Sick discus, or just the runt?

[danomoseley]

I have six checkerboard discus in a 55 gallon planted tank that has been up and running for about 6 months.

Five of the discus are all doing great, but one has been the runt since I got it about 4 months ago. It hides in the corner most of the time, has much less vibrant colors than the others, and has not grown as much as the others. The runt is an extremely picky eater, but during feeding time of freeze dried black worms does come out and swims quickly to eat.

Filtration: Eheim Pro 4+ 350


I have NOT noticed any white stringy poops, no fin rot, or obvious external issues.
30% water change weekly with RO water and Kent Liquid R/O Right
pH - 6.9
Temp - 83.5
Total Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5 ppm
~75 ppm TDS
KH - 4 degrees dKH
GH - 6 dGH
Phosphates - 0 ppm
injected co2 and seachem flourish added weekly


Is there anything that I can do to make him better?

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And the overall tank :)
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[danomoseley]

Bump? I'm not sure what to think about this guy? He does move around some, doesn't have stringy pool, but is definitely not as bright or active as the five others.

Thank you for any ideas!

[LizStreithorst]

He's for sure stunted. There's no changing that. Have you seen his poop at all? If it's black I don't think that anything can be done. He may just be the low man on the totem pole.

[danomoseley]

Thank you for the reply! I have not specifically seen the poop, but I have never seen the signature white/clear stringy poop, I try to observe him as often as I can looking for things like that.

I have noticed recently some minor red streaking around his mouth (which you can see if you look closely at the photos), but that's the only difference I've noticed besides the fading of color.

[danomoseley]

I have noticed that he hides in the corner more during the day, in the morning before the lights come on he will be part of the pack hanging around with the others.

[danomoseley]

PS, here's a live stream I have setup for my tank.

https://youtu.be/rQHQlnaidi0

[LizStreithorst]

It could be that it pics up food and spits it out. If so, you will see no poop. Spend some time in front of the tank after feeding what he seems to like best and wait for him to poo. It needs to be black.

[danomoseley]

It could be that it pics up food and spits it out. If so, you will see no poop. Spend some time in front of the tank after feeding what he seems to like best and wait for him to poo. It needs to be black.

Thank you, I will watch him closely tonight!

[danomoseley]

I watched him for a while after feeding a freeze dried blackworms cube and he has very little interest in food and didn't even pick up and spit out any that I saw. I even placed a second cube in the back where he sits thinking he might be avoiding the main cube because of bullying, but he had no interest in that cube either. I also added a tiny bit of garlicguard and nothing.

All six were extremely picky when I first got them, picking up and spitting out everything. Could not get them to eat color bits or any sort of flakes or granules, the one thing they would eat was frozen bloodworms. After a few months of trying seemingly every food possible I found the freeze dried blackworms which they love. I have loose worms in an eheim auto feeder fed a few times throughout the day and also give them a cube every few days.

The runt used to enjoy the blackworms too, he would eat the extras that end up floating around in the water column but sometimes making runs into the cube and taking big bites. That must have stopped sometime recently and I just wasn't watching closely enough while feeding..

[LizStreithorst]

My advice to you would be to treat all of them with Metro at the rate of 400 mg per 10 gallons for 10 to 12 days. Raise the heat to as high as 93 during treatment. Do huge WC, as much as 90% daily if you can. While the heat is high it's best to add more air since warmer water uses up more O2 than cooler water.

[danomoseley]

My advice to you would be to treat all of them with Metro at the rate of 400 mg per 10 gallons for 10 to 12 days. Raise the heat to as high as 93 during treatment. Do huge WC, as much as 90% daily if you can. While the heat is high it's best to add more air since warmer water uses up more O2 than cooler water.

Is there a specific reason that you would recommend treating all of them? Could I treat the one with this regimen in a hospital tank? Thanks!

[LizStreithorst]

some people would advise treating just the one fish showing symptoms. My thinking is that the fish have been swimming around together so they are all infected even though it's just the weakest one that shows symptoms.

[danomoseley]

some people would advise treating just the one fish showing symptoms. My thinking is that the fish have been swimming around together so they are all infected even though it's just the weakest one that shows symptoms.

That does make sense.. I'm just worried about excess stress on the others because they are all doing seemingly very well, and affecting my main tank water params since they have been so nice and stable. Do you think the Metro or high temp would be hard on my plants or plecos? The plants are a mix of monte carlo and dwarf baby tears.

