced. Particularly the ones that cater to diabetic cats. Other than that I know nothing about her.. I will definitely look up Dr.Greco, and take Lisa Pierson's advice with a grain of salt.

Purina DM...


Ingredients (Dry)

Poultry by-product meal, soy protein isolate, corn gluten meal, soy flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, corn starch, animal liver flavor, calcium carbonate, phosphoric acid, fish oil, potassium chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, DL-Methionine, taurine, choline chloride, powdered cellulose, salt, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. A-2561
..
ingredients (Original Canned)


Liver, poultry by-products, meat by-products, water sufficient for processing, chicken, salmon, oat fiber, salmon meal, artificial and natural flavors, calcium sulfate, guar gum, potassium chloride, carrageenan, salt, Vitamin E supplement, mono and dicalcium phosphate, taurine, thiamine mononitrate, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, calcium pantothenate, copper sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide. A-2530


I have read way too much on this stuff trying to figure out how best to feed this guy but from what I can tell the Purina DM gets mixed reviews by the feline owners of diabetic cats.. Of course I understand that doesn't mean its not a good food. We did start with it as that what our Vet gave us when Matt was first diagnosed. The cat loved it. Then we switched to other brands trying to find the right balance of nutrition and cost based on researching the options.. The DM is pricy, and though I only have one diabetic cat, We have no way to feed just him separate, so in effect his sister also gets the same food. Maybe I should look at it again. I would use the wet canned form though. I don't care for corn gluten,soy protein, soy flour and corn starch in a cats food.


I was not aware of the Royal Canin brand, thanks for that info Tobi...

Looks like I can get it petco ...but need a vet Prescription

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feeding guidelines and ingredients..

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Steve, if you do have a chance to dig up that recipe from Dr. Greco, I would appreciate it. I thought I had gotten away from making homemade petfoods when I stopped making it for my discus, looks like I may start up again, this time for my cats!

al

[smsimcik]

Al, I can't find a home made diet for diabetes from Dr. Greco. Now I'm not even sure she ever had one. I do remember her saying canned Fancy Feast is a good, cheap substitute for the prescription diets.
Another issue with people trying to make home made diets for their cats is nutritional deficiencies with long term use. It's very hard to make a nutritionally balanced home made diet without eventually having problems, namely taurine deficiency.

Don't get too stressed out over diet. The insulin therapy is much more important than diet. You just need to find a good canned food high in protein and with no more than 5% carbs. One that he likes and eats regularly from day to day. Also you don't need get over concerned with plant proteins like soy protein, corn gluten, etc. They have no affect on his blood glucose levels or his overall health.

I did find an article by Dr. Greco on treating diabetic cats and dogs. It was written for vets and is pretty technical but it does have some good info on treating diabetes with insulin. It starts on page 9.

http://www.cliniciansbrief.com/sites/default/files/attachments/2014_Purina%20Pro_completeC.PDF

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Steve! Great tech writeup. Just what I like !:)


I do remember her saying canned Fancy Feast is a good, cheap substitute for the prescription diets. Thats good ! Thats one of the ones I settled on as a food... The classic pate is one used by many with cats that have diabetes.
Thanks for all your help Steve, really appreciate it!
al

[brewmaster15]

Steve,
I wanted to thank you here for your help. We finally got Matt stable though we almost lost him in August while we were away for 2 weeks. We hada vet tech dosing him 2x daily and had purchased an automatic feeder for a mid day meal....

Up until the trip he had been doing well ...gaining weight again and actively playing. ..during the trip he went down hill. stress may have been part of the problem. His ketones shot up. The honest fact is He may have been doing better but not enough. Our vet kind of dropped the ball and even admitted it to us . I came home to a lethargic cat that could not even stand let alone eat. We were faced with the animal hospital which probably would have killed him in his poor state,euthanize ,or take him home and nurse him best we could. We took him home. I stayed up with him all night for 2 days and gave him water by syringe and dm soft food ... It was pretty bleak. We said our goodbyes and the next morning were going to take him to the vet to be euthanized. That night.he got up, shaky and sat up. :) It was a slow road that took almost 2 weeks....but he finally recovered.


Matt gets dm now 4 times a day.1/4 can each feeding. Morning and night with his insulin (3 unit x 2 times), mid day and mid night. Being a food junky that worked best.. twice a day and he crashed. He gets a few treats when he needs it to get him by. Freeze dried turkey and salmon works great. We have to feed him and his non diabetic sister in separate rooms. Its a royal hassel, but thats partly why he crashed before we separated them at feeding...he would eat his then muscle her out of the way and eat hers!

The Dm has worked wonders. Its costly but with Matt its best. Fancy feast classics is a close but his levels are still a tad high though many feed it. We feed fancy feast to his sister though just incase he sneaks in and eats some. Dm is expensive, and man so is the insulin and syringes. I feel for anybody thats got diabetes.

My biggest take home is I think vets should out right say that if your cat is diabetic you have to have a monitor.Ours didnt. :( He said we could get one if we needed...thats where he dropped the ball. They had meant to check Matt regularly and see if 2 units worked... we were guessing and goind by behavior. Being new to a diabetic cat we didnt know better. Theres absolutely no way I can see dealing with a diabetic cat without using a glucose meter ...taking them to vet to do it is just not enough. I wish my vet had stressed that. I think they worried about us not wanting to keep the cat alive if we had to test its sugar levels with a meter.

