Problem with my breeding pair

[belvius]

Hello, I am having some problems with the my male Red Valentine. The pair was taking care of about 100 fry but after 10 days I was losing around 10 fry a day and I had no idea why. I tried doing a pp bath on them but no luck. After all the fry are removed I noticed that there are two little white dots on the male's forehead. A day later all I see is the male just laying at the bottom. Once in a while it will swim up and errantically then fall back into the same position. I do 50% daily WC and I store 70RO/30tap in a 35 gal holding tank before doing WC. Can anyone help me out with what's going on with him?

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[RogueDiscus]

Hi Jeff,
Sorry you're having trouble. I don't know what's going on, but I've reached out to a couple folks. Hopefully you'll get some feedback soon.

[LizStreithorst]

I didn't mean to ignore you but like Steve I am clueless. It's a super nice pair. If anyone can figure out what's wrong it's a few folks here. How is he today?

[belvius]

I have been doing 100% WC everyday and dosing MetroPlex. This is day 3 and he seems to be using both fins again and swimming a little bit. He is starting to get all these white dots on the body, I am not sure if it is Ich?

[jeep]

What's your temp? It's probably not ich if you're above 84. Other than that, I'm really not sure. If they are breathing good, I would ease the temp up to 90 and add 3-5 TBS salt per 10g. I'll also do some asking around...

[danotaylor]

I'm no expert by any means but I think I read a comment by Al recently that "pimples" can become a more serious deeper infection. I am a critical care RN and these are my nursing judgment thoughts. Because of the location of the 2 open sores on the forehead could it be progressing to hole in the head? The area surrounding the poc-mark on the left of the pic (right side of forehead) looks reddened and inflamed. Because of the proximity to the nostrils, and the nasal passge's proximity to the brain, any infection/swelling in that area could progress quickly to show neurological symptoms. I have never had/treated HITH before so hopefully if my hypothesis is thought to be reasonable a treatment option will he forthcoming quickly.
All the best mate

[danotaylor]

The red area is the poc-mark I mentioned and the black line indicates the area of redness and inflammation I am concerned for. These 2 signs in a human are strong indicators for bacterial infection.
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[belvius]

My temp is currently at 86. Is it ok to add aquarium salt on top of the metro? He is beginning to swim around and float at the top rather just laying at the bottom

Unfortunately the left poc mark has indeed turned into a hole :( but the one of the right seems to be slowly disappearing

Here is a pic of the white marks on the male:
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[danotaylor]

Yes on the salt question. I don't think metro is the med of choice for HITH though. If it is bacterial you shouldn't raise the temp anymore. High temps are for parasitic infestations. I hope Al or another experienced keeper jumps in here soon...

[warblad79]

Seems to be bacterial so keep the temp between 82-84...you can combine these meds for better results Kanamycin + Furan 2 + metro.

[LizStreithorst]

Warbald is correct but from what Al said about this condition it is something very difficult to cure

[belvius]

What condition will that be? I initially thought it was HITH but I guess it is more serious than that? I checked on him this morning and he is swimming in the middle using both fins

[LizStreithorst]

It sounds like the metro is working. Does he still have little spots all over his body?

[belvius]

Yes he does have those little spots. Just came home and the pair both came up to the tank looking for food. Fed a tiny piece of beef heart and they are both eating.

Should I still dose metro for another couple days or am I ok with doing 100%WC with just adding salt?

[LizStreithorst]

I would keep with the Metro. I'm not sure if the other antibiotics would be necessary or not. I think that Al would advise you to add at least the Kanamycin but I've never had those symptoms in my fish so I can't say for sure.

[Filip]

I wouldn't break the course of metro either, at least for 7-8 days .
I'm totally caught up and unsure about the root cause of this odd symthoms but I would consider salt or PP dips as a part of the treatment because those methods can be pretty efficient in burning external pathogens (dots , zips , protozoans trophont stage etc. ) .

[belvius]

I have been adding 4tsp salt and 3 scoops of MetroPlex along with my 100% WC daily. I did do a half dosage pp bath about a week ago while there were still fry in it. Should I do another pp bath again on them with full dosage (2mg/L)?

This morning when I go to check up on him he's coming up again, looks like the hole in his head closed up a bit as well

[danotaylor]

Any news Jeff? I hope you start seeing more improvements in the condition of the male...glad they have been more active & eating...

