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Second Hand Pat
09-24-2018, 05:55 PM
When you get your box, please document how it arrives. You can start your thread here...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?406-Discus-Grow-Out-Challenger-Contest-2018

Please make only one thread and do all your updates in that thread. If you want to start that thread now, please do, you can introduce yourself, post your empty waiting tank shots and describe a little about how you will raise them and your Discus rearing philosophy.

Al

Thanks Al for doing this and glad everything worked out today!!

So I am Pat and some of you guys know me as a wilds keeper. I recently returned to keeping wilds this summer after attending the NADA show in July. I sent all my wilds away in 2016 due to a crisis with my elderly parents. Things have settled and I decided to get back into discus.

I currently have 10 wilds, four heckels and six wild red adults. The heckels are sub-adults and I am currently growing them out. I believe they have grown for me in the short time I have had them.

So why do I want to join this contest...short answer is I want more practice growing out fry. If you have been around the forum for awhile you might know that I have successfully had my wilds spawn for me and raise their fry so this is not my first rodeo with fry this young. But it is my first rodeo with domestic fry. I do not expect it to make a difference (wild vs domestic) but I do expect the domestic to grow faster with good care.

Not sure I have a "discus rearing philosophy". However with wild discus I prefer to leave the fry with the parents until the fry are 4 to 6 weeks of age. I then separate them and grow them out in a BB tank with lots of food and good clean water. I will do the same with these fry.

So up to now I have cleaned an old 10 gallon which has not been used in about three years. I used vinegar to help remove the lime deposits. There is lots of lime in my well water. :( I also used white paper to cover the bottom, side and back as required by the contest rules. It looks a little ghetto but should work providing I do not get the paper wet. LOL.

I have also restored part of my water change equipment, basely two 44 gallon brute trash containers with new heaters and airstones for aging. Yesterday both containers were taken outside, given a good scrub and are presently filled with aging, heating water. I also replaced the carbon and sediment cartridges in my 20 in canisters. Here's the thread on that http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108714-Summer-of-Unhappy-Fishes&highlight=unhappy+fishes. I run all the water I use with the fish thru the 20 in canisters.

So tonight the 10 gallon is full, running an airstone and heater. Temp is 84. Tomorrow I will test all the water parameters. I do not normally do this but needed for the contest. Here's the tank. I am also currently running the smallest AC HOB filter. If I can slow the flow I may left it on the tank. Al recommended to not run this filter with fry this young. This filter would be an excellent place of the foam Al is providing for bio-media. I also want to thank Al for providing the fry for this contest. I am honored for the chance to grow they out. Thank you Al :D

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Second Hand Pat
09-25-2018, 03:24 PM
I want to slow the flow on the AC filter so I did a little DIY with some quilt batting and built a weir to soften the flow of water back into the tank. It actually seems to work pretty well.

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and with a prefilter on the inlet we may be set to use the AC filter with the fry.

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I also added a sponge filter from another tank. Cleaned it really well but there always seems to be a little gunk left. I will siphon that out later and may top off the tank with a little RO water. While I do not have an RO unit for the fish I do have an under the sink RO unit for drinking water. One concern I have is Al's fry not liking my water. However I will measure the water parameters first.

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Second Hand Pat
09-25-2018, 05:18 PM
I had to order a new API master testkit. I figured what I had was too old. Measured ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and TDS. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate were zero as I expected. ph was between 8.2 and 8.3. TDS was 225 which is right for this time of year. In the pics the ammonia appears a tab muddy but if I hold it to the light it is bright yellow.

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You can see the ph a bit better in this pic
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Hard to take a pic with one hand.
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Adam S
09-25-2018, 05:46 PM
Hi Pat,
What's the concern with your tap? Unless it's full of metal, I'd gladly take those numbers over what we have here.

Second Hand Pat
09-25-2018, 06:18 PM
Hi Adam, I lost a set of fry (small spawn from wild parents) when I moved them from tank water (230 gallon) to the same 10 gallon tank I am using for this challenge. The tank on the 230 was most likely fairly soft with a lower ph. When I moved the fry into the 10 gallon they went all zombie like. I conferred with Al and he thought it was alkalinity poisoning. I ended up culling the whole mess. I know that will not happen here as Al's well water is somewhat similar to mine but I still worry...I know...silly. :(
Pat

Tshethar
09-25-2018, 11:51 PM
Pat, I'm paying attention to what you're doing. I reserve the right to steal ideas I like!!! (That is going to be my discus raising philosophy!) The slow-flow weir is fabulously creative, whether you stay with it or not. I'm also noting your use of the seasoned sponge. Best of luck!

Second Hand Pat
09-26-2018, 06:30 AM
Pat, I'm paying attention to what you're doing. I reserve the right to steal ideas I like!!! (That is going to be my discus raising philosophy!) The slow-flow weir is fabulously creative, whether you stay with it or not. I'm also noting your use of the seasoned sponge. Best of luck!

Bill, steal any ideas you want. :) The weir idea really worked. I hope it doesn't get in the way of water changes.
Pat

danotaylor
09-26-2018, 07:51 AM
Pat can I assume that since you are using a mature sponge from a different set up that you do not believe that pathogens can be passed in that manner? The curious wondering of a discus returnee.
Thanks mate.
Danny

Second Hand Pat
09-26-2018, 12:54 PM
Hi Danny, that is absolutely a possibility and a risk. At the same time I believe fry can not take any ammonia etc in their water. Either way we shall see how it goes. :)
Pat

Tshethar
09-26-2018, 11:19 PM
Hi Pat, I'm going to be contemplating these issues as well as we go... raised an eyebrow on this, too, but I may follow suit if the sponge we get seems insufficient to establish the tank.

danotaylor
09-27-2018, 12:05 AM
Hi Danny, that is absolutely a possibility and a risk. At the same time I believe fry can not take any ammonia etc in their water. Either way we shall see how it goes. :)
Pat

Thanks for answering Pat. I appreciate it. All the best to you on your grow out challenge!!

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 01:08 PM
The box arrived 12:17pm. Box was warm to the touch, dry on the outside and in good condition.

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Heat pack in the middle and black item is foam. Inside box temp read 90 based on an infared themometer and bag temp was 90.

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sanjay21
09-27-2018, 01:18 PM
Packing is on point!! great job Al !!

Good luck Pat :)

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 01:22 PM
By the time I had stacked the bags for a picture the bag temp had cooled to 86.

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So I hurried to get the bags into the tank so they did not cool down to fast. The fish seems pretty lively in the bag. Once the bag temp matched the tank temp I cut each bag (fish were double bagged) and eased the fish into a net (these guys are tiny) and eased them into the tank (drop and plop). No bag water in the tank.

The strain in the tank is rooibos tea just to darken the water a bit. I do this with all my wild fish. No lights. You can see their fins are clamped a bit and have one under the heater. Now to let them recover from shipping. No sure when I will try to introduce food. I would like to see them looking for food before trying.

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Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 01:24 PM
Packing is on point!! great job Al !!

Good luck Pat :)

Hi Sanjay, packing was spot on. :) Thank Al for a great packing job. :D
Pat

brewmaster15
09-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Pat I would suggest 1-2 tablespoons of salt to the water as well. It may help.

al

brewmaster15
09-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Hi Sanjay, packing was spot on. :) Thank Al for a great packing job. :D
Pat

:o blisters were worth it then I guess,;)

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 02:14 PM
Pat I would suggest 1-2 tablespoons of salt to the water as well. It may help.

al

Thanks Al, I added that. Some of these guys are already starting to peck on the bottom so I added a tiny amount of the food you included Al and they are pecking at that. I will vacuum that up a bit later. Also thanks for the foam. Very generous piece Al :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 02:35 PM
:o blisters were worth it then I guess,;)

Definitely Al, hope they heal quickly!
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 03:27 PM
A little video to show the little guys pecking off the bottom. Tails are still a bit closed but one guy hiding under the heater.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Zu99fTk-0

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 04:19 PM
Now they are collecting in the corner next to where I enter the room so guessing they are hungry. I have a "fish dedicated" coffee grinder so I grind up three FDBWs cubes into "fines" (into tiny bits of loose FDBW bits). Placed a pinch into a small container of hot water to allow the bits to adsorb water and sink to the bottom of the container. Then I take a small syringe with a bit of flexible airline hose and place that over the tip of the syringe. Now I can suck up the bits which have collected at the bottom of the container into the syringe. For a little more precision add a couple inch piece of rigid tubing to the end of the flexible airline hose and you can feed tiny amounts of those bits by adding a wee amount to just above the fish.

They are starting to peck little bits and hopefully soon will be eating with gusto.
Pat

Willie
09-27-2018, 04:53 PM
They look super, Pat. Hope mine makes it. :(

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 04:56 PM
They look super, Pat. Hope mine makes it. :(

Thanks Willie, I hope yours and everyone's else make it.
Pat

Disgirl
09-27-2018, 05:00 PM
Glad to hear you got yours Pat and that they are doing OK. I have been worried about all these 11 boxes of baby discus I will follow your thread. I hope rest of the fish arrive safely to the others.
Barb

Filip
09-27-2018, 07:41 PM
Great start Pat .
I would like to see a photo or maybe even video if possible of that syringe with tubing and how you perform this baby feeding with it .
Also I would like to learn (this QT is maybe for Al) , why it's recommendable to put salt on the new arived fish . Is it just to heal the potential ammonia burn from the trip or is there something else too ?
And you noticed clamped fins Al before you recommended salt .What does clamped fins means in this case ?

