My Dirty Dozen

[Paul Sabucchi]

Got my juvies at last. Yesterday I went t Bologna to fetch 12 juvies born about 3 months ago by a pair bred by SG discus and raised by Federico Dall'Osso. 4 hours later they were in my tank, that I previously added with salts to bring the conductivity from 140 up to 400μS, closer to what they are used to. They are between 2" and 2 1/2", all nice and chunky with no sharp faces. For their age I think they show good morphology and already decent colouring. They readily eat microgranules and even some crushed Orijen Six Fish (cat kibble). So plenty of varied feeding and water changing ahead. Ciao

https://youtu.be/Muz3Yd7Qw98

https://youtu.be/l6G9b3KZvOk

[Phillydubs]

Big Congrats to you !!

[Surf&turf]

Very nice!!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks and thank you all again for the knowledge and advice this forum has provided and for all the backup I will be needing now that I have got the fish for real.

[RogueDiscus]

Congratulations Paul. I would agree, nice shape and color. Looks like you got at least a baker's dozen! It's interesting to read you feed cat kibble. I wonder if that's more common in Italy than it is here in the US.

[two utes]

Congratulations Paul. Its great having an opportunity raising Juvies, knowing that you have some control over how they turn out. Enjoy the journey

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi, I would not say it is common over here either. It came up on a local forum (Mondo Discus), someone feeding his kitty on this posh canadian (but they also have a facility in Kentucky) cat food must have realized that the ingredients red like a dream fish food that would make the premium brands like NLS and NorthFin look like they are cutting corners. No generic "fish meal" but only selected species of fish and 2/3 of that is fresh/flash frozen and not processed to a pulp. Actually would not mind if my meals were made from those ingredents. Even considering the prrmium ingredients and the import costs it still works out a lot cheeper than avarage food for fish. I tried to contact them to see if they were interested in making it into granules but they answered it was not in their current business model. Maybe if people stateside think this argument has some merit maybe they may rethink and make us some granules (if possible with a litthe less herring and sunflower oil).
Here are the ingredients.

Orijen

keywords
ORIJEN SIX FISHDetermined Fritz from Tahlequah, Oklahoma.

AVAILABLE SIZES
12 OZ / 4 LB / 12 LB
90%
WILD-CAUGHT FISH INGREDIENTS
10%
VEGETABLES | FRUITS | BOTANICALS
0%
GRAIN | POTATO | TAPIOCA | PLANT PROTEIN CONCENTRATES
NEW FEATURESCOMPARISONBROCHURE
BIOLOGICALLY APPROPRIATE™ | FOR ALL LIFE STAGES
NEW ENGLAND MACKEREL, HERRING, FLOUNDER, REDFISH, MONKFISH AND SILVER HAKE
PACKED WITH FRESH, SUSTAINABLE AND WILD-CAUGHT FISH FROM NEW ENGLAND TO SATISFY YOUR CAT’S BIOLOGICAL NEED FOR A PROTEIN-RICH DIET.

Brimming with 40% richly nourishing protein, and limited to 18% low-glycemic carbohydrates to nourish cats and kittens according to their evolutionary and biological needs.

A full 2/3 of our fish is FRESH (refrigerated, without preservatives) or RAW (flash-frozen, without preservatives), including the top 6 fish ingredients.

Nutrient-dense WholePrey™ ratios of fresh whole fish (including meat, organs, and cartilage) provide virtually every nutrient your cat needs – only choline, zinc and copper are added.

Our dried fish are specially prepared at 200ºF from fresh, whole, wild-caught fish to create a concentrated source of richly nourishing protein that cannot be supplied by fresh fish alone.

Infusions of gently freeze-dried cod liver enhance flavor and palatability naturally, making ORIJEN deliciously tasty, even for fussy eaters.


MEATMATH®
INGREDIENTS
ANALYSIS
FEEDING
NATURE'S RULES
INGREDIENTS WE LOVE FROM PEOPLE WE TRUST
Whole atlantic mackerel, whole atlantic herring, whole atlantic flounder, whole acadian redfish, atlantic monkfish, whole silver hake, mackerel meal, herring meal, blue whiting meal, herring oil, whole green peas, whole navy beans, whole red lentils, alaskan cod meal, pollock meal, sunflower oil, whole pinto beans, whole chickpeas, natural fish flavor, whole green lentils, whole yellow peas, safflower oil, lentil fiber, freeze-dried cod liver, whole pumpkin, whole butternut squash, kale, spinach, mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, whole carrots, whole apples, whole pears, dried kelp, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, choline chloride, zinc proteinate, mixed tocopherols (preservative), copper proteinate, chicory root, turmeric, sarsaparilla root, althea root, rosehips, juniper berries, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product.

