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Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 03:23 AM
tank ph8.8 after meds and salt
Rodi waste side 150ppm ph7.8
Rodi 0ppm ph6.4
Tap ph7.4
temp 85
ammonia .50ppm
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate 0ppm
Vitachem
8 tables spoons Epsom
10 tablespoons aquarium salt
4 packs furan-2
80 drops cupramine

I've been running my 90 gallon tank only half full. To reduce amount of ro water I need to change and amount medication i need to use. Also to reduce stress on tail standing fish incase of bladder disorder.

Problem started about a month ago, one fish showed signs of several worms protruding from the anus. Kind of white ish with a black spot on the tip of them.

I was recommend to treat with fenbendazole. I treated for 3 days I reduced feeding during this time and added epsom salt to try and reduce death due to constipation from passing the dead worms.

The fish did not take this treatment well. They seemed lethargic and show some fin rot/melt. I have not done the 2nd treatment following the 2 weeks due to other issues. "Side note About 2 months ago I did a treatment with metronidazole. I did full treatment."

Between all the extra water changes from the medications recommendations and already high water change requirements of discus. I decided to move my tank down stairs closer to my rodi water system. To make water changes easier.

I have all the fish in a 5 gallon bucket I decided to treat with potassium permanganate. I ended up overdosing them, they had that slim build up cover most of their body's and gills from over oxidation of the PP. The fish are looking pretty bad at this point. I immediately put them in fresh water and rinse there gills to clear of all slim build up.

2 fish almost died but all recovered. Several fish have fin rot/melt
And 3 have cloudy eye now. Some fish seem a little off balanced.

I treat with kannaplex dosing 3 times total ever 2 days. Cloudy eye has gone. Most of the fin rot/melt has gone. Now 2 discus are tail standing and 1 other discus has developed HITH.

I let the fish be with 50%water changes every other day. For about 4 days. No fish are getting better.

Tail standing fish are becoming more off balanced and unable to swim properly. I go to the LFS they recommend me to use ick cure in combination with Furan-2 and Aqurium salt. After adding medication a 3rd discus starts tail standing.

Video of the fish

https://youtu.be/42eitKedT4Y

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 03:26 AM
Let me know if you need more info I will post asap. Also sorry for my terrible use of the english language ��

danotaylor
10-31-2019, 07:23 AM
How long has the tank been running? You have done so much with these fish it is hard to know what's really happened.
With your ammonia at 0.5 and no nitrite or nitrates your fin rot could be from ammonia burns because your filter is not cycled fully...stress from all the treatments and ammonia combined could have weakened their immunity and left them susceptible to all kinds of secondary issues such as HITH and swim bladder infections.
You're gonna need expert help to navigate the appropriate course of action here so I'm gonna tap out...

Second Hand Pat
10-31-2019, 07:24 AM
I am not exactly sure what to say. What meds are you using exactly now? Also are the fish in RO water only? If not, how and where are you mixing your water and are you aging it?
Pat

Second Hand Pat
10-31-2019, 07:27 AM
How long has the tank been running? You have ammonia at 0.5 and no nitrite or nitrates. Your fin prob could be from ammonia burns because your filter is not cycled fully...

Good point Danny :) A de-chlorinator will help with the ammonia.
Pat

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 09:32 AM
I'm using a mix of the 0ppm rodi water and the waste water which is 150ppm. Everything listed at the top of the original post is current water chemistry. Also I add in vitachem to the water to replace nutrients.

The tank has been running a long time but the main filter is not hook up currently and the tank is operating off of 4 sponge filter that have also been in the tank a long time.

With the amount of water changes I've been doing I'm not sure how the ammonia is even getting that high.

I forgot to mention there is stress coat/de cholirinator in the water also.

Second Hand Pat
10-31-2019, 09:47 AM
Are you mixing the RO/tap in the tank or an aging bin? Guessing a ph of 8.8 is a typo?
Pat

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 01:00 PM
No I am not using tap, just a base reference for the ph...

I mentioned in the last post that I am mixing ro/waste water since they are both chlorine free.
One for minerals and the other to keep the hardness low.

I wrote in the original post idk why the ph is so high.

My guess would be from the salt and meds...
Also why I'm wondering if I am getting a incorrect reading on ammonia.

Also dont forget api master kit can not differentiate between safe and hazardous ammonia.