And sorry for all this QTs right from the start Folks :)

Good luck with them Pat and Al you've done a hell of a job packing them with all the safety precautions.

brewmaster15
09-27-2018, 08:28 PM
Hi Filip,
Sodium is important to the fishes body and gills actively move sodium so its thought when your fish are stressed the addition of salt makes it easier for them to function. It also sooths irritated gills and can help prevent secondary infection. It prevents nitrite poisoning in new tanks as well. Its not something thats recommended when you get new fish but its the first line of treatment I use for stressed fish.. whether they are new or not. 1 tablespoon per 10 gals can help alot. Its also not something you do all the time.. I consider it like a medicine.

Clamped fins in this case could be from netting and then the travel.... the handling of fish strips off slime coat and can open the fish to secondary infection. Its not uncommon for fish to have some damage to their fins when netted, bagged,boxed, and netted again and tanked.:)

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 10:11 PM
Great start Pat .
I would like to see a photo or maybe even video if possible of that syringe with tubing and how you perform this baby feeding with it .
Also I would like to learn (this QT is maybe for Al) , why it's recommendable to put salt on the new arived fish . Is it just to heal the potential ammonia burn from the trip or is there something else too ?
And you noticed clamped fins Al before you recommended salt .What does clamped fins means in this case ?

And sorry for all this QTs right from the start Folks :)

Good luck with them Pat and Al you've done a hell of a job packing them with all the safety precautions.

Thanks Filip, did Al answer all your questions regarding the use of salt and clamped fins? Also I will be happy to take a picture and/or video with the syringe. Taking a video one handed may be a little difficult but I will try. :D

I was away for dinner tonight, my local camera club had it's annual banquet. The fry are doing very well tonight. I offered a wee amount of the food Al sent with the fry and everyone is eating. The small one who was hiding early today is out and about. I will attempt a small cleanup of the bottom of the tank with some water replacement. Perhaps replace the salt if needed.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-27-2018, 11:01 PM
I did a 25% water change tonight. Wanted to see how they would accept new water. Wasnít a big deal, they went right back into grazing mode after everything settled.


http://youtu.be/fGpPT1uOW2Q

modealings
09-27-2018, 11:13 PM
Looking great Pat!

danotaylor
09-27-2018, 11:27 PM
they look happy as larry Pat...whoever larry is ;)

Filip
09-28-2018, 02:48 AM
Al thanks for the thorough explanation on salt and fins .
Looking great on that video Pat. Nice work adjusting them . If video is inconvenient , photos would suffice to me in understanding your baby feeding method .

Second Hand Pat
09-28-2018, 08:49 AM
Al thanks for the thorough explanation on salt and fins .
Looking great on that video Pat. Nice work adjusting them . If video is inconvenient , photos would suffice to me in understanding your baby feeding method .

Here you go Filip. The first pic is the syringe with the airline attached. The container on the left is clean water. The container on the right has submerged FDBW bits in warm water. I stirred the bits so they are in the center of the container. Makes them easier to suck into the syringe.

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Now I suck up the bits and allow the bits to settle. Note the difference in water clarity between the two containers.

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After the bits have settled I then push out the extra water from the syringe leaving the bits in the syringe and suck up some of the clean water from the water only container. I think this helps to keep the tank water cleaner especially in such a small tank.

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Here's a vid with the bits added to the tank. I tried to do it one handed but scared the fry. Note the little guys in the back darting about. Hope that is not a developing issue.


http://youtu.be/w2LuC9oR1BE

Filip
09-28-2018, 08:56 AM
Thanks Pat . And I guess that long tubing is used to inject the food right on the tank floor instead on the surface right ?

Second Hand Pat
09-28-2018, 09:36 AM
Thanks Pat . And I guess that long tubing is used to inject the food right on the tank floor instead on the surface right ?

Yes Filip, I prefer to gently add the bits above the fry and let it settle around them. In this small tank I might need to turn off the AC or feed on the other side so the fry get the food vs the filter.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-28-2018, 11:10 AM
Did several small feedings this morning and just completed a 80% water change. Used a small diameter hose to clean the bottom and pull the water from the tank. It emptied into a five gallon bucket which I had to empty twice. I refilled the tank by filling a pitcher from my aged water bin. Used one end of the tank for the fill so the fry didn't get kicked about too much.

My pump for moving water from the aging bin is a mag 9.0 which moves some serious water. Way too much for a 10 gallon with fry IMO.
Pat

ps; Driving over to the daughter's house to puppy and horse sit today and to night. The fry will be feed next mid morning tomorrow.

Mr.BigBlock
09-28-2018, 02:31 PM
Nice!

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 10:52 AM
Nice!

Thank you 2ljd :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 10:55 AM
I returned about 9:30am and checked everyone...happy and looking for food. In the vid you can see everyone grazing etc. The one under the sponge did not care for the large black thing recording it's every move.


http://youtu.be/Tv4nkIajy1Q

Paul Sabucchi
09-29-2018, 12:33 PM
Glad the fish made it ok, really happy for you and Al (and give my regards to the aforementioned Larry)

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 01:51 PM
Glad the fish made it ok, really happy for you and Al (and give my regards to the aforementioned Larry)

Thanks Paul, be happy to give your regards to Larry if only Daniel will tell me who he is lol :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 02:27 PM
Almost 100% water change. I am not quite ready to lay them on their side yet. :)

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Hose and bucket for draining the tank. The small diameter hose does not create a strong current.

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Water change bin. Looks nasty :) Need a better picture.

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Checked the ammonia prior to the WC. Tank is on the right. Clean water left for comparison.

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Time to replace the weir.

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All full again and they are hiding :(

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rickztahone
09-29-2018, 03:33 PM
Looking good Pat. Nice erect fins and color looks very nice. I miss my group of little ones. I threw my group of 25 right in to a 75g w/ a 40g sump, remember? lol. Sounds crazy but it worked perfectly for me. Granted, doing 80% WC's was WAY more labor intensive than if I had gone with a smaller tank, but I was fine with that. Plus, almost everything was automated to an extent. WC's would take me 15minutes from drain to fill.

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 05:48 PM
Looking good Pat. Nice erect fins and color looks very nice. I miss my group of little ones. I threw my group of 25 right in to a 75g w/ a 40g sump, remember? lol. Sounds crazy but it worked perfectly for me. Granted, doing 80% WC's was WAY more labor intensive than if I had gone with a smaller tank, but I was fine with that. Plus, almost everything was automated to an extent. WC's would take me 15minutes from drain to fill.

Thanks Ricardo :) I bet you do miss your guys. I will move these guys to a 40 breeder in a couple weeks and they will stay there for a while. 75 will be the next upgrade which should set them until the end of the contest.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-29-2018, 06:40 PM
I will try and do pictures as these guys age. Pictures are a bit dark and grainy but give an idea. I am using a mini-led used for macro photography but have it on low so they can get use to the light.

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Tshethar
09-29-2018, 09:58 PM
Wow, Pat! Your photography skills are off the charts as far as I'm concerned. This looks like two scenes from two genres of film: comedy on the top, drama on the bottom. If only we spoke discus and could pick up the dialogue...

Filip
09-30-2018, 07:14 AM
Great macro shots Pat .

Second Hand Pat
09-30-2018, 12:46 PM
Wow, Pat! Your photography skills are off the charts as far as I'm concerned. This looks like two scenes from two genres of film: comedy on the top, drama on the bottom. If only we spoke discus and could pick up the dialogue...

What Bill, you do not speak discus? :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-30-2018, 12:47 PM
Great macro shots Pat .

Thanks Filip :)

Snake on the right. Turq in the middle. They might be developing some eye color.

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Tshethar
09-30-2018, 02:22 PM
What Bill, you do not speak discus? :D
Pat

Lol! ;) Well, I know they're talking to me, but all I get so far is either "I'm hungry" or "This water sucks!". :argue:

Second Hand Pat
09-30-2018, 03:55 PM
Lol! ;) Well, I know they're talking to me, but all I get so far is either "I'm hungry" or "This water sucks!". :argue:

Exactly...this is hungry :)


http://youtu.be/cobn_UKnQtQ

modealings
09-30-2018, 04:51 PM
Awesome photos Pat!

Jody
09-30-2018, 06:08 PM
Thanks Filip :)

Snake on the right. Turq in the middle. They might be developing some eye color.

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Great shot! Are all of them eating well?

Second Hand Pat
09-30-2018, 08:16 PM
Awesome photos Pat!

Thanks Eric :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
09-30-2018, 08:16 PM
Great shot! Are all of them eating well?