[belvius]

Thanks to everyone's advice he is a lot better now! He is very active and eating beef heart, FDBW & discus granules, the white spots on the body are still there unfortunately. I am going to keep doing daily WCs adding salt and see how he progesses

[danotaylor]

Good news mate. Very good signs he is recovering. I wonder if he might benefit from some stress guard to help replenish his slime coat?
Fortunately as he kicks into breeding mode again any residual spots/scarring would not be passed on thru his genetics.

[Filip]

Try a one time salt or PP dip in a bucket right before your 100% WC if you've done it in the past and you feel confident doing it . Maybe that will help getting rid of those dots .
I'm glad things are heading for better .

[brewmaster15]

I would go with a salt dip.

al

[LizStreithorst]

I'm so glad you saw this thread, Al. I knew that we were giving good advice but I also knew that you could advise him better than any of us. I'd have gone with PP. Good thing I kept my mouth shut.

[brewmaster15]

I'm so glad you saw this thread, Al. I knew that we were giving good advice but I also knew that you could advise him better than any of us. I'd have gone with PP. Good thing I kept my mouth shut.

Liz,
You all were doing just fine.. and a PP bath would probably have been well worth trying. The only reason I would go with a salt dip is its done in bucket and doesn't knock back your filter and the OP appears to have a bacteria infection on those fish. The salt dip can help alot by removing excess slime and promoting slime coat turn over. The op mentioned this pair had fry for a while. If they were making slime and no longer had the fry, sometimes you get opportunistic bacteria that get established. I've had it happen here once in a while. A good salt dip usually fixes it by sloughing off all that junk. PP would oxidize it off, but is rough on gills.

hth,
al

[LizStreithorst]

Got it. Thanks for going into detail for me.

[belvius]

I don't have any experience with doing any salt/pp dip on discus, but I did see online that I have to mix 500 grams of aquarium salt in 3 gallon of water and leave him in there for 30-60 seconds?

The white spots on his body are getting less by each day already, the left side is mostly gone and the right side still has a tiny bit remaining, is it still recommended that I do a salt dip?

[Filip]

If things are getting better maybe you should wait a couple of days more and just observe .
If you sometime decide to do salt dip for the first time I would recommend weaker salt solution(half this recommended dose ) with prolonged immersion time and observing discus through the whole procedure .
If discus starts loosing balance , lean on side , bend it's tail fin or start gasping for air on the surface you stop the dip .

[belvius]

So I put the cone back into the tank since the male got a lot better. The female decided to lay eggs yesterday on the cone but the male refuses to fertilize them. Is there something I need to do in order to trigger the male to want to breed again?

Also, if I was to remove one of them to my show tank what is the proper way to acclimatizing them? My breeding tank is a 70/30 RO/tap mix and around 6.8 pH but my display tank is at 100 tap with about 7.8 pH

[danotaylor]

Given you recent bout of unidentified disease I would not recommend mixing either of these fish with you show tank fish. Even though the Male seems to he recovering, both fish could be carriers of whatever the male succumbed too. QT is recommended as 6 weeks of careful observation of health. During the recovery time of this pair please research the quarantine process using the search engine on this site. Loads of good info about how to prep fish for mixing together. When the time does come to mix, people here seem to advocate for temperature adjustment only, then plop and drop em in, even up to a full 2 point pH differential. Your 1 point should he fine according to people recommendations and experience here.
I think the Male will get back on the horse again soon with breeding. Give them lots of big WC's and good food and he will get in the mood again ;)

[belvius]

So for some reason the male is develop a HITH again but at a different spot.. I do 50% daily WC, squeeze out the sponge filter and wipe down the sides once a week. Am I doing something wrong here? I use the same regime on my other breeding tank and the pair and fry are all very healthy


The female is still very active and would come up for food. When the female tries to lay eggs on the cone the male would just go up to eat all of it instead of fertilizing it..

[brewmaster15]

Did you try the salt dip I had suggested? The fish probably has an excessive amount of opportunistic bacteria on its surface and slime coat. Salt dips would help strip all that away.

When pores getting blocked up bacteria can get established and create one firm of HITH we see in discus.(think of it as pimples in humans) Salt dips can treat this. If your fish get extensive HITH and uncharacteristic behavior like not eating, off colored feces or listlessness than you may be dealing with an internal parasite like hexamita or a systemic bacterial infection. These would need more aggressive treatments.

very conservative and safe method...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip

Al

[belvius]

Hi Al, no I have not tried to salt dip yet, I am currently back to doing 100% WC and dosing metro.

Should I do the salt dip after the wound has closed up or should I do it right away? If I was to do the salt dip right away, do I have to continue doing the 100% WC or just continue my normal routine after the dip?