Second Hand Pat
10-31-2019, 01:05 PM
No I am not using tap, just a base reference.

I wrote in the original post idk why the ph is so high.

My guess would be from the salt and meds...
Also why I'm wondering if I am getting a incorrect reading on ammonia.

OK, so how are you mixing the ro/ro waste in the tank or an aging bin. Also what is the ratio of RO to RO waste water?
Pat

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 01:17 PM
I have been doing 50% water changes every 2 days. With new meds I will be increasing this to every 24 hours.

at current water change levels. The water ages for about 1 to 2 days. Idk why ro water would need to be aged tho?

30 gallons RO
20 gallons Waste/RO
mixing in tank

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 03:53 PM
It's been about 12 hours since I started medication based on LFS recommendations. Fish do not seem to be getting any worse at this point. Definitely not any better either tho. All fish are trying to eat.

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 05:28 PM
.

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 05:43 PM
I have been doing 50% water changes every 2 days. With new meds I will be increasing this to every 24 hours.

at current water change levels. The water ages for about 1 to 2 days. Idk why ro water would need to be aged tho?

30 gallons RO
20 gallons Waste/RO
mixing in tank

Correction
10 ro waste
15 ro

Kingcolt
10-31-2019, 08:10 PM
OK, so how are you mixing the ro/ro waste in the tank or an aging bin. Also what is the ratio of RO to RO waste water?
Pat

I was miss reading what you where saying this morning I was half asleep I thought you were asking if I was aging the water. Sorry for misunderstanding, thank you for your help so far.

Yes I'm mixing the water in tank.

Since you're asking I'm going to go ahead and guess that i should pre mix the water before adding it to the tank.

Did the 24 hour water change since meds. And redosed per instruction.

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2019, 07:34 AM
I was miss reading what you where saying this morning I was half asleep I thought you were asking if I was aging the water. Sorry for misunderstanding, thank you for your help so far.

Yes I'm mixing the water in tank.

Since you're asking I'm going to go ahead and guess that i should pre mix the water before adding it to the tank.

Did the 24 hour water change since meds. And redosed per instruction.

Hi Kingcolt, yes you should pre-mix the RO/RO waste in an aging bin as the oscillating TDS during the mixing process is not good for the fish and aging it will outgas any CO2. Also I think you should discontinue the ick cure and Furan-2. Go with straight regular salt at 6 tablespoons to 10 gallons. Time to detox these fish and continue with the 50% daily water changes. Is there any reason why you are not using tap water?
Pat

Kingcolt
11-01-2019, 12:36 PM
So I dont have to remove the chlorine.
Alright I will start doing that right away.

I think it may be a swim bladder disorder should I contact a vet about antibiotics?

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2019, 01:20 PM
You always have to worry about dechlorinator, that’s what it to chlorinators for.
Pat

Second Hand Pat
11-01-2019, 01:21 PM
I would just do as I suggested in the prior post.
Pat

Kingcolt
11-01-2019, 02:56 PM
I would just do as I suggested in the prior post.
Pat

Will do! Just double checking. 6 table spoons per 10 gallons of aquarium salt?

Thank you pat

Kingcolt
11-01-2019, 05:53 PM
A 4th discus has succumb to this illness. 2 are now floating and 2 are laying on the bottom. ��

Kingcolt
11-03-2019, 01:05 AM
Looks like my biggest discus is starting to loose balance. I think I need to get antibiotics for these fish.

I'm pretty sure it's a swim bladder infection. And this requires antibiotics to treat, it wont go away since it's not from a over eating issue.

What do you think?

jeep
11-03-2019, 11:36 AM
I'm in agreement with Pat here but I have a few questions/comments. Please correct me if I get off base...

1. Why are you using RO water in the first place? Your TDS is very low and lowering it diminishes your waters ability to stabilize ph.
2. Cupramine is for external parasites and is copper based. I've read before that copper is more toxic in low ph. From my experience, overdosing copper can also create disorientation and neurological issues.
3. You used Fenbendazole. Fenbendazole has a history of creating tail standing issues.
4. You over dosed PP. This can burn the skin and cause major gill damage (oxygen starvation). Combine this with very ow TDS and your ph can crash causing acid burns and ammonia spikes (cloudy eyes, dissolved fins, etc...).
5. You treated with Kanaplex. Although it is a weaker version of the pure med, and usually safe to use, this could add just another issue for their organs to deal with.
6. Your procedures began after seeing possible worms. Why did you treat with Cupramine and PP (external issues)?
My guess is your discus are mainly suffering from drug overdose and gill damage created by ph crash and PP. I recommend you follow Pat's advise, get them into regular aged tap water with daily water changes and use the amount of salt she recommended.