Thanks Jody and yes, they are all eating. :D
Pat

danotaylor
09-30-2018, 11:22 PM
Looking good Pat! Cool lookin lil fellas. Love the zoomy guy in the "hungry" vid. So far so goodness ;)

Second Hand Pat
10-01-2018, 06:55 AM
Looking good Pat! Cool lookin lil fellas. Love the zoomy guy in the "hungry" vid. So far so goodness ;)

Thanks Daniel, the "zoomy" guy is the larger turquoise in the group and the fish in the center of the picture in post #48. I think he is going to want to be the boss as the fish mature.
Pat

brady
10-01-2018, 08:37 AM
Pat
I thought all the fish in the challenge were snake skins.
Did I miss something?
Jay

Second Hand Pat
10-01-2018, 09:15 AM
Pat
I thought all the fish in the challenge were snake skins.
Did I miss something?
Jay

Hi Brady, if you reread Al's stickie thread at the top of this forum you will see Al mentions that the fry he sent consists of snakeskins and blue turquoise. ATM I have two turqs in my batch but can't tell on the smaller ones yet.
Pat

Maxx24
10-01-2018, 10:15 AM
Awesome photos!

Second Hand Pat
10-01-2018, 04:40 PM
Awesome photos!

Thank you Max :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-01-2018, 04:56 PM
Sort of falling into a routine with these guys; several small feedings a day (FDBWs fines and Al's crumble which came with the fry). They definitely prefer the fines over the crumble. A water change midday and one at night...50 to 90%. Still doing the bucket/pitcher water changes but I am eyeballing a length of 1/2 inch vinyl hosing which is the perfect length. Just need to clean up the pump and I am good to go.

Starting to see quite a bit of pushing so the aggression is amping up and lots of little tiny poops are the normal when siphoning out the tank. Here's a vid of the pushing.


http://youtu.be/EOSVy8SyBo8

I taped a nickel to the side of the glass to hopefully show growth over time.

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Pat

danotaylor
10-01-2018, 09:58 PM
they look great Pat! Clever idea with the nickel :idea:

Second Hand Pat
10-02-2018, 07:26 AM
they look great Pat! Clever idea with the nickel :idea:

Thanks Daniel, I have done that previously with fry. I will be happy to replace that with a quarter when the time comes.
Pat

Pices
10-02-2018, 08:56 AM
I’m really enjoying this thread especially all your innovative ideas. Your videos and pics are excellent. It must feel rewarding to see how spunky they are.
Patty

Second Hand Pat
10-02-2018, 03:38 PM
I’m really enjoying this thread especially all your innovative ideas. Your videos and pics are excellent. It must feel rewarding to see how spunky they are.
Patty

Thank you Patty :D Yes, I love it when fry are doing well. :D :D

I have another idea to share with you Bill. I cleaned up my pump so I could add water directly to the tank vs the pitcher. I have a length of 1/2 vinyl hose which is the perfect length. So I have a small square of black foam very similar to what Al sent with the fry. The foam has a fairly open pore and about three inches (or so) thick. I pressed the foam against the glass in the fry tank with the end of the hose pressed into the foam and turned on the water. Worked perfect for not have water going all over the tank. Now I do have a button which controls turning on and off the pump. :D No more pitcher fills! :D One last note, be sure the foam is clean otherwise you have gunk all over the tank.
Pat

Tshethar
10-02-2018, 03:49 PM
Thanks, Pat... That's a good idea and I just bought some Poret to use in different applications (along with my mini cube filter), so I might give that a try. I'm still kind of happy with my colander, though... my time is more limited midweek so I have to pick and choose what, if anything, I can play around with... Glad you found a way to save yourself some time and not stress out the fish! :)

Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 04:16 PM
Did a 90+ water change midday and here's how the hose end in a bit of foam looks. The reason for this is so the fry aren't dealing with a lot of current.

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Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 04:46 PM
Hey Al smirk at this :D


http://youtu.be/z-M-HiLjGFo

jeep
10-03-2018, 05:09 PM
That's it! I'm getting some tea!!!

Pices
10-03-2018, 05:26 PM
Did a 90+ water change midday and here's how the hose end in a bit of foam looks. The reason for this is so the fry aren't dealing with a lot of current.

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I love this! You are an idea gal!
Patty

rickztahone
10-03-2018, 07:47 PM
That's it! I'm getting some tea!!!

So you can sit and watch the tank whilst you sip tea? Lol

jeep
10-03-2018, 08:38 PM
So you can sit and watch the tank whilst you sip tea? Lol

Her fish drink it as well :D It makes them hungry ;)

Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 09:43 PM
I love this! You are an idea gal!
Patty

Thanks Patty :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 09:43 PM
Her fish drink it as well :D It makes them hungry ;)

:thumbsup:

Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 09:49 PM
So the fry were looking great today. I went to put them to bed and saw this.


http://youtu.be/CBiL8XViRF0

I am not sure what is going on unless the guy got a bit of FDBW which was not fully hydrated. All the FDBW bit sunk on to the bottom so do not think is it. Perhaps it ate too much? I went back after the video and it looked better. Hopefully all will be well in the morning.
Pat

Adam S
10-03-2018, 10:23 PM
Pat, is its side okay? Not sure if it's the light or something, but it looks like it got scraped.

rickztahone
10-03-2018, 10:33 PM
Looks like it got stuck in the heater?

Second Hand Pat
10-03-2018, 10:38 PM
Pat, is its side okay? Not sure if it's the light or something, but it looks like it got scraped.

Not sure Adam, the side does look weird.


Looks like it got stuck in the heater?

That is interesting idea Ricardo. I will take a look at the heater in the morning.
Pat

Tshethar
10-03-2018, 10:48 PM
Sorry to see that, Pat. :( Here's hoping it will clear up quickly.

I think Ricardo's theory is a good one; not much else one could imagine it being in a tank like this.

I've never tried that type of heater but if it is one of the Finnex titanium varieties with the guards, isn't it the case that a lot of people recommend removing the plastic? (More for performance issues rather than for things like this, but at least it would follow that it should do fine (or better) without it.) Thought I remembered reading that on the forum.

Second Hand Pat
10-04-2018, 09:10 AM
Sorry to see that, Pat. :( Here's hoping it will clear up quickly.

I think Ricardo's theory is a good one; not much else one could imagine it being in a tank like this.

I've never tried that type of heater but if it is one of the Finnex titanium varieties with the guards, isn't it the case that a lot of people recommend removing the plastic? (More for performance issues rather than for things like this, but at least it would follow that it should do fine (or better) without it.) Thought I remembered reading that on the forum.

Thank Bill, It is the Finnex titanium with an analog controller. I will be taking a closer look at the guard.

So I can't tell which fish was the affected fish from last night video but a few of the fish stilled a bit lack luster this morning (perhaps they were not quite awake). I did a 50% water change and fed them FDBW fines and they are all eating. I will monitor them today to ensure nothing is up with them...yea I know, full mother hen alert lol.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-04-2018, 11:42 AM
I do not think this is the same fish from last night...A week in and all hell is breaking loose. :( I added some salt prior to the video and that seems to have helped.


http://youtu.be/6hdLZJqd-P0

PS; check ammonia and nitrite and both zero.

Second Hand Pat
10-04-2018, 04:41 PM
So...

1. Siphoned the tank bottom for the large stuff.
2. Pulled the sponge filter and give it a good rinse.
3. Pulled the prefilter and foam from the AC filter and give it a rinse.
4. Added the sponge filter back in and siphoned the tank down to the 10% or so mark.
5. Replaced the weir in the AC filter, old one was pretty dirty.

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6. Fill the tank and add a bit of salt and some rooibos tea.
7. Guess what zombie guy is eating, a little but I will take it.

Zombie guy is the one I am trying to keep in the middle of the vid with the large crooked bars. He has a tab bit of white on the back of the dorsal fin. I think it might be alright on the long run. Time will tell.


http://youtu.be/A_0wUbeCutQ

jeep
10-04-2018, 05:11 PM
I think zombie looks great!!

Second Hand Pat
10-04-2018, 05:13 PM
I think zombie looks great!!

Thanks Brian...I just realized I have named the darn fish. :(
Pat

brewmaster15
10-05-2018, 11:11 AM
So the fry were looking great today. I went to put them to bed and saw this.


http://youtu.be/CBiL8XViRF0

I am not sure what is going on unless the guy got a bit of FDBW which was not fully hydrated. All the FDBW bit sunk on to the bottom so do not think is it. Perhaps it ate too much? I went back after the video and it looked better. Hopefully all will be well in the morning.
Pat

Pat that did looks like a heater burn... but that may be because of too much/too big pieces of food,,if it has trouble swimming and leans up on the heater.... If you see that happen again, try some epsom salt and really grind up the food. If you look at the other challengers some are feeding Baby Brine shrimp.. That tells you how small you can go for the grinding... but just be careful to not feed too much..

HTH,
al

Second Hand Pat
10-05-2018, 01:41 PM
Pat that did looks like a heater burn... but that may be because of too much/too big pieces of food,,if it has trouble swimming and leans up on the heater.... If you see that happen again, try some epsom salt and really grind up the food. If you look at the other challengers some are feeding Baby Brine shrimp.. That tells you how small you can go for the grinding... but just be careful to not feed too much..