Ciao

[Ryan925]

Congrats Paul. Happy to see you finally have some fish. You have done so well in your planning and research. Wish you the best and look forward to seeing your progress.

Please do a journal and update frequently. You will regret if you don't and have to go back and try and piece of together like I did.

Take monthly pics of the fish if not weekly. Really helps to see their progress

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks for the advice, will follow it and take regular photos/videos. At the moment keeping the lights very subdued (no mire than 2%) so not to startle them into hiding behind the sponge filter all the time. As they grow accustomed to it I will bump it up to 3%, then 5 and 8% that should allow better photos/video. To all down the South East end of US stay safe and may your guardian angels be topped up on caffeine

[Paul Sabucchi]

Slightly more passable photos taken with a camera (will try the dslr next). Light still only 5% may bump it up to 8. Waiting for the weather to go more autumnal to order some frozen food (no local retail), thinking about getting antarctic krill, cyclops, daphnia, mysis?

[Adam S]

Very nice fish, Paul. For those interested, SG Discus also has a few YouTube of their wonderful hatchery. Their water change system is a thing of beauty.

Concerning frozen foods, frozen daphnia tends to fall apart and make a mess. Not a fan of it. Live daphnia is very good though if you can find it. There are places that sell daphnia ephippia if live is not available in your area.

[Phillydubs]

They really look awesome! Finally, someone with pics crappier than mine!! LOL JK

Look to have a nice shape already at such a young age, you scored a nice group!!!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks for the advice, now it is up to me not to screw them up. Will give the frozen daphnia miss. Ciao

[Paul Sabucchi]

Will try to do better as soon as i can increase the lighting, for now I keep it subdued so not to startle the babies

[Paul Sabucchi]

One week in and so far so good...
https://youtu.be/2k2Pfm3Jb94

[Paul Sabucchi]

They all seem to be doing ok bar one shy little fella, suppose there always has to be a runt. Feeding a variety of granules (Sera, Tetra, SHG, NorthFin krill), they are moderately keen on halibut filet (grated with a zester from frozen) but more keen on mussels. As I am not too keen on messy beefheart mixes do you think there would be any issues if I carry on feeding as above? Ciao

[Dhavalsp]

nice fish, good luck!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks, I probably need a little luck for what seems to be the "runt" of the bunch. As I believe normal some are growing at a faster rate than others. There is one that, although not visibly smaller or thinner than the other little ones, is less coloured and shows less interest in food. He is the last to join the feeding and seems less keen to blow and pick up food from the bottom but more often just picks the smaller particles floating about. At least he does not appear to be bullied or otherwise shunned. Water parameters remain good with 50% daily wc, nitrates still undetectable with Sera liquid test that I reckon is pretty reliable. Ciao
https://youtu.be/-Rw8KtxJnsM

[Phillydubs]

Paul,

They are looking really nice! I would just stay with your slow steady approach and not worry too much just yet. If you ask me it is far too soon to tell and if he is eating and not getting his booty kicked, then you should be fine.

I have seen many folks here post about a runt or one who seems to be behind the curve then BOOM growth spurt and that fish becomes the tank boss or one of the biggest.

Just look out for any obvious issues or problems, otherwise let nature take its course and I bet you will be surprised.

That being said, sometimes it happens, I recently had to re-home a fish that just wasn't cutting it in my tank and rather than see it slowly deteriorate I felt the need to find it anew location. Many people buy a big group knowing they will slim it out along the way. Others grow fond of their runts and they keep them just cause they have love for it and don't care that it's not a show fish...

All I can suggest as I said, is do your thing, feed good food as you are and do your water changes. The worst thing you can do, and what I often do, is try to resolve a problem that isn't really a problem, say by over feeding, or medicating or changing up something drastically that ends up causing more harm than good.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks for the advice and reassurance, if it ain't broke don't fix it always holds true.

[Phillydubs]

Very true my friend and as I said, coming from a guy who racks his brain for "fixes" that usually bite my bum, leave it bee!!!!!

