Willie's Grow Out Challenge

[Willie]

Hi;

I am Willie and I have a problem.

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This is my quarantine/nursery/medication tank. Nothing has been in here for at least a month. Sponges that were used in quarantine/medication are cleaned and allowed to dry out before recyling. I run lots of sponge filters in my pleco tank and switch them in as needed.

Willie

[Willie]

The good news is that I'm getting tracking information again. The fish just arrived at Newark Airport.

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The bad news is that I live in Minneapolis and the fish won't get here until Saturday! :angry:

[Disgirl]

Seeing what you all are going through, makes me even more afraid to get discus in the mail. A friend of mine always says "shipping is cursed". Willie I hope there will be a miracle for you and the fry.
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

The good news is that I'm getting tracking information again. The fish just arrived at Newark Airport.

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The bad news is that I live in Minneapolis and the fish won't get here until Saturday! :angry:

Willie, there is hope. Mine were scheduled for Friday and came today. Crossing fingers for you.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Same here on getting them a day earlier than indicated. Hoping for the best. There's gotta be tons of flights out of Newark to Minneapolis and it got there just after midnight last night, so maybe it's closer than it looks... hope so.

[brewmaster15]

Thats just ridiculous..

If this was winter I would say they will not make it... Theres a chance they will be alive though based on my tests. Its alot longer though than I expected .:( If you get them alive Willie, obviously decide if you want to try and get them up and growing.

what a bummer.

al

[Filip]

I'm cheering for an early Saturday arrival here Willie .
The way i see this , getting your fish last and In the worst conditions would give other rookies a fair chance to catch up with you Willie :) . It's a fair twist of events , under the condition they all come allive .
Im just trying to think positive here and cheer up the atmosphere a bit I guess :) .

[Willie]

Thanks, Filip. :o

The latest news is encouraging (blue highlight), if only I knew what it meant. The US Post Office has an agent?!!

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[jeep]

Many times, I have seen a USPS package tracked to the post office less than 1 mile from my house only to be handed over to Fedex, and vise versa. I have no idea why but this always causes a day or two delay.

[Adam S]

The US Post Office has an agent?!!
Take a picture for us if a couple guys in suits show up with your fish.

[Willie]

Take a picture for us if a couple guys in suits show up with your fish. :) :D ;)

They're here! Not the suits, but the fry. Six hours after the PO turned the shipment over to an agent, they landed at my doorstep.

No damage to the box, no leaks to the bags. The bags went straight into the tank to equilibrate temperature. After an hour, they were netted and put into tank. No floaters, none on the bottom. Everyone is swimming. The tank will be kept dark and I'll feed tomorrow morning after they had a chance to calm down.

Kudos to Al on this one! Discus fry are very susceptible to temperature change. The inside of the box was cold when it arrived (55F here today), but the fish came through. Obviously they were in good condition going into the box. Nicely done, Brew. Now it's up to us.

Willie

[brewmaster15]

:) :D ;)

They're here! Not the suits, but the fry. Six hours after the PO turned the shipment over to an agent, they landed at my doorstep.

No damage to the box, no leaks to the bags. The bags went straight into the tank to equilibrate temperature. After an hour, they were netted and put into tank. No floaters, none on the bottom. Everyone is swimming. The tank will be kept dark and I'll feed tomorrow morning after they had a chance to calm down.

Kudos to Al on this one! Discus fry are very susceptible to temperature change. The inside of the box was cold when it arrived (55F here today), but the fish came through. Obviously they were in good condition going into the box. Nicely done, Brew. Now it's up to us.

Willie


Thank God!!!! Thats such a relief! Good Luck Willie!

al

[Second Hand Pat]

So glad they made it Willie, That’s a very large miracle. Al did good good on these guys!!

[LizStreithorst]

I'm so relived. I was so worried. I figured they had a chance but with the heat pack having run out I thought that they would be gonners.
I knew it would be cold in MN. Baby Discus are tough as nails.

Al's packing is over the top. He sent me baby BN once. They were 1 baby to a bag, triple bagged. I'm good but I don't go to those lengths.

[Jody]

Pics pics pics!

[pastry]

Alright, this post might be deleted but I could not help myself at the title of this thread. Due to this, I am rooting for Willie! Please name one "chubbie" just for me :antlers:

Alright, I'll go ahead and get into my doghouse.

