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LoGeek
03-25-2018, 01:37 PM
My tank has been running for about a year and I have serious algae problems that only seem to get worse. I have different types of Anubias and Java Fern on driftwood.

I would really appreciate help from you guys!

Here are all the relevant facts I can think of:

Tank: 450l = 120 gallons, bare bottom
Lighting: Juwel hi-lite T5, 2x54W. 4x54 installed but I'm only running 2.
Lighting period: 8h
Fish: 10 adult discus and 2 Bristlenose Plecos.
Feeding: TetraBits/FDBW once per day and diy seafood mix once per day.
Temperature: 28-29C = 82.5-84.2F
Filtration: Two canister filters, Juwel Bioflow internal filter and a sponge filter.
Water changes: 20% daily plus 2x50% weekly.
CO2: Pressurized co2 but at fairly low rate, considering pH-swings at water change. Around 10-15 ppm.
Plant fertilizers: PMDD; KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4 and micro nutrients.

I'm dosing full dose pmdd after 50% water change which corresponds to:
NO3 ~ 5 ppm
PO4 ~ 0,5 ppm
K ~ 7 ppm
Fe ~ 0,05 ppm

After 20% daily water change I'm dosing 1/5 of full dose pmdd.

What types of algae am I dealing with? And what can I do about this?

Posting some pictures.

LoGeek
03-25-2018, 01:41 PM
https://s26.postimg.org/n4mbhdx89/20180325_170810.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/bs9pzoguh/20180325_171426.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/vmvrlt3rt/20180325_171443.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/ojnw66b6x/20180325_171503.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/ad85axsm1/20180325_171521.jpg

LoGeek
03-25-2018, 01:47 PM
https://s26.postimg.org/4vk50smrd/20180325_194329.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/cbjemli6h/20180325_194359.jpg

LoGeek
03-25-2018, 02:39 PM
Full tank shot:

https://s26.postimg.org/egzsdbl61/20180309_225649.jpg

Disgirl
03-25-2018, 05:54 PM
Your tank is beautiful. But I feel sure you need to do way more water changes. That is a whole lot of big fish. Most people here would recommend you do at least 50% daily for that many fish in your tank. I see black beard algae and blue/green algae, both mean more wc's in my experience. Good luck,
Barb

Larry Bugg
03-25-2018, 07:03 PM
Black beard algae is caused by an imbalance of light, nutrients and co2. My guess is you are having the problem due to low co2. PH swings from co2 doesn't cause issues with fish. I would turn it up some and see what happens. You can turn off your filters and squirt some Seachem excel or peroxide on the BBA and it will kill it. You only need to leave the filter off for a few minutes so the excel or peroxide can settle on the algae. I use an eyedropper to squirt it.

Filip
03-26-2018, 04:02 AM
Congrats on your great looking tank and discus Jorgen .
You have black beard algae on your first and a BGA -cyano on your last picture .

I would start with cleaner water column here IIWY.
This is a low tech tank with slow growing plants and I think it would be better off without any fert
dosing. If you use tap water for WCs there should be enough minerals for this plant types to thrive .
I would raise the WCs too to clean the water column from any excess minerals and nutrients .

If you want instant fix to start with
, you can use H2o2 bath , but that will not address the root cause of your problem .

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 04:43 AM
Thanks for your replies!

I thought I was changing a lot of water since the discus are adults and I'm only feeding twice a day. So should I do 50%/day instead of 5x20% + 2x50% per week? Or less often but 80%?

I'll stop the dosing for now then.

Larry, regarding the co2 I ment that 50% water change causes a large pH rise, and so I try only to lower pH with co2 about 0,7 units.

I agree that there's cyano and bba in the tank. The algae that is most widespread is however the thin dark layer on the Anubias, all over the leaves. I'm ptetty sute this is not bba. It's very thin so you can barely feel it and it does not rub off. It's different from the short beard on the edges from bba.

I used to have lots of green spot algae but it disappeared when I started dosing pmdd.

Anyway I'll stop the dosing and bump up the water changes to start with. Please comment on the thin dark algae on the leaves.

Also, is 10 adults too much for a 120 gallon? How many should I sell in that case?

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 04:46 AM
Congrats on your great looking tank and discus Jorgen .
You have black beard algae on your first and a BGA -cyano on your last picture .

