I hatch rams ...

[coralbandit]

Hey everyone you guys are great and I love getting in on some of the talks .
Thanks !
I have never made a thread here and living in Saratoga NY being a roofer I had this week to play in the fish room ..
I feel embarrassed to say "Finally" in early December so don't judge me !:evilgrin:
To the point I made a couple videos this week ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILCqvUVWzc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdMGvpKabdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1NZ5zj5gdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImV8sjnFWdA

:eek:
That takes these fry through the week and their first move ..
I hope you all enjoyed seeing ram fry free swimming week 1 .

[LizStreithorst]

I am totally blown away. You're the type of breeder I most admire. I'm glad you got to take a rest from roofing. The only times I did roofing was in the heat of summer in Mobile AL. It was brutal.

[danotaylor]

http://youtu.be/QILCqvUVWzc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdMGvpKabdc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1NZ5zj5gdM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImV8sjnFWdA

Awesome mate!!

[coralbandit]

Thanks Daniel !
I'll get the hang here maybe ?
Liz I just do the same thing every day .. Feed the fish like farmers feed the flock or herd !
Not even holidays off but very rewarding ..Breeding fish is so good to me and for me …
A therapy like and Lord knows ...Roofers are not the most sane people ..

[danotaylor]

No prob Tom. If you take the "s" out of https after you paste the link in the vid tab your vids will load like the TV screen :)

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks Daniel !
I'll get the hang here maybe ?
Liz I just do the same thing every day .. Feed the fish like farmers feed the flock or herd !
Not even holidays off but very rewarding ..Breeding fish is so good to me and for me …
A therapy like and Lord knows ...Roofers are not the most sane people ..

Tom, you are the most eloquent roofer I know.

[Mugwump]

Gary Wright...Alan Parsons......nice.....waiting for the Donald Fagan now too.........great fish room tunes.....Miles too

[Second Hand Pat]

Thoroughly enjoyed your set of videos Tom. You definitely have lots of success with your rams. Question for you, the ram fry in the floating fry tanks. Do you add the eggs to the fry tanks or move the fry after hatching?
Pat

[coralbandit]

Gary Wright...Alan Parsons......nice.....waiting for the Donald Fagan now too.........great fish room tunes.....Miles too

Fish and music.Love Steely Dan ad DF ! I am not in my fish room for minutes when I have the time ..I would never be where I am breeding rams ..We both share a season .Only they think they are in SA! Just like raising discus devotion ,love and time .It rarely works with less .
So lets fast forward back again ! I started you all with free swimmers and wigglers . I kind of feel like I shorted you the exciting egg phase !
For real though from the Black female and long fin gold and an un documented spawn between a male Long Fin GBR and a female EBR eggs from day one bandit style ..
Large dip and pour ,terracotta tray that was in the tank [not magic] and 1 drop MB with a plastic disposable air stone ..
I think I got till next Weds so we'll do daily as long as I can ,well call it how to hatch ram eggs ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjHA4rMio28
Always music you can turn down and listen to what you like ..

[coralbandit]

Thoroughly enjoyed your set of videos Tom. You definitely have lots of success with your rams. Question for you, the ram fry in the floating fry tanks. Do you add the eggs to the fry tanks or move the fry after hatching?
Pat

I remove the eggs from breeding tank to the dip and pour .I hatch and have the fry free swim usually a couple days [but have had them last 3 weeks with water changes] and then move them to the betta tanks ..Not really a gentle journey ,I'll get that when I move these next fry ..
I change water when they become wigglers to remove the MB so they are not 'babied' even from the beginning . I hope I can really show with these eggs how I do it .
Not sure what the magic number is for discus but rams many agree on 14 days free swimming .Once they make it to 2 weeks free swimming the rest is your fault or poor genes /deformed !
I get maybe 50-100 out of each spawn ..I do not coddle the runts or weak .I only want the best fish possible ..

[coralbandit]

Well this could be more a lesson for some of us then others .
Either I get to show you something here or I learn humility again from my fish .
Being 'new ' here you have not heard the latest .." As soon as you think you can predict mother nature she will make a fool of you " !
I am use to it and humble already but I don't give up hope and this besides luck is what sets me apart from Joe common breeder . Experience ..
I talk through the loud music ,there is a little info of value ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvt-jX-47zc

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, every time I see one of your videos I want to visit your fish room. Alas, even if I were offered and invitation, Saratga is a bit of a drive from Moselle.

It isn't just Rams that will humble you. Discus have done it to me more times than I would like to admit. Anyone who has bred animals long time, with a goal in mind, has been humbled by them. If they claim opposite I would no not to trust them.

Would you do me a favor and post some vids of your sword tails?

[danotaylor]

I agree with Liz about the sword tails...I used to catch them in a creek near my house when I was a kid...until seeing the incredible color of your groups I have never had the urge or inclination to keep them again...time warp!!

[coralbandit]

I promise to show my swordtail collection ..
I have overtime collected some of the hottest and rarer variations . They make me feel like a kid or having fun at a kids level more then any other fish [well my red picta are fun too..]
Just Today I received new blood for my Ed Parker Jet Blacks .I have had this fish true for years now and receiving new Ed parkers is such a blessing ..
I have White albino ,Jet black ,Alpha [ruby red /alpha] long fin ruby reds , cauliflower sabre tails .I am hopefully winning a long fin white albino male in the coming week ..
Funny when I was learning to breed rams in the beginning the breeder helping me recommended I get Andrew Soh Discus The Naked Truth and his disease book as he used and explained many variations discus breeders try for with swordtails ! They got something common about how they pass/share genes ..Funny a pretty insightful book for discus breedes/keepers with swordtails in it !
Hopefully tomorrow I will get some swordtails on video.Had to pack today and need to go back and change water on the D&P in this video !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YchNgXFl7RU
Quick edit to say I just found first fry from the sabre cauliflower swords ..Lets hope I was right about both females I pulled to nets yesterday ..

[LizStreithorst]

Be still my heart...a little baby! I can't wait until you find more.

[coralbandit]

Be still my heart...a little baby! I can't wait until you find more.

I am bad with English maybe and it is a difficult language .
Fry could be one or plural ? Right ?
Got like a heap of fry Liz ..I was not sure the female was done ,as I mentioned I pack the net with live plants ,but I saw enough fry in the net I was ready and content to remove her now !
Thinking 30+ .
Yea I am excited ! I already told my Hawaiian friend as he was one of the ones who said very hard to breed..He loves long fin swords also and sent me a beautiful green tux long fin female .
I count my blessing to have friends that share what they do ,did or know ..He said males kill males and females jump. That meant one male per tank and low water level with lots of floating plants to me .
He may have suffered but I gained from his experience already ..I do not discount luck ever !

[LizStreithorst]

Your English is Excellent. I misinterpreted. I'm delighted for you. I agree, friends are everything in the fish hobby. It's the people who most love sharing their knowledge make the best friends.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tom, I love what you are sharing here. Thank you for being so generous with both your knowledge and time :D
Pat

[coralbandit]

Thanks Pat ! I really try to share ..I want others to be able to enjoy fish as much as I do ..
Being new here I have not shared my daily goal . My life goal . It is to simply put back more then I take . Once practiced it is not so hard ..
I try to offer what I think may be of value when I can ..Giving is one of the best things for YOU !
Fish are a major part of my life and have been in my life for the last 30+ years ..I can't imagine not having any tanks ..
Thank the snow and now rain for my extra time !

[LizStreithorst]

I don't know which other forums you hang out at, but I can tell you that this place seems to attract people with kind hearts. I know this from personal experience. It's a joy to have someone here with so much knowledge.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Liz you guys are great ! I got carried away with packing and a buddy yesterday..You all didn't miss much .Just wigglers sitting on the bottom of clean dip and pour . Here they are today .
They should be free swimming later or tomorrow .I hatch BBS 3x a day [year round now ] so whenever they are ready I will hook them up !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EdIjLos6iY
I will be making a swordtail video soon ..They as close to my heart as the rams .The rams just launched me into real dedicated breeding ..So much fun !

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Tom, you are using plant dishes for spawning platforms for the rams. What size are those across? My guys keep digging pits in the sand so they must not like the smooth rocks for spawning. Too elevated I guess.
Pat

[coralbandit]

Hey Pat yea I use 3 inch terracotta plant pot bottoms [trays ]..
If the pair spawns elsewhere ,I missed and will relocate the tray !
Back corners are preferred but I keep my trays near front so I can see and take or watch when parents move them .
If I take them then I place then vertical in the large dip and pour with 1 drop MB and an air stone .The good fall off the tray away from fungus eggs . I never mess or remove bad eggs ..None of my rams do either !The video shows all after that .
If the eggs stay with the parents 9 out of 10 times they will move the good to another location [the pit in corner although I am BB].
The parents take the fry "as I see it " to move them away from any bad fungus eggs to a completely clean and 'strategically ' new spot .Predation in the wild starts early .Eggs are delicious ! So the smart parent re locates for multiple reasons " as I see it ".
Many say 'Oh they ate them "...Ha ! Witness patience and practice ! Sneaky fish ..Next day " or so " a cloud is seen . Now there is a lot that goes into to making good parents [yes making them ] . We'll talk about 'training ' later..
Both the rams and swordtails are teaching me today ! Sometimes hard to tell who trains who !

[Second Hand Pat]

Thank Tom and appreciate the detailed answer. I hear you on learning from the fish. They are good teachers if you pay attention.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

What a big bunch of sword tails! I'm curious...what size tanks do you have them in? My smallest tank is a 20. I have a bunch of expensive large tanks in my fish room because I bought them with Discus grow out in mind. I guess I'll be replacing some of them with smaller tanks.