HTH,
al

Thanks Al, that fish did recover and the next day I could not tell which fish it was. I think I have the size right but just a little too large of feedings. I have since cut back on the amount :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-05-2018, 09:37 PM
I was away all this morning and feed this afternoon. Then went away for dinner and this is a couple minutes after a 50% water change. Pacing the tank for food...love it. Seem to be back on track with all the fry including zombie fish.


http://youtu.be/6FOFhVUU7es

I hung around to see how long it took them to finish most of the food and this is about 20 minutes after feeding.

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Filip
10-08-2018, 05:34 AM
I just went through what I've missed in your thread and your ups and downs Pat .
Im glad you've sort it all out and I wonder what do you think was the reason for their lost vigour ? Was it lowered water quallity because of dirty filters or maybe overeating and bloat of the fry ?

And I got one more for Al maybe about it's fry.
Are those odd ball turqs some " Recessive gene " (I'm not even sure I use this term correctly ) meaning that some parent/ grandparent of the SS pair was Turq and now this fry carries the same gene ?

Good luck Pat and I hope that all your problems with this fry will be summarized to this little drawback .

Willie
10-08-2018, 07:40 AM
Are those odd ball turqs some " Recessive gene " (I'm not even sure I use this term correctly ) meaning that some parent/ grandparent of the SS pair was Turq and now this fry carries the same gene ?

In my experience, all snakeskins throw turks. Even pigeon snakeskin types will throw 9-line fish. Most likely the snakeskin alleles are only semi-dominant.

Willie

Second Hand Pat
10-08-2018, 07:58 AM
I just went through what I've missed in your thread and your ups and downs Pat .
Im glad you've sort it all out and I wonder what do you think was the reason for their lost vigour ? Was it lowered water quallity because of dirty filters or maybe overeating and bloat of the fry ?

Hi Filip, I broke out the part of your post which applies to me. If you look above Willie addressed the type of fry SS throw. As for whether it was food or dirty filters I am not really sure. Since I was having issues I simply did all I could to remedy the situation. The fry did not seem "full" to me. However twice yesterday when I left the crumble in the tank for an hour or more one of the smaller fry would be a tad dark and hiding under the heater. So that could either be food or dirty water.

So until they are larger any crumble will be removed after 20 mins and I am only feeding enough of the FDBW fines that they can eat in five minutes or so. Since I am retired I do feed more often, about every two hours or so.
Pat

Pices
10-08-2018, 08:23 AM
If I ever die under suspicious circumstances, I want you on my case! Ha ha Great detective work Pat! I’m not sure I’d have noticed one turning a little dark. I didn’t think zombies could be cured either, but you did that too! Glad all is well again.
Patty

Second Hand Pat
10-08-2018, 02:01 PM
If I ever die under suspicious circumstances, I want you on my case! Ha ha Great detective work Pat! I’m not sure I’d have noticed one turning a little dark. I didn’t think zombies could be cured either, but you did that too! Glad all is well again.
Patty

Thanks for the vote of confidence Patty but My Zombie can back, same fish. So I repeated what I did last week. Filter clean, prefilter clean, tank wipedown and almost 100% water change. Now waiting to see how it responds. Here's a video right after the water change. Everyone else is whizzing around the tank like they have not been feed all day.


http://youtu.be/0J3d5M71KnE

Filip
10-08-2018, 02:24 PM
It looks like Mr. Zombie is prone to bloating and constipating Pat . The Poop on the pic looks bigger than him , that poor little fellow.

Second Hand Pat
10-08-2018, 02:29 PM
It looks like Mr. Zombie is prone to bloating and constipating Pat . The Poop on the pic looks bigger than him , that poor little fellow.

Good observation Filip :) Perhaps some Epsom salt will help.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-08-2018, 02:35 PM
It looks like Mr. Zombie is prone to bloating and constipating Pat . The Poop on the pic looks bigger than him , that poor little fellow.

I took another look at the fish and that is actually his pelvic fin. It’s just dark.
Pat.

Pices
10-08-2018, 04:17 PM
My only suggestion is changing his name to spunky or gusto or lively. He needs a new name-zombie isn’t cutting it!
Patty

Second Hand Pat
10-09-2018, 05:00 PM
My only suggestion is changing his name to spunky or gusto or lively. He needs a new name-zombie isn’t cutting it!
Patty

LOL Patty, let's try Boss. I actually expected it to be the main pusher of the group. Maybe it can live up to that over time. :)

So seeing Bryan's fish over the last couple days suggested to me that I need to do something different. The FDBW fines and crumble pellets are not cutting it. Fry do the most growth in the first three months of life if conditions are right. So yesterday I ordered BBS eggs from Amazon with one day shipping and dusted off my hatchery this morning. The eggs have been cooking since noon and should hatch tomorrow. I will show how I harvest the BBS if there is any interest. I need to review my old fry threads if I can find them.
Pat

warblad79
10-09-2018, 05:20 PM
LOL Patty, let's try Boss. I actually expected it to be the main pusher of the group. Maybe it can live up to that over time. :)

So seeing Bryan's fish over the last couple days suggested to me that I need to do something different. The FDBW fines and crumble pellets are not cutting it. Fry do the most growth in the first three months of life if conditions are right. So yesterday I ordered BBS eggs from Amazon with one day shipping and dusted off my hatchery this morning. The eggs have been cooking since noon and should hatch tomorrow. I will show how I harvest the BBS if there is any interest. I need to review my old fry threads if I can find them.
Pat

Nice going, it's not too late to catch up.

danotaylor
10-09-2018, 06:20 PM
Great Pat, definitely interested in learning how you do the BBS hatching & harvesting!!

Second Hand Pat
10-09-2018, 08:15 PM
Nice going, it's not too late to catch up.

Hope not Bryan :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-09-2018, 08:16 PM
Great Pat, definitely interested in learning how you do the BBS hatching & harvesting!!

You are on Daniel :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-09-2018, 08:26 PM
Yes Tonight I made sure that I make the fines really fine lol. They almost have a belly tonight.


http://youtu.be/-bs2gWDisxA

sanjay21
10-09-2018, 09:15 PM
They are looking fat and active :D

Pices
10-09-2018, 09:28 PM
Looks like Boss likes his new name! Way to go Pat! I’m also interested in seeing how to hatch baby brine.
Patty

danotaylor
10-09-2018, 10:48 PM
You are on Daniel :)
Pat
Great!! Excited to learn. If I ever get fry I want to be ready!
Cheers Pat ☺

Filip
10-10-2018, 03:34 AM
Pat are they stuffed with live BBS on this video ?
How long did you left BBS In the hatchery before harvesting and did you freezed them before feeding or threw them directly to the tank ?

I've notice the better growth on Brian's discus too and I wonder if got that from feeding with Live BBS exclusively or as an addition to other foods too ?

Second Hand Pat
10-10-2018, 01:25 PM
Pat are they stuffed with live BBS on this video ?
How long did you left BBS In the hatchery before harvesting and did you freezed them before feeding or threw them directly to the tank ?

I've notice the better growth on Brian's discus too and I wonder if got that from feeding with Live BBS exclusively or as an addition to other foods too ?

They were eating the FDBW fines Filip which were about the size of dust. So I feed a bit more then normal. I will go thru my BBS routine next post.
Pat

danotaylor
10-10-2018, 01:28 PM
I will go thru my BBS routine next post.
Pat
:drummer::guitarist::bandana:

Second Hand Pat
10-10-2018, 02:56 PM
Right after adding the BBS...

http://youtu.be/QUgv8NGlUgY

30 mins later...

http://youtu.be/nHC1vVkxPgQ

Filip
10-10-2018, 05:15 PM
WOW . They got stuffed all right Pat :)

Second Hand Pat
10-11-2018, 01:14 PM
Alright, first here is a pic of my BBS hatchery. I bought this a couple years ago while I was still working. Time was importance and with DIY hatcheries skill with a turkey baster is needed. I am all thumbs with a turkey baster. In this pic the hatchery is already cooking BBS. There is about a 1.5 liters of water with a table spoon (or so) of salt. There are about two teaspoons of eggs. At the end of the flexible tubing coming off the air pump is a bit if rigid tubing. One end of the rigid tubing is attached to the end of the flexible tubing and the other end sits in a shallow round hole in the interior at the base of the hatchery. This is to ensure that none of the eggs sit in the base of the hatchery and all eggs are tumbled in the air bubbles.

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At the top of the hatchery is a plastic container (used under a plant to handle water drips/overflow). There is a hole in the middle which holds the tubing in the center of the hatchery. At the base/bottom of the hatchery is a spigot which is used to drain the hatchery after the eggs have hatched.

Here's a video of the hatched BBS after about 24 hours. Not sure you can see them. The air pump is turned off so you see the BBS.


http://youtu.be/h4QOIuRkyH0

Second Hand Pat
10-11-2018, 05:08 PM
The official Rules:

1) The contest is a 8 month commitment at the minimium. We reserve the right to carry to a maximum 1 year .

2) You must start these fish in a 10 gal tank,using sponge filters and covered on 3 sides and bottom. It must be a bare bottom tank. You must use Aged water at a Temperature of 82 F to 85 F . For the first 2 weeks I would suggest you maintain them in the 10 gal tank. They must be alone. No other fish present. After that you can do as you want but must document it.