I would start with cleaner water column here IIWY.
This is a low tech tank with slow growing plants and I think it would be better off without any fert
dosing. If you use tap water for WCs there should be enough minerals for this plant types to thrive .
I would raise the WCs too to clean the water column from any excess minerals and nutrients .

If you want instant fix to start with
, you can use H2o2 bath , but that will not address the root cause of your problem .

Thank you Filip!

My largest driftwood is really big, so it doesn't fit in a bucket. I have H2O2, but can it be sprayed? At what dilution?

I did spray glutaraldehyde at water change for a long time without any improvement.

Filip
03-26-2018, 05:11 AM
Thanks for your replies!

I thought I was changing a lot of water since the discus are adults and I'm only feeding twice a day. So should I do 50%/day instead of 5x20% + 2x50% per week? Or less often but 80%?

I'll stop the dosing for now then.

Larry, regarding the co2 I ment that 50% water change causes a large pH rise, and so I try only to lower pH with co2 about 0,7 units.

I agree that there's cyano and bba in the tank. The algae that is most widespread is however the thin dark layer on the Anubias, all over the leaves. I'm ptetty sute this is not bba. It's very thin so you can barely feel it and it does not rub off. It's different from the short beard on the edges from bba.

I used to have lots of green spot algae but it disappeared when I started dosing pmdd.

Anyway I'll stop the dosing and bump up the water changes to start with. Please comment on the thin dark algae on the leaves.

Also, is 10 adults too much for a 120 gallon? How many should I sell in that case?

I think that when it comes to your discus health , you can get away with your current WC routine as long as you keep the bottom and filters clean clean and regulary siphoned from excess food and poop .
I recommended more WCs only currently ,regarding your algae problem , because I believe that excess nutrients in water column might be the root cause of it.

About the thin dark layer on Anubias I still belive that thats Black beard algae but in a begginig phase , before it stars to form clumps and bushes .

About the bioload . I think that 10 discus in a 120 G is an optimal ratio and I would not sell any of your current batch with your given WC routine .

Filip
03-26-2018, 05:23 AM
Thank you Filip!

My largest driftwood is really big, so it doesn't fit in a bucket. I have H2O2, but can it be sprayed? At what dilution?

I did spray glutaraldehyde at water change for a long time without any improvement.

You can spray the plants directly on dry while performing WC , wait 5-10 minutes and then refill new water . Spray with non- diluted 3% H2O2 but don't spray over 1000ml on one occasion .

Other method is to give the whole tank a 30 min. 3% H2O2 bath at 4ml per liter of water ratio .
You WC +50% afterwards .

In both cases turn off the filters for 30 min. Until H2O2 dilute in the water .

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 05:29 AM
Thanks for clarifying Filip.

About bba I'm still not convinced... The bba I know I have forms bushes and looks different. The large black spots never do that, even after months. It looks more like black GSA...

I'll keep my fish then :) I siphon almost daily.

bluelagoon
03-26-2018, 07:44 AM
The slow growing plants you have do not need bright lights and ferts as mentioned.I have had good results in blackening the tank out for 3-4 days,with a blanket.

Filip
03-26-2018, 08:33 AM
The slow growing plants you have do not need bright lights and ferts as mentioned.I have had good results in blackening the tank out for 3-4 days,with a blanket.

+1 for the Blackout method .
It gives a quick fix to kill the algae and clean out your tank from algae in a matter of days .

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 08:50 AM
Will all algae die from 3 days black out? Or just cyano?

Ok for the fish? No feeding during black out I guess.

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 09:01 AM
You can spray the plants directly on dry while performing WC , wait 5-10 minutes and then refill new water . Spray with non- diluted 3% H2O2 but don't spray over 1000ml on one occasion .

Other method is to give the whole tank a 30 min. 3% H2O2 bath at 4ml per liter of water ratio .
You WC +50% afterwards .

In both cases turn off the filters for 30 min. Until H2O2 dilute in the water .

To treat the entire tank the fish have to be removed right?!

Filip
03-26-2018, 09:04 AM
Will all algae die from 3 days black out? Or just cyano?

Ok for the fish? No feeding during black out I guess.