I am purchasing Metro from Jehmco, is there any other common meds that you would recommend I order while I'm at it?

I'm planning to set up a 20G hospital tank in a plastic container, no filter, air stone, heated to 93. Treating with 400mg/10G Metro dosed once per day after a ~90% water change for 10-12 days.

[LizStreithorst]

The plants may object to the high temp. I think that the plecos will handle it alright.

Don't worry about stressing the others. Metro is a very gentle med and the high temps will just get their metabolism working faster.

[danomoseley]

The plants may object to the high temp. I think that the plecos will handle it alright.

Don't worry about stressing the others. Metro is a very gentle med and the high temps will just get their metabolism working faster.

Ok it does make sense to just treat them all to be safe and I think I can handle some possible die back with the plants. Should I run the canister filter during the treatment? I think I read Metro isn't harmful to helpful bacteria?

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, just take out the carbon if you have it in your canister.

[danomoseley]

Yes, just take out the carbon if you have it in your canister.

Ok great, I don't have any carbon in there.

I use RO/DI water for water changes with Kent liquid R/O right to get the trace minerals back. I have a 20 gallon Brute utility container with auto shutoff for the RO, circulator pump, and heater to stabilize the water before re-adding to the tank. This holds about ~15 gallons of finished water which is my normal ~30% water change.

This is basically a long way of asking if you think it would be alright to do multiple 30% water changes per day instead of the suggested 90% water change.

[LizStreithorst]

One big one would be better but if you do 3 30% be sure to add back the metro that you remove with each WC.

[danomoseley]

One big one would be better but if you do 3 30% be sure to add back the metro that you remove with each WC.

Understood, thank you. I have ordered the metro and it should be here by Monday. I will post updates.

Thank you again for the advice.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm glad to help you, Dan. Don't be surprised if you see no results until the very end of treatment.

[danomoseley]

I will plan to run the full 12 day cycle then. For the temperature raise, would you recommend raising it gradually over a period of time, maybe a day or two?

[LizStreithorst]

yes

[danomoseley]

We were planning to go away next weekend, which would be 5 days into the treatment. Would it be possible to skip the water changes while we are away for days 6 and 7?

[LizStreithorst]

Don't start treatment until you are back home.

[danomoseley]

For the first dose, do you just dose directly into the tank? Or dissolve in water and add?

I raised the temp to 86 and will increase 2 degrees at a time slowly through tomorrow. Also added a bubble bar.

[LizStreithorst]

Always dissolve in water first.

I forgot to tell you. If you change water just once daily, redose for the entire volume of the tank, not just for the water you took out during WC.

[danomoseley]

Thanks, will do. Fingers crossed!

[danomoseley]

You had said to do large water changes "as much as 90% if you can". I don't think 90% is going to be possible with my substrate and carpet, without having the fish totally out of water for a few minutes..

Would 55% be sufficient? Are the benefits significant increasing from 55% to say 75%?

I think I could make some changes to my setup to get to 75%, but the fish won't have much of any room to move around when the level gets low. The water pressure of the faucet I attach the python to is pretty low so I get a slow drain rate and they'll be stuck in the low volume for ~10 minutes.

[LizStreithorst]

I had no idea that you were treating in a planted tank. Don't you have a BB tank that you could do the treatment in. If not, you'll have to treat them in the tank they're in now. It won't hurt them to be in a low volume of water for 10 minutes. As long as they have enough water to breath they'll be fine. Go with 75%.

[danomoseley]

There are pictures of the tank in the original post, and I asked about the effects of the metro and high temp on the specific plants that are in there... Anyway, I do not have an extra tank, nor the space for one in my apartment.

I will go for 75%.

[LizStreithorst]

Sorry. I forgot.

[danomoseley]

Sorry. I forgot.

No problem, thanks again for the help.

I started the treatment last night and second treatment this afternoon. The temp is up to 88 now and I will raise it up to 90 later tonight.

[LizStreithorst]

:thumbsup:

[danomoseley]

I am at day 11 now and will continue through tomorrow, and then probably ease the heat back down to 84 over a few days longer.

The sick guy is looking slightly better in the last day or so, expressing a little more interest in food but still spitting most of it back out.