[Tshethar]

Well, as a fellow William I've got no comment on the previous post... :p

But I did want to say that a) it's awesome your fish made it safely; and b) you signature line has me cracking up for reasons this photo will clarify...

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Seriously, I have an 8-year-old... I swear! Resistance is futile! I'm a smart guy, really... at least some of the time! (And c'mon, can you believe this one showed up? We've been hunting them for 2-3 weeks... what are the chances?) :grin:

[Filip]

Great news Willie .We are eagerly awaiting photos now :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Glad they made it safe and sound, the Agent must belong to one of those three letter Agencies! Wishing you and your little ones all the best for the contest and the future in general.

[Willie]

Thanks to everyone for your best wishes. This was a heck of a good idea from Brew.

The fry went into a 10-gal tank as I indicated previously. My usual treatment is to float the bags to acclimate the temperature and then in they go. My rule is no lights, no food for the first 24 hours. I also dropped the water level to help fish acclimate, so the 10-gal tank had ~6 gal of water.

This morning, I counted 10 fry. Of course, everyone scurries behind the sponge when I tried to take a picture.

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I tried the Discus Gold, but they didn't seem enthused. In anticipation, I started a baby brine shrimp culture yesterday so they'll get that this afternoon. I'm also planning timed feeding during working hours.

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So they look okay after the first water change. I dropped the water level to ~2 gal and then filled the tank. The chubby one on the left is named Elliott.

Willie

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[rickztahone]

Looking good Willie. Discus can be good shippers if packed properly just like any other fish. Glad they made it ok. Good luck with the contest!

[Filip]

Looking good Willie . I guess they will take your BBS with gusto on the next feed .

[danotaylor]

Lookin good Willie, glad it all worked out for you & your fishies...looking forward to tracking your progress. I am new to discus (done the correct way LOL) so when you have a chance would you please explain how your BBS factory works, how long do they take to hatch, and how you get the BBS out? If growing them to adulthood do they need to be fed themselves? cheers mate. Danny

[Willie]

This BBS setup came from angelsplus.com and I've used it for more than a decade. Like everyone else, I use to have a DIY set up. This was just much easier to use to harvest baby brine shrimp. Much less messier than all those cut up gallon jugs.

The solution is just salt water. I use pickling salt (available at all supermarkets) at 5 - 6 tablespoons per gallon. Any salt would work. Pickling salt is cheap and dissolves fast. A flat teaspoon of brine shrimp eggs go in and I harvest the batch about 24 hours later. Harvesting early is important. Essentially, you want the shrimp to be mostly just yolk sac. As you wait, they absorb the yolk sac and develop an exoskeleton. The mixture looks much thicker, but it's actually far less nutritious.

I harvest everything and stick the bbs in the frig. Usually it takes me 48 hours to feed, so I start a batch every 48 hours. BBS is a great food for young fry, but I want to wean them onto beefheart by the end of the week to get them growing.

Hope that helps, Willie

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Willie, I have a similar looking BBS hatchery. I learned early the DIY method got the job done but time intensive and messy. I was working at the time so time was important. I bought one similar to yours. Way easier to harvest the BBS and like you, the harvested BBS went into the frig. Helps to preserve that precious egg yolk.
Pat

[danotaylor]

Thank you Willie. A very informative and helpful answer. Thanks for taking the time to respond mate. I appreciate it!

[Pices]

Glad your fish made it safe and sound. It’ll be exciting watching these guys plump up.
Patty

[danotaylor]

1 last qn Willie; how do you "harvest" the BBS? Thanks mate!

[Willie]

There are netting which are fine enough to filter out the baby brine shrimp. During the hatch out process, unhatched eggs will sink to the bottom while empty shells float to the top. So it's a simple matter of running the middle fraction through the netting. Again, I would recommend getting this from www.angelsplus.com. They have a hard netting that works better than most bbs nets.

Willie

[danotaylor]

Thank you for taking the time to answer again Willie!!

[brewmaster15]

Hey Willie,
Looking good! Are you planning on pureeing the Beefheart?

al

[Willie]

I just do some thin slicing with a razor blade. It took them about 10 minutes to wean onto beefheart. :p

Now to get them to eat large chunks so I can do even less work!

