dandestroy
08-18-2019, 04:46 PM
One of my discus has been sick for a while, and I have been treating it in vain... but this morning I've made some progress. He finally pooped something I could put under the microscope. I'll get through the questionnaire first;
DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE
Problem
1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Acquire the fish in Dec 2018 (3") form a reputable supplier here. Did proper QT/deworming, etc. all other fish from that order has been growing very nicely. It’s a Red Melon, believe it or not. Over time he slowly ate less and less than the others. I figured he was just the runt of the batch, or bullied by the rest. But the other fish became nice and thick, where this one slowly became more emaciated, and hate less and less, loss colors, and gain peppering.
2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Very Emaciated, very pale, does not heat, hang out in the corner of the tank by himself, rarely eat. Rarely poop
3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include the dosage and duration of treatment.
Suspected intestinal parasites, ongoing for months.
I moved him to a 10G QT (75-90% WC daily, except when noted otherwise)
Progressively raised temp to 92F for 4 days, and back down to 86 over that 12 day period.
On Day 1 Started a course of Prazipro (5 days, full dose every day after a water change)
On Day 3 and on again Day10 did a course of Levamisole (78mg/10gallons (2ppm), 48hr no WC
On Day 1 started on metronidazole, 400mg/10gallons (~10ppm) (10 days, full dose every day even on non-water change day).
ON Day 11 did an epsom salt treatment (1 teaspon/10 gallon, for 4 hr).
On day 12 he poops white mucus with I used for the scope image below.
The fish did gain a bit of color when at 92F, and hate a bit of FDCBW (barely, not enough to hope to feed him medicated flake food, did not care for any other food).
The levamisole was definitively tough on him, became very pale, and less interest in trying to eat (the picture of him is ton Day 12).
Currently Day 12, at 86F in clean water, no meds
Tank/Water
4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
QT tank, 10 gallons, 86F (75-90% WC daily, except when noted otherwise)
The main tank where he was before;
- 200 gallons, bare bottom with sump
- 22 Discus, varies 4" to 7"
5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Main tank: 80% twice a week
6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
About 12 months
Bare bottom
30” deep
7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No aging, use a sponge setup during filling that prevents microbubble
Water comes out the pipe at 30 ppm, super soft, I poor it at matching Tank temp of 83.5.
During WC, tank pH goes to 7.2, and drops back to 6.8 within 3-4 hr, and then is usually over 6.7 rest of the time.
8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
It goes through a big blue canister with high-pressure Carbon block cartridge, which removes all the chlorine (there is no chloramine in the city water here).
9. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.
- temp 83.5
- ph 6.7
- ammonia reading 0
- nitrite reading 0
- nitrate reading 0-10 (0 after WC, 5, sometimes 10 before next WC)
What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.
- municipal water only
10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No
11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Main diet FDCBW 4 cubes twice a day.
Swapped for Frozen blood worm, Frozen brine shrimp, CBW pellet every now and then
12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
This is him.
https://i.imgur.com/VcnykxY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CWQmBR7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/03q0fUe.jpg
This is siblings from the same batch
https://i.imgur.com/nzJ0gAc.jpg
=====================
I know there will be some hate about combining meds, but most of these meds can be combined just fine.
It may be hard on the liver, but this guy is in rough shape, so I felt I had to push hard quick.
Also, I know some would say give up, he will never grow big enough, etc.
but as long as he is alive, and there is a scientific path to go with, I can’t really give up here IMO.
He rarely poops, because he rarely eats, but maybe the epsom salt got him going, so I took a microscope picture and video of what I found.
I’m showing 200x and 400x.
This looks like a protozoan, but it is not Hexamita in my opinion (I’m seen Hex on my scope before, it’s not the same shape and you can usually see the long flagella, where here it’s a bunch of cilia all around… this move differently then Hex as well).
After all I did treatment wise, I don’t think metro will do it (maybe double the dose, and go to 92C for longer?).
under the micsrocope at 200x and 400x
https://i.imgur.com/KqgzJpE.jpg
https://youtu.be/yRZgCefLrHg
My best guess is Tetrahymena.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AACrVZzqOk
And here is and Abstract on a proposed treatment
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20298452
So I’m open to suggestions on what to do next, and help in the ID of this parasite and pick a treatment path.