[jeep]

Fish and music.Love Steely Dan ad DF ! I am not in my fish room for minutes when I have the time ..I would never be where I am breeding rams ..We both share a season .Only they think they are in SA! Just like raising discus devotion ,love and time .It rarely works with less .
So lets fast forward back again ! I started you all with free swimmers and wigglers . I kind of feel like I shorted you the exciting egg phase !
For real though from the Black female and long fin gold and an un documented spawn between a male Long Fin GBR and a female EBR eggs from day one bandit style ..
Large dip and pour ,terracotta tray that was in the tank [not magic] and 1 drop MB with a plastic disposable air stone ..
I think I got till next Weds so we'll do daily as long as I can ,well call it how to hatch ram eggs ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjHA4rMio28
Always music you can turn down and listen to what you like ..

Steely Dan is one of my favorites, but I believe you snuck in a little Genesis in there as well!! Good fish room music :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[coralbandit]

There will should be music in the fish room ..Some of it is "for them ".. Incubus today ..Listen to Are you in after this !
Worked today [ thumbs down emoji ] but my fish room lights turn on when I get up at 4 am and stay on till 9pm so morning check in was un eventful ..I plan/ have 1 hour in am [5-6] I feed and make observations ..Then off .
Came home and saw some action in wigglers tanks and fed live BBS very lightly , which means like 3 drops from syringe of rinsed BBS in about 6oz water ..I hatch about 3/4 teaspoon per batch [3 batches a day ] . The wigglers did not need it but I was light enough I am not worried ..
Changed 75% water in both fry tanks ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gweUGkjO2U

[coralbandit]

Ok I missed a couple days .But only making videos so have no fear !
Seems like 10 or less from the black female/gold longfin and maybe 20 from the GBR long fin and EBR female..
I moved them both together to the messy green 2g tank in the middle yesterday after cleaning it up ..
We'll see if I can them on video tomorrow .They are very small fry but eating BBS like champs .

[coralbandit]

Ok day 9 of youngest fry and day 15 for the other two ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqh1epY1fdw

[Discluv]

The additional pair of dark rams and the golden ram have settled in well.
Thanks, Tom.

They absolutely love freeze-dried black-worms-- you can hear these little fish snapping them up at the waterline :)

[coralbandit]

The additional pair of dark rams and the golden ram have settled in well.
Thanks, Tom.

They absolutely love freeze-dried black-worms-- you can hear these little fish snapping them up at the waterline :)

Glad to hear they are settling in well. Noisy fish are happy fish !
Out of all who have received the darks you are in the top 4 of who stand a chance of actually raising fry IMO ..I tried to pick you winners to help you along ! I would love to see you raise up some darks..
My rams love Als Black worms ..I just looked at the fry in the video and thought when ?? When do you leave them a little piece of the blackworms to nibble on .It may seriously only be another week or two at most ..
Besides temperature and heat rams share the desire to eat all day long if they could just like discus … The black worms are perfect to be stuck to the glass in small fry tanks .Easy to see if they are being eaten and even easier to see who is eating them ..
My tiny 1 inch clown loaches in the discus 60G claim a cube from the behemoth disc without issue ! No fish can refuse them once they understand ~
I think I just started feeding my 3rd or 4th Kilo ! I buy 1/2 kilo regular cubes and 1/2 kilo with spinach added and keep them in my freezer .. I take out like a weeks worth at a time ..
I am sure you all know but spinach is the fastest most readily absorbed source of iron for fish we can introduce ...Lacing it with black worms gets the most finicky carnivore to eat the veggies no problem ! :p

[Discluv]

Yeah, Ive been feeding freeze-dried blackworms for my discus and other fish about 7 years now. About when I did, I also stopped feeding beef-heart to my discus. Seemed like a better choice to me.
I typically get the freeze-dried blackworms with spinach or spirulina. That way the fish get in their greens.
I also add Boyds Vitachem to them a couple times a week( soak them in) and feed my fish. I have found that their immune systems are much stronger since Ive been doing this.

A question: what temperature would you keep these guys. I have them at 80 degrees right now, but can turn up heat if need be.

[coralbandit]

I too use the Boyds vita chem ~ Good stuff !
I like 80-82 myself ,but never really turned them up much more on purpose or for long ..
I know many say they are all good 86f or higher .
I never much experimented at different temps .80-82 should do the trick ..

[coralbandit]

New day new eggs !
I like to let the parents raise them when they will. I have a couple new variations here so when I get first spawn I try to take them for 2 reasons .
First they are new to me so I want them and really don't want to take chances with a pair not proven yet .Even if I have faith .I have faith in this pair but ?
Secondly once I take the eggs literally their clock resets!They look around , alittle lost ,confused and mad for a day maybe ..Then if I do right by them conditioning they get right back at it .
This is a new pair so the eggs are mine and they can try to raise the next set which could be here for New Years !
These are going to be a hybrid of the Hawaiian gold long fin male and Electric Blue female .The combo result is known as pearl but I have never tried to get this yet ..
Hoping for new color and long fins maybe on a few ??
https://i.imgur.com/nfgce8tl.jpg
^^ in their 5 g tank ^^
https://i.imgur.com/B9gNmaul.jpg
^^ not bad size spawn ^^
https://i.imgur.com/u70orUdl.jpg
^^ you all know how this goes ^^

Got my second set of fry from 2 gold long fins yesterday and the parents are doing great with the swarm in tow !
I'll try to video them tomorrow ,so much more majestic then being the bandit !

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Tom, would love to see some parent/fry videos. The pearl sounds like an interesting cross, hybrid...whatever lol
Pat

[coralbandit]

Hi Tom, would love to see some parent/fry videos. The pearl sounds like an interesting cross, hybrid...whatever lol
Pat
Here you go Pat !
These are from my buddy Tom in Hawaii. This is their second spawn they have raised .The first are now days short of 2 months old [ 10/27 ] .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aRGfaqFzBc

[Second Hand Pat]

Cool. Is the parent in the video calling the fry with the fin flicking motion?
Pat

[coralbandit]

Yea they are communicating ! That is how dwarf cichlids do it ..I am told the 'learning' last about 2 weeks and then they can be separated. Another method Iwas taught is they are ready for separation when you see the fry hunting and recognizing food on their own ..
He is alerting them to me or the light from camera in the video .. They just had huge feeding and 75% water change before the video ..

[LizStreithorst]

That's one beautiful fish.

[coralbandit]

How are your eggs today Pat ? What do they look like .You're not a newb ! Your video was GREAT ! I LOVED IT !

Thanks Liz .
My experience with long fin rams has been 100% horrible until Tom sent me these !Go figure a customer /buddy sending you the prize ! Tom is a special person to me .
His fish are beyond words. He sent me 6 of these little gold long fins and this is what they turned into ! I know rams ,blown away ! I even questioned him . I am embarrassed but you never know till you see . They were small and he sexed them and said they would raise multiple sets of fry together as pairs . He is special .
We are still missing one part from me [ Pat got it ] to make this a complete 'fast forward back' … I wish I could plan stuff like this but we have already discussed who trains who ?? Up at 4 am feeding fish and hatching BBS ??
They own me and I can see how many become overwhelmed ..That is when passion shows ! I like to say true colors shine the brightest .
The next video ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS6-0Gd5XcM
I do appreciate all the kind words . No matter how 'connected' I sound or how many fish I sell I am really just a simple man with more then one addiction ? I am not embarrassed to say I love fish ..They are special to me and my time .
It is the joy and pleasure they give me I try most to share . Good fish as all you guys know make a huge difference in how the experience goes ..

[LizStreithorst]

Lordy Tom, if people didn't know before that you were passionate, they do after that story.

There are just so many people who want to pass on what they've made or what they know to someone who appreciates what they get. It's like that with everything. You and he are lucky to have found one another.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tom, I love your passion also. :D The two rams in the video above, is one a pearl?

So the eggs were yellowish when laid. Tonight they seem more clear. The pair is getting along very nice. If things continue to go well they will hatch tomorrow night?

and no, not a newb. I have breed wild discus and raised some F1s. I have also raised apistos successfully. All that is recorded on my youtube channel.
Pat

[coralbandit]

The odd looking one is a hybrid of GBR and EBR .I found many females with a ton of red on them from this cross overtime so decided to pull the most red and breed with a gold hoping to get red ?? Every hybrid is a little different looking so who really knows where this will go with out generations to get there ? That is great pair and they will raise their fry for sure ..
Yes Pat hopefully you will have wiggler tonight or tomorrow .I love watching others breed fish !
There may be a fine line between passion and crazy ? I hope I am right on it balanced well !

[coralbandit]

I know this is about rams but my affliction is strong !
https://i.imgur.com/PCnqgd0l.jpg
These are my Hans Santarems with some fry attached !
FINALLY ! No painted tank or special tricks ,just patience and good fish keeping practices ..
Pretty psyched this a.m. regardless of outcome ..
One step at a time ..

[danotaylor]

Sweet Tom. Is the Santeram pair in their own tank?

[coralbandit]

Sweet Tom. Is the Santeram pair in their own tank?

Thanks Daniel ! They are in their own side of a tank ? I made an eggcrate divider and wrapped it with white filter floss.
They have the larger half of a Deep Blue 60g "frag tank ' .It is 48 long x 24 wide x 12 tall .They can have the whole tank once I get my large Albino Dantumns to my buddy in Indiana after new years .
I use to have buddies local to give fish to ,but now I have to ship em to get to them to my buddies ..
The Santarems were my first choice when I was picking out my discus ,funny how they earn top spot in the fish room still today also ! I have a pair of Blue Snakeskins that were dominant and started breeding first but they are just clowns ??

