New Project

[Second Hand Pat]

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[danotaylor]

Looks fabulously intriguing Pat. Is that a large matten pad across the rear of the tank? Please do tell us the tank size and of your plans for filtration and livestock. Beautiful pieces of wood and very tastefully placed. Looks incredible!

[Second Hand Pat]

Looks fabulously intriguing Pat. Is that a large matten pad across the rear of the tank? Please do tell us the tank size and of your plans for filtration and livestock. Beautiful pieces of wood and very tastefully placed. Looks incredible!

Hi Danny, I am actually using the foam for a background. I know, a bit odd but also hoping it will provide a platform for plants. The tank is a 50 gallon acrylic tank (36x18x~20). It will house a rowdy gang of Dark Knight Rams who desperately need more room. There is only about an inch or so of water. I will be filling it up tomorrow and of course the wood will float. Once the wood sinks I will arrange it in the configuration shown in the first post. For now I will simply move the sponge filter over with the rams. Once the tank and fish has settled I am hoping to slowly plant it so it will be an evolving process.
Pat

[danotaylor]

Awesome Pat, can wait to see how things evolve. Are you planning to implant plants into the foam background? That sounds like a great idea that should work out well. I know you will do a fabulous job of documenting your progress as always, and I am following along for sure!

[Second Hand Pat]

Awesome Pat, can wait to see how things evolve. Are you planning to implant plants into the foam background? That sounds like a great idea that should work out well. I know you will do a fabulous job of documenting your progress as always, and I am following along for sure!

I think so Danny, this is sort of an experiment so open to any ideas, suggestions whatever. I do have a couple Brazilian Pennyworts coming Monday as a start. I think I would also like to add some short swords. I can also add more sand if needed.
Pat

[Mando]

I love a tank with a good center piece! tuned in. Cannot wait to follow you through the end results.

[Second Hand Pat]

I love a tank with a good center piece! tuned in. Cannot wait to follow you through the end results.

Thanks Armando, filled the tank today 3/4 full. Added airstone, heater and the rams a short bit ago. They settled in nicely and water is a little cloudy. Of course the wood is floating at the top. Hope it sinks in a couple days.
Pat

[AquaticNerd]

Following as well! The scape looks good so I can't wait to see it full! :)

[Sturiosoma]

Looks good Pat, and how are you liking your current led you recently bought, did you get the satellite or pro plus

Jeanne

[Second Hand Pat]

Following as well! The scape looks good so I can't wait to see it full! :)

Thanks Jake :D


Looks good Pat, and how are you liking your current led you recently bought, did you get the satellite or pro plus

Jeanne

Hi Jeanne, on this tank I have the Fluval Plant 3.0 LED and so far I like it. I do have both the current satellite or pro plus LED lights and like they both. I have had several of the Current satellite LED for several years and all still working except one which like to flicker the blues on and off which is a bit annoying.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Here's a video from last night. The water is a little cloudy but the fish seem happy.


http://youtu.be/K-FJD0xIMqk

[Second Hand Pat]

The rams are happy and eating and lots of flirting is happening. Look like there might be a couple pairs forming.
Pat

[Kirbs]

Looks great Pat!

[Second Hand Pat]

Looks great Pat!

Thanks Kirby :D
Pat

[danotaylor]

They're cute lil boogers Pat. Looking forward to your Pennywort going in today...has the postman stopped by yet? :D

[Second Hand Pat]

They're cute lil boogers Pat. Looking forward to your Pennywort going in today...has the postman stopped by yet? :D

Thanks Danny, it comes tomorrow :p

Anyone know the bleach to water ratio for a safe dig for plants? and for how long?

Pat

[danotaylor]

I know the ratio is 20:1 but I am not certain how long Pat.
In the Cardiac ICU I work in bleach contact has to be min 3 minutes to kill pathogens when we take equip in & out of patient rooms. I guess that would be a good general rule of thumb. Of course we use 100% bleach wipes...

[Discluv]

I have a pair of dark rams myself from Coralbandit, is that where you sourced yours?
Very nice group you have.
Are they aggressive with one another? They seem to be much more aggressive then my Bolivian Rams and the German Rams Ive had in the past.

Great job capturing them in your video, these fish are hard to capture in photos and even video because of their coloration.

[Second Hand Pat]

I know the ratio is 20:1 but I am not certain how long Pat.
In the Cardiac ICU I work in bleach contact has to be min 3 minutes to kill pathogens when we take equip in & out of patient rooms. I guess that would be a good general rule of thumb. Of course we use 100% bleach wipes...

Thanks Danny, I think I will do a PP treatment on the plant. Sounds like it is a bit gentler then bleach. Still waiting for the plants today lol.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I have a pair of dark rams myself from Coralbandit, is that where you sourced yours?
Very nice group you have.
Are they aggressive with one another? They seem to be much more aggressive then my Bolivian Rams and the German Rams Ive had in the past.

Great job capturing them in your video, these fish are hard to capture in photos and even video because of their coloration.

Hi Discluv, Thank you and I got this group from a friend who is associated with Gold Coast Aquatics. They do not seem any more aggressive then rams I have had in the past.

The first thing I notices was how hard they are to capture will. The LED over the tank can be make brighter and that helps a lot.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

This afternoon there are at least two females and one male with dropped tubes. The vid shows one female who can not seem to decide on where and towards the end of video there is a pair under the sponge and she is busy cleaning the rock. Busy tank lol.


http://youtu.be/wHCzcsVhUA4

[AquaticNerd]

Hi Pat,

That looks great! I love the look of the dark knight rams.

As far as a plant dip goes, I've done several different types. A common dip is using PP - I usually add PP until it is a very dark purple. For bleach, I've done a 19:1 ratio (19 parts water, 1 part bleach, assuming you're using standard 5% bleach solution) and the dip only lasted a few minutes, at max 3 minutes. As you've already mentioned, bleach is a bit tougher on plants. Some of them don't tolerate it at all and will end up dying off. Pennywort might not take kindly to a bleach dip.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat,

That looks great! I love the look of the dark knight rams.

As far as a plant dip goes, I've done several different types. A common dip is using PP - I usually add PP until it is a very dark purple. For bleach, I've done a 19:1 ratio (19 parts water, 1 part bleach, assuming you're using standard 5% bleach solution) and the dip only lasted a few minutes, at max 3 minutes. As you've already mentioned, bleach is a bit tougher on plants. Some of them don't tolerate it at all and will end up dying off. Pennywort might not take kindly to a bleach dip.

Thanks Jake and duly noted. The Pennywort finally came at nine tonight. :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

On a separate note, had two pairs spawn tonight. One spawn looks great but the other pair spawn on wood. I saw a couple eggs on the wood and later after they were done I could not see any eggs. Both pairs are guarding their spawning site. Video later.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Down to the one spawn under the sponge filter. Parents are tending it well.
Pat

[AquaticNerd]

How exciting! I can't wait to see how the fry develop! :)

[pantherlax]

Down to the one spawn under the sponge filter. Parents are tending it well.
Pat

Congrats! love the tank and the project. If you have any spare luck send it my way, I'm 0/3 on hatching rams

[Second Hand Pat]

Congrats! love the tank and the project. If you have any spare luck send it my way, I'm 0/3 on hatching rams

I am 0/0 Pat so you can have any of my spare luck lol.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

How exciting! I can't wait to see how the fry develop! :)

Me too Jake :D and hopefully get to hatch stage on this spawn.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Congrats! love the tank and the project. If you have any spare luck send it my way, I'm 0/3 on hatching rams

I feel your pain, Pat. I bought some very nice Dutch Rams and would never get it on. I finally gave up and put both pairs into a 100 gallon with 8 sub adult Discus. I put one of their 29's to use as a home for a breeding pair of Bosamani Rainbow fish.

Congratulations Pat Husband. I envy you and am also a bit jealous of you. Why can you do it when I can't? I have to be doing something wrong but don't know what.

[RogueDiscus]

I've had several spawns with my rams, but they never get past a couple days free swimming. The parents give up or eat them. I haven't tried removing the parents yet, but if I decide to really try to raise some, that will be next.

[Second Hand Pat]

Congratulations Pat Husband. I envy you and am also a bit jealous of you. Why can you do it when I can't? I have to be doing something wrong but don't know what.

Thanks Liz but only at step one. Lots of steps to go lol so I have not done it yet. I am sure your fish will be ready at some point. :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I've had several spawns with my rams, but they never get past a couple days free swimming. The parents give up or eat them. I haven't tried removing the parents yet, but if I decide to really try to raise some, that will be next.

What are you feeding the fry Steve? I had a conversation with Ryan and normal BBS is too big for the fry. He said to get the San Francisco Strain of BBS from Brine Shrimp Direct as this strain is small enough for the ram fry. Ryan also said if doing a water change that the water has to be the exact parameters of the tank water. Ram fry are very delicate.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I was prepared when both pairs showed signs of spawning. Here videos of both pairs. The camcorder allowed me to get some nice detail.