Willie

[Willie]

The fry have settled into my morning routine, which begins with

altums
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albino manacapuras
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flat fish
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more flat fish
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and the babies
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Willie

[danotaylor]

All stunning looking fish mate. What are the blue flat fish? At 1st on though diamonds but there is some unique color in the halo so now I'm not sure...

[Filip]

Pour things , I'm sure they still wonder if that's their "Judgment day" on every WC :)

[Willie]

All stunning looking fish mate. What are the blue flat fish? At 1st on though diamonds but there is some unique color in the halo so now I'm not sure...

These are just blue diamonds. I do notice that they have a halo effect when there's not much water in the tank though.


Pour things , I'm sure they still wonder if that's their "Judgment day" on every WC :)

Just goes to show that discus are not the most intelligent creatures. These guys handle WC's very well, but the big discus are always flopping. I mean it's every single morning...

[Tshethar]

Just goes to show that discus are not the most intelligent creatures. These guys handle WC's very well, but the big discus are always flopping. I mean it's every single morning...

At least they're not looking for Pokemon all the time like I am! :-)

Seriously, beautiful fish, Willie, thanks for sharing!

Since there's some talk going on in my thread about water prep (and potential issues with that), do you mind sharing how you manage your water systems to keep up with the needs of all your tanks?

[Filip]

These are just blue diamonds. I do notice that they have a halo effect when there's not much water in the tank though.



Just goes to show that discus are not the most intelligent creatures. These guys handle WC's very well, but the big discus are always flopping. I mean it's every single morning...

Well I must admit that my humble experience with discus behaviour during WCs differs from yours Willie .
I always start with neurotic and freaked discus that end up very calm and ready for 90% WC once they get accustomed to my routines .
But regardless of how they feel about it , I guess we just got to do our thing and drain our tanks .

[Willie]

Filip: I would say the discus are pretty calm after the water change. Took this picture about 10 minutes afterwards.

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During the water change is a different story. When the water level is down, some fish will flip around like flying saucers. I noticed that it's usually the same 1 - 2 fishes.

Willie

[Willie]

...Since there's some talk going on in my thread about water prep (and potential issues with that), do you mind sharing how you manage your water systems to keep up with the needs of all your tanks?...

Tshethar;

Over the years, I've tried to simplify things. All the tanks in my fishroom are on two racks. (The bottom rack is just a water reservoir tank.) All the fish are on top racks. You can see a pair of Liz's half blacks on the left and Kenny's Red Eagle on the right.

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Every morning, I drained each tank with a Python. I use two Pythons at a time and there's enough time to wipe down the tank bottoms as well. After the tank drains, conditioned water is pumped up while dechlor is added. So I change 350 - 400 gallons every morning and the entire manual process takes about an hour and 30 minutes.

The bottom tanks are filled from the tap, where it's heated and aerated. The process repeats the following morning. The tank sits on 1" styrofoam and is covered by the same. Three sides are wrapped with the silver insulation. You can see a water pump, two heaters and an airstone. It takes 12 minutes to fill a 125 gallon tank.

Easy as pie, Willie

[Mr.BigBlock]

Nice set up Willie.

[Filip]

Any new update photos of the fry Willie ?
Did they gained some weight so far ?

I'm eager to see your progress . No pressure though :)

[Willie]

I'm not any good at photography, Filip. Here's what my iPhone can do.

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These guys got their water change about 10 minutes ago and I just shredded some beefheart for them. They started eating BH as soon as I introduced it. There's a lot of beefheart in the tank because 1) I'll be at work for the next 10 hours, 2) I've got a business trip next week and will be gone 8 days and 3) they'll get a 100% WC tomorrow morning any way.

I need to train them to attack a big hunk of BH by the weekend so my wife can do the feeding when I'm gone. (She's not going to shred any beefheart.) :)

Willie

[Willie]

Responding to Al's question, my lights are seldom on. I have overhead LED's in the fish room which are on for 2 hours in the morning when I'm changing water and maybe 2 hours in the evening when I'm home. The light on the grow out tank only turns on if I'm taking pictures. My fish room is in the basement and there's a small window, so it gets some light on sunny days. Otherwise, all my discus and angelfish are growing in very dim light.

At night, the fish room is completely dark. I used to keep a night light on, but not any more. When I turn the lights on in the morning, there's no splashing.