[Second Hand Pat]

I know this is about rams but my affliction is strong !
https://i.imgur.com/PCnqgd0l.jpg
These are my Hans Santarems with some fry attached !
FINALLY ! No painted tank or special tricks ,just patience and good fish keeping practices ..
Pretty psyched this a.m. regardless of outcome ..
One step at a time ..

Sweet pair Tom and hope all goes well with the fry. :D
Pat

[coralbandit]

Here is a quick video of one group of my cauliflower sabre tail swords ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QOBfK21u3g

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks, Tom. How are your fry doing?

[danotaylor]

Very nice Tom!!

[coralbandit]

Thanks, Tom. How are your fry doing?

The fry seem great .I just moved them into 20 talls ..
Funny is I know they come in different colors but that never really crossed my mind.
The male I show to the right is a sailfin ruby red from alphas[having red/black alpha fry ].
I am pretty sure these cauliflower [2 separate tanks from the sailfin ruby reds] seem to be throwing alpha [red/black ]fry also ??
One breeder says that the sabre tail is just a fat tailed ruby red ? But my ruby reds have black eyes I think .
Most fry from the cauliflower look to be red with red eyes like the adult cauliflowers . They are red eyed which is not uncommon in fancy red swords . Just not sure about the alphas .
I think it is a wait and see?
No real mention of Red eyed particularly in alphas I have found ..Glass is horrible but here are the red eyes ;
https://i.imgur.com/KbxHRXAl.jpg
^cauliflower^
https://i.imgur.com/igcCBfjl.jpg
^ sailfin ruby red fry ^
I raise them in paint strainers if I have to and saw Santa secret helper !
https://i.imgur.com/KfB79J3l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ilhbudKl.jpg
^he got himself in the net ,I just didn't think I would watch him get out !^
He was out 10 seconds after that pic .
I'll take the help !

[coralbandit]

Very nice Tom!!
Many thanks .

[coralbandit]

So it seems many fish in the fish room are happy !
Some happy to mess with me ..Little do they know I know more about them then they do about me ..Well I hope ?
My Santarems kept some fry attached for a couple days but on 12/27 they were fryless and spawned again !
Looks like the usual with this batch but these guys do better every time so far , so I just hope they get it right before they decide to take break .
I have read the young and dumb and know all about it with rams .
Just when you think you have seen young and dumb some new fish swims into your fish room and makes you just say ?
First spawn for multicolor Alien bettas took place today.. They did pretty good with the female even helping to send eggs back to the surface ..
For real ,I know most females eat the eggs [fish are so predictable ] but I watched her spit them out 1-2 inches below the surface with a little bubble ! She did better then him as far as breeding went all around .
He gathered many eggs ,there may have several hundred .I was blown away how many this little fish had .For real the picture shows them next to a disposable airstone and standard air line ..
Here are the pics !
https://i.imgur.com/0iqHNUUl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Wnw8rvfl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vtVkfPbl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6nrffOQl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MCbuq0il.jpg
Those are eggs just below him in last picture .
You can also note the eggs at the surface upper left in the other pics ..
Oh yea how did the male screw up ??
No nest ! He has not built a nest at all.Seemed he was going to get around to it and did not ?
They must have been done as he chased her away after about 2 hours so I removed her .
Now he is just swimming around and I see eggs on the bottom of tank ..
Talk about young and dumb !:focus:

[LizStreithorst]

I've had that with a pair of Pearl Gouramis and still got fry. Stupid yes, but like you tell me not time to give up on the spawn.

[coralbandit]

Nice !
I know nothing until I see it for myself so didn't sound stupid and ask if wild bettas made nest ?
He has his own tank with her next door ..I do know patience is one of the big tricks ..
I'll be watching .
Thanks Liz.

[LizStreithorst]

No guarantees, but it did happen to me with the pearls.

[coralbandit]

So the eggs from the betta were all at bottom of tank yesterday . Not like 300 but many and the male is aloof !
The second pair [the triple A blues ] spawned yesterday and he had a small nest ?Still watching both ,it is how I learn ?

Back to rams .. I got some pictures ..
Every body say BLACK !
https://i.imgur.com/9ZI8ysnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/B2XJmjWl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/81aNolyl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TYI7J5Bl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8qpiVnIl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LGREB2Ol.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VVfu6eVl.jpg
So this pair was in the 60g with my male disc and clown loaches.
There is maybe 10+ other rams also .
It seemed pretty clear watching they were pairing and I could see their tubes .
So I caught them much to all the fishes efforts against me and placed them in a 5.5 g.
Eggs within hours but I wasn't really sure the male did his thing ?
That was 2 days ago 12/29 and today it is clear the eggs are viable so I am the bandit ..
I just mentioned that I have not yet had a single spawn that was all dark yet ..
Fins crossed and leaving nothing to chance .
This seems to be a great pair so they can stay in their 5g and raise the next batch .
Kind of excited to see a spawn from two such dark [BLACK] parents …
To boot their darkness they are both beasts in size even by my standard ..

[danotaylor]

Awesome Tom, great thread and the info and pics are sweet mate. You're a veritable fish husband, lol. Such a cool hobby...

[coralbandit]

So as my rams keep doing what they do I see strange things in other tanks .
I don't do my discus like many of you ,they need to work a little too.
My Santarems have spawned maybe 10+ times now in the last 2 months and even got as far as having fry attach for like a week .
After that week they spawned again and I think ate the eggs[2 spawns ago ] ! Now they are on eggs again now [we are going in good chronological order here ] that are soon to be wigglers on the cone and I just noticed 4 or 5 pretty large fry attaching and bouncing back and fourth between the two ..I know I keep saying rams are sneaky but these fish are just silly !
I am thinking fry have been 'hiding' or I am just going blind ? There at least 4 or 5 ,maybe more if my sight is failing ! :confused:
They are clearly too large for this batch so now these fish confuse me or surprise me more then I suspected …


https://i.imgur.com/N6HF3nVl.jpg

I am not sure if this is a good example of patience or the combined fact I have been a procrastinator my whole life and have 60 tanks !
The fry are definitely from the last batch ..
Is this common ?

[LizStreithorst]

Yes, it's common that they will spawn if what's left of the last batch is too small for them to want to bother with.

[coralbandit]

Yes, it's common that they will spawn if what's left of the last batch is too small for them to want to bother with.
So what is the success rate with this type of behavior ? I don't see the older trying to eat the new fry ?? These 2 are keepers just because I enjoy them !
Get it right next time is the fish room mantra ..These seemed to begging for it !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an3IBssDQuQ


Of course there are rams today ! These two are on their third try but have the largest spawn so far .Hopefully the parents get past eating them ? I have added alder cones per a buddy.He said they 'calmed down ' his blacks which is seemingly needed so ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GAwy3rKyKg
Before this long fin gold from Hawaii the only golds I have in my fish room are from the darkest blacks !
Another buddy told me that they used golds in Israel [Danzinger Discus farms] as a blank slate to keep as healthy ram genes going while trying to create the black .
Hoping to add long fin here but who knows ?? Got to start somewhere huh ?

[Discluv]

Hey Tom!

Finally got a spawn with one dark ram and the golden. Im guessing the golden is the male and the dark the female or is it the other way around? I don't know.
They spawned on a flat rock that I added to the aquarium. You can tell from video the pair that are guarding eggs. Funny thing is I had just ordered some small pottery like you suggested with lids and a larger pot to zone off a spawning site for a pair. But, they thought the rock was just fine- lol!

I have a 10 gallon I just got today that I could either put this pair in or the eggs on rock. The only problem is, obviously, that it is not cycled. But, I do have experience with this being the case with discus on purchase in quarantine--just do daily water changes to offset no cycle. Not sure that would work with fry though?
I also dont have live brine shrimp but I have New Life Spectrum Grow Fry Starter. Would this work?
Thanks for the help. :)

https://vimeo.com/384089705?activityReferer=1

[coralbandit]

NICE !
I would move the pair and eggs .
End game we have no control whether they like it or not but they will get over it and spawn again .
This also will get the gold male out so next can step up and possibly you get dark pair .
Crush the food up as fie as you can ..I use golden pearls 100 micron and Kens 00 grow meal .
I do think BBS or live food is a big help if not necessary for first week though ..Hopefully the parents will hatch these guys out for you .
The parents will eat food and pass it through their gills for fry possibly ..Seen this and it is too cool !

You're all good with new 10g IMO .You seem to understand take whatever you can from big tank to help out ..
You will be doing water changes either way IMO with fry so as long as you get it no harm IMO..
I have never cycled a tank fishless. I learned the old school way and wish more people still did.
I think it is a primer to seeing if you are going to be a successful keeper and change water or watch your fish die wondering why !
I also have so many sponge filters I could drop 4 from cycled tanks in new tank without issue .

CONGRATULATIONS !!! Be patient .They are messed up just like the round fish and need to learn as they grow ..
Hoping my pair above get the third time right but if not they can try again .. They can keep the tank till I need to separate them from fry ??Until then I can wait ..

[Discluv]

Awesome! Okay, will get this tank set-up. I have alot of filtered media that can add to the filter.

I started out with fish-in cycles as well- have done so with discus a few times. It can be done safety, you just have little margin for error. Knowing that, you are very careful.
I just ordered some brine shrimp and shrimp hatchery from Brine Shrimp Direct. Never have done this before so Im looking at You tube videos.
Never have raised any fry of any type, in fact. So here goes nothing!

Thanks for the tips.

[LizStreithorst]

If you have any plants like Java moss or subwassertang put those in the tank. The fry will eat the microorganisms growing on them. I would never try RAISING Ram fry on other that live food. But I know nothing about Ram's.

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, it's the parents that eat the older lesser fry, not the older siblings doing it. I have never had a pair raise 2 batches at the same time, but I have heard of it happening. Good luck.