When he crashed this last.time I bought a meter and we check regularly and if we see him looking off. We have even got him to the point where we can go away for a few days and not worry .

Thanks to you and your advice it helped get him back on track and helped us figure out how to deal with him. I appreciate you taking the time to post in this thread and offer help.

Al

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[Disgirl]

He is a handsome cat Al, glad to hear he is doing so well now.
Barb

[Keith Perkins]

So Al, what's a good blood sugar range for a cat? Just curious being type one diabetic for about 50 years now.

Sorry if you said somewhere and I've forgotten.

[brewmaster15]

So Al, what's a good blood sugar range for a cat? Just curious being type one diabetic for about 50 years now.

Sorry if you said somewhere and I've forgotten.

Keith,
I have seen cats normal values listed as 64-170 , 70-150, 80-120 depending on what reference. For our cat he was in 500 -550 range:( when we tested him.. If we measure him in the low 100's we are happy. that takes 3 units of insulin ( prozinc..a human insulin).. 4 units was too much and pushed him in the high 60's so our vet settled on the 3 units twice a day which has been working. With cats theres sometimes a chance they will stop needing it, which I would really wish happens but at least he is stable. Its pretty easy to test him to, You use the vein at the ears margin.

al

[brewmaster15]

He is a handsome cat Al, glad to hear he is doing so well now.
Barb

Thanks Barb! He is a good cat, my daughter would have been devastated if we lost him. BTW..Thanks for the fancy feast tip.:)

al

[smsimcik]

Steve,
I wanted to thank you here for your help. We finally got Matt stable though we almost lost him in August while we were away for 2 weeks. We hada vet tech dosing him 2x daily and had purchased an automatic feeder for a mid day meal....

Up until the trip he had been doing well ...gaining weight again and actively playing. ..during the trip he went down hill. stress may have been part of the problem. His ketones shot up. The honest fact is He may have been doing better but not enough. Our vet kind of dropped the ball and even admitted it to us . I came home to a lethargic cat that could not even stand let alone eat. We were faced with the animal hospital which probably would have killed him in his poor state,euthanize ,or take him home and nurse him best we could. We took him home. I stayed up with him all night for 2 days and gave him water by syringe and dm soft food ... It was pretty bleak. We said our goodbyes and the next morning were going to take him to the vet to be euthanized. That night.he got up, shaky and sat up. :) It was a slow road that took almost 2 weeks....but he finally recovered.


Matt gets dm now 4 times a day.1/4 can each feeding. Morning and night with his insulin (3 unit x 2 times), mid day and mid night. Being a food junky that worked best.. twice a day and he crashed. He gets a few treats when he needs it to get him by. Freeze dried turkey and salmon works great. We have to feed him and his non diabetic sister in separate rooms. Its a royal hassel, but thats partly why he crashed before we separated them at feeding...he would eat his then muscle her out of the way and eat hers!

The Dm has worked wonders. Its costly but with Matt its best. Fancy feast classics is a close but his levels are still a tad high though many feed it. We feed fancy feast to his sister though just incase he sneaks in and eats some. Dm is expensive, and man so is the insulin and syringes. I feel for anybody thats got diabetes.

My biggest take home is I think vets should out right say that if your cat is diabetic you have to have a monitor.Ours didnt. :( He said we could get one if we needed...thats where he dropped the ball. They had meant to check Matt regularly and see if 2 units worked... we were guessing and goind by behavior. Being new to a diabetic cat we didnt know better. Theres absolutely no way I can see dealing with a diabetic cat without using a glucose meter ...taking them to vet to do it is just not enough. I wish my vet had stressed that. I think they worried about us not wanting to keep the cat alive if we had to test its sugar levels with a meter.

When he crashed this last.time I bought a meter and we check regularly and if we see him looking off. We have even got him to the point where we can go away for a few days and not worry .

Thanks to you and your advice it helped get him back on track and helped us figure out how to deal with him. I appreciate you taking the time to post in this thread and offer help.

Al

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Hey Al,
I'm glad to hear you've got Matt stable again after your August vacation.

You sound like you're going the whole nine yards with your diabetes therapy now. Not many clients are willing to feed DM 4 times/day, including the middle of the night. Not many client are willing to separate the cats at feeding time. Not many clients are willing to learn how to get blood samples and monitor blood glucose daily as you are doing. Some are not even willing to learn how to give insulin injections and simple elect euthanasia. You sound like you are doing about everything you can do at home to keep him stable.

It's disappointing that he got so stressed when you were away, but that's not unusual for an older cat. The are very sensitive to changes in their daily routine. He probably wasn't eating or drinking like he normally would and that screwed up his insulin and glucose metabolism. Too bad the vet tech checking on him wasn't able to tell he was getting worse.

Your vet probably misunderstood your level of commitment towards Matt's treatment. That's why they didn't pursue the glucose home monitor initially. Like I said before, very few clients are willing or able to take blood samples and monitor glucose levels through the day.

Keep doing what you are doing and try to minimize changes in his daily routine that will stress him. Hopefully he will remain stable for a while without any major changes to his treatment.

The set back you experienced in Aug. is actually pretty common with old diabetic cats. Diabetic cats are the toughest to get regulated on insulin, harder than dogs, horses, ferrets or humans. It's not too surprising a diabetic cat left for 2 weeks would have a set back like that.

And as far as him maybe getting off insulin completely someday, I wouldn't count on it. You may be able to reduce the dose but it's unlikely he will ever be off insulin completely.
Good luck and keep us posted.