This pair is tending the eggs.

http://youtu.be/l5pYhkO8YXg

I think this pair ate their eggs. Spawning site was in the middle of the tank.

http://youtu.be/zIcNtX_T21g

[coralbandit]

Most rams will not be comfortable raising fry in large aquariums in my experience ..
I have found in 5 and 10g tanks that they can be great parents as they worry less??
Not to be heartless as my discus [2 separate pairs ] breed almost every or every other week and I have had zero success ,but it does my heart good to hear how hard you all think rams are !
I wish all fish were as easy for me !
I buy regular 90% hatch BBS eggs from brine shrimp direct[not the SF type] and have never had ram fry that did not eat them day 1 free swimming ...Without them I would not be anywhere with rams IMO ?I hatch 3 batches a day and feed them within hours of being hatched ,I never 'save' any ...I just make more new ..3 batches everyday for the last 3-4 years ….

[Second Hand Pat]

Most rams will not be comfortable raising fry in large aquariums in my experience ..
I have found in 5 and 10g tanks that they can be great parents as they worry less??
Not to be heartless as my discus [2 separate pairs ] breed almost every or every other week and I have had zero success ,but it does my heart good to hear how hard you all think rams are !
I wish all fish were as easy for me !
I buy regular 90% hatch BBS eggs from brine shrimp direct[not the SF type] and have never had ram fry that did not eat them day 1 free swimming ...Without them I would not be anywhere with rams IMO ?I hatch 3 batches a day and feed them within hours of being hatched ,I never 'save' any ...I just make more new ..3 batches everyday for the last 3-4 years ….

Hi Tom, I am sure you are correct with the rams but this group needed to be in a larger tank and they decided to spawn. I also figured they would. As to whether it is successful or not who knows. I have successfully raised wild discus fry and apisto fry so not a stranger to this. This morning the eggs were fertile. You could see the fry in the eggs (talk about cool).

125852

Tonight when I arrived home from Thanksgiving dinner with my daughter and family the eggs were gone. The pair were guarding the site so guessing the fry are squirreled away in a pit. I suspect tomorrow I will know more. I will report back in the morning.
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

Great egg pic, Pat!

[coralbandit]

Moving the eggs/wigglers is a good sign ..Usually rams will move good eggs and wigglers to a new clean and safe spot .
I hope you see a cloud of fry soon !

[Second Hand Pat]

Moving the eggs/wigglers is a good sign ..Usually rams will move good eggs and wigglers to a new clean and safe spot .
I hope you see a cloud of fry soon !

Thanks Tom, so I have both the vineger eels and smaller BBS on order but doubt any of this arrives in time. I am assuming if there are fry, they would use up their egg sack by the third day after hatching. I have a wild idea to take some of the cubed FD blackworms and grind the cube into dust like I do for discus fry but grind it as fine as possible. I would soak a small portion of that in some warm water to totally hydrate it. I would then suck a small portion into a 10ml syringe, attach a bit of flexible airhose to the tip of the syringe with a length of rigid airhose to the other end of the flexible airhose. This little rig allows me to do some very precise targeted feeding while trying to not crowd the parents.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

do you have plants in any of your tanks? I accidentally raised some Boesemani fry by just taking a big wad of java moss out of the pair's tank and putting it in another tank with no air and no heater. One day I glanced at that tank and noticed fish! They survived and grew eating nothing but the microorganisms on the java moss. It might at least tide you over until your stuff arrives.

[Second Hand Pat]

do you have plants in any of your tanks? I accidentally raised some Boesemani fry by just taking a big wad of java moss out of the pair's tank and putting it in another tank with no air and no heater. One day I glanced at that tank and noticed fish! They survived and grew eating nothing but the microorganisms on the java moss. It might at least tide you over until your stuff arrives.

Interesting idea Liz. I do have some plants in my guppy bowl (yet, have a few guppies lol) which are free floating (Java Fern).
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I'd weigh part of the java fern down close to the eggs so that when the babies hatch, it's right there for them.

[coralbandit]

There is definitely infusoria in mosses .I like subbwassertang as it doesn't clog as much ..Driftwood with algae is great also ..
Any body here use Golden pearls ? They are the food I train rams from live to prepared with ..
I start with 100 micron near end of week 1 free swimming .
I sprinkle it on surface and then syringe in BBS and they mix .
Golden pearls are known as one of if not the most buoyant of prepared foods so the time it dwells in the water column "tricks" the fish ..It can mimic live food especially when mixed in ..
Kensfish carries Golden pearls and feed them to all my fish ..They are sized from 50 micron [too small IMO] all they way upto 800 -1000 micron ..
I feed the 800 to my disc and adult rams .
I think the dust of black worms may work .
I really think when you can hatch BBS they will work .Your rams look good enough size to lay proper sized eggs ..
On the Vinnegar eels I know a breeder in UK who starts dosing small amounts of vinegar eels onto the driftwood when the eggs turn to wigglers..
He theorizes that one of the main reasons ram eat their fry is they fear a lack of suitable food and by showing the parents their is ample food they do better ..
Sounds sort of silly ,but mind you I don't use VE I do feed my breeders live BBS[I hatch 3 batches everyday] so I make sure the parents know their is food on purpose now and have more pairs raising fry then ever before !
Maybe more pairs now then I have ever had in all my previous years added up before this little addendum to my breeding efforts ..
I hope you get to see fry swim with their parents ..It is the best part of fish keeping and breeding for me .

[Second Hand Pat]

There is definitely infusoria in mosses .I like subbwassertang as it doesn't clog as much ..Driftwood with algae is great also ..
Any body here use Golden pearls ? They are the food I train rams from live to prepared with ..
I start with 100 micron near end of week 1 free swimming .
I sprinkle it on surface and then syringe in BBS and they mix .
Golden pearls are known as one of if not the most buoyant of prepared foods so the time it dwells in the water column "tricks" the fish ..It can mimic live food especially when mixed in ..
Kensfish carries Golden pearls and feed them to all my fish ..They are sized from 50 micron [too small IMO] all they way upto 800 -1000 micron ..
I feed the 800 to my disc and adult rams .
I think the dust of black worms may work .
I really think when you can hatch BBS they will work .Your rams look good enough size to lay proper sized eggs ..
On the Vinnegar eels I know a breeder in UK who starts dosing small amounts of vinegar eels onto the driftwood when the eggs turn to wigglers..
He theorizes that one of the main reasons ram eat their fry is they fear a lack of suitable food and by showing the parents their is ample food they do better ..
Sounds sort of silly ,but mind you I don't use VE I do feed my breeders live BBS[I hatch 3 batches everyday] so I make sure the parents know their is food on purpose now and have more pairs raising fry then ever before !
Maybe more pairs now then I have ever had in all my previous years added up before this little addendum to my breeding efforts ..
I hope you get to see fry swim with their parents ..It is the best part of fish keeping and breeding for me .

Hi Tom, some nice hints here and I can definitely start up the hatchery and hatch some BBS for the adult rams. I feed the rams BBS which I was hatching BBS for the Cuipeua F1s (the rams were still small). Live BBS should be a excellent conditioning food for the adult rams. When you mix the golden pearls with the live BBS for the fry Tom what size are you using?

So definitely do not have fry. Another couple has formed and taken over the breeding site. I like this new couple better as the hard rays are much better on this new male. Funny how the emphasis has switched from planted to breeding lol. Learning a lot, the fish are good teachers lol.
Pat

[coralbandit]

I start my fry at 100 micron .
Kens fish food is really affordable so I get every size of Golden pearls and Grow meal .Over 4 sizes of each ..
The affordability of Kens food is how my fish manage to eat Als Blackworms daily also ! :p
I think between the three foods I really have a winning combo ..

You should find the pair you like best get them a 10g tank and place it right next to others so they can see each other ..
That will be your best bet and most fun of all the learning ..
I keep my pairs side by side in shotgun tanks with a white divider across the bottom half of tank for privacy ..
I make them eat face to face and the behavior is outrageous ! They get mad when you feed the neighbor first ..Real mad !
The spirit of competition kept in check works great for the flashy little fish ..

[Tshethar]

Another great thread! Great photos and videography as usual, Pat, plus breeding (no surprise), and lots of good tips. Looking forward to seeing how things develop from here, and hope you have fun. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

I start my fry at 100 micron .
Kens fish food is really affordable so I get every size of Golden pearls and Grow meal .Over 4 sizes of each ..
The affordability of Kens food is how my fish manage to eat Als Blackworms daily also ! :p
I think between the three foods I really have a winning combo ..

You should find the pair you like best get them a 10g tank and place it right next to others so they can see each other ..
That will be your best bet and most fun of all the learning ..
I keep my pairs side by side in shotgun tanks with a white divider across the bottom half of tank for privacy ..
I make them eat face to face and the behavior is outrageous ! They get mad when you feed the neighbor first ..Real mad !
The spirit of competition kept in check works great for the flashy little fish ..