They should all die in a 4 day blackout .
Big Cleanout and WC prior and after the blackout and added aeration/ surface agitation during the method is advised to keep your fish safe . No feeding at all.
Daily inspection and checking on your discus behavour wouldn't hurt either .

bluelagoon
03-26-2018, 09:46 AM
Algae will starve without light or nutrients.Also,the better method for cyano,instead of erythromycin treatment,IMO.It has to be total darkness;that means no peeking.I've never peeked.

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 01:59 PM
I'll start by changing more water, stop dosing pmdd and cut off all infested leaves. Maybe some h2o2 during wc too.

If nothing helps I'll try a blackout.

Thanks!

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 03:40 PM
Started out now with heavy pruning of infested leaves followed by 80% water change. I sprayed most of the plants with h2o2 diluted to ~5%.

Will keep this up and quit dosing pmdd.

I'd like to mention that I thought pmdd was necessary because a lot of my Anubias sprouts plenty of leaves but they stay really tiny and stunted. Also some of them melt. Is this because of high temperature then or what?

Filip
03-26-2018, 04:19 PM
To treat the entire tank the fish have to be removed right?!

I do not remove discus during the H2O2 bath . They show no signs of stress during the 4ml per l H202 bath .Using Strong agitation pump and leaving your filters turned off are a must during the whole tank bath method .

Filip
03-26-2018, 04:37 PM
Started out now with heavy pruning of infested leaves followed by 80% water change. I sprayed most of the plants with h2o2 diluted to ~5%.

Will keep this up and quit dosing pmdd.

I'd like to mention that I thought pmdd was necessary because a lot of my Anubias sprouts plenty of leaves but they stay really tiny and stunted. Also some of them melt. Is this because of high temperature then or what?

Small leaves and stunted growth does sound like a nutrional deficiency , but melting isnt likely to be caused by that .

You have to find a balance in lights , Co2 and dosing if your new growth looks stunted . Once you solve the algae problem you can start back dosing smaller amounts of nutrients and raise them very slowly until you reach the sweet spot.
Your plants are mainly PO4 lovers so maybe you can try to add only phosphate , and limit the rest to what's already in the tap water .

You can also try to lower the light source ensuring slower growth on new leaves and enough time for them to utilize the elements from the water column .

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 05:07 PM
I do not remove discus during the H2O2 bath . They show no signs of stress during the 4ml per l H202 bath .Using Strong agitation pump and leaving your filters turned off are a must during the whole tank bath method .

Oh wow, I had no idea you could treat with h2o2 in doses that kill algae but do not irritate discus!

I have 17,5% h2o2 so I guess I'll have to dose 0.7ml/l then = 0.3l for my 450l tank.

LoGeek
03-26-2018, 05:09 PM
Small leaves and stunted growth does sound like a nutrional deficiency , but melting isnt likely to be caused by that .

You have to find a balance in lights , Co2 and dosing if your new growth looks stunted . Once you solve the algae problem you can start back dosing smaller amounts of nutrients and raise them very slowly until you reach the sweet spot.
Your plants are mainly PO4 lovers so maybe you can try to add only phosphate , and limit the rest to what's already in the tap water .

You can also try to lower the light source ensuring slower growth on new leaves and enough time for them to utilize the elements from the water column .

Sounds like a good plan! :)

Filip
03-27-2018, 03:47 AM
Oh wow, I had no idea you could treat with h2o2 in doses that kill algae but do not irritate discus!

I have 17,5% h2o2 so I guess I'll have to dose 0.7ml/l then = 0.3l for my 450l tank.

Dilute it to 3% with demineralized water first and then dose accordingly .
Your Sol. Is aprox. 6 times stronger so a quick math would give me a dose of 300 ml from 17.5 % sol. For your tank vol . Instead of dosing 1800 Ml from 3% Sol.

LoGeek
03-27-2018, 04:16 AM
Dilute it to 3% with demineralized water first and then dose accordingly .
Your Sol. Is aprox. 6 times stronger so a quick math would give me a dose of 300 ml from 17.5 % sol. For your tank vol . Instead of dosing 1800 Ml from 3% Sol.

I calculated 300ml too but don't see any reason to dilute first...?

Filip
03-27-2018, 07:49 AM
I calculated 300ml too but don't see any reason to dilute first...?

No need at all if you do the math precisely. I was just thinking its safer to calculate beforehand ....

P.S. Just in case.
I hope you already know but there are Hydrogen's peroxides in a form of white paste on the market used by women to bleach their hair .
Avoid those by any means . We are talking about liquid H2O2 commonly used in pharmacy for disinfecting wounds , the one that fizzles when poured on a wound .