I obviously would like to treat the whole main tank if this we can fix this guy.
DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE
Problem
1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Acquire the fish in Dec 2018 (3") form a reputable supplier here. Did proper QT/deworming, etc. all other fish from that order has been growing very nicely. It’s a Red Melon, believe it or not. Over time he slowly ate less and less than the others. I figured he was just the runt of the batch, or bullied by the rest. But the other fish became nice and thick, where this one slowly became more emaciated, and hate less and less, loss colors, and gain peppering.
2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Very Emaciated, very pale, does not heat, hang out in the corner of the tank by himself, rarely eat. Rarely poop
3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include the dosage and duration of treatment.
Suspected intestinal parasites, ongoing for months.
I moved him to a 10G QT (75-90% WC daily, except when noted otherwise)
Progressively raised temp to 92F for 4 days, and back down to 86 over that 12 day period.
On Day 1 Started a course of Prazipro (5 days, full dose every day after a water change)
On Day 3 and on again Day10 did a course of Levamisole (78mg/10gallons (2ppm), 48hr no WC
On Day 1 started on metronidazole, 400mg/10gallons (~10ppm) (10 days, full dose every day even on non-water change day).
ON Day 11 did an epsom salt treatment (1 teaspon/10 gallon, for 4 hr).
On day 12 he poops white mucus with I used for the scope image below.
The fish did gain a bit of color when at 92F, and hate a bit of FDCBW (barely, not enough to hope to feed him medicated flake food, did not care for any other food).
The levamisole was definitively tough on him, became very pale, and less interest in trying to eat (the picture of him is ton Day 12).
Currently Day 12, at 86F in clean water, no meds
Tank/Water
4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
QT tank, 10 gallons, 86F (75-90% WC daily, except when noted otherwise)
The main tank where he was before;
- 200 gallons, bare bottom with sump
- 22 Discus, varies 4" to 7"
5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
Main tank: 80% twice a week
6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
About 12 months
Bare bottom
30” deep
7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No aging, use a sponge setup during filling that prevents microbubble
Water comes out the pipe at 30 ppm, super soft, I poor it at matching Tank temp of 83.5.
During WC, tank pH goes to 7.2, and drops back to 6.8 within 3-4 hr, and then is usually over 6.7 rest of the time.
8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
It goes through a big blue canister with high-pressure Carbon block cartridge, which removes all the chlorine (there is no chloramine in the city water here).
9. Parameters and water source;
Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.
- temp 83.5
- ph 6.7
- ammonia reading 0
- nitrite reading 0
- nitrate reading 0-10 (0 after WC, 5, sometimes 10 before next WC)
What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.
- municipal water only
10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No
11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Main diet FDCBW 4 cubes twice a day.
Swapped for Frozen blood worm, Frozen brine shrimp, CBW pellet every now and then
12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
This is him.
https://i.imgur.com/VcnykxY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CWQmBR7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/03q0fUe.jpg
This is siblings from the same batch
https://i.imgur.com/nzJ0gAc.jpg
=====================
I know there will be some hate about combining meds, but most of these meds can be combined just fine.
It may be hard on the liver, but this guy is in rough shape, so I felt I had to push hard quick.
Also, I know some would say give up, he will never grow big enough, etc.
but as long as he is alive, and there is a scientific path to go with, I can’t really give up here IMO.
He rarely poops, because he rarely eats, but maybe the epsom salt got him going, so I took a microscope picture and video of what I found.
I’m showing 200x and 400x.
This looks like a protozoan, but it is not Hexamita in my opinion (I’m seen Hex on my scope before, it’s not the same shape and you can usually see the long flagella, where here it’s a bunch of cilia all around… this move differently then Hex as well).
After all I did treatment wise, I don’t think metro will do it (maybe double the dose, and go to 92C for longer?).
under the micsrocope at 200x and 400x
https://i.imgur.com/KqgzJpE.jpg
https://youtu.be/yRZgCefLrHg
My best guess is Tetrahymena.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AACrVZzqOk
And here is and Abstract on a proposed treatment
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20298452
So I’m open to suggestions on what to do next, and help in the ID of this parasite and pick a treatment path.
I obviously would like to treat the whole main tank if this we can fix this guy.