Willie

[Maxx24]

Very nice and impressive way up as well as the pictures of the water change routine (flat fish)!

[brewmaster15]

Tshethar;

Over the years, I've tried to simplify things. All the tanks in my fishroom are on two racks. (The bottom rack is just a water reservoir tank.) All the fish are on top racks. You can see a pair of Liz's half blacks on the left and Kenny's Red Eagle on the right.

118825

Every morning, I drained each tank with a Python. I use two Pythons at a time and there's enough time to wipe down the tank bottoms as well. After the tank drains, conditioned water is pumped up while dechlor is added. So I change 350 - 400 gallons every morning and the entire manual process takes about an hour and 30 minutes.

The bottom tanks are filled from the tap, where it's heated and aerated. The process repeats the following morning. The tank sits on 1" styrofoam and is covered by the same. Three sides are wrapped with the silver insulation. You can see a water pump, two heaters and an airstone. It takes 12 minutes to fill a 125 gallon tank.

Easy as pie, Willie

Willie I have a few tanks set up like this also... 55 gal at the top and bottom and use the bottom for the reservoir. :)

[Willie]

Happiness is a clean discus tank. Every tank gets the sponges squeezed out, a complete wipe down, followed by a water change on the weekend.

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These guys always move to the front of the tank when I go over, expecting their beefheart.

Sorry for the reflection, but it's not easy getting all the fry into one picture.

Willie

[Willie]

I get my beefheart from California Blackworms here and they come in 1-LB sheets roughly 3/8th - 1/2" thickness. I cut up the sheets into cubes ~1/2" per side to simplify my life in the mornings. Tonight, I'm feeding the third cube to these guys. They must really like it because 3 cubes is what my 75 gal tank with 5 adults are getting.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Willie, is the BH frozen or freeze dried?
Pat

[Willie]

I get my frozen beefheart from California Blackworms. Every so often, I'll cut it up into cubes so my hands don't get dirty feeding discus in the morning!

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I'm leaving for another week long trip in a couple of hours so they'll be getting an entire cube whenever my wife remembers. :o

Willie

[Willie]

I can't keep up with either the photography skills or the number of posts in this section, but here's the latest.

I've been on an overseas trip for seven days. When I'm gone, the better half tosses in one cube of the aforementioned beefheart daily. They can easily eat 3 - 4 per day, but the reduced rations is to maintain water quality. I'm not sure if growth was reduced, but the water was clean when I got back this morning.

After the water change, I certainly felt better. ;) I counted 10 fish and saw no floaters, so everything is good.

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I'm envious of Brian's grow out. Like him, I believe that males and female fry do not grow differently under optimal conditions. I use to have a partner in the game, where I bred discus and he grew them out. My friend was disabled and stayed home all day. So the fry got a 40% water change after every meal. He only fed flakes, but they grew like champions. More importantly, you could not pick the males out from the females at 2".

That's not going to happen with my travel schedule. I'm gone again on Wednesday for four days and there won't be any feedings until I get back.

Willie

[warblad79]

I can't keep up with either the photography skills or the number of posts in this section, but here's the latest.

I've been on an overseas trip for seven days. When I'm gone, the better half tosses in one cube of the aforementioned beefheart daily. They can easily eat 3 - 4 per day, but the reduced rations is to maintain water quality. I'm not sure if growth was reduced, but the water was clean when I got back this morning.

After the water change, I certainly felt better. ;) I counted 10 fish and saw no floaters, so everything is good.

119039

I'm envious of Brian's grow out. Like him, I believe that males and female fry do not grow differently under optimal conditions. I use to have a partner in the game, where I bred discus and he grew them out. My friend was disabled and stayed home all day. So the fry got a 40% water change after every meal. He only fed flakes, but they grew like champions. More importantly, you could not pick the males out from the females at 2".

That's not going to happen with my travel schedule. I'm gone again on Wednesday for four days and there won't be any feedings until I get back.

Willie

I know you can do it :thumbsup:

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Wille, sorry to hear you are in the road so much. It appears your better half is doing a great job :D
Pat

[Willie]

Just got back from a funeral in the Bay Area. Got a chance to visit Kenny and left with discus (of course).

Gone 5 days, with the wife this time, so no beefheart for anyone. The fry got some flakes from an automatic feeder. After their water change, everyone seems to be in good spirits and noshing away. Crappy iPhone pictures to follow.