Kingcolt
11-03-2019, 06:35 PM
I am currently following her directions.

I've treated for worms based on previous post as I was recommend to treat with metro/levamisole. A month or so later fish stopped breeding agian and showed signs of worms agian. This is why I went with the fabendozole.

I use RO water for breeding purposes and so that i do not have to use decholorinator all the time.

I do add vitamins to the water tho. And I thought that the low tds would just help keep the ph low. Also I use the RO water to maintain a low PH.

I've been told else were that putting this fish against the glass with a divider to reduce movement and lowering the water level to the height of the fish with a air stone near them is the best method for healing swim bladder disorders. Any advise on this?

Mando
11-04-2019, 02:08 PM
I am currently following her directions.

I've treated for worms based on previous post as I was recommend to treat with metro/levamisole. A month or so later fish stopped breeding agian and showed signs of worms agian. This is why I went with the fabendozole.

I use RO water for breeding purposes and so that i do not have to use decholorinator all the time.

I do add vitamins to the water tho. And I thought that the low tds would just help keep the ph low. Also I use the RO water to maintain a low PH.

I've been told else were that putting this fish against the glass with a divider to reduce movement and lowering the water level to the height of the fish with a air stone near them is the best method for healing swim bladder disorders. Any advise on this?

I do not think your issue is swim bladder. You started treating for worms and ended up with another issue. As Brian stated, Fenbendazole is known to cause fish to tail-stand. Detox as Pat suggested is the way to go. I hope your issues get better soon. You and these fish have gone through a lot.

Kingcolt
11-04-2019, 04:35 PM
Thank you for your advice I'm am still following her instructions although gibran out of salt last night. I will be getting more asap.

I lost the 2 that where floating last night ��
The 2 that are sank to the bottom are still alive though.

Kingcolt
11-05-2019, 05:08 AM
I lost the 2 that where floating last night ��
The 2 that are sank to the bottom are still alive though.

Now one that was perfectly healthy is starting to get this also.

There has to be something else going on here or why else do the healthy ones keep getting sick?

Is any one here sure that's this is from medication? Or is something else going on?

Kingcolt
11-05-2019, 06:09 AM
It's been a month if not longer since the fabendozole, there has to be something else going on here?

Sturiosoma
11-05-2019, 07:45 AM
This may sound like a silly question but what are you feeding these guys.

Jeanne

Mando
11-05-2019, 09:11 AM
It's been a month if not longer since the fabendozole, there has to be something else going on here?

do a search here on Fenbendazole and you will see the issues related to this medication.

Sturiosoma
11-05-2019, 09:42 AM
Also have you checked your parameters lately after the use of all these meds, you may have destroyed your biologics.

Jeanne

bluelagoon
11-05-2019, 01:14 PM
Also have you checked your parameters lately after the use of all these meds, you may have destroyed your biologics.

Jeanne

According to the first post, the biologcal filter is gone. I see ammonia and no nitrates. Brian (jeep) in his last post made some pretty good assessments. The fish look like they've been knocked down from being poisoned. It may have damaged internal organs like liver or kidneys that may take a bit longer to see the real effects from being poisoned/overdosed. It started with "just" worms and they could have survived a long time with those.

Kingcolt
11-05-2019, 03:21 PM
do a search here on Fenbendazole and you will see the issues related to this medication.

You think over a month later this will effect the fish?
A quick google search shows that the major effects take ahold of the fish 4 - 6 days after treatment.
Not over a month later.


Also have you checked your parameters lately after the use of all these meds, you may have destroyed your biologics.

Jeanne

No because I change the water every day.


This may sound like a silly question but what are you feeding these guys.

Jeanne

I've been feeding them very sparingly at this point. They will only eat blood worms.

Before they got sick they were eating flake food. Beef heart.

Kingcolt
11-05-2019, 04:12 PM
According to the first post, the biologcal filter is gone. I see ammonia and no nitrates. Brian (jeep) in his last post made some pretty good assessments. The fish look like they've been knocked down from being poisoned. It may have damaged internal organs like liver or kidneys that may take a bit longer to see the real effects from being poisoned/overdosed. It started with "just" worms and they could have survived a long time with those.