[coralbandit]

Ok same pair as on 12/31 here .This time they get to keep the eggs .
https://i.imgur.com/esxiVLPl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YfvC2o9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ByBxdj7l.jpg
^^ In the water ^^
https://i.imgur.com/G4QeXfcl.jpg
^ Out of water ^
Pretty good sized spawn .Definitely larger then the last one I took .
Mostly besides documenting the spawn that I suspect will be half dark and half gold , but also showing pictures so you all see the tank is far from sterile.
Good I dare say clean water but organics and tannins along with plants are in there ..Oh yea and the algae ..:eek:
Using some alder cones in with the darks to soothe them ?
This pair let me handle the eggs for the pictures no big deal and then even change a little water ...They befuddle me ?
Hope they do good these guys must have laid these yesterday while I was down south at DAAS [Danbury Area Aquarium Society] /NECA [ New England Cichlid Association ] auction ..
I have gone to a few before so it was kind of like meeting up with friends ! I got no active fish club here in the capital district of NY ..Crazy huh ? Had a good time even with the 2 1/2 hour drive each way !

[Discluv]

Tom

Still have some fry freeswimming this morning. They are mostly in the moss and occasionally swim about.
Will do another water change today and add catulpa leaves and alder cones.
I also heard about feeding very small amounts of egg yolk? Would this be a better option than the fry starter food ( powdered food)?
The brine shrimp eggs should be here Wednesday or Thursday.

I was unprepared for feeding the fry. I am surprised they have lasted this long.
I took the male gold out, he is temporarily in with the discus.

[coralbandit]

Yes try The egg yolk or anything .
The fry are all alone now ..The 10g may be big for them .If you lower the water level it helps them .Do you think the male was going to eat the fry ? I know it is hard to tell just by looking but we all have guess .
Make sure you install food close say the fry can find it .
Keeping the fry close to parents or close to food is the big trick in the beginning and why I even suggest small tanks. We all know small tanks really aren't easier to balance ..

[Discluv]

I wasnt sure If he would eat them or not.
Maybe I should have left him in there.
I was just so upset that he had killed that beautiful female. UGH!
Should I chance it and add him back now ? Maybe he will help them rather than eat them-lol!

I bought some of the breeding boxes to hang on aquarium for next spawn. Like the ones you have where you just put the spawn in and add moss and a bubbler. Will do this, definitely, on next go around.

I will lower the water level as you suggest.

[Second Hand Pat]

Tom, should I have feed the ram fry even before they went free swimming? I was not feeding them so maybe that was a mistake.
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

I admit I didn't watch the videos in your first post, having connected with you before, and kind otherwise following here. So your tank is not pristine and they're OK with that. I must have missed it somewhere, but will the fry prefer some moss-like plants? Right now I have stones, wood, and potted plants. Fairly easy to clean.

[Discluv]

I admit I didn't watch the videos in your first post, having connected with you before, and kind otherwise following here. So your tank is not pristine and they're OK with that. I must have missed it somewhere, but will the fry prefer some moss-like plants? Right now I have stones, wood, and potted plants. Fairly easy to clean.

With my fry-- the moss is where they primarily are.

[coralbandit]

I like plants or moss. Subwassertang is great for fry and in many of my tanks .
The tank is not pristine but the water cleaner then it looks IMO ..
I am a water change abuser ...Not scared and have full control over water ..
These fry don't eat from the parents ,they need all the help they can get via infusoria small other bugs and stuff..
Water needs to be clean but that does not mean wipe the tank down ..
Here is how they are being raised here ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUgYSwFp3BM
The music is no joke .
If you get it wrong you get right next time !
Liz you said the parents would eat the older fry with the discus I believe ..The older fry are missing I believe .. Shows the pair is still learning and confused ..
Just like you guys with the rams no advice can fix that ..That is time and dedication to get through it ..
The disc are still loaded with their new fry so a little progress has been had ..
I will guess depending how long they dedicate to the fry will dictate when next spawn is now ...

[coralbandit]

I wasnt sure If he would eat them or not.
Maybe I should have left him in there.
I was just so upset that he had killed that beautiful female. UGH!
Should I chance it and add him back now ? Maybe he will help them rather than eat them-lol!

I bought some of the breeding boxes to hang on aquarium for next spawn. Like the ones you have where you just put the spawn in and add moss and a bubbler. Will do this, definitely, on next go around.

I will lower the water level as you suggest.

Keep him separate . Without a mate you may not get a second chance ..Second chances are why I take first eggs ..That and viability.. I just got to know .If there is a second chance I am more allowing now then I used to be ..

[coralbandit]

Tom, should I have feed the ram fry even before they went free swimming? I was not feeding them so maybe that was a mistake.
Pat

NO Pat .I feed when the majority is swimming within first 24 hours .
They have egg sacs and nature is in control of their timing .The will be easy to note free swimming ..Not just a few shuffling but like a cloud .. You'll know ..
They are on auto pilot /cruise control until then ..It is a spectator sport .

[LizStreithorst]

I'm afraid that I won't be able to care for baby rams in a small container. How do you do water change on a tank that small without sucking those tiny kids up?

My pair in the 10 gallon has spawned again. This time I used Roobios tea instead of the humic acid. I have a much longer history of success with it than I had with the acid.

Tom, you say that you are a water changing demon. Do you do WC every day on your rams? How much water do you change at one time. How strong a pump to you use to pump the water in?

[coralbandit]

I have shrimp screens ,sponges that go over syphon pipes I have even used air stoned to keep from sucking fry up ..
I don't want to say you have to change water but I am an overfeeder [poor judge of more then that sometimes !] so I have to change water ..The dip and pours are best for just hatching and moving fry to tank at day 2-3 free swimming ..
I need to try the tea .. Right now since the darks are so aggressive a ouple of us are using alder cones with reasonable results .Now the results are completely anecdotal but most seem to be on that pleacebo high right now . I let the cloud in the video of the gold long fin and black speak anecdotally for the cones and or the pairs third spawn .They are farther then any other time ?
I change water like and old friend taught me .He said 'change as much as possible as often as possible ' ..I like to do 75-90% weekly and if I have time I will do it multiple times a week but think they are more important in grow out tanks then breeding tanks .
The water changes in breeding tanks is dependent on the feeding ..If they are conditioning or I am overfeeding fry I change water when I see reason ..I really don't test and kind of let my common sense and fish tell me ?
zany water change less then 60% is a waste of time IMO ..You have to remove what you put in but I question many smaller over one larger ? I like larger .
I have a temperature controlled hose so re filling my tap water tanks is easy .
I dump buckets into my 5 and 10 g fry tanks .I dump 1g buckets in the little betta tanks [they get the 75-90% wc no joke !] I add back the 90% temperature and TDS matched in about 10 seconds !
Its a tidal wave and then it is over .. I have a drip line to refill if I want to be gentle but besides eggs and very young fry it is not needed ..
https://i.imgur.com/SrwMGlfl.jpg

[LizStreithorst]

The reason I like the tea is that with my water, it allows the eggs to hatch. I can't figure out. It shouldn't work because the tea actually increases alkalinity, but it works on Discus and Angels and has since way back when I started using it. If you have an explanation do tell. Maybe it lowers kH. At any unit I sold my RO unit when the tea worked and I didn't have to waste water.

I know that I over feed, too. I try, but I just can't help it. I do 25% to 40% daily. I use a sump pump to fill the tanks but I crimp the hose so the water flow is slow when I do the ram tanks. I age heat my water for 24 hrs so I don't need any so fancy as a temperature controller.

How large a tank do you use to put the babies once they're old enough to leave the dip and pour?

[coralbandit]

Without parents they are clueless so the smaller the better .It helps them find food and again with monkey see monkey do if one eats the others can become interested. They don't need a lot of room the first month .They need food and clean water ..
I use the 12X6 and 18X6 betta tanks and then they can got to 5 ,10 or 20 g at 1-2 months depending on growth .

[LizStreithorst]

It they fail again this time, I may try pulling a spawn.

[coralbandit]

I like for my rams to do the work .It is way more cool to watch and gratifying but I breed rams on purpose so I take first eggs every time and then see how I am sitting time and tank wise .
2 years I would have told I always do a better job raising fry then the parents do.3 years ago or more I said if I di not artificially hatch I would not have any rams .. I don't know how the progression happens but for most artificially hatching is where it is at with rams .

[coralbandit]

My Santarems today
https://i.imgur.com/FoZIoXBl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sMnCBcil.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0RSzNfHl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vxpbBIHl.jpg
The 4 or 5 older fry are gone as Liz predicted …
These two get the gold star from me as they make notable improvements every time .

[danotaylor]

That's really cool Tom, congrats mate!!

[LizStreithorst]

The rest of the gang are correct. You won the prize. Congrats.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Daniel and Liz .
The fish are the prize ,or such exceptional fish are the prize ..
I excited with these two .I don't expect them to take this a whole lot farther but just have a feeling that no matter what they do they just keep getting better at it .
So if not this time we will enjoy all this fan fare again with high hopes .. I try to reassure people that without failure success what not be so sweet ..
These two are sweet already to me so success with these guys will be the cherry on top to me ! I got time ..These fish were 3 inches June 25 when they arrived in my fish room ..
I don't think these two are 1 year old max right now so they really could keep getting better for some time ..