I received the fry on September 27 and have maintained they in a 10 gallon BB tank for the past two weeks as required by rule 2. So today I cleaned up a 40 breeder and have set it up for the fry. It is BB and has a foam divider to keep the fry contained to a small space. I have moved one of the fry over to the 40 breeder to ensure the foam is aquarium safe.

While the foam came from an aquarium supplier and received good reviews. I noted that it is make in China. Some items which have come from China are not what it is suppose to be so adding one fry to the new tank is simply a precaution. If all is well after dinner I will move the rest of the fry over.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-11-2018, 08:14 PM
Here's the one fry in the new tank setup.

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The group in their new digs.

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A vid of everyone...


http://youtu.be/LcIpvbx244A

Second Hand Pat
10-11-2018, 09:50 PM
To answer Al's question the fry basically wake up and go to bed when I do. I'm generally up between 6 to 8 or so am and in bed somewhere between 10 and midnight. Nice being retired.
Pat

Adam S
10-11-2018, 10:22 PM
Fish are looking great, Pat. It's always cute seeing babies "kiss the water" when eating bbs.

Concerning the foam, do you plan on using the divider like a Mattenfilter too?

Filip
10-12-2018, 03:36 AM
Nice explanation on your BBS hatchery Pat.

So you basically drain the whole batch 24 hours after you start the hatch (in the egg yolk phase )and get a new one going while you sieve and freeze the first batch right ?
Or you feed it straight from hatchery without freezing it ?

I like Adams idea of using that diveder sponge for Hamburg -matten filtration. It's a vast surface area for biological filtration and BB colonies .

snxtif
10-12-2018, 04:59 AM
I have moved one of the fry over to the 40 breeder to ensure the foam is aquarium safe.

While the foam came from an aquarium supplier and received good reviews. I noted that it is make in China. Some items which have come from China are not what it is suppose to be so adding one fry to the new tank is simply a precaution.

That fry is a real soldier.
And made-in-China products' reputation is on his shoulders! (fin?)

modealings
10-12-2018, 06:50 AM
Pat one question I've always had with the hatcheries is how do you keep the temperature up? I think a lot of packets of BBS eggs say to hatch at 80+ degrees. Do you just hatch at room temp with a slightly lower yield or have you not found this to be a problem? I guess another trick ive seen in putting the hatchery in a heated 10 gal tank however seems like a lot of extra set up.

danotaylor
10-12-2018, 08:37 AM
Pat when you open the spigot do you allow the water to run into a fine net to capture the baby brine shrimp? How do you deal with the egg casings in any unhatched eggs? Thanks Pat!

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 12:30 PM
Fish are looking great, Pat. It's always cute seeing babies "kiss the water" when eating bbs.

Concerning the foam, do you plan on using the divider like a Mattenfilter too?

Hi Adam, my intention is to use it as a divider but it could surely be a Mattenfilter also.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 02:27 PM
Nice explanation on your BBS hatchery Pat.

So you basically drain the whole batch 24 hours after you start the hatch (in the egg yolk phase )and get a new one going while you sieve and freeze the first batch right ?
Or you feed it straight from hatchery without freezing it ?

I like Adams idea of using that diveder sponge for Hamburg -matten filtration. It's a vast surface area for biological filtration and BB colonies .

Yes Filip, I actually did not finish that post and will later today. I drain the contents of the hatchery into two 1 liter bottles and from there pour the contents into a very fine coffee filter which is fine enough to contain the BBS. I also pour off most the water and replace with fresh water. From there the BBS go into the frig.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 02:28 PM
That fry is a real soldier.
And made-in-China products' reputation is on his shoulders! (fin?)

He was ready for food and his buddies Cyrus :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 02:30 PM
Pat one question I've always had with the hatcheries is how do you keep the temperature up? I think a lot of packets of BBS eggs say to hatch at 80+ degrees. Do you just hatch at room temp with a slightly lower yield or have you not found this to be a problem? I guess another trick ive seen in putting the hatchery in a heated 10 gal tank however seems like a lot of extra set up.

Eric, the hatchery is in a little room off the garage which houses my QTs. The heaters from the tanks keep the room about 80ish. The hatchery water stays about 82.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 02:42 PM
Pat when you open the spigot do you allow the water to run into a fine net to capture the baby brine shrimp? How do you deal with the egg casings in any unhatched eggs? Thanks Pat!

Hi Daniel, before collecting the water from the hatchery I turn off the air to the hatchery and allow it to sit for about 10 minutes or so. The unhatched eggs settle to the bottom and the hatched egg casings float to the top. I collect the water into two 1 liter bottles and leave enough water in the hatchery so I do not get the egg casings. I then pour the BBS into a coffee filter fine enough to contain the BBS and avoid pouring the unhatched eggs into the coffee filter which have collected at the bottom of the first 1 liter bottle used to drain the hatchery.
Pat

danotaylor
10-12-2018, 03:49 PM
thank you Pat. I see that they're hatched in salt water. Do you use sea salt or will any salt do? You mentioned putting the hatched BBS into "fresh" water...do you mean fresh salt water to keep them alive, or just actual fresh water? If fresh, how long do they stay alive in the fridge? Cheers mate :)

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 09:29 PM
Daniel, I use whatever salt is handy, generally plain table salt. I placed the coffee filter with the BBS in a dish of fresh water to mostly cover the BBS and then place in the frig and feed as needed. The BBS does not have to be alive to feed and I rather they weren't to help preserve the egg yolk.
Pat

danotaylor
10-12-2018, 09:35 PM
Perfect Pat, thx for clarifying that for me. I get stuck on details sometimes 😊

Second Hand Pat
10-12-2018, 09:38 PM
Perfect Pat, thx for clarifying that for me. I get stuck on details sometimes ��

:thumbsup:

Second Hand Pat
10-13-2018, 10:51 PM
Second day for the fry in their 40 breeder.

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100% water change. Most of the fry are about nickel sized.

118890

Definitely have some aggression at feeding time.


http://youtu.be/1gO6VzPRlao

Adam S
10-13-2018, 11:57 PM
Geez, the two on the left need professional help. Angry little fish!

Tshethar
10-14-2018, 01:18 AM
Geez, the two on the left need professional help. Angry little fish!

Lol. :mad: So relaxing, watching fish, isn't it? I hear it's good for the blood pressure...

Mr.BigBlock
10-14-2018, 02:29 AM
They're coming along nicely Pat!

Second Hand Pat
10-14-2018, 08:07 AM
Geez, the two on the left need professional help. Angry little fish!

Those two have an appointment with a counselor next week the help determine the nature of the aggression :rolleyes2:
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-14-2018, 08:09 AM
Lol. :mad: So relaxing, watching fish, isn't it? I hear it's good for the blood pressure...

Exactly LOL :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-14-2018, 08:09 AM
They're coming along nicely Pat!

Thank you Joie :)
Pat

Pices
10-14-2018, 11:45 AM
Wow Pat they’re looking good. Is Boss one of the aggressors? Feisty is great -means they are feeling good enough to conquer their world. Way to go Pat. I’m betting it’ll be smooth sailing from here. Thanks for showing us how it’s done. Can’t wait to see these guys in the weeks to come.
Patty

Second Hand Pat
10-14-2018, 11:56 AM
Wow Pat they’re looking good. Is Boss one of the aggressors? Feisty is great -means they are feeling good enough to conquer their world. Way to go Pat. I’m betting it’ll be smooth sailing from here. Thanks for showing us how it’s done. Can’t wait to see these guys in the weeks to come.
Patty

Thanks Patty, Boss seems low key at this point but all the fish are active and eating well. Feisty is spot on :D and yes, I have my routine and feeding amounts down and I am feeling good about the future with this group. :D:D
Pat

snxtif
10-14-2018, 11:17 PM
Those two have an appointment with a counselor next week the help determine the nature of the aggression :rolleyes2:
Pat

I heard from somewhere (def not in Al's how to raise discus video tho) that 2 PPM of Prozac does the trick :p

danotaylor
10-15-2018, 08:27 AM
Your group is looking awesome Pat. Keep up the good work :-)

Second Hand Pat
10-15-2018, 11:16 AM
I heard from somewhere (def not in Al's how to raise discus video tho) that 2 PPM of Prozac does the trick :p

At the rate the aggression is going the whole tank will need it lol.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-15-2018, 11:23 AM
Your group is looking awesome Pat. Keep up the good work :-)

Thank you Daniel, hope to see them start to up round up this week.
Pat

danotaylor
10-15-2018, 07:04 PM
Keenly watchingvwith you mate!

Filip
10-16-2018, 03:00 AM
So did you notice any improvement with their appetite and growth once you've introduced the BBS in their diet Pat ?

Second Hand Pat
10-16-2018, 08:00 AM
Keenly watchingvwith you mate!

Hope I am not jinx-ing myself by saying this....but hold onto your socks :D


So did you notice any improvement with their appetite and growth once you've introduced the BBS in their diet Pat ?

More so in their growth Filip. Appetite has always been good. I was also not making the FDBW's fine enough. It needs to look like dust after grinding.
Pat

sanjay21
10-16-2018, 09:25 AM
They are looking great Pat :) Growing healhty.

Second Hand Pat
10-16-2018, 03:37 PM
They are looking great Pat :) Growing healhty.