I've been doing daily water changes. Ammonia shouldn't be effecting them.

Mando
11-05-2019, 05:33 PM
You think over a month later this will effect the fish?
A quick google search shows that the major effects take ahold of the fish 4 - 6 days after treatment.
Not over a month later.



No because I change the water every day.





I'm not saying this is your case, but If the med was added to water, Some of the damages are permanent and some people had to euthanize the fish. One lost his entire fish room. Additionally, you said "The fish did not take this treatment well. They seemed lethargic and show some fin rot/melt."(check page 3 of link below)

Look at this thread as it talks about flubendazole and fenbendazole.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?30488-Flubendazole-side-effect/page4&highlight=fenbendazole

Kingcolt
11-05-2019, 05:51 PM
Damn doesn't look good atleast some times they recover after some time has passed.

I'll continue treatment of of daily water changes and salt.

bluelagoon
11-06-2019, 09:23 AM
I've been doing daily water changes. Ammonia shouldn't be effecting them.

The ammonia may or may not be affecting them, but a damaged filter by the looks of the reading you provided. But the damage to the liver may have happened a month ago and now the other things like ammonia and other meds may be too much for the liver and the toxins that are present in the body cannot be removerd by he liver or kidney. That's why they look poisoned/over dosed. Keep up he WC's their internal organs may recover. In humans a creatinine tests are done, especially in the immume compromised, like elderly to find the correct dose so the liver will metablize it. Sometimes humans can get overdosed, not every one is the same nor are species of fish that can handle some meds.

bluelagoon
11-06-2019, 09:29 AM
At ph 8.8 ammonia is very toxic.

jeep
11-06-2019, 10:30 AM
The ammonia may or may not be affecting them, but a damaged filter by the looks of the reading you provided. But the damage to the liver may have happened a month ago and now the other things like ammonia and other meds may be too much for the liver and the toxins that are present in the body cannot be removerd by he liver or kidney. That's why they look poisoned/over dosed. Keep up he WC's their internal organs may recover. In humans a creatinine tests are done, especially in the immume compromised, like elderly to find the correct dose so the liver will metablize it. Sometimes humans can get overdosed, not every one is the same nor are species of fish that can handle some meds.

I agree with this assessment. If there is a chance for recovery, I would stay your present course. Just remember though, prolonged exposure to salt can be just as harmful.

Kingcolt
11-06-2019, 05:50 PM
I haven't dosed salt last 2 days, I was about to buy some more though today. Should I go a few more days with out salt?

jeep
11-06-2019, 06:21 PM
I think at 5-6 tbs per 10g, you could probably go 5 days on, 5 days off for a few weeks to a month+. Heavier concentrations are used to help eradicate certain external bacteria or protozoa, but only for about 10-14 days.

If you see improvement you can ween them off the salt all together...

Kingcolt
11-07-2019, 01:40 PM
So my last 3 discus in this tank have been perfectly fine and now suddenly they are rail standing .....

Kingcolt
11-07-2019, 02:23 PM
This sucks. My last few discus that seemed to not be bothered at all during any of this turned up today into a tail stand ��

Mando
11-07-2019, 02:35 PM
This sucks. My last few discus that seemed to not be bothered at all during any of this turned up today into a tail stand ��

Check your water parameters again. Make sure your water is good.

I'm sorry you're going through this. This is beyond my experience and hopefully the professionals can help.

jeep
11-07-2019, 05:31 PM
I've looked in the archives as well as internet searches and two common factors are ph and fenbendazole. However, I've also seen that the effect of fenbendazole are temporary most of the time, not always.

I don't know what's going on, but everything seems to point to a reaction to fenbendazole. I wish we could be more specific.

Kingcolt
11-07-2019, 06:25 PM
I have a large ornate bichir and a African leaf fish and a large pleco in the tank so far all seem to be unaffected. Should I be worried about them doing this too?

jeep
11-07-2019, 06:55 PM
If I knew for sure it was the fenben then maybe I could answer that, but I can only speculate that if it would have happened, it would have by now.

One thing I did come across while searching is that this issue had not been exclusive to discus.

I don't remember if you mentioned it, but was this specifically a fish medicine or a commercial sheep dewormer?

bluelagoon
11-08-2019, 09:20 AM
You have mentioned that you did over dose with PP. And no mention of the dose of the dewormer. Not all fish species take to certain meds well. For example some scaleless fish and tetras can't handle more than half dosing of some meds.