[coralbandit]

So here they are today !
Without failure success never taste as sweet !
What's not to like about these two ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN6wPdSEPac


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEUzj_GbVZI

^^ Both just done today [minutes ago ]..^^
They seem to be doing pretty good --so far-- .. Mother nature will be directing this show though so ?
I like the --so far-- so I stole it from Amy ! You don't need to tell me but really where are these two at ?
When do they decide to accept they are married with children !
The second video I was more feeding the fry ? Not even sure what everyone does but here is my try ;
I mixed decaps and 100 micron golden pearls in a small cup of tank water and just showered it over the parents and thus the fry ..
Funny and why I did the second video is the first time I did this [this week with these two] it was easy to see their slime coat was thick enough for the decaps and GP to stick them ..It happened again all be it on purpose as I poured it right on them again ..It takes the 'trick training' I call it with rams right out of the picture [ this with the disc is easier].. They are feeding anyways on the parent so intentionally or not they are finding food and learning what it is .
Sooooo ?

I went to Discus Madness yesterday , a 3 hour one way drive but came back with nice young Dantumn angels both silver and Albino and saw some discus that have me mentioning my next trip already !
As in when I have room I will be going back for …
I hope everyone is having as good a weekend ..
Got few new hatches of rams also but have not documented them yet !

[Discluv]

I would love to breed my discus. The rams will give me confidence and Ill give it a try.
You have a beautiful pair there, Tom !

[coralbandit]

You will be easy street with disc .The part that is on you you seem right on point for .With ZERO success with discus I will boldly say they are easier then rams 10X . This is what I was told and how I learned ..The no fear for real part ..I passed the hard test ..
Years ago when I started a customer or poster some form said they raised 1 ram for every 100 discus ..They said right out they thought rams were that much harder .
I have stayed away from discus just because I am still really focused on rams and my swordtails .. This pair is just so much fun ..
Here's todays rams !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMz_ZoriiiY
They look good --so far-- [oh I really love that !].
Two words that say so much ! More on that later ..

[Discluv]

You will be easy street with disc .The part that is on you you seem right on point for .With ZERO success with discus I will boldly say they are easier then rams 10X . This is what I was told and how I learned ..The no fear for real part ..I passed the hard test ..
Years ago when I started a customer or poster some form said they raised 1 ram for every 100 discus ..They said right out they thought rams were that much harder .
I have stayed away from discus just because I am still really focused on rams and my swordtails .. This pair is just so much fun ..
Here's todays rams !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMz_ZoriiiY
They look good --so far-- [oh I really love that !].
Two words that say so much ! More on that later ..

Gorgeous!!
Well, I feel hopeful then!
I have a beautiful male Alenquer that is an F1 - (an adult) and 3 juvenile wild discus that am presently growing out. I hope to get a female from one of these 3 and breed them.

[danotaylor]

Awesome Tom, they look great! Parents seem to be doing a fine job and everyone is eating. All great signs of a positive outcome!! Thanks for being such an active poster hear, it fun to watch you up close from a distance, lol!

[LizStreithorst]

I really need to get some of those discs. I'll see if home depot has any when I go to the pet store for my Sterbais Tuesday.

[coralbandit]

Awesome Tom, they look great! Parents seem to be doing a fine job and everyone is eating. All great signs of a positive outcome!! Thanks for being such an active poster hear, it fun to watch you up close from a distance, lol!

Thanks Daniel ! Sometimes I wonder who cares or if people really want to see ,but I like you really enjoy watching how others go about their tanks ..
For me this is really documentation ..I am too lazy to keep log book so in my 55 year old attitude this is high tech fish keeping !:D

[coralbandit]

Ok so lots of bickering going on between the discus parents ..They are still together and there is a good chance they may be flighty due to the fry nipping on them constantly ..
The fry know what food is already but still are all over the parents ..They attached 8-9 days ago ..
Can I pull both parents or better the fry to a separate tank ? Not can I ,but is it advisable ?

[LizStreithorst]

I don't like to separate my kids from their parents for at least 2 weeks. But if you remove the pair (not the fry) the kids will do fine. If you think the fry are in danger of being eaten, I'd advise you to separate them.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Liz !
They are really nipping on each other more then just passing the kids back and fourth ..
So 2 weeks is 14 days starting at attachment correct.. That's their birthday by the time line I saw here ? I think that timeline had remove the female also and just leave dad ..Could that be how these fish need to be handled..
I don't see them killing each other but they do a good ' Tasmanian Devil ala Warner Bros ' impersonation ..
The female has nipped fins which she did not before .I thought at first the male may have been after fry but not seeing that --so far-- ..He is nipping her ..She nips back and starts it sometimes ..
Like I said they are staying together and this behavior is not every minute but it is showing on her .
The tank already has a divider in it so moving either will have no impact on the water they go to ..Same tank [60g 48X24 ] .The pair and fry have about 3/4 of the tank now ..

With rams this is a bad sign ..Not getting along after the fry are gone is more typical ..Fighting with fry usually ends up with no fry and maybe dead adult ..

[Mando]

Hey, Tom

How can I go about buying some rams? looking to add a few to my tanks.

[coralbandit]

Hey, Tom

How can I go about buying some rams? looking to add a few to my tanks.

Hey Armando shoot me an Email at coralbandit@aol.com .I got just about every color , would love to hook you up .

So yesterday the male Santarem got aggressive enough I decided to pull him . He was doing some pretty good damage to the females tail and although she was fighting back maybe even starting some of the squabbles she was not causing physical damage to him . That was what formed my decision to remove him and not her ..I am sure he had/has the fry in his best interest but he was abusive with his mannerism which left me feeling she was the better choice .
Ironically it is usually the female that causes the trouble and is removed with rams ..Maybe all anecdoctal but opposites ?
Thinking I got just over 20 fry that are eating whatever I offer now hanging with mom !:p

I saw sneaker fry in the blue alien betta tank today changing water ! Probably over 2 weeks old as it had the size of 2-4 week old ram fry or maybe a 1-2 week old swordtail ??
Either way feeling like a party is in store due to aliens !
On top of that I am uneducated on breeding as I never even took science past 9th grade ..No Bio !
But my last spawn of my darkest ram has me with 25% gold and the others dark ..This is different from the 50/50 that has been status quo ..My understanding is out of the 75% dark there is 25% DD and the other 50% are single D blacks …
First time since my first darks 9/11/18 to have any result other then 50/50 ..
Getting closer to locking it in ??

[RogueDiscus]

Hi Tom,
Your discus fry look great. I've been watching. Sometimes it seems like one of the parents is prodding the other to step it up. Hopefully the female is willing to take on the fry herself. If I think about it, I think I have probably more often removed the female first. But every pair is different. Like Liz said, they could get by without either parent at this point if necessary.

[coralbandit]

Hi Tom,
Your discus fry look great. I've been watching. Sometimes it seems like one of the parents is prodding the other to step it up. Hopefully the female is willing to take on the fry herself. If I think about it, I think I have probably more often removed the female first. But every pair is different. Like Liz said, they could get by without either parent at this point if necessary.

Thanks Steve ! You put me at ease some ..
I am thrilled with the fry but most concerned for the female honestly ..I would like to separate the fry from her so she can recoup but the way I see it every day with her is a big bonus so I am resisting for as long as I can ..
I watch the fry eat whatever I add ! Decaps ,golden pearls my kens grow meal 00 ! I am shocked but they are large fry from what I am used to ..
They may have even nibbled on blood worms I fed her today !
They are hanging around her more today then hanging on her so I like that ..

[RogueDiscus]

Thanks Steve ! You put me at ease some ..
I am thrilled with the fry but most concerned for the female honestly ..I would like to separate the fry from her so she can recoup but the way I see it every day with her is a big bonus so I am resisting for as long as I can ..
I watch the fry eat whatever I add ! Decaps ,golden pearls my kens grow meal 00 ! I am shocked but they are large fry from what I am used to ..
They may have even nibbled on blood worms I fed her today !
They are hanging around her more today then hanging on her so I like that ..

Yes, they are huge compared to the ram fry! Sounds great that they're eating all those foods. Were those live worms?

[coralbandit]

Were those live worms?
No frozen ..
Only live food I have is fresh hatched BBS daily ,they eat that also !

[RogueDiscus]

Ah, frozen bloodworms. I treat for most any fish. Once they figure out how to eat FDBW, I figure I can keep them happy.

[coralbandit]

I feed her the FDBW but I am not sure they figured them out but I am sure they will .
I really only feed my Kens grow meal ,golden pearls ,FDBW and frozen blood worms for the majority of the fish ..And of course BBS..

[coralbandit]

So if I listen correct I hit a hallmark with the dark rams ..
My experience at best has been 50/50 gold /dark.
Last spawn from my darkest pair has 25% gold and 75% dark !
If I get it then I have 25% D/D 50% D/d and 25% D/g ??
Pretty sure this is huge and leaves me one step from actually locking them ?
Today short tour .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzGSNYQnCNQ

[Second Hand Pat]

Tom, what does the D/g look like? Great vid and the discus fry look like. :D I have kept sterbai with my wild spawns in the past.
Pat

[coralbandit]

Hey Pat if I understand and did not mess up my letters I think the D/g is just gold . The D is because both its parents are dark .
I never bought any gold rams ..All I have besides my longfins from Tom in Hawaii came from my darkest rams with the very first 2 arriving 9/11/18 with 4 very darks ..My first real darks and gold in 1 year of breeding so I called them my F1.
I really don't think there is any value towards the dark from these golds ..They are golds from Dark rams but breed to each other you will get all gold from what I have seen..
There is something funny how the gold blends with GBR and EBR but does not with blacks ??

[LizStreithorst]

from what little I know about genetics I'd have to say you're right!

[coralbandit]

from what little I know about genetics I'd have to say you're right!