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Even under the crappy light, you can see the color highlights.

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Wish I could get the same uniformity as Brian's batch, but that's just not meant to be.

Willie

[danotaylor]

Lookin good none-the-less Willie, you have some really nice ones in the group for sure...it's hard when you're away...I reckon the biggest take away for me from following this challenge is the need for unyielding consistency day in day out...it's a huge commitment to get premium results...many people simply can't give their fish that much attention for 3 months solid...I know I couldn't

[Willie]

Thanks, Dano. Your point is well taken. Consistency is the key to success to keeping discus, and for most things for that matter.

I would take your comment on 3 months further. These fry are getting exactly the same attention as all my fish. They get the same water changes, at the same time, as the rest of the fish room. They get fed the same time as I feed everyone else. My heavy travel schedule for the past month means that they haven't kept up with the other contestants. But then, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. ;)

Willie

[jeep]

But then, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. ;)

Willie

:thumbsup:

[Second Hand Pat]

...But then, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. ;)

Willie

This :thumbsup:

[Willie]

Only one trip this week, so they only missed one water change. Here they are during the morning change.

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Sorry for the bad picture. They're growing up in my 10-gal hospital tank and the bottom of the tank is not covered.

Willie

[sanjay21]

Nice ! I can see colors starting to show on the one in left. Healthy looking batch ! good job Willie !

[Pices]

I noticed the color too. They are going to be beauties!
Patty

[Willie]

Another week has passed and it's time to take pictures! I haven't had to travel this week so they got their daily water changes. They also went into a 30 gal cube.

Saturday was the deep clean day. The sponge gets squeezed out (in your face, John) and every surface gets wiped down. And Sunday morning...

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Willie

[LizStreithorst]

You write an excellent story, Willie. It's a good read from start to finish. From what I can see, you have a few fish with potential in the batch.

[Willie]

Everyone seems happy after their daily water change - everyone except for one little guy.

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Not sure what I can do about this.

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Drat! Willie

[LizStreithorst]

Willie, you have to keep in mind that in addition to having a crazy schedule for raising babies you got your fish much later than the others. All things considered I think you are doing well. So you've got one unhappy little one. Big deal....

[Willie]

Thanks, Liz. Looks like this little guy is just less happy in general.

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He looks much better a few hours after the water change, just not as happy as the others.

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Willie

[Willie]

Six weeks into it and this has been quite a learning process. Kudos to Al for a brilliant idea. I've raised many batches of fry over the years, but frankly never paid that much attention to individual fish. Raising ten meant that you looked at each fish. Al had made an effort to ensure we all received a representative sampling of his spawn so it was reasonable to assume that we started off with the same genetics. Differences can be mainly ascribed to environmental effects, e.g. raising fry.

When I started this contest, my assumption was I know how to do this and I'll just do it that way. My presumption was that it's hard to improve on daily 100% water changes. But the contest allowed me to compare my results with others and assess which approaches were better, which were not. Looking at pictures of Bryan's fish was also a humbling experience. So here's what I've learned, mostly from his results.

There were two major differences in Bryan's approach: he made 2 water changes daily and he fed flakes. So why would 2 water changes on such small fish make such a big difference vs one daily? My guess is that discus fry are very, very sensitive to nitrate levels. I don't do any measurements, but I suspect that 10 - 20 ppm of nitrate is growth limiting. Fry breath very rapidly, so these are ammonia factories. With the kind of overfiltration I do, I know that there was no ammonia or nitrite in my water. I also wiped down the tank bottom daily so bacterial buildup was minimal. So the frequency of water changes at the very beginning is as important as the volume. In this way, those who moved their fry into larger tanks earlier achieved similar results - lower nitrate levels.

Moreover, Bryan's male and female discus (I'm assuming he has both) did not differ in size. Everyone else's spawn had markedly different sized fry. My guess is the female fry are much more sensitive to nitrate than male fry. Keeping the nitrate down meant both sexes could grow closer to their genetic potential. I've seen this before with a good friend raising my fry. He made 40% water changes three times a day and produced spawns with no size differences.