Kingcolt
11-09-2019, 01:29 AM
My African leaf fish has turned on his side now, could this be a virus? And they are getting sick now because they were weakened by all the meds?

bluelagoon
11-09-2019, 09:35 AM
The fish did not take the treatment well. They seemed lethargic and had fin rot and melt. Like you mentioned. I think you answered your own question. I think there's damage you can't see. What ever meds destroyed the tissue on the out side, must have also destroyed some internal tissue too.

jeep
11-09-2019, 01:36 PM
I'm not sure. Have you tried filtering with carbon? This would remove any trace of previous medications, if that's even the issue.

I'm still curious about the source of your wormer.

Kingcolt
11-12-2019, 06:50 PM
1 discus is ok, ornate bichir is good. Pleco is good. Leaf fish seems to be on the recovery. 4 discus still laying on there sides. Still interested in food and still have strength to dart off when I tried to catch them to move the quarantine.

Kingcolt
11-12-2019, 06:51 PM
I'm not sure. Have you tried filtering with carbon? This would remove any trace of previous medications, if that's even the issue.

I'm still curious about the source of your wormer.

Which wormer are you wanting to know about

DiscusDish
11-12-2019, 07:37 PM
Hi, the wormer you used on the fish that are turning dark and being lethargic. :)

jeep
11-14-2019, 12:26 PM
I don't remember if you mentioned it, but was this specifically a fish medicine or a commercial sheep dewormer?

The specific wormer you used.

Kingcolt
11-14-2019, 05:13 PM
It's at the house I'll update later tonight

Kingcolt
11-14-2019, 05:15 PM
Hi, the wormer you used on the fish that are turning dark and being lethargic. :)

The fish are not turning dark.

Kingcolt
11-16-2019, 04:04 AM
Leaf fish is turning for the worse agian, my ornate bichir died. 4 discus same condition. 1 discus is fine. And pleco is fine


Brand of fenbendazole is by tomaslabs

Kingcolt
11-19-2019, 04:00 AM
Well what ever it is it is contagious. So thatd rule out over medication or damage to the organs from the meds.

bluelagoon
11-19-2019, 10:19 AM
I would not rule out damaged organs. This happened just 3 weeks ago. When you burned/over dosed them with PP; and maybe the dewormer. It may have set in a secondary bacteria infection due to open wounds, skin and fin damage. Who knows...It stared with worms and they could have lived a long time with them. Your first post says that it did damage organs; skin is an organ, also.

Kingcolt
11-20-2019, 03:22 AM
I would not rule out damaged organs. This happened just 3 weeks ago. When you burned/over dosed them with PP; and maybe the dewormer. It may have set in a secondary bacteria infection due to open wounds, skin and fin damage. Who knows...It stared with worms and they could have lived a long time with them. Your first post says that it did damage organs; skin is an organ, also.

My ornate bichir was not in the bucket of pp

Second Hand Pat
11-20-2019, 09:04 AM
Hi Kingcolt, I am sorry this is still continuing and honestly I have no suggestions. If I was in your shoes I would be doing lots of water changes to help detox the fish and you may be doing exactly that. :(
Pat

Kingcolt
11-27-2019, 05:35 AM
I just ordered clove oil and am heavily considering euthanizing the fish, idk what else to do at this point

Kingcolt
11-27-2019, 05:36 AM
Hi Kingcolt, I am sorry this is still continuing and honestly I have no suggestions. If I was in your shoes I would be doing lots of water changes to help detox the fish and you may be doing exactly that. :(
Pat

Thank you

bluelagoon
11-27-2019, 08:13 AM
Not all is at loss. Now, you know what not to do, next time. And in fish keeping there will always be a next time at some point...Sorry

Sturiosoma
11-27-2019, 09:03 AM
As a last resort you could try a peroxide treatment, it's a very safe and time honored treatment I would go with the 24hr treatment

Jeanne

Kingcolt
12-03-2019, 12:31 AM
I put the 3 suffering ones down, out of 18 fish I'm left with one pleco and one red eagle discus. I will be keeping these 2 fish qaurtined for some time and eventually will be putting a hero fish in with them to make sure it's not a virus or a pathogen.

I didnt see the peroxide treatment thanks tho.