Thanks Tom and glad to hear Kens website is back up. I may separate a pair at some point and play with raising a spawn. For now I am happy with letting the fish play in the 50. If a pair manage to get some fry with a little size I will separate the fry if I can and raise separately. I am hoping a friend may be interested in some fry in the near future. :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Another great thread! Great photos and videography as usual, Pat, plus breeding (no surprise), and lots of good tips. Looking forward to seeing how things develop from here, and hope you have fun. :)

Thanks Bill and nice to see you making that next step with your discus keeping. :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So my Pennywort arrived in good condition but it was cool to the touch but mostly alive. I let the bag it came in come to room temp then removed the leaves which look questionable and placed the plant in a vase thinking it would be ok....NOT. It mostly melted :( and I added the still living stems to the rams tank hoping a piece will grow.

Considering I am not plant literate should I be added some sort of ferts to the water? Elliot (pastry) sent me some java fern etc that lives in my guppy bowls and that seems fine. (Thank you Elliot).

On another note I cooked up (hatched) some BBS and have been feeding that to the rams the last four days or so. Did a 50% water change last night and had one pair spawn and others showing a bit of their breeding tubes. Everyone went a little nuts after the water change as I rearranged the tank a bit.


http://youtu.be/l6PgCAv6ftE

Beginning to think Tom is correct about separating a pair if I want a spawn to be successful.
Pat

[coralbandit]

They look good Pat !
They are tight fish ...I am unclear how breeding for color brings out hostility but in many cases I find the black ,dark or even the golds from blacks to be the meanest rams I have ever had !
On the separating note , pick the right two ,they can be homicidal in pairs .
Some males are just mean ??
I like the tank set up .

[Second Hand Pat]

They look good Pat !
They are tight fish ...I am unclear how breeding for color brings out hostility but in many cases I find the black ,dark or even the golds from blacks to be the meanest rams I have ever had !
On the separating note , pick the right two ,they can be homicidal in pairs .
Some males are just mean ??
I like the tank set up .

Thanks Tom, the tank is still evolving since the wood is still floating a bit. I have been watching the males and they definitely have different temperaments. One of the males even kicks the females out of his corner. I should be able to select two which will get along. I just need a cycled sponge for the 10.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So I took Tom's suggestion and order a mat of subbwassertang moss from Aquatic Art. It came in a 3.6x3.6 stainless steel mat which I can bend but not cut.

125918

So I bent it in a U and placed it on the wood. All the rams had to check it out. I am currently not dosing any ferts, should I be. My plant knowledge is nill lol.
Pat

[coralbandit]

It should grow easy ..No need for anything for me ? I use LED lights and even let it float around ..It floats ,it sinks all in the light cycle .
Eventually it clings somewhere. I love sub !Better then any moss for fry as it tangles less easy ..
That looks like a pair in pic ..
The others just won't give them any peace !
Tight fish ..
I use terra cotta pot trays for eggs ..Put near the sub and you should see eggs ? They may just happily choose the wood ..

[Discluv]

Im learning alot myself from this thread-- thanks for documenting here Pat. And thanks to coralbandit for all the experienced commentary.
I have a bunch of the subbwassertang in shrimp tanks, ill move it over to the ram tank.

I have a moss tree also growing in there- so lots of moss. I may get a few of the small clay pots as well.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm learning a lot here, too. I'd like to try again with my Rams but I don't want to be disappointed a second time.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Tom, it is a pair and they had a spawn in the wood directly behind the moss. When the female was lying eggs another female was rushing in and eating the eggs. Talk about a war zone but the male seems more committed to protecting the spawn site. I think the spawn is gone now but almost lasted 48 hours.

What other plants do you use Tom?
Pat

[coralbandit]

I like Bolbitus ,javafern and have I think wisteria floating like duck weed ..Did I say duck weed ..
Rhizome plants seem best and suited to slow growth or death in my tanks ..

[Second Hand Pat]

Alright Tom, 10 gallon is setup and warming up. BB with heater and sponge filter with a wee bit of foam from another tank for bio. Clay pot with about a five inch opening. Could be a bit big but all I have ATM. Sounds like it's time to cook some BBS. Several females seem ready to go in the 50. I will add a couple small plants if that helps. Any other suggestions?
Pat

[coralbandit]

Alright Tom, 10 gallon is setup and warming up. BB with heater and sponge filter with a wee bit of foam from another tank for bio. Clay pot with about a five inch opening. Could be a bit big but all I have ATM. Sounds like it's time to cook some BBS. Several females seem ready to go in the 50. I will add a couple small plants if that helps. Any other suggestions?
Pat

Sounds like you are ready now just to get the fish to cooperate a little ..
Look for two that even tolerate each other and stay to same area while others are jousting ..
I mentioned in Liz thread about water ..I take my rams to 100TDS for breeding ..
I don't test anything else knowing my taps parameters as a baseline and seeing how little RO changes them .
My tap is 7.6 pH / 2-3 KH / 9 GH with a TDS of 350+
I use RO [no DI] that comes out 17TDS and add it back to my tap to get 100..
80-82+ and that is it ..
Feed the parents BBS especially after the eggs are laid so they know there will be food for their babies .
Some actually theorize that rams eating fry is just them knowing they would not survive where they are due to lack of proper food ?
I have seen several breeders add the BBS or a small amount of vinegar eels near the eggs and turn fry eaters into good parents !
Not my trick something I was shown and make sure to do .
I feed BBS 2-3 times a day to all my fish ..Just habit ..
Good luck Pat I love seeing others raise fry .

[LizStreithorst]

Pat, what's your TDS? After Tom mentioned it in my thread, and I believe once before, I added humic acid to my tank. It works as well as Roobios tea for allowing Angel eggs to hatch. I don't know for sure if it's even needed.

[coralbandit]

Pat, what's your TDS? After Tom mentioned it in my thread, and I believe once before, I added humic acid to my tank. It works as well as Roobios tea for allowing Angel eggs to hatch. I don't know for sure if it's even needed.

I have use humic acid myself with the rams and apistos.Not only to stain and soften the water in their tank but in artificial hatching instead of MB or H202.
It was not something I completely figured out dosing for but it was easier and worked more often in the tank .Still got almost got a quart of 'Black Gold' left !
A little goes a long way with that stuff...

[Second Hand Pat]

Sounds like you are ready now just to get the fish to cooperate a little ..
Look for two that even tolerate each other and stay to same area while others are jousting ..
I mentioned in Liz thread about water ..I take my rams to 100TDS for breeding ..
I don't test anything else knowing my taps parameters as a baseline and seeing how little RO changes them .
My tap is 7.6 pH / 2-3 KH / 9 GH with a TDS of 350+
I use RO [no DI] that comes out 17TDS and add it back to my tap to get 100..
80-82+ and that is it ..
Feed the parents BBS especially after the eggs are laid so they know there will be food for their babies .
Some actually theorize that rams eating fry is just them knowing they would not survive where they are due to lack of proper food ?
I have seen several breeders add the BBS or a small amount of vinegar eels near the eggs and turn fry eaters into good parents !
Not my trick something I was shown and make sure to do .
I feed BBS 2-3 times a day to all my fish ..Just habit ..
Good luck Pat I love seeing others raise fry .

Thanks Tom, there is one male I am eyeballing (nice color and fins) and he seems to be paired with a female. I will catch the male first then maybe add the female(s) (I only have four) if needed to id the mate. Water wise I am using tap water for now. I am on a well and after aging my ph is 8.2, KH/GH is the same at about 14/15 and TDS varies between (180 to 220 varies seasonally). I can add a bit of RO to the mix if I need to. :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, what's your TDS? After Tom mentioned it in my thread, and I believe once before, I added humic acid to my tank. It works as well as Roobios tea for allowing Angel eggs to hatch. I don't know for sure if it's even needed.

Hi Liz, my well water has a TDS of 220 this time of year (dry season). I will start with using my tap water and move to an RO/tap mix if needed. I had the one set of eggs in the 50 and after 24 hours I could see fry in the eggs so comfortable in giving my tap a try.
Pat

[coralbandit]

I have seen my rams breed successfully in my growouts with 350 TDS ,I just don't encourage it .
In the beginning [7 years ago] the 100TDS w3as completely necessary now ??
I would run with your water Pat and see how it goes .

[Second Hand Pat]

I have seen my rams breed successfully in my growouts with 350 TDS ,I just don't encourage it.
In the beginning [7 years ago] the 100TDS w3as completely necessary now ??
I would run with your water Pat and see how it goes .

Will do Tom :D and no worries. I am well versed in using RO water. I have used it with wild discus in the past.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

That's good to know. Thanks Tom and Pat.