My pH is settling down to about 5.7 now pretty consistently. It went down gradually with each big water change and now is very steady day after day around 5.7-5.8, which makes sense for RO water. After quite a bit of searching around these forums I've found what I think is a consensus that this pH is a pretty good range for them, but also any stable pH is good. Do you agree that 5.7-5.8 is a good place to keep it?

Thanks!

[danomoseley]

:thumbsup:

2 days past the end of the treatment and unfortunately the sick fish is still acting about the same as before the treatment. Sitting still in the back corner of the tank most of the time and not eating much. I've lowered the temp back down to 88 now.

[brewmaster15]

2 days past the end of the treatment and unfortunately the sick fish is still acting about the same as before the treatment. Sitting still in the back corner of the tank most of the time and not eating much. I've lowered the temp back down to 88 now.

I would place it in a hospital tank Dan and see if you can coax it to eat some live foods.. The problem with parasite infections is they can damage the internal organs, this takes time to heal, and meanwhile the fish isn't feeling well and is feeling vulnerable, which only stresses its immune repair mechanisms more.Its a down ward spiral for some fish.

hth.
al

[fivestar68]

Hi dan, just remember to remove any carbon filters or the metro becomes less effective. If none of your other Discus are not showing any symptoms of sickness I personally with the advise from Kenny at Kenny's Discus would only treat the Discus showing sickness. Also I would advise you to set up a quarantine tank so your plants are not affected by the heat. I always root for the little guys!!!! Best of luck bud! Here are my Discus 3 months later. https://youtu.be/7Zy9Aog0xTk

[danomoseley]

I would place it in a hospital tank Dan and see if you can coax it to eat some live foods.. The problem with parasite infections is they can damage the internal organs, this takes time to heal, and meanwhile the fish isn't feeling well and is feeling vulnerable, which only stresses its immune repair mechanisms more.Its a down ward spiral for some fish.

hth.
al

Thank you for the reply Al. What are your thoughts on using a 20 gallon brute trash can (what I use for water aging) as a hospital tank? I don't have a lot of extra room in the apartment.. What kind of live foods would you recommend?

The fish is acting slightly better today, moving around the tank more and not staying in the corner quite as much. I fed them a freeze dried blackworms cube and the sick fish swam all around the food, sometimes making quick movements toward a floating worm as if about to eat it but then backs away at the last second.

[danomoseley]

About two weeks since the finish of the Metro treatment, the fish is moving around the tank more and eating some but not as much as the others yet. He still stays in one corner a lot of the time, but moves up and down in the water column more than before and definitely moves around the tank more than pre-treatment.

He still has very pale color and fins have begun to deteriorate in the last few days. It doesn't look like fin rot I don't think? Attached are a few photos

Temp - 85°
pH - 6.7
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5
Ammonia - 0
KH - 4°
GH - 3°
Phosphates - 0

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[LizStreithorst]

I hate to throw meds and fish but it were my fish I would put it back in the QT tank and treat it with Furan II

[danomoseley]

I hate to throw meds and fish but it were my fish I would put it back in the QT tank and treat it with Furan II

Thanks for the reply Liz, would you just treat the one fish?

[LizStreithorst]

In this case yes. I wish someone else would chime in. I've been around the block a few times but I don't know everything,

[danomoseley]

I'm setting up a 20 gallon hospital tank with a new sponge filter. I'm planning to fill the new tank 50% with water from the main tank.

Can large daily water changes be done while dosing the Furan-2? The instructions say 25% every two days during treatment. I was thinking >80% daily while dosing because the filter isn't cycled.

[danomoseley]

I have done 3 doses of Furan 2 in the HT and will do the final dose tomorrow according to the instructions. I have been doing 50% daily water changes followed by dosing the Furan for the full tank water amount. I'm doing the 50% daily water changes because the sponge filter wasn't full cycled when I set up the HT at the start of the treatment, but I did seed it with an extra filter pad I keep in the bottom of my main tank canister filter.

There has been slightly more deterioration to the dorsal and anal fins. Today I noticed some white fuzzy strands coming off the ventral and anal fins still. The fish is looking generally better in color, moving around more, more responsive to me approaching the tank, and eating live blackworms.

My question is should I complete the treatment with the 4th dose tomorrow or continue for another round?