Thank Sanjay :)

Second Hand Pat
10-16-2018, 03:39 PM
So think these guys are about seven weeks old or so. Used a camcorder vs the phone. Detail is a lot better.


http://youtu.be/YgltpjpH8PI

Adam S
10-16-2018, 11:49 PM
Pat, I think Al implanted brain chips or something in the contest fish. The night after you uploaded the video with the two duking it out, a couple of mine started doing the same West Side Story/sideways wiggle fighting. Let me know if you find a good shrink for them, as mine might need one too.

Second Hand Pat
10-17-2018, 10:03 AM
Hi Adam, still looking for a fish shrink but no luck. :( Al did admit to a bit of tampering with these fry but would not reveal any details. So I guess we have to await to see what other surprises are in store for us! :eek:
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-19-2018, 08:00 AM
Just to show how fast these guys grow. Note the fish in the center of the first pic. It was taken Sept 30.

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This pic was taken yesterday. Fish near the bottom is the same fish as the one noted in the first pic.

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danotaylor
10-19-2018, 08:16 AM
Awesome Pat. The explosive growth rate of discus fry really amazes me. Great job! Nice image as well ;)

jeep
10-19-2018, 10:37 AM
Looking very nice!

Paul Sabucchi
10-19-2018, 11:07 AM
Simply spectacular!

Second Hand Pat
10-19-2018, 03:08 PM
Awesome Pat. The explosive growth rate of discus fry really amazes me. Great job! Nice image as well ;)

Thank you Daniel :)


Looking very nice!

Thank you Brian :)


Simply spectacular!

and thank you also Paul :D

Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-19-2018, 04:21 PM
Recap on the last three weeks. I have had these guys for three weeks and a day. While I have had fry in the past at this age the groups have been larger so feeding was easier. It took me a bit of time to get the feeding amounts right and I overfeed these guys a few times (oops). Water changes have been a breeze. I thought my water would be an issue but it has not been. I continue to age my water and I do this for all my fish.

The fry were moved to a divided 40 breeder Thursday of last week and they get a 100% daily water change of about 30 gallons or so. They are being feed freshly hatched BBS and FDBW fines (as in dust). They get feed small portions every one to two hours thru-out the day with a break about midday starting about 8pm and ending about 10ish pm. They get their water change about 8pm or so. The size of all ten fry have gotten more uniform with the two smaller ones being quarter sized.

Here's some pics from yesterday when I was playing the flash. Waiting on those foreheads to start rounding up.

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Second Hand Pat
10-19-2018, 09:14 PM
A video from tonight. I am happy with these guys. They are active, eating very well, not shy and aggression levels are not crazy.


http://youtu.be/iVwktNGQ3gs

xKevinx
10-20-2018, 11:16 PM
Looking great! I'm starting to see a touch of colour in the fins!

Maddie
10-21-2018, 12:25 AM
They are looking really good. You are doing a fantastic job!

Tommo
10-21-2018, 10:01 AM
hi Pat I'm still following the forum on an irregular basis and particularly the grow out challenge. Just a quick point about sponge filters: by omitting the funnel extension on the top of the filter reduces the efficiency. In my experience the funnel extension increases the water pull/flow through the filter.

Second Hand Pat
10-21-2018, 10:07 AM
Looking great! I'm starting to see a touch of colour in the fins!

Thanks Kevin, yes, a wee bit of blue in the fins and the suggestion of a sheen on the forehead :D


They are looking really good. You are doing a fantastic job!

Why thank you Maddie :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-21-2018, 10:17 AM
hi Pat I'm still following the forum on an irregular basis and particularly the grow out challenge. Just a quick point about sponge filters: by omitting the funnel extension on the top of the filter reduces the efficiency. In my experience the funnel extension increases the water pull/flow through the filter.

Hi Paul, it's been a while :) I was reviewing my 2013 growout thread from my F1 wild green fry and you had some great suggestions back then. You still in China or back in the UK?

As for the funnel extension I am not using it ATM due to generally having the water level below the top of the funnel extension. I think having the bubbles breaking the surface tension of the water and water movement within the tank is more important then filter efficiency ATM. There is another filter on the other side of the divider. Once the water level is higher I will be added the funnel extension to the filter in the future :D
Pat

sanjay21
10-21-2018, 10:27 AM
Wow ! those pictures are amazing ! so are the Discus :) Great job Pat !

Paul Sabucchi
10-21-2018, 10:59 AM
Well done so far, they all look nice and perky!

Tommo
10-21-2018, 12:07 PM
I've been back in the UK since 2015. Retired now and spending 4 - 5 hours each day in my fish room. Keeps me out of trouble and it's the warmest room in the house. Still absolutely hate the cold / damp UK winters.

Second Hand Pat
10-21-2018, 12:26 PM
I've been back in the UK since 2015. Retired now and spending 4 - 5 hours each day in my fish room. Keeps me out of trouble and it's the warmest room in the house. Still absolutely hate the cold / damp UK winters.

You keeping any discus Paul?
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-21-2018, 12:28 PM
Wow ! those pictures are amazing ! so are the Discus :) Great job Pat !

Thank you Sanjay, your guys are looking great also :)


Well done so far, they all look nice and perky!

Thank you Paul :D
Pat

Tommo
10-22-2018, 07:46 AM
You keeping any discus Paul?
Pat

No Pat I've 33 tanks on the go and they are all full to bursting point at the moment. I'm keeping some of the fish that I used to play around with in the late 1960s. My water supply isn't good enough to keep Discus and, unfortunately, I don't have the room to store enough water etc. I did a short video a couple of years ago of my fish room and uploaded it to YouTube. If you search for ptommo100 you'll see how cramped the room is.

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 08:03 AM
No Pat I've 33 tanks on the go and they are all full to bursting point at the moment. I'm keeping some of the fish that I used to play around with in the late 1960s. My water supply isn't good enough to keep Discus and, unfortunately, I don't have the room to store enough water etc. I did a short video a couple of years ago of my fish room and uploaded it to YouTube. If you search for ptommo100 you'll see how cramped the room is.

The video from 2016 Paul. That is a packed fishroom and every tank (except two I think) are full...a hobby and a passion. :D
Pat

Tommo
10-22-2018, 10:58 AM
The video from 2016 Paul. That is a packed fishroom and every tank (except two I think) are full...a hobby and a passion. :D
Pat

Yes and even more tightly packed now Pat as I've managed to squeeze in a few more tanks. A passion - more like and obsession :-)

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 11:15 AM
Yes and even more tightly packed now Pat as I've managed to squeeze in a few more tanks. A passion - more like and obsession :-)

So true for us all Paul :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 11:55 AM
Since the fry grow the fastest the first three months of life I have decided to add an extra water change. My 44 gallon brute holds just enough water to do two 20 gallon 100% water changes a day if I fill it as high as possible. I started this two days ago. I do one at 10am and the other at 8pm. I still have a divider in the 40 breeder and will remove it when the time seems right. The fry will be with me four weeks this coming Thursday.

Still feeding BBS, FDBW fines and the Discus Gold Al sent with the fry in ever increasing amounts. I will be making them a seafood mix soon. Still working on the recipe for that. Even considered adding whey to the recipe but after asking Paul (pcsb23) I decided against it. It gives the fry more protein then they can handle so they use extra energy to poop it out and it can bulk the fish up...makes them look like little sumo wrestlers. lol.

From last night...

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danotaylor
10-22-2018, 12:06 PM
looking great Pat...is that a quarter taped to the glass now? you go girl!

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 12:09 PM
looking great Pat...is that a quarter taped to the glass now? you go girl!

That's a nickel Danny, the quarter is taped higher on the tank. It's hard to tell but the fish are all larger then the quarter now. It's easier tell when the fish are next to the front glass. They are growing like nuts lol.
Pat

danotaylor
10-22-2018, 12:18 PM
awesome Pat. In Australia we say "growing like weeds", LOL, but that can be misconstrued in this day & age ;)

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 12:31 PM
awesome Pat. In Australia we say "growing like weeds", LOL, but that can be misconstrued in this day & age ;)

That's a common saying here to Danny :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 03:43 PM
A few picks from just now. They are really starting to trash a tank. WC was five hours ago. There are differences is size but overall the group a fairly uniform.

Starting to show color.

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The coin is a quarter.

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Doing the hunger march.

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Willie
10-22-2018, 05:17 PM
Man, them is good pictures! Way to go, Pat.

Second Hand Pat
10-22-2018, 10:25 PM
Man, them is good pictures! Way to go, Pat.

Thanks Wille :)
Pat

Tshethar
10-23-2018, 12:41 AM
I agree with Willie. Cool to see what you can do with the lighting to give us a hint of what's coming with their colors.

Second Hand Pat
10-23-2018, 05:55 AM
I agree with Willie. Cool to see what you can do with the lighting to give us a hint of what's coming with their colors.

Thanks Bill, I am super excited to see how their color develops over time. You can see hints of it throughout their bodies but also in the forehead and lower fins. I am pretty sure that I have two turks and eight SS. The larger of the two turks has the most color development so far.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-25-2018, 05:03 PM
Indication of color and foreheads rounding up.