I kind of feel smarter today !:p

[coralbandit]

So yesterday I traded in my 3 male discus ,a Breeding pair of blue snakeskins and the last of my EBA !
I made a little tank space ..
So I got to move the newest fish into a more appropriate tank.
https://i.imgur.com/vgWxpi2l.jpg
The Silver and Albino Dantum angels were moved into the 65g the pair of disc had .
The angels were in a 40b since arriving last weekend so now I moved Dark and EBR rams into the 40.
That freed up my 29 in the wall[this is where it gets good] .
So with the 29 free I caught the Santarem fry and moved them to their own tank .
https://i.imgur.com/uGZQdQKl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/J1QI7TQl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xb0Vsenl.jpg
^^This is how you count them !^^ Think aprox.40 !
https://i.imgur.com/FqKPTJnl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Z1DP7MGl.jpg
I tossed in 5 Sterbai cories with them two help clean up and keep them moving around..
Hopefully I have half a clue what to do now with these guys ,they are my first .
The fry had really been hanging around mom and not on her so she seemed in pretty good shape .
I returned the male to the original side with the female and they both seem happy !
Hope every one is having a great weekend!:p

[LizStreithorst]

Excellent decision. Where did you get those Angels? They were imports, right? Albino Daltums are hard to find, expensive, and hard to breed. I understand that if you can get them to breed at all, they don't breed true. I might be mistaken, though.

[coralbandit]

Excellent decision. Where did you get those Angels? They were imports, right? Albino Daltums are hard to find, expensive, and hard to breed. I understand that if you can get them to breed at all, they don't breed true. I might be mistaken, though.

They breed true in my experience ..They come from DiscusMadness..I just went last weekend .I had a pair from 6 I got years ago and they were/are great ..I just sent them to buddy in Indiana as Christmas gift ..The body on the pair was the size of my palm ..
They breed and I raised 2 sets of fry ..They breed and we got wigglers probably almost 100 times ! No clue what was right in the beginning or wrong at the end ?I have a couple theories..
They are not cheap but cheaper if you buy small and grow them out yourself ! I came back with 10 silvers and 20 albinos ..I lost one silver last week but 1 out of 30 ain't bad ..
They are happy in the 65g and I can feed them everytime I walk by now ! These fish will be LARGE by the Fall ! Many of my buddies want these fish especially after I touch them so I knew to bring back more then I need or want ..
I really only need 4...The right 4 though …

DiscusMadness is a great store for me as they import these dantums and Black rams direct from Shahar Danzinger ...Not to mention a store full of eye candy few can even imagine ..3 hour one way drive but the trips keep getting closer together ..

Here's the pair I sent Pat nomming on FDBW ;
https://i.imgur.com/bHZXehal.jpg

[LizStreithorst]

Those are some huge Angels, Tom. I wish I could visit Discus Madness, but I can't. You are very lucky to have found an importer within driving distance who can cater to your desires.. You are also very lucky to have such good friends.

[coralbandit]

Day one in the 29 no losses and they eat whatever I know to offer !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyVZyAlV66I

I am still trying to wrap my head around having 40 discus ! I know this likely may be 2x the final count but ?
First group raised will be under my belt soon enough . The pair are so happy and amazingly calm together now ..
At first he danced for her and was all excited and then she bumped him once [like where you been ?] and he is all good !
They are just really relaxing and cruising the tank like I wanted ..I am sure they will be cleaning the cone soon but for now I really enjoy just seeing them relax ..
I feel I am just so lucky and know I am checking boxes like mad on many fish keepers bucket list ..
I will try to keep you all up on these guys ..I am kind of pumped !
A buddy of mine commented I have a few irons in the fire .. He is right ...I moved the alien betta pair to tank next door as I could clearly see 2 generations of fry !
May not be more then 10 maybe more ?? They are all new to me also ..I bred gouramis when you much younger but I have been in a ram kind of thing lately ..
I heard they are good practice for many other fish !:p

[LizStreithorst]

Remind me how old they are now. This thread is so full of posts about various types of fish that it's hard to scroll up until I find it. All this should be in a thread in the Discus section. I should be able to do that (I think) but I'm not a mod because of my ability with doing computerly things. If I were to guess, I'd say around two weeks or a little more.

What you will need to start doing at 3 weeks is start looking for them from a breeder's eye. Start looking for the ones starting to round up in the body The area of the mouth is always pointy in young fish. The body rounds out sooner. Start culling the smallest one first. Take your time deciding, but you only want to keep your best for yourself and to sell, right?

You are a great help to the few of us who want to breed our Rams. Of course we will help you along in your Discus journey. It's what friends do.

[coralbandit]

I am going to say the eggs were laid New years !
A convenient and close enough date ..
Clearly the runt has no place in a growing group of sellable fish but until he impedes on water quality or space I don't need to lose him yet ..
I never pass fish to others I would not pay for myself ..The least talked about part of my fish room is the freezer but it holds more then frozen food … It is different for keepers then breeders ..
I am no bleeding heart and surly know a less then 'perfect' fish has no value but first round here so I expect mistakes and errors to cull some for me maybe ?
That and there is a 65 g waiting for them when they need the room so ?
I found one dead fry in the 60g before I separated them from mom so nature is still in force even in my fish room ..
I appreciate and accept any tips offered ..Thanks !

[LizStreithorst]

You're right. Keep the group together until more space is needed. I should have known that you looked at all fish from a breeder's perspective.

[danotaylor]

Great job Tom. Very nicely done mate. Quite an achievement sir!

[LizStreithorst]

At what size do you plan to sell them?

[coralbandit]

You're right. Keep the group together until more space is needed. I should have known that you looked at all fish from a breeder's perspective.
I try to have fun .I bite my tongue too often about treating and keeping poor fish ..I desire the best or at least better and am willing to put effort in so .. I don't think the runt will ever catch up or even make it past being the first loss.
I like to see once or twice for myself without disregard to advice ..
I am just a first timer ...


Great job Tom. Very nicely done mate. Quite an achievement sir!
Thank you ..I am honestly caught off guard ..I know I am a decent ram breeder but all fish are different so I am excited about these ..
It thrills me to know I shared my first with the SD crew .

[Second Hand Pat]

Congrats on the discus fry Tom and they look great. While I understand you may wish to keep all for now I would suggest if one or more of your discus fry seem off or one starts to not eat then culling may be needed so it does not risk the rest of your crew.
Pat

[coralbandit]

I got my Eye on them ..I don't want any fish not in proper condition . This really wasn't planned but was recognized as a possibility ..
The fry seem well today and they ate many many times today ..
Did not take the parents long either … Eggs today !
They laid eggs starting right around noon and were done and admiring their work by 4pm !
I guess we will see if they got this down or not ? Here they go again !

[danotaylor]

You playing Barry Manilow or what Tom?

[LizStreithorst]

I wish you would wave your magic wand over me.

[coralbandit]

I wish you would wave your magic wand over me.

I have resided myself to believe I do in fact have magic water !
No joke … https://www.saratoga.com/things-to-do/parks-landmarks-nature/mineral-springs/
I know I make a little difference but probably not as much as I would have liked to think !

No Barry Manilow Daneil but I play just about everything else from that time !

I have found fish fit my fine line life style of being CDO [which is OCD with the letters in the right order :p] and being a life long procrastinator !
As long as I feed and change water waiting to see works ok for me !

[gunnerschh2]

Tom do you use straight tap water? I live on Long Island & have used straight tap for the last 40 years. I know I,m lucky the aquafier they use in Islip is ok as others on the island are not as good.

[coralbandit]

Tom do you use straight tap water? I live on Long Island & have used straight tap for the last 40 years. I know I,m lucky the aquafier they use in Islip is ok as others on the island are not as good.
Hey Harry !
I cut my water some with ro .
I have my baseline so basically go by TDS as it is the number that has the greatest change of all the parameters .
My baseline is
ph 7.6
KH 2-3
GH 9
TDS 350+
I believe if I even tried to go by pH/KH/GH I would be lost ..Those numbers barely shift at all after going through my RO unit , yet the TDS goes from 350+ to 17 ….

I just mix my tap with ro to get the TDS I want .
Rams want 100 and I think the discus spawn in 200 no problem ..
One of my other buddies on LI [Rich ] has 50 TDS from his tap !
Water is a funny thing ..

[coralbandit]

So eggs on 1/27 are attached fry today /yesterday ..I like using the first as their birthday for convenience .
That lets me have two spawns from the same parents on the first ! 1/1 and now 2/1 !
My phone is acting up or I would shoot a better video then my photo skills !
Eitherway :p
https://i.imgur.com/aa8o2Z8l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/q9wNMdzl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gd7vemgl.jpg
^^These are the newest !If I had to guess I'll say 60 -80 ? ^^
https://i.imgur.com/5d4RLvNl.jpg
^^These are the 1 month old fry eating their FDBWs like a good discus should .Even if the cube is as big as them ! They are dime sized now .

[LizStreithorst]

They look to excellent shape for their size. Well done.

[coralbandit]

Thank you Liz ..
I suspect this first batch may be spoiling me ?
I am thrilled with their growth so far .

[danotaylor]

That's awesome Tom! The second batch looks rather large, the parents are doing famously, must be your taste in fishroom music! ;):p

[coralbandit]

That's awesome Tom! The second batch looks rather large, the parents are doing famously, must be your taste in fishroom music! ;):p

Thanks Daniel ..I think I have caught pair dancing in-between carrying kids around ..

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, I need your advice again. My Dutch Blues just got through spawning. I've got everything I need.

When I saw the pair getting in the mood I put a media bag of Roobios tea in their tank. Without it, the shell of Discus and Angels are too hard to let the babies hatch out. I have tank water from the parents's tank in the container and was planning on adding Meth Blue but I don't know how it will interact with the tea. They say that the tea has antibacterial properties but "they" say lots of things and I don't know for myself. I'm thinking that this first time I'll just use the tea and leave the meth blue out. What do you think?

Also, do I set the air stone right beside the eggs or is a dip and pour a small enough container that just having it bubbling well into the container? If you say it should go right beside the eggs how slowly should it bubble. With Angels it's several bubbles per second.