[Second Hand Pat]

So moved the intended pair to the 10 yesterday. They mostly hide under the heater yesterday and this morning they were out and about with subdued lighting. I placed a white paper towel under the led to dim the light.


http://youtu.be/66Fj1fWt3y8

You can see they are both showing tubes. I might do a wee WC this afternoon.
Pat

[coralbandit]

NICE ! I would say you'll have eggs tonight !
After they spawn you might want to add more cover like a piece of wood and live plants..
Nothing special but they don't always work together nice nice after the eggs have been laid .
I love the color the females belly gets !

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE ! I would say you'll have eggs tonight !
After they spawn you might want to add more cover like a piece of wood and live plants..
Nothing special but they don't always work together nice nice after the eggs have been laid .
I love the color the females belly gets !

Hi Tom, no eggs yesterday. The pair doesn't quite seem settled yet. Today I am going to do a small water change with a wee bit of ro and perhaps add some rooibos tea. The tea may help to settle them and give them a sense of security. I am also taping white paper to the side of the tank next to the door where I walk into and out of my little fishroom for some added security.

Of course I had a pair spawn last night in the 50 where all the rams are (no other fish in that tank). As I was getting my coffee this morning the rams appeared to be having an egg breakfast. No one seemed to be defending the site. Silly fish. lol
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So the pair are preparing to spawn tonight. I have been dripping in a tap/ro mix all day and just gave them some live BBS and things are popping (or will be soon). TDS started at 230 (dry season) and it was down to about 160 and just checked it and it is back up to 190. Salt in the live BBS kicked to TDS up...oops.

I pan over and you can see where I am dripping in the tap/ro mix. The airstone in the pitcher gives a little resistance on the airline slowing the drip a bit.


http://youtu.be/r4rXTROKdf4

[Second Hand Pat]

and we have eggs...


http://youtu.be/YsE8fggNUT0

[coralbandit]

NICE !

Keep feeding the BBS so the parents know there is food for their fry when they hatch .
This is one trick taught to me that could help explain my parents raising fry more often now .
My buddy theorized that the parents ate fry since there was no food for them where they were ?
He would add vinegar eels the day eggs were laid near the site and that the changed the game for him !

Do you rinse the BBS? I have heard others say the BBS raised their TDS.. They never really touched mine much more then the poop they create ?
In a tank 5g BBS should not touch TDS 2 points IMO??

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE !

Keep feeding the BBS so the parents know there is food for their fry when they hatch .
This is one trick taught to me that could help explain my parents raising fry more often now .
My buddy theorized that the parents ate fry since there was no food for them where they were ?
He would add vinegar eels the day eggs were laid near the site and that the changed the game for him !

Do you rinse the BBS? I have heard others say the BBS raised their TDS.. They never really touched mine much more then the poop they create ?
In a tank 5g BBS should not touch TDS 2 points IMO??

I try to rinse the BBS Tom. I filter the water thru a coffee strainer but perhaps hatching too many eggs as the strainer is not draining well. I have a plan so will get back in that. I do not want the salt in the water either.
Pat

[Sturiosoma]

and we have eggs...


http://youtu.be/YsE8fggNUT0

I can honestly say I have never had a ram spawn in a cave, knowing they are substrate spawners I never gave them one that's pretty cool I bet they feel secure in there, congrats on the spawn and good luck with them

Jeanne

[Second Hand Pat]

I can honestly say I have never had a ram spawn in a cave, knowing they are substrate spawners I never gave them one that's pretty cool I bet they feel secure in there, congrats on the spawn and good luck with them

Jeanne

Thank you Jeanne, I appreciate that :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So there are a couple dozen eggs left at the spawning site. Not sure if the other eggs hatched and the parents moved them or the parents ate the eggs. Also not sure when the eggs are suppose to hatch. Tom?
Pat

[coralbandit]

They do hatch quicker in warm water ..If eggs left look good I will guess they are moving them to a clean site ? 2-3 days is normal for my eggs ..
I have not seen rams eat bad eggs only ever ?? They seem to lose control and eat all or none IME..
Hoping you got wigglers somewhere in there ..Wait for the cloud ?

[Second Hand Pat]

They do hatch quicker in warm water ..If eggs left look good I will guess they are moving them to a clean site ? 2-3 days is normal for my eggs ..
I have not seen rams eat bad eggs only ever ?? They seem to lose control and eat all or none IME..
Hoping you got wigglers somewhere in there ..Wait for the cloud ?

Thanks Tom, eggs still looked good so just guessing they are hatching. I saw in your other thread hatch time is 24-48 hours so these guys are at the 36 or so hour mark. Would you suggest I do a water change or should I give it some time?
Pat

[coralbandit]

You can change water if it is time or what you normally do .
The fry/wigglers really should be ok with it .
Hoping you see free swimmers in a day or so next !

[Second Hand Pat]

You can change water if it is time or what you normally do .
The fry/wigglers really should be ok with it .
Hoping you see free swimmers in a day or so next !

That would be exciting Tom. I will do a gentle water change so I don't blow fry all over the place (if there are fry :)).
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I think the parents ate the fry. All eggs hatched and no sign of fry. :( Next time maybe.
Pat

[coralbandit]

They are sneaky and move them to a clean spot often ..
Watch to see if they are guarding a corner or special nook ..
They will spawn again they seemed to get along well.

[Second Hand Pat]

They are sneaky and move them to a clean spot often ..
Watch to see if they are guarding a corner or special nook ..
They will spawn again they seemed to get along well.

Pretty sure they are gone Tom. I used a small flashlight to look into the cave and pot. They do get along well so no worries. :)
Pat

[coralbandit]

So I don't doubt they are gone ,but for a timing stand point a new pair of rams spawned on 12/21 and hid the eggs away..I could not find them in a BB tank till the other day .
Only a few but today a tiny cloud ,maybe fog was buzzing around the parents..
I still hope your pair surprises you !

[LizStreithorst]

I hope you're right, Tom.

[Darren's Discus]

Looks great.

[Second Hand Pat]

So I don't doubt they are gone ,but for a timing stand point a new pair of rams spawned on 12/21 and hid the eggs away..I could not find them in a BB tank till the other day .
Only a few but today a tiny cloud ,maybe fog was buzzing around the parents..
I still hope your pair surprises you !

Hi Tom, I am sure they will. I pulled the pot and the cave the other day and gave them a good rinse and wiped the inside of the tank. I have allowed the water to get a bit dirty and will do a large water change today and drop the tds again. The pair remains very good with each other.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Looks great.

Thanks Darren :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

A big water change yesterday and a bit of BBS and we have the second set of eggs. This batch looks a wee larger then the last. Fingers crossed.
Pat

[Mando]

What a success, Pat! sounds fantastic. Can't wait for some pics :)

[LizStreithorst]

Great Pat! Tell them I'm rooting for them.

[coralbandit]

The odds increase every time we get another chance ..
I surly did not start out a ram breeder !
Good luck Pat .

[Second Hand Pat]

What a success, Pat! sounds fantastic. Can't wait for some pics :)

How about a video Armando :D


Great Pat! Tell them I'm rooting for them.

I will pass that on Liz lol. You seeing any signs of fry with your pair?


The odds increase every time we get another chance ..
I surly did not start out a ram breeder !
Good luck Pat .

Thanks Tom and agree. It is a learning process for both the parents and the fish keeper.

So currently I am dripping in some rooibos favored RO water. It is not so much to assist the eggs hatching but to give the parents a sense of security. I will be adding live BBS early in the evening when the eggs should be hatching.


http://youtu.be/JgyxpzXDIe0


Pat

[LizStreithorst]

My pair ate them, Pat. But they'll try again.

[Second Hand Pat]

My pair ate them, Pat. But they'll try again.

Sorry to hear that Liz and they will. Soon both of us will have baby rams :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

This second batch of eggs is going a bit differently. First, there are still eggs but the clutch is not as big as last night. Could be the some of eggs are hatching? The tank is heavily stained with rooibos tea. Mom spends most of her time above the eggs. Taking this is a good sign.
Pat

[coralbandit]

If the tank is very warm they may have hatched . 24 hours is quick but not unheard of .
Look for the new hiding spot ..

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Tom, it’s actually 36 hours this morning.
Pat

[coralbandit]

It would make sense the male would move the good to new spot [likely a corner or other pot] and the female continue on with fanning .
Watch what he is doing ..36 hours they certainly could be hatching..

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tom, I went down after reading your post and the eggs were gone/hatched. What is the parents behavior after the fry hatch?
Pat

[coralbandit]

They take the wigglers and hide them for a day or so .
Then if they survive the fry will free swim and the parents will guard them .
My experience is wigglers take as long to become free swimmers as it took the eggs to hatch .
So 36 -48 hours free swimmers should be present if they are in there .
You should note one of the parents guarding some spot .maybe not 100% but noticeably IMO.

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, you are an encyclopedia.

[Second Hand Pat]

They take the wigglers and hide them for a day or so .
Then if they survive the fry will free swim and the parents will guard them .
My experience is wigglers take as long to become free swimmers as it took the eggs to hatch .
So 36 -48 hours free swimmers should be present if they are in there .
You should note one of the parents guarding some spot .maybe not 100% but noticeably IMO.