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RogueDiscus
10-25-2018, 05:47 PM
Looking good Pat. I'm so proud of all my little grandkids:)

Second Hand Pat
10-25-2018, 09:31 PM
Looking good Pat. I'm so proud of all my little grandkids:)

Thanks Steve, I am enjoying your "grandkids" :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-25-2018, 09:39 PM
Before the storm...nice clean tank.


http://youtu.be/VaThYzhQY0E

During the storm! They are eating lightly grind up FDBWs. Grind just enough to break the cubes apart. I tried cutting a cube into 4 pieces but the worms still seem too long plus places all the fry in one place allowing the larger ones to hog the cube. The way I am feeding in the video lets everyone eat.:D


http://youtu.be/nqgfZo0OmIU

Maxx24
10-26-2018, 03:36 AM
Great images! I don't know how you do it... just trying to get them in focus is hard enough but your pictures are awesome..! I can't believe these little ones are already showing color..

xKevinx
10-26-2018, 06:42 AM
Great pictures! They are looking really nice

Second Hand Pat
10-26-2018, 08:20 AM
Great images! I don't know how you do it... just trying to get them in focus is hard enough but your pictures are awesome..! I can't believe these little ones are already showing color..

Thanks Max, a camera with a remote flash is a great starting point. I am loving the start of color in these guys. :)


Great pictures! They are looking really nice

Thank you Kevin :)

Maxx24
10-26-2018, 12:20 PM
I have a nikon d750....and can take nice portraits of people with off camera flash but still I imagine with these little ones must take a lot of patience and skill.. I just started growing out some dime size discus.. I'll have to try to take similar quality photos.

Second Hand Pat
10-26-2018, 12:55 PM
I have a nikon d750....and can take nice portraits of people with off camera flash but still I imagine with these little ones must take a lot of patience and skill.. I just started growing out some dime size discus.. I'll have to try to take similar quality photos.

Hi Max, learn how to program your speedlight and you might need a light source over the fish so the camera can focus. Do you have a zoom lens?
Pat

Maxx24
10-26-2018, 01:04 PM
I do .. 24-120mm but I might have a macro lens too.. I'll have to look for it and give it a shot tonight.. :)

jeep
10-26-2018, 01:30 PM
Your use of photography skills really brings out the color. It helps us all know what to expect down the road!

Paul Sabucchi
10-26-2018, 02:03 PM
Those lovely looking fish definitely pop with Pat's pin-sharp photography

Second Hand Pat
10-26-2018, 09:01 PM
I do .. 24-120mm but I might have a macro lens too.. I'll have to look for it and give it a shot tonight.. :)

Max, the 24-120 will work fine. That is what I am using for the photos. Get your fish use to having a light on over the tank so the camera can focus and start playing. You might want to start with a SS of 400 (change the Flash-sync speed to 250*), small aperture around 13 or so and ISO 100.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-26-2018, 09:03 PM
Your use of photography skills really brings out the color. It helps us all know what to expect down the road!

Thanks Brian, I am excited for the future will bring with the color on these little guys. :)


Those lovely looking fish definitely pop with Pat's pin-sharp photography

Thank you Paul :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-28-2018, 09:58 AM
Since I have not raised a lot of fry I am not shy about taking moves from the playbooks of the other contestants. Yesterday I went to PetSmart and bought a couple prepackaged frozen BH cubes. :eek: More experienced contestants have mentioned feeding BH really helps to add size to the fry so let's give it a try. I have already introduced the fry to BH and one cube feeds the group nicely.

To get it small enough to eat I run the cube over a very fine grader when the cube is frozen. That works like a champ :D
Pat

Pices
10-28-2018, 11:38 AM
Since I have not raised a lot of fry I am not shy about taking moves from the playbooks of the other contestants. Yesterday I went to PetSmart and bought a couple prepackaged frozen BH cubes. :eek: More experienced contestants have mentioned feeding BH really helps to add size to the fry so let's give it a try. I have already introduced the fry to BH and one cube feeds the group nicely.

To get it small enough to eat I run the cube over a very fine grader when the cube is frozen. That works like a champ :D
Pat

With all these tips, you’re making it very difficult to resist the urge to get in on any possible future fry challenges.
I’m currently growing/ quarantining some little Cory Dora’s and cardinals-a walk in the park in comparison to discus fry...
Patty

Second Hand Pat
10-28-2018, 01:23 PM
With all these tips, you’re making it very difficult to resist the urge to get in on any possible future fry challenges.
I’m currently growing/ quarantining some little Cory Dora’s and cardinals-a walk in the park in comparison to discus fry...
Patty

If Al adds a second group to the contest it's worth considering Patty. I am really enjoying these little guys. They are healthy, active and eat like pigs. The fry are telling me I am on the right track with them. :D
Pat

Adam S
10-28-2018, 06:29 PM
Hi Pat, I saw on Bryan's thread that you tried some new food. How'd it go?

Second Hand Pat
10-28-2018, 09:16 PM
Hi Pat, I saw on Bryan's thread that you tried some new food. How'd it go?

I have not done enough with it to really tell. The fry seem to blow on it, suck it in and blow it out. I wonder if the pellet is a bit large for my guys?
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-28-2018, 09:49 PM
I am really happy with these guys. They are active, alert, not shy and eat like pigs :D


http://youtu.be/nXJmolKRbcw

Pices
10-28-2018, 10:06 PM
Oh my gosh they are really getting big and beautiful Pat!
Patty

danotaylor
10-29-2018, 02:22 AM
Lookin great Pat...fat little bellies, happy little faces :)

Second Hand Pat
10-29-2018, 06:30 AM
Oh my gosh they are really getting big and beautiful Pat!
Patty

They surprise me every time I see them Patty :D They are growing so fast...simply really enjoying these little buggers. :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-29-2018, 06:30 AM
Lookin great Pat...fat little bellies, happy little faces :)

Why thank you Danny :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-29-2018, 10:03 PM
So I moved the divider this morning and the tank got much larger. The fry didn't hardly bat an eye. They also totally lost interest in BBS so threw the last batch away. Went from this..

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To this

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Getting hints of color on these guys.

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danotaylor
10-30-2018, 12:19 AM
heck yea Pat...you have a nice consistent size & shape developing there...sweet! If I ever get to the "growing out fry" stage of my discus passion, this thread & Bryan's are truly the go to threads for discovering what works...hats off to you both for documenting the journey so well for the rest of us!

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 07:49 AM
heck yea Pat...you have a nice consistent size & shape developing there...sweet! If I ever get to the "growing out fry" stage of my discus passion, this thread & Bryan's are truly the go to threads for discovering what works...hats off to you both for documenting the journey so well for the rest of us!

Thanks Danny, wait until you see them now :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 08:00 AM
Taking another move from Bryan's play book I decided to add BH flake to the food mix. In the past I have ordered Super BH Flake from Bill at Inland Empire Discus Inland-Empire-Discus-(Bill-Schroer) (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?150-Inland-Empire-Discus-(Bill-Schroer)-Rialto-California). I went to Bill's website and it was acting weird so emailed Bill instead asking if he still sold his Super BH flakes. He responded saying he did but his website was hacked. Anyway I ordered some of his flake and it arrived yesterday. I added a little bit to the tank and left the fry blowing and mouthing it. Came back a bit later and was happy to see most of it gone..win win.

So the ingredients in the flake is "approximate analysis: Protein, 50%; Fat, 10%; Ash, 12%; Moisture, 7%; Vitamin C, 2,000 ppm; Astaxanthin, 450 ppm. Beef heart % in the pro-growth is 43% wet weight". Information found in this thread Super-Beef-Heart-Flake-Food-info (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?79659-Super-Beef-Heart-Flake-Food-info). There is also a more than antiquate amounts of Pro-Growth and Garlic for superior growth and health. If there is any interest I would suggest emailing Bill.
Pat

Mando
11-01-2018, 08:32 AM
Your grow out challenge is filled with valuable information! thank you for all the details you provide. I too have my own little grow out (7 x 1.5" discus), and I'm stealing ideas from you and Bryan.

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 08:44 AM
Your grow out challenge is filled with valuable information! thank you for all the details you provide. I too have my own little grow out (7 x 1.5" discus), and I'm stealing ideas from you and Bryan.

Thank you Mando and you are more than welcome. :D I am trying to be as complete and upfront as possible. I will admit I am having a blast with the fry and while it is a bit of work. It is thrilling to have healthy, active, always hungry fish :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 09:00 AM
Since I have not raised a lot of fry I am not shy about taking moves from the playbooks of the other contestants. Yesterday I went to PetSmart and bought a couple prepackaged frozen BH cubes. :eek: More experienced contestants have mentioned feeding BH really helps to add size to the fry so let's give it a try. I have already introduced the fry to BH and one cube feeds the group nicely.

To get it small enough to eat I run the cube over a very fine grader when the cube is frozen. That works like a champ :D
Pat

Thought I might add some pictures to this process.

I use a small bowl with a paper towel over it to catch the graded bits.

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Here it is all graded. It is a tiny amount left. I do not wish to grade my finger tip.

119275

I use a spoon to knock most of the BH bits off the grader. I then run a wee bit of water over the grader with the bowl underneath to catch the rest if the bits onto the paper towel. This also thaws the bits out and allows the blood to be absorbed by the paper towel.