[coralbandit]

Go with the tea .
I run heavy flow on other side of dip and pour until the eggs become wigglers.
Then I raise the air up in the container closer to surface and lower its volume/flow.
I crank pretty good with disposable air stones just on other side usually .
https://i.imgur.com/qg3X0pLl.jpg

[LizStreithorst]

Thank you so much. I was at a loss and hoped you would see this tonight so I wouldn't have to wing it. (I'd have done it wrong) I hope that my colorful Asian air stones will do the job because it's what I have. The bubbles they put out aren't that tiny. I'll go turn up the airstone right now and move the eggs to the dip and pour an hour later.

[coralbandit]

It's just about moving water .Big bubbles , little bubbles I don't think matter much ..
I move the bubbles right to the top when the wigglers start to swim ..

[LizStreithorst]

Got it!

[Discluv]

Tom, have you ever got hydra in your fry tanks? If so, is it a worry? How did you get rid of it?

[LizStreithorst]

I had them once but don't remember what I did to rid myself of them. They will eat tiny fry but once the fry are larger the hydra become food for them.

[coralbandit]

Hydra is often from overfeeding .
It is easily killed using fenbendazole /Pancur that you can find at box pet stores in the dog section .
Hydra would be an issue to the fry if they were younger IMO ,but now they are more a pest .
You want to kill them for sure .
1 gram [usually one packet ] mixed into 200 ml water makes the solution .
The 2 ml of the solution per gallon of tank volume .
One dose should do it if you catch it early .
This also works for planaria .

[Discluv]

I have fenbendazole, and I saw it recommended as a treatment; but, worried about the fry and exposure. In your experience fenbendazole was safe for fry at recommended dosage?
Should I be dialing back feeding? Is this an indication Im feeding fry too much?

[Discluv]

I had them once but don't remember what I did to rid myself of them. They will eat tiny fry but once the fry are larger the hydra become food for them.

Thanks Liz :)

[coralbandit]

I have only experienced hydra in my livebearer tanks and treatment never effected any fish .
IMO it is a sign of excess waste .Food turns to waste eaten or not .
I would think you could up your water changes maybe ??
Have you added new plants to tank ? Hydra don't just grow out of thin air they must be introduced ..
The feeding just amplifies their presence .

[Discluv]

I change 50% water everyday like clockwork, have not missed one day since the spawn was introduced on rock 24 days ago.
Ill dial back feeding to 3 times daily, I was doing 5.
I have added plants from my other tanks-- lots of them, Im sure thats how the hydra was introduced.

Edit! 24 days ago, not 2!

[coralbandit]

This is a discus forum right ? :p
Here's my herd ! 8 days free swimming/attached and eating whatever I throw at them !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj8IKgSxTHk

[LizStreithorst]

It looks like a good healthy herd, Tom.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Liz ..
Again fish making me look good ..:p
They do the important part ..
The older guys are 5 1/2 weeks old now and doing great for all I know !

[danotaylor]

Looking good Tom. The parents do seem to be jostling for poll parenting position. I saw the females nipped tail better in this video as well. Both seem intent on being the primary carer.
The previous batch look great as well mate, they have nice plump bellies and they're taking shape nicely!
You're accomplishing great things. Well don't mate!

[coralbandit]

Here are the newest Santarem fry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dLXKEGgpVc
The oldest ones [ 6 weeks now ] are in the middle of this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vw8i5VeYPA
Hope everyone is enjoying their fish !

[coralbandit]

Ok I went to a fish auction in Mass. last weekend and met some buddies and new friends .
One had donated 6 pretty nice 3 inch discus from their breeding for the club raffle .She bought my GBR.
In speaking with her she seemed very knowledgeable and I am sure I missed a ton but she said discus breed for one season and that is it !
Say it ain't so ? This can not be true .It makes no sense to me , she shot another quip after that I question also but on a different fish .It just didn't make fish sense to me ..
So I was schooled on rams that they shared a 16 week breeding season with a 8 week vacation and then back at it for 16 weeks just like discus ??
Surly some of you are on season 2 with your pair ..I have had rams breed for 3 years for me .

[LizStreithorst]

It ain't so.

[coralbandit]

It ain't so.

It made no sense to me ! Thank you ..In a world of insanity and ' fishy rumors/myths ' I hadn't even heard that one .. I am a pretty good person to outright decide whether I believe something or not but thought you guys knew for sure ..

So here are the 2 sets of discus I am raising .The oldest [1/1/20] and the newest [2/1/20] who are still with mum and pop !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD85_B881DY

[LizStreithorst]

They're doing fine. I did notice mama getting angry at one of her kids and taking a bite at it. It's time to give that pair their own home.

If you're just wanting to breed them to sell them and do it again, expect the best ones to be purchased first from local folks. If you're planning on making a project of this you will want to keep the largest and roundest as well as the same number of smaller but still round. Then let them grow, give them a hard look in a month and select again. Remember, it takes around a year for a discus to raise sexual maturity. Discus breeding is a very long term project.

[coralbandit]

I saw her take food right from a fries mouth when I watched the video . You know as soon as I separate them they will breed again don't you ? I mean I think I am willing to see them all not happy with each other before I separate !
The outright chasing towards the bottom of the tank is the parents after the cories !
The male suddenly decides they are the devil or something and chases them away like it matters !
I have left the divider up in the tank this whole time incase I have to move the fry so I could separate the pair but that really breaks my heart ?
That and the 7 week old fry will hav to go to the 65g so the younger fry can have the 29 ..I see a cycle thing here ..
I do not want to grow out discus just to sell in any way shape or form ! I have always wanted fry ASAP in my hands and tried to keep the fish I sell as long as possible as I feel I will grow them better ?
If others can't grow my discus at the size I sell them so be it . I am not looking to be a discus breeder of that scale ..Too many of them already ?
Me and rams , we got a thing going on .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWOTdt9Bovk

[danotaylor]

They look great Tom! You're doing an awesome job raising them. They're nice and plump but not fat, they should reach there shape and size potential as you continue as you are! Good job mate!

[coralbandit]

So I think I have some decent and different results with the pitch black rams from the last breeding's.
These breedings bring me closer to lock in the black .Here is what is different though .
The first batch 12/29/19 I lost most of but ended up with maybe 40 gold and black .I artificially hatched these guys since they were my newest pair .I did not know then who these guys were...
On 1/13/20 the same parents spawned again and as the fry grew I quickly realized a drastic change from before ! I got like 25% gold instead of 50/50 . When I realized that I separated the golds from the 40 I had in a dip and pour and gave each the black and gold their own tank . These two fish are growing at the same rate basically even though separated .
I am now however noticing with the younger group who is still with their gold siblings [only 25% of the herd] that the golds are larger .In compare to other fry the 1/13 blacks are on pace so the golds are just growing faster I guess ? They will be separated when they get moved I guess now ?
Painful as they are here are some pics of the 12/29/19 pitch blacks showing a real serious color coming on
https://i.imgur.com/0HFiR5Vl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pi1hhIDl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5Ilc0iel.jpg

[danotaylor]

Great job Tom. Those guys are REALLY black! By "locking in" do you mean creating a genetic line that produces 100% pure black fry? Is it the crossing back process that achieves that? So cool what you're sharing mate. Thank you!!

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not Tom, but that's what he does. He makes a strain more to his taste by selecting what he wants and breeding them together. It's way easier with rams than Discus because the kids reach sexual maturity so much sooner than Discus. It makes it easier to follow his progress. I love seeing what he does. He has an excellent eye.

[coralbandit]

So it has been forever since I posted on this thread ..
Rams are great and my Santarems are growing like discus should ..
I wanted to go to DiscusMadness today and actually had this trip planned for over a month .
I was only waiting to meet up with some buddies but you all should know why this did not happen today .
DM was open but you could not go in .They are either shipping or you can pick up at the door .
I don't mind getting fish through the mail for auctions and such bt when it comes to rams ,discus and some fish I need to see them to buy them .Not a picture but the fish I am going to choose .
So with all of NY going into shut down mode and only essential people even being able to go to work after tomorrow I still really wanted some discus .
Luckily my LFS just got a shipment of 20 @3 inches from Hans so I headed down there this am to see what they had .
Came home with 2 Diamond Blues that had some nice color , 2 German Wonders and I think 2 what they call Brilliant . I was thinking they were Leopards but not so sure now .
My LFS had all 20 in the same tank and I had to ID them off his purchase order and Hans site ! My LFS always just gets 2 of each so I took both and will hope for the best .I got 2 pair last time I got from him so ...
As of Friday I am 'essential' so will still be working [pretty safe up on a roof] but in case I get stuck home I can hang with my new guys .
https://i.imgur.com/yaO6i37l.jpg
^I think German Wonder ^
https://i.imgur.com/xx7zf3Zl.jpg
^ Bad shot of the Blue Diamond^
https://i.imgur.com/Ei0pBdHl.jpg
^ what I thought was Leopard but now leaning to Brilliant ?^
Not sure how these fish have hooked me ,maybe in my sleep but you got to be in it to win it and I play to win ..
None of them are perfect discus thanks to you guys and this site I saw some flaws right in the store like not a solid red ring around the eye of the Blue Diamond and such but they are good enough for my second go at growing out someone else discus .
Who doesn't love new fish ,especially when they all come from store credit ! I lefty with $24.74 on my gift card ..
I told them they need to order some rams !:p

[LizStreithorst]

You might be right, but I see the first and last being turks of different styles. The one in the first pics looks stressed. I like the blue diamond best of the bunch. But your pics are a little dark and I'm only seeing the fish from one angle.