I agree with Liz Tom. You are most handy and thank you for being here for us ram newbies. Based on my observation of the pair it is my guess there is no fry but time will tell :)
Pat

[coralbandit]

Thanks Pat and Liz for the kind words .. I don't know much about 'encyclopedia' but I like pictures?
Fish are just like children and pets ,they'll show you up first chance they can !
I don't need to tell any you about how important patience is but the rams like discus can take you to the edge ..
My new pair I said took forever to hatch and free swim ate their small cloud ..
It happens ? I will give them another chance and think I made the right choice to take the eggs first time ..
If you think fish are smart then you both should just take the eggs next time before the fish have their way ..
Not necessarily to hatch but to teach the parents they want to preserve the eggs and fry .. You could play the incidental dither fish or as I am known 'bandit' !
I have actually wondered if I have any effect on my fish …
It's a marathon , not the 50 yard dash ….
I intend on prevailing ...:whip:

[Second Hand Pat]

Tom, I have an interesting idea and would welcome your thoughts. Taking the eggs helps to "teach the parents they want to preserve the eggs and fry"? What about adding a single male to the tank (after the eggs are laid) so the pair have to define the eggs? Perhaps help the pair bond with their eggs? The male could be removed prior to hatch. No worries on the patience game. I think both Liz and I was well versed with that. lol
Pat

[coralbandit]

I like that as long as you can monitor . Add more live plants or cover if you do for all to have a respite .
The spirit of competition does wonders for developing a team ..
I keep forgetting all my breeding tanks are set up shotgun next to each other .Bottom half has separator sheet for privacy but top half is where the competition takes place ..
They see each other through out the day and I feed them in facing corners just to light them up !
Maybe even a mirror Pat ?

[LizStreithorst]

Good ideas to ponder.

[Sturiosoma]

Pat without reading through the whole post, do you have dither fish in your tank, sometimes that's all that's required to get the rams to raise their spawn, the dither give them a reason to protect their fry

Jeanne

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat without reading through the whole post, do you have dither fish in your tank, sometimes that's all that's required to get the rams to raise their spawn, the dither give them a reason to protect their fry

Jeanne

I see where you are going with this Jeanne. I do have one little lonely cardinal tetra I could add. I also like Tom's mirror idea. I am going to give them another go on their own (generally the third time is the charm for me) before doing something different.

I have not totally ruled out that they do not have fry but the male did get annoyed with the WC hose twice in the same spot last night.
Pat

[coralbandit]

I water change /vacuum into a clean white bucket so I can see the fry when I suck them up .
Generally they look like detritus in the corner till spinning in the bucket .
The males behavior says fry to me ?
A flashlight is really the breeders secret weapon !

[Second Hand Pat]

I water change /vacuum into a clean white bucket so I can see the fry when I suck them up .
Generally they look like detritus in the corner till spinning in the bucket .
The males behavior says fry to me ?
A flashlight is really the breeders secret weapon !

I definitely use a flashlight Tom. The smaller cave is empty but the larger pot appears to have a grey mass on the bottom but I see no movement so unsure. The male got annoyed with me near the smaller cave however.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I suck at plants. Do you guys add anything to the water for the plants?
Pat

[coralbandit]

My plants are sacrifices for the fish ..
I would never fert them in a breeding tank ..
???

[Second Hand Pat]

My plants are sacrifices for the fish ..
I would never fert them in a breeding tank ..
???

I would not do that in a breeding tank Tom.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I haven't put in any ferts for months and NEVER in a breeding tank. My plants grow like crazy, but I only grow the easy ones.

[Second Hand Pat]

I haven't put in any ferts for months and NEVER in a breeding tank. My plants grow like crazy, but I only grow the easy ones.

I trying to grow the easy ones :(
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So an interesting development. A pair of rams spawned in the 50 last night and this is the first time I have had a pair make a full heart-ed attempt to guard the eggs. Still have eggs this morning. Crossing fingers.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

That's a great sign!

[Second Hand Pat]

That's a great sign!

And the spawn lasted until mid-morning. lol

On a high note the pair in the breeding tank spawned Tuesday night and this morning the eggs were darker looking. By lunch the eggs were gone but noted the pair were taking turns staying in one area. I did a small water change on the opposite side of the tank and went to place the IAL (added for additional cover as Tom suggested) back in the original position and the male bit me. I do believe we have ram fry. :)
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Ial?

[Second Hand Pat]

Indian Almond Leaves.

[LizStreithorst]

Oh. I'll substitute oak leaves. I put them in a lot of my tanks.

[coralbandit]

NICE with the IAL ! I use oak and maple also just for cover ..
One of my buddies just found for himself that the dark rams were less aggressive and more calm after he added Alder cones ?
I just tossed some into one of my mixed race tanks hoping to reduce the tension and see if this pair gets past eating their fry !
They have wigglers in the corner now just like last time ..Third try for these two ..

[Second Hand Pat]

Remember the line from one of the Star Trek movies "there be whales here"...well I can say "there be ram fry here". I see them collected in a corner of the tank. Not sure how many, I can see about a dozen but not sure how many are under the leave and I am not looking :D but happy with the success so far. :D


NICE with the IAL ! I use oak and maple also just for cover ..
One of my buddies just found for himself that the dark rams were less aggressive and more calm after he added Alder cones ?
I just tossed some into one of my mixed race tanks hoping to reduce the tension and see if this pair gets past eating their fry !
They have wigglers in the corner now just like last time ..Third try for these two ..

I will be harvesting some oaks this winter. I have plenty of live oaks on the property.

Question for you Tom, I will be cooking up some of the tiny BBS intended for the fry tomorrow. How do you filter yours?
Pat

[coralbandit]

NICE on the fry !
I hatch my BBS in a 2l bottle .I use rigid air line like the tube in old UG filters to keep the air at bottom of bottle .No holes or leaking connections .
I remove air and let shrimp settle. I use another rigid line with silicone airline to syphon them into a sieve I got from Brine Shrimp Direct . They are like $5 and that is where I get my eggs anyways .They work great .
To keep them flowing efficiently I rinse them after every use and keep them submerged in clean tap water[large dip and pour ].
I suppose you could use a net or coffee filter also. I am a stickler about using all BBS when you harvest and hatch 3 batches a day to feed properly 3 times a day .
The longer you keep hatched BBS the bigger they grow and less nutritional they are as they have used their egg sac that was meant for the fry ..
I rinse them in the sieve with tap water and then pour then into a small bowl with tap water and used a meat injector to feed ..
https://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/sieve-artemia-hatching
https://www.amazon.com/Injector-Syringe-Marinade-Needles-Rings/dp/B07W99K2TZ/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=meat+injector&qid=1578666377&sr=8-9
I found my meat injector at grocery store.Cut off tip[2 holes] and squeezed with pliers and it is the best thing ever !
Sounds like they should be swimming in a day or so , so get hatching !
Good luck !

[Second Hand Pat]

I do something similar Tom with regular BBS. I also harvest the BBS and then keep it cold so the egg yolk is not used up. The BBS for the fry is smaller so hoping I can filter them in the coffee filter I currently use.

The little things under mom is the fry.


http://youtu.be/xwfTrfEGZbY

[coralbandit]

NICE ! They are scattered so that means [IMO] they are close to swimming and feeding tomorrow at some point should be perfect !

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE ! They are scattered so that means [IMO] they are close to swimming and feeding tomorrow at some point should be perfect !

I think I am flunking ram fry school Tom. Was hoping to see them go free swimming but they didn't. Seems to be less fry then before. I might be feeding to much and not changing enough water.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Pat, we both know that with Discus one of the most dangerous time after when the fry first wiggle is when they first start to free swim. I wouldn't expect rams to be any different. Heck, you're way ahead of where I am with my rams

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, we both know that with Discus one of the most dangerous time after when the fry first wiggle is when they first start to free swim. I wouldn't expect rams to be any different. Heck, you're way ahead of where I am with my rams

Very true Liz and every spawn is a learning experience. I am crossing all my body parts for your success Liz :)
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Just wait...I bet that Steve beats both of us.

[Second Hand Pat]

Just wait...I bet that Steve beats both of us.

That's ok. Would like us all to be successful :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So pretty sure the fry all passed. The pair quit acting broody so I did a huge water change and wiped the tank down. Then I feed the pair a small amount of live blackworms. In a day or so I will be adding some spare java fern with algae growing on. Liz mentioned the micro-flora and that might be in some of the java fern etc.
Pat

[coralbandit]

You guys are going to get there as long as you keep trying IMO .
You guys weren't discus masters right away were you ?
My discus hard time me in-between begging for food and laughing at me while driving their fry around !
Maybe they keep some this time ?? I know I could always ask for help and I am sure you would all have great advice . But even with the best advice I have given you it comes down to same thing for both us .
Patience and practice ...My discus will get if I don't loose it with them and suspect ,well actually believe your rams will work for you .
They are testing you ..
I know my fish test me ...:p
Steve has un fair advantage IMO ..His fish lines are more established IMO ..
The blacks are tough tough IMO and I am not familiar with Tristans rams or how long he has been breeding the line ..
I think some of the stability of the fish comes from its lineage ..