If I can't change my own wonky ways at least I can maybe help a pal such as yourself learn from my dumb mistakes!

[Filip]

Congratulations Paul . Your patience and good planing has finnaly paid off .
Your Mellon's look pretty good in shape and colour and they do not show peppering as far as I can see from the videos.
Its too early to judge runts and growth potential at this stage , as Phil has said already .
Just , feed , change water , enjoy and document and share their monthly growth on photos with us here .

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks again, as long as the little fella is eating, even if it is mostly his favourite -mussels- I am happy. Just to be on the safe side I blanche the grated frozen mussels just as a precation, not so much to zap bacteria but more for the thiaminase (although probably already pre-cooked). Tomorrow evening the fish will have been in my tank a fortnight, not wormed them yet will probably wait a little longer but, although over here most discus keepers don't bother, I'd like to get it done for peace of mind.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Changed the 4 dodgy ebay LED rigid bars (the waterproof claim was wishful advertising) to some from amazon (lets hope). Put in 2 x 1 meter 2070 cool white and 2 x 1 meter 5050 RGB. Currently running lights no more than 15% on the tc420. Fish seem pretty chilled even with brighter light or during water changes so not regretting leaving the tank BB. The little fella is still plucking mostly small food particles from the water column rather than going for the more substantial ones on the bottom but as long as he is eating... At least the others seem to be growing steadily, they will be 4 months old next week. Ciao from Italy and wishing everyone a serene week-end

[Filip]

So far so good Paul . They look great on your latest pics . Ciao :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks, the improved lighting seems to help the quality of the pics

[Paul Sabucchi]

During today's water change I fished out one of the juvies, he now is 8 cm or just over 3" tail included. So they have gained 1" in the next to 4 weeks I had them, alre we on track for 16 week old discus? Ciao

[Phillydubs]

Sounds like a great and spot on growth rate if you ask me! Very cool!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thank you for confirming that, so if I am not messing up too badly I suppose I'll carry on trying to encourage healthy growth with syphoning, 80% daily water changes and feeding every 3-4 hours in turn Northfin krill, Sera, Tetra and SHG granules, crushed Orijen Six Fish, grated mussels and halibut. Don't know uf it is correct but I am not focusing a lot on colour enhancing foods at this early stage on the understanding that fish of any age can pick up pigment while only in this early stage discus grow. Ciao

[Paul Sabucchi]

Another month has gone by, now 6 months old. I think we are on track. The bigger ones nudging 4" tl but even the smaller ones are eating ok so they should catch up eventually. Still feeding them mostly fish and mussels but increasing the granules (alternating northfin, sera, tetra, tropical, shg) as the ones the breeder kept and fed exclusively on discus gran are a lot redder.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Just a video as above
https://youtu.be/BV7z65cFK8E

[Altum Nut]

Paulo...Those are some very nice Clean as supposed to Dirty Discus..Lol and love to see they have very full bellies.

...Ralph

[Paul Sabucchi]

Cheers, I am reasonably happy with the progress so far with my first try with discus. It has been of immense help to keep it simple and follow the basic advice given on this forum: buy good quality fish all at the same time from the same origin, plenty of clean water and plenty of good food. I can always do "more complicated" once I have got the hang of it. Ciao

[Paul Sabucchi]

7 months old and in my tank for the last 4. All growing but obviously at different rates. One of the two smallest has had a growth spurt, he can be seen from about 2:20, he is recognisable as he has a scoliotic bump at the base of his tail, that does not hamper him one bit.
https://youtu.be/TZf8Jt7bGrg

While for a change of scenery here is one of my mbuna tanks
https://youtu.be/h_0RiKvohPw

[HappyFace]

Beautiful!!!

[100fuegos]

Is it me or those fishes have un proportinioned small heads for their body size? Please do not get me wrong, it just does not look natural.

[HappyFace]

I think they are so cute and look extremely healthy. I know some part of body shape is due to genetics but doesn't a smaller head and eyes mean they were raised well- with lots of good food and water changes? ...alternately the bigger the eyes and face, the worse they were raised?

[Paul Sabucchi]

Just the result of lots of good food (wild salmon, cod and mussels) and lots of clean water (240 liters a day) to encourage healthy growth so the body seems big compared to the size of the eyes

[Altum Nut]

I think your Dirty Dozen are simply 'Magnifico'
Also love your African Cichlid tank but must have been tense when those large rocks were set inside knowing how much Africans like to move sand around.