LoGeek
03-27-2018, 11:35 AM
No need at all if you do the math precisely. I was just thinking its safer to calculate beforehand ....

P.S. Just in case.
I hope you already know but there are Hydrogen's peroxides in a form of white paste on the market used by women to bleach their hair .
Avoid those by any means . We are talking about liquid H2O2 commonly used in pharmacy for disinfecting wounds , the one that fizzles when poured on a wound .

Filip, how good is your swedish?

https://s26.postimg.org/8vspn924p/20180327_172442.jpg
https://s26.postimg.org/jimisohzt/20180327_172812.jpg

It says "Use for desinfection and bleaching". I've used it to desinfect tanks and plants, but never with fish in the tank...

Filip
03-28-2018, 03:24 AM
Sorry Jorg , Min Svenska är dålig :) ,
But if its odorless and transparent waterlike liquid , instead of white thick paste , than that should be it .
And be carefull because it is still a chemical that can burn some softer plants and strip discus slime coat .Start with less on your first try and repeat the treatment a week later if there are still some alge visible .

LoGeek
03-28-2018, 02:46 PM
Sorry Jorg , Min Svenska är dålig :) ,
But if its odorless and transparent waterlike liquid , instead of white thick paste , than that should be it .
And be carefull because it is still a chemical that can burn some softer plants and strip discus slime coat .Start with less on your first try and repeat the treatment a week later if there are still some alge visible .

Ha ha, den är ju riktigt bra!

Thanks for all the help :)

wannafish
03-28-2018, 07:46 PM
I have anubias with my discus. I agree with the above.
Quick fix peroxide. You can take the plants out and soak
in a tub for 15 minutes. Use a toothbrush to remove algae.
I changed my photoperiod to 6 hrs. I tried ferts but all I use
now is excel. co2 is fine. One other thing I did was I made
a screen to put over tank. It lessened the amount of light
going in. That had an surprising effect on the algae growth.

LoGeek
03-29-2018, 03:59 AM
I have anubias with my discus. I agree with the above.
Quick fix peroxide. You can take the plants out and soak
in a tub for 15 minutes. Use a toothbrush to remove algae.
I changed my photoperiod to 6 hrs. I tried ferts but all I use
now is excel. co2 is fine. One other thing I did was I made
a screen to put over tank. It lessened the amount of light
going in. That had an surprising effect on the algae growth.

Do you soke in 3% h2o2 for 15 min? Sounds like a long time. Maybe ok with Anubias but I have Java fern too...

TheRedSpotted
03-30-2018, 11:49 AM
Hi,

Agree with most of the comments :
- Not enough fast growing plants,
- Don't need so frequent fertilizer adds,
May could you also change change the bulb lights. Form experiences tubes need to be replaced each 6-8 month

The use of peroxyde is the best alternative but you need to evacuate the most of ferts excess before by regular waterchanges.
Don't exceed 30% of WC you can proceed during 3-4 consecutiv days.

Massive waterchanges inhibit the effect off CO2 injection and make the parameters variying too much

Kind regards

LoGeek
03-30-2018, 02:20 PM
At least my fish look happier than my plants.

https://s26.postimg.org/ho2bojjk9/20180329_225331.jpg

https://s26.postimg.org/keoh0pkbt/20180321_230222.jpg

LoGeek
03-30-2018, 02:22 PM
Hi,

Agree with most of the comments :
- Not enough fast growing plants,
- Don't need so frequent fertilizer adds,
May could you also change change the bulb lights. Form experiences tubes need to be replaced each 6-8 month

The use of peroxyde is the best alternative but you need to evacuate the most of ferts excess before by regular waterchanges.
Don't exceed 30% of WC you can proceed during 3-4 consecutiv days.

Massive waterchanges inhibit the effect off CO2 injection and make the parameters variying too much

Kind regards

Thank you! I will keep up frequent wc and no fert dosing.

I only have plants that attach to driftwood in this bare bottom tank. Are there any fast growers that do?

LoGeek
03-31-2018, 10:24 AM
About the bioload . I think that 10 discus in a 120 G is an optimal ratio and I would not sell any of your current batch with your given WC routine .