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks for chiming in Tom. I am hoping that more attention to water quality and careful feeding will help with maintaining the fry. You indicate that the dark rams are tough. Do you mean that the fry are more delicate then more established strains of rams? I was really impressed with the attention the parents were giving to the fry so I know that parents are ready. I just need to maintain my side of the partnership.
Pat

[coralbandit]

They are tough as in a weak strain and for some unknow reason aggression more so then the other color varieties .
I told to the dark rams is like the first double black angels and the fry and even adult fish will grow slower and be weaker . Many said the EBR was very weak when first created ?
They are way more trouble for me and the most aggressive rams I have ever seen .Anything from black for me [ gold ,black ,and darks ] have been extremely aggressive on a hit and miss pattern ..You just can't tell..
They are either the best parents going just about or homicidal maniacs .The gold male I recently sent Discusluv just killed its mate while still tending the eggs ! I got no explanation for these fish .Before the blacks came in my fish room ram murder was maybe once a year ...

[Second Hand Pat]

They are tough as in a weak strain and for some unknow reason aggression more so then the other color varieties .
I told to the dark rams is like the first double black angels and the fry and even adult fish will grow slower and be weaker . Many said the EBR was very weak when first created ?
They are way more trouble for me and the most aggressive rams I have ever seen .Anything from black for me [ gold ,black ,and darks ] have been extremely aggressive on a hit and miss pattern ..You just can't tell..
They are either the best parents going just about or homicidal maniacs .The gold male I recently sent Discusluv just killed its mate while still tending the eggs ! I got no explanation for these fish .Before the blacks came in my fish room ram murder was maybe once a year ...

Thanks Tom for confirming my suspicions.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

We have fry again. They hatched today midday or so. Appears to be about 30/40 fry. The parents are doing very well with the fry and each other. They are way more protective and take turns guarding the fry. I already see a few of fry do a little swimming. It is not very coordinated but I feel good about this spawn. The fry seem stronger, the parents have been conditioned on live blackworms and BBS. The BBS is cooking for the fry and the water is clean. Lets see what tomorrow brings.
Pat

[Discluv]

We have fry again. They hatched today midday or so. Appears to be about 30/40 fry. The parents are doing very well with the fry and each other. They are way more protective and take turns guarding the fry. I already see a few of fry do a little swimming. It is not very coordinated but I feel good about this spawn. The fry seem stronger, the parents have been conditioned on live blackworms and BBS. The BBS is cooking for the fry and the water is clean. Lets see what tomorrow brings.
Pat
Yes! Congratulations!!

[danotaylor]

Cool, giddyup lil blokes! :cowboy:

[coralbandit]

NICE !
Hopefully you see the cloud swimming around today ..

[LizStreithorst]

hoping for you, Pat.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes! Congratulations!!

Thank you Discluv :)


Cool, giddyup lil blokes! :cowboy:

Thanks Danny, love how you word your posts :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE !
Hopefully you see the cloud swimming around today ..

Thank Tom, question for you. Will the parents gather the fry into one area? I thought the parents might be eating the fry but suspect they were rounding them up. They were quite busy this morning looking under stuff but now they are quiet.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

hoping for you, Pat.

Thank you Liz, same for you :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I turned off the air pump so the water was quiet.


http://youtu.be/O2KyIBOb5m0

[coralbandit]

NICE !
Wigglers still with their yolk sac clearly visible and pretty full still.
I see at least 24 hour before the swarm ..You have pleased the fish Gods ,now we'll see how the fish like you !
They look good for dust specs huh ?

[LizStreithorst]

By George, she's got it! I'm pumped!

[Discluv]

I turned off the air pump so the water was quiet.


http://youtu.be/O2KyIBOb5m0

That is an excellent shot of the yolk sac! It clearly shows how it is constructed.

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE !
Wigglers still with their yolk sac clearly visible and pretty full still.
I see at least 24 hour before the swarm ..You have pleased the fish Gods ,now we'll see how the fish like you !
They look good for dust specs huh ?

Indeed they do Tom. If you watch the video it appears many of the fry are attached to something when they swim. I did add a little bit of the tiny BBS they need from the last batch I made and I had frozen some. Do you think that they are eating the BBS?

I broke out the macro len and you can see the little dark dot with many of the fry.

126598

[Second Hand Pat]

By George, she's got it! I'm pumped!

Me too Liz :D
Pat

[coralbandit]

Indeed they do Tom. If you watch the video it appears many of the fry are attached to something when they swim. I did add a little bit of the tiny BBS they need from the last batch I made and I had frozen some. Do you think that they are eating the BBS?

I broke out the macro len and you can see the little dark dot with many of the fry.

126598

No they are not eating ..They are not in control at all of themselves ..They are on auto pilot wiggler phase ..They need to suck up that yolk sac and then they will swim..
I think they could swim tomorrow ..You can feed them tomorrow evening if they are swimming during the day ..
Fry are so much fun !

[Second Hand Pat]

No they are not eating ..They are not in control at all of themselves ..They are on auto pilot wiggler phase ..They need to suck up that yolk sac and then they will swim..
I think they could swim tomorrow ..You can feed them tomorrow evening if they are swimming during the day ..
Fry are so much fun !

What's that dark thing following them around, any idea?
Pat

[coralbandit]

The dark spot above the yolk sac is their eyes ..
Often that is all people see since the fry are so small.
Is it the eyes you are seeing ..I don't really see anything unusual or even food/detritus stuck to them .
They good and clean ..

[Discluv]

The dark spot above the yolk sac is their eyes ..
Often that is all people see since the fry are so small.
Is it the eyes you are seeing ..I don't really see anything unusual or even food/detritus stuck to them .
They good and clean ..

Exactly, that's all I could see with my fry- the eyes. Thats why I was so astonished to see the yolk sac so clearly.
Amazing.

[Second Hand Pat]

The dark spot above the yolk sac is their eyes ..
Often that is all people see since the fry are so small.
Is it the eyes you are seeing ..I don't really see anything unusual or even food/detritus stuck to them .
They good and clean ..

Ok, I had to go make another video and you are right. Using reading glasses was a huge help also lol


http://youtu.be/FnmgiDhoW9k

[Second Hand Pat]

Unless I missed a tiny little miracle in the breeding tank and I think I covered it pretty well with a flashlight and reading glasses lol. The ram fry are gone. :mad: They looked great yesterday and last night. The pair are not protective either. I have to conclude the parents ate the fry. I left the parents last night with live BBS and live blackworms in the tank. So next time do I remove the parents? I am tempted to add a divider to the tank and drop the pair on the side without the fry next time. Or do I keep working with the pair and hope their parental instincts kick in. I will admit that I am with Liz. Important for the fish to raise their own fry :p
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I'm so sorry, Pat. I'd add the divider if I were you. As you may have read, I'm about ready to give up on mine and raise them in a dip and pour next time. The parents can keep trying to do it themselves after I get one spawn.

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm so sorry, Pat. I'd add the divider if I were you. As you may have read, I'm about ready to give up on mine and raise them in a dip and pour next time. The parents can keep trying to do it themselves after I get one spawn.

I am not too bummed Liz. To be honest I will give them a couple more chances as I will be away for a week early in Feb. and unsure if Tom (my hubby) is willing to mess with fry. I may go ahead and cut the foam divider and add it to the tank. Makes a great media for micro-flora.
Pat

[coralbandit]

Sorry the wigglers are gone .
IMO they were scattered loosely which is the parents not doing their job like you mentioned ..A dish / tray may help keep the fry together but in the long run the parents should ..
That is why I always say look in the corner ..The parents know the best way to contain them ..
I got Bolivian rams on their 4 set of eggs since raising 2 and they let the wigglers just wander off and then nothing comes from them ? Maybe this time ?

[Second Hand Pat]

A couple pics from the 50 gallon where the other rams play.

126635

126636

126637

[coralbandit]

They really are such beautiful fish !
Those two boys there are very nice Pat .
Great pictures .

[LizStreithorst]

Beautiful pics, Pat.

[danotaylor]

Wow Pat, incredible photos. You have a true gift with the camera! And the Rams are lovely subjects as well!!

[Second Hand Pat]

They really are such beautiful fish !
Those two boys there are very nice Pat .
Great pictures .

Thank you Tom :D on both counts :D


Beautiful pics, Pat.

Thank you also Liz :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Wow Pat, incredible photos. You have a true gift with the camera! And the Rams are lovely subjects as well!!