...Ralph

[Paul Sabucchi]

I think your Dirty Dozen are simply 'Magnifico'
Also love your African Cichlid tank but must have been tense when those large rocks were set inside knowing how much Africans like to move sand around.

...Ralph

Thanks, for the discus I am following the KISS guidelines from this forum ( buy good stock, BB, plenty of vlean water and good food). Mbunas are litterally a different kettle of fish, you just can't put enough rocks in the tank. My other tank has even bigger ones in it, they all come from the land around the house. I have trimmed their bottom flat and put the sand in last so no concern about them shifting but it was real scary putting them in as some are over 80 lb. Would not like to have to pull yhem out now they are slippery with algae (would need to use a sling). Ciao

https://youtu.be/_s6qQtFDvEw

[HappyFace]

Wow that Mbuna tank is amazing and gorgeous. I love the rock. How big is it? How do you keep food from getting under the rocks and rotting? Do they eat live food or algae, something that doesn't rot?

I had colorful slate like rock caves in my koi tank. I kept lots of giant blue shrimp and several plecos in the rocks hoping they would eat any leftover food but it still collected in between crevices and rotted. I had to remove it. :(

[two utes]

7 months old and in my tank for the last 4. All growing but obviously at different rates. One of the two smallest has had a growth spurt, he can be seen from about 2:20, he is recognisable as he has a scoliotic bump at the base of his tail, that does not hamper him one bit.
https://youtu.be/TZf8Jt7bGrg

While for a change of scenery here is one of my mbuna tanks
https://youtu.be/h_0RiKvohPw

Nice work with this group Paul. Coming along nicely

[Paul Sabucchi]

Nice work with this group Paul. Coming along nicely

Thanks, high praise coming from you. I appreciate all the help I got/am getting on this forum.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Wow that Mbuna tank is amazing and gorgeous. I love the rock. How big is it? How do you keep food from getting under the rocks and rotting? Do they eat live food or algae, something that doesn't rot?

I had colorful slate like rock caves in my koi tank. I kept lots of giant blue shrimp and several plecos in the rocks hoping they would eat any leftover food but it still collected in between crevices and rotted. I had to remove it. :(

That is a 6' but I also have a 5' with different stocking of mbunas. I feed them mostly JBL NovoMalawi flakes and blanched veggies (their favourite is cucumber)+ they obviously graze the algae. Not too messy, the two big canister filters and weekly water changes/syphoning are enough to keep on top of the muck. Ciao

[HappyFace]

That is a 6' but I also have a 5' with different stocking of mbunas. I feed them mostly JBL NovoMalawi flakes and blanched veggies (their favourite is cucumber)+ they obviously graze the algae. Not too messy, the two big canister filters and weekly water changes/syphoning are enough to keep on top of the muck. Ciao

It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing and your reply.

[Filip]

Great progression Paul . For 7 months of age their shape and size looks more than optimal, at least in half of them IMO .
Maybe I'm wrong here but I as Heidi , also think that their small sized head and tiny eyes in some of them refers to a Maximal growth rather than some genetic trait.

Keep up the good work Paul. I Cant wait to see them colouring up in this next few months.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks, trying to do my best for them. I attempted to reduce the quantity of mussels and swap cod for the wild salmon but the little blighters have aquired expensive tastes...good job they have not tried caviar!

[Filip]

Thanks, trying to do my best for them. I attempted to reduce the quantity of mussels and swap cod for the wild salmon but the little blighters have aquired expensive tastes...good job they have not tried caviar!

They are very hard headed fish when it comes to excepting new food IME. It can take months for some to do that .The older they are the more stubborn they seemed to be regarding this matter .
Introduce the new feed when they are most hungry , but feed them with already accepted food during the rest of the day . Eventually they should obey .