Is it ok with 10 also for forming pairs? They are something like 21 months but have not spawned or formed any pairs, even though they seem very healthy an active.

Do I just need patience or are they too many to start pairing?

Filip
03-31-2018, 12:02 PM
Is it ok with 10 also for forming pairs? They are something like 21 months but have not spawned or formed any pairs, even though they seem very healthy an active.

Do I just need patience or are they too many to start pairing?

I think they should have spawned by now Jorg if there were mixed sex batch .
Almost 2 years with no pairing and spawning activity sounds like all males/ females batch to me .
My current 9 discus batch is about 15 months of age and still no pairing and I doubt about any future chances of pairing at this age .

LoGeek
03-31-2018, 01:20 PM
I think they should have spawned by now Jorg if there were mixed sex batch .
Almost 2 years with no pairing and spawning activity sounds like all males/ females batch to me .
My current 9 discus batch is about 15 months of age and still no pairing and I doubt about any future chances of pairing at this age .

But it seems highly unlikely that a random batch of 10 Stendker fish from different tanks would all be of the same sex...!!

And they were randomly selected by staff at Stendker, not me choosing the largest fish or something like that. They were 4-5cm.

Are there really no other factors that can keep them from spawning or forming pairs?

LoGeek
04-03-2018, 05:14 PM
Your advice was really helpful. After a couple of days with large water changes and no ferts the growth of algae is reduced by at least 90%!

Spraying H2O2 has been interesting. All plants except Java Fern Nana took it well. That one looks burnt, almost black.

I sprayed on different surfaces in the tank and was happt to discover that they are now completely clean. Things that are hard to clean, like air hoses snd filter outlets now look brand new. I will definately be spraying more in the future instead of trying to wipe these things that are hard to reach!

Filip
04-04-2018, 02:47 AM
Your advice was really helpful. After a couple of days with large water changes and no ferts the growth of algae is reduced by at least 90%!

Spraying H2O2 has been interesting. All plants except Java Fern Nana took it well. That one looks burnt, almost black.

I sprayed on different surfaces in the tank and was happt to discover that they are now completely clean. Things that are hard to clean, like air hoses snd filter outlets now look brand new. I will definately be spraying more in the future instead of trying to wipe these things that are hard to reach!

I'm glad it worked Jorg.

How did you spray h2o2 on plants ? On dry while draining the tank or with pump straight in the water ?
Did you use 3% Sol. Or your original 17.5% Sol.?
What treatment duration did you use ?

I know that soft leaved plants can burn and melt , but I didn't expected from Java ferns to do so .

Algae on the other hand don't die instantly IME , but just get burned , change their colour and they slowly die off in the next 4-5 days.

Anyways I'm glad that your beautiful tank is spotless again :) .
Please indulge us again with some more photos from your discus and tank when you can .

TheRedSpotted
04-04-2018, 04:40 AM
I'm glad it worked Jorg.

How did you spray h2o2 on plants ? On dry while draining the tank or with pump straight in the water ?
Did you use 3% Sol. Or your original 17.5% Sol.?
What treatment duration did you use ?

I know that soft leaved plants can burn and melt , but I didn't expected from Java ferns to do so .

Algae on the other hand don't die instantly IME , but just get burned , change their colour and they slowly die off in the next 4-5 days.

Anyways I'm glad that your beautiful tank is spotless again :) .
Please indulge us again with some more photos from your discus and tank when you can .


It burns also the microsorum pteropus.
Leaves turns black and the plant die...

LoGeek
04-04-2018, 05:00 AM
Filip, I diluted to approximately 3-5% in a spray bottle.

Regular Java Fern, Windelöv and Narrow took the treatment well. I guess the Nana is more sensitiv.

I sprayed on all plants above the surface during large water change, so they were treated 5-15 min. The Nana is high up, so that one probably 15 min.

You know the coating that easily builds up around the tank just above surface level and on air hoses to sponge filters? I sprayed everywhere and noticed after some days that all the coating is completely gone. Don't know what algae it is but for sure a nice surprise!

Thank you Filip for your advice and encouragement! :)

LoGeek
04-05-2018, 03:52 PM
Now some of my Anubias Petite have melted, so I've learned that 15min is too long. Will spray right before the plants go under the surface during filling in the future.

Shaun's Discus
06-08-2018, 09:38 AM
Remove the phosphates and you remove the algae, simple, no need for chemicals.