Thank you Danny :D Two hobby's; fish keeping and photography :D:D They keep me busy :D:D:D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I have another good sized batch, they hatched midday today. I watched both parents being very busy corralling fry in a corner. This batch will be successful and you want to know why. A week from Tuesday I am going on my yearly photo workshop and will be gone a week. Might need to teach the hubby about fry tending. :D
Pat

[Xirxes]

Im keen on photography myself, what type of workshop do you attend? I have followed Mangelson's work for ages and he may be mthe only U.S. workshop i'd consider, but i'd never pull the trigger.

I'm a landscape and wildlife buff myself, bucket list is to get to Galapagos for a week of photography.

[Second Hand Pat]

Im keen on photography myself, what type of workshop do you attend? I have followed Mangelson's work for ages and he may be mthe only U.S. workshop i'd consider, but i'd never pull the trigger.

I'm a landscape and wildlife buff myself, bucket list is to get to Galapagos for a week of photography.

This will be a local workshop for me. The other workshops were in Seattle to shoot eagles, Yellowstone in winter and the southwest of the US to shoot landscapes. I do not really follow anyone as I rather create my own style. I do however seek the advice and guidance from several local photographers and I am very active in my local camera club. I mostly shoot wildlife but have also landscapes, macro and people. The Galapagos is a dream trip. :D
Pat

[Xirxes]

Kindred spirits you and I!

Here’s an eagle in Yellowstone Wyoming entrance pass!

http://flic.kr/p/dkdXmp

Ive done Yellowstone, Yosemite, FL Everglades, local Socal mountains. Hoping for Glacier and Smoky mtns. Over next few years!

[Second Hand Pat]

Kindred spirits you and I!

Here’s an eagle in Yellowstone Wyoming entrance pass!

https://flic.kr/p/dkdXmp

Ive done Yellowstone, Yosemite, FL Everglades, local Socal mountains. Hoping for Glacier and Smoky mtns. Over next few years!

Nice, here is one of mine :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/4755/24727611427_0a7483d9d1_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/DF6to4)DSC_8421-5 (https://flic.kr/p/DF6to4) by Pat Husband (https://www.flickr.com/photos/129594174@N08/), on Flickr

[Xirxes]

How do you post with it showing thumbnail? Need to remove the “s” from link?

I have heard that northern coastal eagles are thick as seagulls up there. Photog’s delight!

[Second Hand Pat]

How do you post with it showing thumbnail? Need to remove the “s” from link?

I have heard that northern coastal eagles are thick as seagulls up there. Photog’s delight!

Under Share use the BBcode link and paste it here in the post.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Still have fry and this is the longest time for this pair to have live fry. Both parents are fairly active about finding the fry and spitting them in front of the larger pot. Fingers crossed.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I spoke too soon. The parents tucked most of the fry in the larger pot. We should have a ram horde tomorrow :D
Pat

[coralbandit]

Great with the rams and amazing photos !
You'll all have to get used to squinting and cringing when I post pics [not photos ]..

[two utes]

How exciting...Cant wait to see some of your amazing pictures of these guys. Good luck

[Second Hand Pat]

How exciting...Cant wait to see some of your amazing pictures of these guys. Good luck

Thank you Joe :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Things are looking great. Most all the fry are in the larger pot with dad on guard. BBS will be ready about noonish and hoping the fry are free swimming by then.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

It sounds like this is the time they'll figure it out. Waiting for a pic of a big swarm soon.

[Second Hand Pat]

It sounds like this is the time they'll figure it out. Waiting for a pic of a big swarm soon.

Maybe not quite Liz. As of last night the fry which are left were still on the bottom of the large pot. Dad is have tending them this whole time. He is still in the pot this morning so there must still but some live fry.

I think the parents have it right so time to look at myself to see if I can do something better?? I wonder if the tank is too cool? About 81/82?
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Most folks agree that 84 is best, but since Tom has his at 80 I compromised and put mine at 82 as well. I think that I'll try bumping it up to 84 as well and see what happens. Thanks for reminding me about that.

[coralbandit]

81-82 is fine IMO but a little warmer won't hurt them any either..
They do handle temps up to 90 pretty well .
Takes as long to get through wiggler stage as to hatch so they may still be cooking ..

[Second Hand Pat]

Most folks agree that 84 is best, but since Tom has his at 80 I compromised and put mine at 82 as well. I think that I'll try bumping it up to 84 as well and see what happens. Thanks for reminding me about that.

I bumped the temp up a little Liz last night. Al least each spawn makes a little more progress.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

81-82 is fine IMO but a little warmer won't hurt them any either..
They do handle temps up to 90 pretty well .
Takes as long to get through wiggler stage as to hatch so they may still be cooking ..

I will give them a little more time Tom.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

We have ram fry here and they be free swimming....not a lot but a step forward. There are only about a twelve or so that I can see and they are all over the tank. Now what? Do they collect up in a swarm? I added small amount of the tiny BBS they like but it is not alive. I do have micro-worms. Here's a video...amazing that the phone can take that. Does it look to you guys that they still a have a bit of a yolk sack?


http://youtu.be/t933wgvvcpA

[coralbandit]

NICE !
I don't see any yolk sac so they are free swimming .
Don't worry about feeding them tonight .
I don't want to get your hopes up but hopefully there will be more tomorrow ?
They hide their fry sneaky like and they don't all hatch at the same time .
Even if there are not more they should be fine till tomorrow for feeding .
They do need to eat tomorrow so if you don't see them eat the BBS then try the micro worms .
Sometimes they need to see the food move to entice them and then Amy gets them to eat egg yolk old school ?
1 step forward yes !

[Second Hand Pat]

NICE !
I don't see any yolk sac so they are free swimming .
Don't worry about feeding them tonight .
I don't want to get your hopes up but hopefully there will be more tomorrow ?
They hide their fry sneaky like and they don't all hatch at the same time .
Even if there are not more they should be fine till tomorrow for feeding .
They do need to eat tomorrow so if you don't see them eat the BBS then try the micro worms .
Sometimes they need to see the food move to entice them and then Amy gets them to eat egg yolk old school ?
1 step forward yes !

Thanks Tom, will the parents gather them up? I watched mom grab one fry swimming mid-tank and she went into the pot and I think spit it out. There is about six or so gathered at the waterline. I wonder if I sure suck them up with some airline tubing and spit them back into the pot?
Pat

[coralbandit]

Parents will gather them or I would just watch ..
How are they today ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Parents will gather them or I would just watch ..
How are they today ?

I have not checked them yet Tom and I just turned the light on. I give the discus (especially the heckels) about 15 minutes to adapt to the light.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Holding my breath...

[Second Hand Pat]

Holding my breath...

I see two fry bouncing along the waterline Liz. The parents are very quiet this morning, almost hiding.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I hope they're hiding with a bunch of kids, Pat. Raising just 2 little kids really doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Second Hand Pat]

I hope they're hiding with a bunch of kids, Pat. Raising just 2 little kids really doesn't seem worth the effort.

I can not see any kids around them Liz and only see one fry bouncing along the waterline. The fry swims weird, turning upside down then right side up. Think there is an issue with that little one. The parents are huddled together, will be quiet for a while then move about peck at the bottom and get quiet again.
Pat

[coralbandit]

The swimming at the surface is not real common or necessarily a good sign ?
There should be more or the parents are slackers ..It doesn't seem like are minding the fry at all ?
It's no joke the blacks are harder to breed and raise .
Hope fully the parents are getting better every time .
That really is how it happens .

[LizStreithorst]

That must have been disappointing. You came so close to success...If I were in your shoes, what with them getting closer and closer with every spawn, I'd keep letting them try. I've only given up on mine because they get to the same point, to where the eggs are just shy of wiggling, when they eat them. I hope the pair does better for you next time.

[two utes]

That's too bad Pat.....Look at it this way. You're one step closer to success :)

[Second Hand Pat]

The swimming at the surface is not real common or necessarily a good sign ?
There should be more or the parents are slackers ..It doesn't seem like are minding the fry at all ?
It's no joke the blacks are harder to breed and raise .
Hope fully the parents are getting better every time .
That really is how it happens .

The pair have made great strides the last couple of spawns Tom and I am patience. So no worries. The pair really do work together with no sign of any discord and I will learn with them. They tended the fry until free swimming so that is the next hurdle. As far as being harder to breed and raise, I'm up for that. :D
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Don't do it unless you feel that all hope is lost. Your pair are overflowing with hope.

[Second Hand Pat]

That must have been disappointing. You came so close to success...If I were in your shoes, what with them getting closer and closer with every spawn, I'd keep letting them try. I've only given up on mine because they get to the same point, to where the eggs are just shy of wiggling, when they eat them. I hope the pair does better for you next time.

It's all good Liz but will admit to being a bit excited but I will continue to let them try. As far as your guys maybe you need to do something different?
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Don't do it unless you feel that all hope is lost. Your pair are overflowing with hope.

Don't do what Liz :confused:
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

That's too bad Pat.....Look at it this way. You're one step closer to success :)

Totally agree Joe, it's only a manner of time :)
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Don't do what Liz :confused:
Pat

I thought I said not to give up on yours like I did on mine.