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks for the advice

[Paul Sabucchi]

Remembered to take a picture while they are all bunched up during the daily water change. The different rate of growth amongst them is evident, they are now 7 and 1/2 mobths old. As I have been told some of the smaller ones have had a growth spurt and are now of avarage size, two at the moment are lahging a bit behind the others but they are eating ok and although smaller they look round and chubby so hopefully they will catch up eventually.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Now 10 months old, lately they were breathing a bit faster, a bit paler and less appetite, as parameters all ok I guessed they had outgrown the oxygenating capacity of the system, added a head pump (300 gph) and they soon went back to normal. Ordered a bigger canister filter (usual Jebao 304 from Wiltec in Germany), arrived today so I'll se if the increased flowrate / sulerficial agitation is sufficient. Anyway I am going to order a batch of Sunsun wavemakers, one for the discus (maybe to use on a timer) and some for the aging tanks and mbuna ones.
https://youtu.be/Um7XqAKzLpg

[Filip]

Im glad you've overcome the problem Paul .
Your fish looks great in shape and in colours .
Have you considered an increased bioload and water quality as potential culprit for this discus behavour ? . Same feeding and WC regime VS a lot bigger discus size than before may be something to consider here too.

One other thought about your light source . Is it only a white light ? If so , try changing it in a warm white / yellow light (3000-4000 Kelvins) along with a some red LED or a plant grow bulb in it.
It will make the warm colours of your discus much more vibrant and alive .

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi, when I first noticed the fish seemed less happy I immediately checked water quality with my Sera liquid tests, fearing as you said some kind of mini-cycle causing formation of meta-haemoglobin and consequently decreased tissue oxygenation. All the tests were 0, even NO3 is practically undetectable so the massive daily wc are still doing the trick. As mentioned I have swapped the old small Fluval canister with a big Jebao 304, tranferred the cycled media and added 3 times as much again, but more for the increased flow. Even with that the fish, although happier, still did not seem as good as when I had the additional 1200 l/h pump, so I put it back in while I wait for the Sunsun jvp 110 wavemaker (2000 l/h) to arrive (hopefully tuesday). I am as puzzled as anyone about these fish requiring so much water agitation but it appears that this is the thing that makes the difference for them and not the filtration or the water changes, on top of that they seem to be having more fun feeding as they chase the shreds of salmon that drift and wriggle in the current, go figure! I may put the wavemaker on a timer and have it on only during daytime and see how that works or e en consider a more fancy one with speed controll and other bells and whistles

[Paul Sabucchi]

Also yes the lighting on the video is only cold white but I also have rgb bars all controlled by a tc420. At the moment I use them mostly for dawn/dusk and moonlight effects but I could definitely boost the warmer end of the light spectrum. I still have a free channel on the tc420 so I could add warm white bars (advice about decent quality waterproof LED bars welcome)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Had the small wavemaker (Sunsun jvp110) in the tank for 2 days and the fish seem pretty happy. Bigger canister filter (Jebao 304 as per my usual) been on for a week so that also adds to the surface agiation. Current in the tank is visible but not turbulent and chasing the food about seems to keep the fish entertained!
https://youtu.be/k7pJLbK4-0g

[Filip]

The current on the video seems slow enough not to disturb them Paul .
The colours are better too than from your last photo .
You already have some beasts among them .
Great job done .

[Paul Sabucchi]

Thanks, Sony travel camera better than crappy spare smartphone at taking videos. The fish definitely seem to thrive with he increased surface agitation, wavemakers for discus...who would have thunk it!

[chrisc]

Thanks, Sony travel camera better than crappy spare smartphone at taking videos. The fish definitely seem to thrive with he increased surface agitation, wavemakers for discus...who would have thunk it!

Hi Paul, are you still feeding those premium kitty snacks? Hows that been going?
Chris

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi Paul, are you still feeding those premium kitty snacks? Hows that been going?
Chris

Hi, no as I got fed up of having to crumble the stuff getting bits either too small or too big, but I still feed it (ground finely) to my smaller fish. the discus are fed mainly wild alaska salmon

[Mando]

Hi, no as I got fed up of having to crumble the stuff getting bits either too small or too big, but I still feed it (ground finely) to my smaller fish. the discus are fed mainly wild alaska salmon

Hey, Paul! beautiful fish. How often are you feeding? Also, do you feed Alaska salmon once a day as a treat or is their diet fully and solely Alaska salmon?

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi, I give quality granules as their first meal at 6.30, then salmon 4 times the rest of the day, last at about 8 p.m. then water change.
They are now 11 months old, definitely benefitting from the increased surface agitation provided by the wavemaker.
https://youtu.be/bXEtfgRp91Q.
Here is a overview of all my tanks
https://youtu.be/LFZ3B3XkaQM
Ciao