Finally, the most startling conclusion was that Bryan's large, frequent water changes affected the height and roundness of his fry. Most other people, including me, had fry with bumps on the forehead, beaky fronts, football shapes, etc. In my experience, some such fry will grow up into round and tall discus. But Bryan's pictures showed that large, frequent water changes can get you there directly. I had also seen this before with my friend, but had assumed it was superior genetics. Bryan's results showed that environment was as important as genetics.

Lastly, Bryan fed flakes while everyone tried wet and dry foods to power feed their fry. Obviously flakes are just fine for raising very nice discus. I've seen adult discus that were raised on flakes for their entire life. They don't have the "side of beef" look to them, but they grow up to be beautiful fish.

So far, a great experience for me. I will raise my spawns very different going forward. I only hope that these contest threads get read by others not in the competition.

Willie

[fljones3]

Excellent observations. Very helpful.

[danotaylor]

Excellent observations. Very helpful.
+1 Thanks Willie!!

[brewmaster15]

Six weeks into it and this has been quite a learning process. Kudos to Al for a brilliant idea. I've raised many batches of fry over the years, but frankly never paid that much attention to individual fish. Raising ten meant that you looked at each fish. Al had made an effort to ensure we all received a representative sampling of his spawn so it was reasonable to assume that we started off with the same genetics. Differences can be mainly ascribed to environmental effects, e.g. raising fry.

When I started this contest, my assumption was I know how to do this and I'll just do it that way. My presumption was that it's hard to improve on daily 100% water changes. But the contest allowed me to compare my results with others and assess which approaches were better, which were not. Looking at pictures of Bryan's fish was also a humbling experience. So here's what I've learned, mostly from his results.

There were two major differences in Bryan's approach: he made 2 water changes daily and he fed flakes. So why would 2 water changes on such small fish make such a big difference vs one daily? My guess is that discus fry are very, very sensitive to nitrate levels. I don't do any measurements, but I suspect that 10 - 20 ppm of nitrate is growth limiting. Fry breath very rapidly, so these are ammonia factories. With the kind of overfiltration I do, I know that there was no ammonia or nitrite in my water. I also wiped down the tank bottom daily so bacterial buildup was minimal. So the frequency of water changes at the very beginning is as important as the volume. In this way, those who moved their fry into larger tanks earlier achieved similar results - lower nitrate levels.

Moreover, Bryan's male and female discus (I'm assuming he has both) did not differ in size. Everyone else's spawn had markedly different sized fry. My guess is the female fry are much more sensitive to nitrate than male fry. Keeping the nitrate down meant both sexes could grow closer to their genetic potential. I've seen this before with a good friend raising my fry. He made 40% water changes three times a day and produced spawns with no size differences.

Finally, the most startling conclusion was that Bryan's large, frequent water changes affected the height and roundness of his fry. Most other people, including me, had fry with bumps on the forehead, beaky fronts, football shapes, etc. In my experience, some such fry will grow up into round and tall discus. But Bryan's pictures showed that large, frequent water changes can get you there directly. I had also seen this before with my friend, but had assumed it was superior genetics. Bryan's results showed that environment was as important as genetics.

Lastly, Bryan fed flakes while everyone tried wet and dry foods to power feed their fry. Obviously flakes are just fine for raising very nice discus. I've seen adult discus that were raised on flakes for their entire life. They don't have the "side of beef" look to them, but they grow up to be beautiful fish.

So far, a great experience for me. I will raise my spawns very different going forward. I only hope that these contest threads get read by others not in the competition.

Willie

Willie, These are some very insightful thoughts and observations. I had hoped that different techniques would be employed and we could learn from them as a whole. Which is what is happening. Thanks for taking the time to share your observations.

I think theres definitely a link between what is fed, how much, how often and water changes and the not just the growth of the fry but the shape. I don't have any concrete observations here yet to share but this year I have been working with several pairs and many fry.I have tried different things with the various batches food wise. And I think its possible to royally screw up your frys shape by feeding the wrong kinds of food at a particular age. I wish I had more to share on that but right now lets just say I am really re-evaluating my own methods right now because of observations here and in this contest.


So keep it up everyone!
al

[Adam S]

Great post, Willie. Very insightful approach to the contest so far.

Something else that merits attention is the use of bbs or tiny foods in general. Greg Sage made an interesting observation with a male-heavy wild-type swordtail population whose sex ratio improved after feeding green water. He theorized that female swords were born smaller than males and got out competed early on when he was feeding mostly small pellets.