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Now take a spoon and scoop up the bits off the paper towel and place it into a container for feeding.

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Now go feed :D

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Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 09:31 AM
Eating their morning BH...


http://youtu.be/u17fs4c2xrY

sanjay21
11-01-2018, 09:39 AM
Lot of care there Pat :) Fish are looking great!

I just drop smaller chunks of beef heart straight.

Willie
11-01-2018, 09:41 AM
Iím more of a jump shot guy myself. ;)

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 10:01 AM
Lot of care there Pat :) Fish are looking great!

I just drop smaller chunks of beef heart straight.


I’m more of a jump shot guy myself. ;)

Thanks Sanjay and Willie, I am feeding the prepacked stuff which is too large for the fry hence the process above. Plus I spread it out so the larger ones do not dominate the food.
Pat

danotaylor
11-01-2018, 01:07 PM
Pat they look absolutely amazing!! So obvious they're really are enjoying the BH as well!!
I received 2 fresh deer heart from a friend last week. I trimmed them up, froze the chunks and have been hand grating them on a fine cheese grater. The pieces look like blood worm...squiggles of pure heart...my discus are loving it!! Alot less messy as well as there are no other ground in ingredients.

Mr.BigBlock
11-01-2018, 02:36 PM
They look healthy and happy...keep up the good work Pat!

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 03:10 PM
Pat they look absolutely amazing!! So obvious they're really are enjoying the BH as well!!
I received 2 fresh deer heart from a friend last week. I trimmed them up, froze the chunks and have been hand grating them on a fine cheese grater. The pieces look like blood worm...squiggles of pure heart...my discus are loving it!! Alot less messy as well as there are no other ground in ingredients.

Thank Danny, I am super happy with them :D Nice catch on the deer heart. :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2018, 03:11 PM
They look healthy and happy...keep up the good work Pat!

Thank you Joie :)
Pat

xKevinx
11-01-2018, 11:52 PM
Getting big!! Looking great! Awesome.

Pices
11-02-2018, 12:09 AM
I love these videos. Your kids are growing like weeds!
Patty

Second Hand Pat
11-03-2018, 11:18 AM
Getting big!! Looking great! Awesome.

Thank you Kevin :)


I love these videos. Your kids are growing like weeds!
Patty

Thank you Patty, I am really happy with their growth :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-03-2018, 11:19 AM
Finally decided the kids were big enough to try cutting two FDBW cubes in half and let them play. Seems to be working out great!!


http://youtu.be/aZ9uwkzEkFY

fljones3
11-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Did they eat all of the two cubes?

Second Hand Pat
11-03-2018, 09:56 PM
Did they eat all of the two cubes?

This was last night Frank and I netted a little of the surplus off the surface of the water and there was some on the bottom of the tank which I left and it was gone this morning. So yes, they ate most of the two cubes.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-05-2018, 09:38 PM
Sort of same mo here, the fry eat, poop, water change twice a day...rinse repeat. But man, they are growing like weeds :D and I am enjoying them a lot. I measured one of the larger ones about ten days ago and it was right at two inches. Need to measure again. Here they are finishing off their second helping of BH this evening.


http://youtu.be/rtjGjVOsmNI

Tshethar
11-05-2018, 09:48 PM
Looking good, Pat! Active and growing, with room to move. :)

Second Hand Pat
11-05-2018, 09:53 PM
Looking good, Pat! Active and growing, with room to move. :)

Thank Bill, they are in a 40 breeder. The foam on the end is only a couple inches from the side so the fry almost have the whole tank. :)
Pat

Maxx24
11-05-2018, 10:01 PM
Sort of same mo here, the fry eat, poop, water change twice a day...rinse repeat....

Seems that way at some point but slow and steady wins the race (contest) :D
They are looking good!

Second Hand Pat
11-05-2018, 10:38 PM
Seems that way at some point but slow and steady wins the race (contest) :D
They are looking good!

Thanks Max and you are right :D
Pat

modealings
11-06-2018, 09:17 AM
Looking great Pat - really starting to round up!

Second Hand Pat
11-08-2018, 10:54 PM
Looking great Pat - really starting to round up!

Thank you Eric :)
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-08-2018, 10:56 PM
These guys have thicken up and several of the SS look like they have been dusted with blue powder.


http://youtu.be/y8TmEhPbcus

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Mando
11-09-2018, 12:18 AM
Great job so far! I love these growout challenges! It’s suspensful, entertaining, and full of knowlegde.

Second Hand Pat
11-09-2018, 08:33 AM
Great job so far! I love these growout challenges! It’s suspensful, entertaining, and full of knowlegde.

Thank you Mando :D
Pat

Pices
11-09-2018, 10:13 AM
Oh my gosh! This is so cool! The colors in your babies are really coming out & you’ve got to be beaming with pride at these beauties! I’d be beside myself!
Patty

danotaylor
11-09-2018, 10:35 AM
coming along beautifully Pat!

Second Hand Pat
11-09-2018, 11:35 PM
Oh my gosh! This is so cool! The colors in your babies are really coming out & you’ve got to be beaming with pride at these beauties! I’d be beside myself!
Patty

I am loving watching these guys grow Patty :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-09-2018, 11:36 PM
coming along beautifully Pat!

Thank you Danny :D
Pat

Mando
11-10-2018, 12:25 AM
Thank you Danny :D
Pat

First forum I see where everyone knows each other by first name. Lol

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2018, 08:09 AM
First forum I see where everyone knows each other by first name. Lol

Hi Mando, we have folks who have been part of this forum since it's creation in 2002 and yes, many of us know each other and are long term friends. :D
Pat

danotaylor
11-10-2018, 08:54 AM
I really enjoy the openness of this forum as well. On many other forums there's an air of secrecy with who people are, what they keep and where they source certain things. I really appreciate SD for the fact that generally everything is out in the open, and people are happy to be known for who they are, not who they wants others to perceive them as...:focus:
Thanks Pat for making your experience and experiences openly available to us all!! Your fry are looking great, and you'll have a biggie in the running for the grand prize for sure!!

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2018, 09:09 AM
I really enjoy the openness of this forum as well. On many other forums there's an air of secrecy with who people are, what they keep and where they source certain things. I really appreciate SD for the fact that generally everything is out in the open, and people are happy to be known for who they are, not who they wants others to perceive them as...:focus:
Thanks Pat for making your experience and experiences openly available to us all!! Your fry are looking great, and you'll have a biggie in the running for the grand prize for sure!!

Thanks Danny, I think what makes this forum different is Al being willing to host this forum and making it a family based forum where all members can gather and share their experiences in a friendly positive setting. :D As for my personal reasons for being in the contest is to simply raise the fry the best I can. I hope to apply this experience into raising some wild fry in the future.
Pat

danotaylor
11-10-2018, 10:07 AM
I agree. Al does a great job hosting and providing creative opportunities to keep things fresh and the information flowing. Of course without a membership willing to be involved nothing happens. I have been a part of 3 major fish forums b4 SD. 2 of which have recently all but ceased to exist except for their classifieds, and the other (on which I'm a mod) is heading that way as the site owner does not involve himself in posting anymore. Last I checked it was over a week since he had even logged in.
All that to say, to Al, the mod team, and the membership of SD, thank you for your efforts and energy to keep this site fresh, informative, and enjoyable to visit and participate in. Well done :thumbsup:

sanjay21
11-10-2018, 10:20 AM
Thanks Danny, I think what makes this forum different is Al being willing to host this forum and making it a family based forum where all members can gather and share their experiences in a friendly positive setting. :D As for my personal reasons for being in the contest is to simply raise the fry the best I can. I hope to apply this experience into raising some wild fry in the future.
Pat

Simply Discus has been the savior for me when I was a beginner and learnt so much. Big thanks to all the Mods and Admins here.

Pat, those colors are so vibrant :) great job on the grow outs so far !

Second Hand Pat
11-10-2018, 10:44 AM
Simply Discus has been the savior for me when I was a beginner and learnt so much. Big thanks to all the Mods and Admins here.

Pat, those colors are so vibrant :) great job on the grow outs so far !

Aw thank you Sanjay, I bet yours are showing some nice color also. :D
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-11-2018, 05:20 PM
Some pictures from today. They have really thickened up and showing some nice shape. I did a 100% water change and caught and measured the smallest one. It is just under two inches. Growth wise I think I am about middle of the pack but I am very pleased with these guys.

Several are showing lots of blue especially in the right light. I tried to capture that but failed. Perhaps next time. They are chasing each other like mad. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to separate the smaller ones from the larger ones for a bit. Easy enough to do with the divider.

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Trying to show the blue.

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A couple of them have more of a neutral cast. I will be curious to see how the color forms on them.

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Willie
11-11-2018, 05:39 PM
Incredible pictures as usual, Willie

danotaylor
11-11-2018, 08:26 PM
Wow Pat, amazing fry and pics. Pressing on towards the goal!!

Second Hand Pat
11-11-2018, 09:40 PM
Incredible pictures as usual, Willie

Thank you Wille :)


Wow Pat, amazing fry and pics. Pressing on towards the goal!!

Thanks Danny :D

Pat