[Second Hand Pat]

I thought I said not to give up on yours like I did on mine.

I never give up unless all hope is lost :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

The pair laid last night and it is a huge spawn and I think their largest. I am leaving Tuesday on a photography workshop so I will be removing the eggs as I will not feel hubby is comfortable with messing with this. I hate to removing this spawn but think it is for the best for now.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I'd have done the same.

[Second Hand Pat]

Since I have returned from my trip the pair have spawned twice with no forward progress in fry care. I am returned them to the 50 gallon with the rest of the rams. They have been breeding for quite a while and think it is time for a rest. I decided to do what Liz did get a pair from Tom. They come next week :D
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Good idea, Pat. Tom's Rams have a brain in their heads as well as being extremely high quality.

[Second Hand Pat]

Good idea, Pat. Tom's Rams have a brain in their heads as well as being extremely high quality.

Agreed Liz and most excited to get them :D plus they will make a wonderful photo challenge :D
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Good luck on that. The blacks are not easy to photograph, but you have great choices of lenses to use.

[coralbandit]

This excites me !
I can't wait to see how this pair does for you Pat .

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck on that. The blacks are not easy to photograph, but you have great choices of lenses to use.

Pretty sure I will need to use a speedlight with them.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

But you have that, right?

[Second Hand Pat]

But you have that, right?

Oh yes lol

[Second Hand Pat]

Black Ram pair here and Thank you Tom. They were packed perfectly.

Already making themselves at home.


http://youtu.be/1GuRbzCaqI4

[coralbandit]

She looks to be cleaning house already !
I wish you success with them .
These fish can be so fun ..

[LizStreithorst]

Looking good, Pat!

[Second Hand Pat]

She looks to be cleaning house already !
I wish you success with them .
These fish can be so fun ..

Thanks Tom for the super nice fish and it did seem that her tube was out last night but no spawning. I would rather they settled in first. Also finally got the small pot bottoms you use for spawning sites and added that to the tank.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking good, Pat!

Thanks Liz :D

[LizStreithorst]

Where's you get the saucers, Pat? I've only seen them sold along with the pots so far. I'm using curved pieces of broken pottery.

[coralbandit]

I didn't expect them to lay last night , but before the week end is over would not surprise me ! I think 5 days is the fastest turn around I have seen ..
I think her cleaning is a good sign of settling in and liking where they are ..
Funny is I moved a pair of EBR into the blacks 5 g where they ate the eggs and the female went to the tray and acted like she was fanning phantom eggs !
There must be some sort of 'odor ' or trace of them left behind she recognized ?

Liz I get the trays at Agway which is just a garden store .They sell the trays separate ..
Maybe in NY they separate everything so we buy more ? 1 pot ,no ! 1 pot and a tray , yes !

[Second Hand Pat]

Where's you get the saucers, Pat? I've only seen them sold along with the pots so far. I'm using curved pieces of broken pottery.

Walmart Liz, the saucers and pots are sold separately.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks, Pat.

[Second Hand Pat]

I didn't expect them to lay last night , but before the week end is over would not surprise me ! I think 5 days is the fastest turn around I have seen ..
I think her cleaning is a good sign of settling in and liking where they are ..
Funny is I moved a pair of EBR into the blacks 5 g where they ate the eggs and the female went to the tray and acted like she was fanning phantom eggs !
There must be some sort of 'odor ' or trace of them left behind she recognized ?

Liz I get the trays at Agway which is just a garden store .They sell the trays separate ..
Maybe in NY they separate everything so we buy more ? 1 pot ,no ! 1 pot and a tray , yes !

Bet it's hormones Tom but that is a WAG (wild *** guess) lol.

The pair seem very comfortable and are hungry and eating Tom. I am hatching them out some live BBS today to help with the settling in. So this pair ate their eggs when they spawned for you?
Pat

[coralbandit]

Bet it's hormones Tom but that is a WAG (wild *** guess) lol.

The pair seem very comfortable and are hungry and eating Tom. I am hatching them out some live BBS today to help with the settling in. So this pair ate their eggs when they spawned for you?
Pat

Yea they ate the eggs they laid Saturday .
To be fair they had just got moved into the 5g from the 33 long with others a day or so before .
I am pretty sure that was their first spawn .
These guys are just getting to 6 months old shortly [9/7/19 is their hatch date ] .

[Second Hand Pat]

Yea they ate the eggs they laid Saturday .
To be fair they had just got moved into the 5g from the 33 long with others a day or so before .
I am pretty sure that was their first spawn .
These guys are just getting to 6 months old shortly [9/7/19 is their hatch date ] .

We have eggs. Laid either last night or this morning. Male guarding.
Pat

[coralbandit]

Fingers crossed !

[LizStreithorst]

mine too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Fingers crossed !


mine too.

Thanks Tom and Liz, they still have eggs :D Dad is guarding mostly.
Pat

[coralbandit]

That is a great sign !
Most that fail don't hesitate to eat the eggs when the lights go out the first time !
I am excited and hoping they do great for you .

[Second Hand Pat]

That is a great sign !
Most that fail don't hesitate to eat the eggs when the lights go out the first time !
I am excited and hoping they do great for you .

I leave the moon lights on at night when the fish are on eggs Tom and I am hopeful also :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Hatching tonight...


http://youtu.be/519BAqB5RWc

[coralbandit]

This is getting good !

[Larry208]

Congrats Pat, keeping my fingers crossed for you. Can`t wait to see what happens from here, looking good.

[Second Hand Pat]

This is getting good !

No kidding Tom, watch the vid below...very busy parents.


Congrats Pat, keeping my fingers crossed for you. Can`t wait to see what happens from here, looking good.

Thanks Larry :D

I have not see fry this active. Less then 24 hours old.


http://youtu.be/DJytWOl-j88

[coralbandit]

FANTASTIC !
It pleases me so much to see both the parents working together ..

[Second Hand Pat]

FANTASTIC !
It pleases me so much to see both the parents working together ..

Me too Tom and they seem to get along really well. I have seen no discord between them. You have good fish :D
Pat

[Larry208]

Wow Pat, they sure are active, taking that as a good sign though ... good healty fry.

[Second Hand Pat]

Wow Pat, they sure are active, taking that as a good sign though ... good healty fry.

That is my take on it Larry, active fry are healthy fry :D
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

You've got it going on, Pat. Tom does indeed breed good fish.

[jeep]

Just getting caught up. This is fun to watch! I'v always liked Rams, but these Black are very nice!!!

[LizStreithorst]

You need a pair, Brian. His blue ones are very blue, too.

[danotaylor]

Looking great Pat! You guys got me thinking I need a pair or 2 in my 125 community tank. Not for breeding, but just to enjoy. I have always liked Rams but the ones I have kept have been genetically weak and didn't last long. Tom's seem very robust...hmmmmm ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

You've got it going on, Pat. Tom does indeed breed good fish.

Yes he does Liz and the fish seem to have a clue which is super nice :D


Just getting caught up. This is fun to watch! I'v always liked Rams, but these Black are very nice!!!

Thank you Brian and these are super nice fish :D

So the fry seem a little less active this morning but not sure if that is a concern or an observation??
Pat

[coralbandit]

I was surprised to see them swimming so much while still holding their yolk sac .
Hopefully they are just settling in before they form the cloud .
I appreciate all the kind words from you guys .

[Second Hand Pat]

I was surprised to see them swimming so much while still holding their yolk sac .
Hopefully they are just settling in before they form the cloud .
I appreciate all the kind words from you guys .

I spend several times watching them today Tom and they were still pretty active. The parents and fry hoard looks great. I fully expect a swarm soon. :D
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Appears to be a bit of yolk sack left on the fry...


http://youtu.be/iW0DnCf0Vek

[Second Hand Pat]

The swarm appears to have started. I gave them some micro worms this morning. Later today their version of BBS will be available.


http://youtu.be/RbuhD4KQLrM

[LizStreithorst]

You watched them very carefully. Your eyes work better than mine. Your pics and making videos are better than everything I've ever seen.

My blacks just spawned again in a sneaky spot. One of the front corners of the tank! I gave them a sock of tea. They were successful before with the tea so my hopes are up.

[Second Hand Pat]

You watched them very carefully. Your eyes work better than mine. Your pics and making videos are better than everything I've ever seen.

My blacks just spawned again in a sneaky spot. One of the front corners of the tank! I gave them a sock of tea. They were successful before with the tea so my hopes are up.

Thank you Liz but honestly a bit worried. Fry are all over the tank with many gathered at the top of the water column. Tom suggested collecting near the top was not a good thing. The parents are still trying to collect them. The water column is full of live BBS but not sure if the fry are eating or not. I thought the fry would hang around the parents but perhaps I am wrong. I did drop the water column so the tank is half full and did a 50% water change.


http://youtu.be/C--9mkcymko