Even foods like flake can be difficult for very small fish to eat, and what doesn't get eaten usually gets ignored after a while. Bryan mentioned that he fed bbs almost exclusively until 1.5", which along with the other details, may have resulted in a better start for his females than the rest of us. The broad feeding pattern of bbs makes it difficult for dominant fish to monopolize the food, and it lets the fish feed for hours.

[brewmaster15]

Adam,
Length of Feeding BBS is something I have noticed as having an effect on shape and growth here. I had attributed it to the BBS being balanced nutritionally with things like the right fats and acids.. But you may right also on the availability factor. In any case, Its something we should all play around with more I think,

al

[Willie]

..Bryan mentioned that he fed bbs almost exclusively until 1.5", which along with the other details, may have resulted in a better start for his females than the rest of us. The broad feeding pattern of bbs makes it difficult for dominant fish to monopolize the food, and it lets the fish feed for hours.

Great observation. I weaned mine onto beefheart as soon as possible, but didn't really take the time to watch if every fish ate the new food.

Willie

[Second Hand Pat]

I wonder if the early and continuous feeding of BBS contributes to the uniformity in size?? or is there more to it?
Pat

[Tshethar]

I also think that keeping the light on 24/7 and the temp warm (around 86, iirc) contributed to their impressive growth, as it seems they were grazing almost constantly in between water changes. Great to see some of this discussion at this stage!

[warblad79]

Good reading lots of information.

[sanjay21]

Good observation Willie.
Things Bryan is doing is clearly showing on the fish.
I like his idea on not feeding frozen beefheart too soon but go with beefheart flakes (keeps water cleaner and no choking problems)
I also like the idea on keeping lights 24/7 with 86temp, I keep mine at 84.
If not for Bryan’s fish doing the talking I would not have agreed with lights being on 24/7 being a good thing. I would think that it will stress them more. But clearly it’s not doing that I guess ..

[Willie]

Dang, I had a jumper! 30 gal cube with covered glass lid. Sigh!

Willie

[LizStreithorst]

I hope it wasn't one of the good ones. IME it is generally the best that bites the dust when a fish I care about dies.

[CraigJ]

Dang, I had a jumper! 30 gal cube with covered glass lid. Sigh!

Willie

Sorry to hear this Willie,

I’m guessing it wasn’t the little one showing stress/sickness.......

[Filip]

Just catching up with the threads in the contest after a 2 weeks break. Excellent observations and informations on growing fry in your thread Willie .
I'm sorry about your jumper , but try not to worry about all of them Individualy because at the end of contest as I recall , your best one is the only one that counts.
And like you already said , this is a marathon , not a Sprint ;) .
....Off I go now to visit other contestant threads .

[Willie]

Sorry to hear this Willie,

I’m guessing it wasn’t the little one showing stress/sickness.......

Yup. It was either the biggest or second biggest. Oh well, Willie

[Second Hand Pat]

Yup. It was either the biggest or second biggest. Oh well, Willie

That's a double bite Wille...sorry :(
Pat

[brewmaster15]

I hate when that happens!
Al

[Mando]

Since we started theorizing in this thread.

Willie, you have great observation! out of experience, how late in life can a discus start/finish developing the nice frontal curve before we consider it to be stunted?

So, non of my fry looked like Bryan's with the nice oval forehead; mine had the sharp > look. however, following Bryan's thread, as well as some of the other contestants, I've noticed in just 3 weeks that my fish have grown tremendously and all but one has developed the nice oval shape. I have my Alanquer nearing 3inches and I believe he's developing a nice shape now. I've noticed the same thing happened to my tiger turq in the main tank. It seemed like an Overnight change; after 5 months with the fish, he developed this curve and he finally lost his stress bars. I thought it was a new fish in my tank.

[fljones3]

Yup. It was either the biggest or second biggest. Oh well, Willie

Sigh .....

[sanjay21]

Yup. It was either the biggest or second biggest. Oh well, Willie

Sorry to hear that Willie ..

[jawfish]

I'm late to the tread but,thanks Willie for your observations, this is interesting and thought provoking. I love these grow out contests especially one starting with very young discus as they are a great learning experience for both participants and followers. Thanks Al !!!

Cheers,

Fred