Tom, you really need to go to a NADA. You will meet people who you think the same way you do about quality fish. Good luck with these. Be sure to QT well.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Liz . They are in their own 65g that I added a pair of rams to make them more comfy ..;)

[LizStreithorst]

Sounds good.

[coralbandit]

All my fish get their own tank ..Kind of a cheaters way to get more tanks and QT !
Hopefully I can a video of these guys tomorrow..Just throwing blood worms and FDBW at them as much as possible now .
I think they just arrived at LFS yesterday but I feel different about leaving fish in stores to see how healthy they are .
IMO they were there a day too long already ~!

[LizStreithorst]

I agree. Personally, I would buy from pics from a breeder or distributor before I would buy from my beloved LPS even though when I take them my reject Discus they care for them well. They say that I nitpick my fish about things that they would never have seen had I not pointed it out to them.

[danotaylor]

Nice one Tom, I'm sure you'll do great at raising them...the pair you raised are awesome!

[Acerrato]

I just compared the above pictures to my fish from Hans - The 1st fish is a Brilliant Blue Turq, 2nd obviously Blue Diamond, and the last pic are your German Wonders!

[coralbandit]

I just compared the above pictures to my fish from Hans - The 1st fish is a Brilliant Blue Turq, 2nd obviously Blue Diamond, and the last pic are your German Wonders!

Hah ! Thanks for correcting me ,you are right .
I appreciate it .

[LizStreithorst]

I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

[coralbandit]

Ok just need to document all the oldest Santarems have been shipped out today and the younger moved into the 29g.
Seems semi tight quarters but water changes will be super easy ..
Not 30 minutes after the fry were removed from the parents just after the tank had been refilled the parents were pecking and cleaning the breeding cone !
Neither has their vent exposed but both stayed right at it preparing for what I can only guess will be the next spawn.
I now believe I did good leaving the fry with them so long [2 months] just to give them a 'break' from slime sucking little ones ..
My bet with no tubes showing is there will be eggs by the weekend !
On a happy note my job finally got shut down today !:D
It could possibly just be this individual job but if not I sure won't be at a loss of what to do with my time !

[danotaylor]

Cool Tom, your Santeram pair are really crankin out the fry...ill bet your guess about the weekend is right on!
More time in the fish room, how awful for ya :p

[coralbandit]

Ok so fish breeding can officially be like horse shoes and hand grenades ! I mean close is good enough ? Being wrong can still be right ??
These fish would not even wait 24 hours after they children moved out ! Well maybe exactly 24 hours ..Do you think they wanted to make sure they weren't coming back ?
https://i.imgur.com/0r7uR6Zl.jpg
Here they are right now ..
I know I said by the weekend but even I did not suspect they were this frisky !

I am thinking of changing my name to 'luckybandit '?:p
Now I know I was right to leave the fry for so long or I would have dime sized fry already ! You can ware a fish out taking fry and driving their instincts to breed again and again and again ..I did not want to sound like when the fry were moved I knew they would breed right away but all indications told this would be the case.
Lets just say now that the next set of eggs after these will be the day after I remove these if they hatch and get raised ?
I mean these two have developed a seriously predictable pattern ...

So on a serious note /question ; no breeding tubes yesterday and no indication of wanting to spawn again before I moved the fry yesterday .
When did she develop the eggs ? Was she just holding them until the kids left ? I mean I am sure there will be many eggs as they have been in overfeeding central for the last 2 months ..I can't believe she had these ready to go ?

[LizStreithorst]

If she's been holding them for too long they won't hatch. The Angelfish people call it an egg dump.

As to what you said in the first paragraph, some Discus don't care if they have kids in the bedroom when they do it. Apparently, yours are more human like.

Good luck with the hatch. I bet you got lucky with the timing and the female was ready just before the kids left.

[danotaylor]

Incredible!

[coralbandit]

Egg dump huh ? I 'll count it as my learning for the day and say I think I deserve a beer after all the hard work !:p
But seriously funny you said she could hold them or timing ..
Lets remember for my simple mind I listed date of hatches for the first two as 1/1/20 & 2/1/20 so not really far off on the cycle today ?
Looks like I held them up a week maybe as laid date [today] hatch date are about 7-8 days apart ?
What happened to the ones that should have been laid last month { 3/1} I don't know ..They may have even laid them as food for the fry ?
It was a madhouse in there back then !
I am excited and hope they are good ..The male did his part and my 'magic' water was tuned into 170 TDS with my RO mix from the 350+ they had been in the last month ..
Find crossed !

[LizStreithorst]

I bet your TDS was too high and you weren't paying close enough attention. I have never had an egg dump myself I've heard Angelfish people say it. I didn't understand the situation so I was taking a stab it it. Your eggs will hatch just fine. Good luck with the fry, Tom.

[coralbandit]

Do you think she would not have laid eggs based on TDS alone ?
I knew my TDS was high I switched the fry to tap at 1 month like the rams ..
All my fry get raised in tap even if their parents need 'softer' water to get fertile eggs .
Usually 1-2 months depending on growth I switch them ..Tap is easier and conditions the fish for how other less enthusiastic keepers may try to keep them ..
My LFS owner and I have long thought my switching the rams at 1-2 months was part of what made them more hardy then others ..
When I asked Shahar Danziger how he did his rams water back in 2017 he echoed what I was already doing and then concurred his parameters to near identical to mine [tap and ro mix] .He used electro conductivity [EC ] while I use TDS but they can be converted for comparison ..He just reaffirmed my belief in my methods !

[LizStreithorst]

She would, but you weren't paying attention and they never free swam. That's my last best guess. I agree that your water with RO added works perfectly for you.

[coralbandit]

So nice to see the eggs made it through the first night !
I do have night lights that are always working in the fish room not just when I think they help .
Proud parents ..
https://i.imgur.com/1Hx2lPYl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/EcmeZU0l.jpg
Excited to be able to watch this again and keeping my fingers crossed the pair is really happy ..

The two month old in the 29g pretending to be piranha with their FDBW before water change
https://i.imgur.com/7mzDkJXl.jpg

And the 65g with the 6 new guys getting their morning fresh water .
https://i.imgur.com/dCiG52Al.jpg

[danotaylor]

Excellent Tom. The eggs look the goods too! The juvies look super plump & healthy...there's a lot of the little beggers as well! Good for you mate :thumbsup:

[coralbandit]

Well 24 hours in and the eggs look not so good ..:(
I am sure I was late in their cycle and actually still think a little more time for the pair to rest will do them well.
I do not expect to see any good eggs tomorrow ..
Makes me glad I said "if they hatch and get raised' in my other post ..
If not for the if I would feel I jinxed it making it sound like it was a sure thing ..
I always say to ram breeders to take the first eggs as the next eggs are not guaranteed ..
I'll just hope this is how it goes and they spawn again before going out of season and taking a 2 month break ? They really could be close to end of the 16 week cycle as I understand it ?
The overall size of the spawn was not as large as expected so maybe they were just making the best of the situation and not really prepared ?
There is always so much to speculate about when things go wrong ..You never need to know why if it works out it seems !

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, from what you said it should have been a sure thing. But as we both know they have their own take on when they should spawn. Take good care of them and they will have success.

[coralbandit]

They are good parents !
They cleared all the bad eggs.. I knew they would but did not expect them to leave any good [ I have seen this many times with rams ] .
They are good looking eggs and 2 happy fish this am ..
Although my job shut down I have been called into the shop today ..Hopefully they are honest and I will like often be working alone today ..
Funny remark I will save for another day about working alone .
Hope you are safe and happy today !;)

[coralbandit]

So Thursday the pair of Santarems ate the remaining 9 eggs .IMO that was for the better as a small spawn will use up time and effort for little reward..
New batch of eggs today with no excuses moving forward.. TDS is 180 and the pair seem to be tending the eggs like good parents ..Fins crossed on this one !

[coralbandit]

So Thursday the pair of Santarems ate the remaining 9 eggs .IMO that was for the better as a small spawn will use up time and effort for little reward..
New batch of eggs today with no excuses moving forward.. TDS is 180 and the pair seem to be tending the eggs like good parents ..Fins crossed on this one !
On a sad note [ like there are not enough lately ] Bill Withers passed last week from heart complications .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuKfiH0Scao

[coralbandit]

Well so much for cruise control with the Santarems ..
Again not the largest spawn all looked today though ..
Eaten by 5pm ! Maybe they were mad not to get attention ?
Today was packing day I didn't bother them one little bit ..
I will change their water and clean tank a little more and hope they get over missing their fry and start to make more ..
Shipped some of the first smallest fry today !
Here they are the other day before eggs ;
https://i.imgur.com/i7px3xgl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VZhjaXul.jpg
Here's the little guys the other day ;
https://i.imgur.com/RdEN20fl.jpg
Going to play the bandit fish room mantra for the discus like I do for the rams !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXW-sL5gzHQ

[LizStreithorst]

Let me know how your method works for you. I can always learn from an experienced breeder whether the experiment succeeds or not I can learn something. Paul Butler, my Discus friend and guru, agreed that the Rams are the canary in the coal mine. Rams are more sensitive to water conditions that even Discus are. The fact that my here said that confirmed that in his opinion I was right made me think that I am.

Lovely group of fry, BTW. They're just starting to show color. Love the straight bars. If they were mine I'd select a group of the 3 with the best shape and the 3 that develop the deeper red color. I can tell you why if you want to know. If I wasn't so devoted what I have, I'd buy a group of your guys for sure. Hope they do well for you.

[gunnerschh2]

Hey Tom, Great tune Gerry Rafferty.

[coralbandit]

Eggs again for the Santarems just 5 days after the last .
Just happened to have changed water and lightly wiped the tank down today so fins crossed they get it right this time ..
Your not having fun if you get your hopes up every time ?:p
This is their 3rd set since I separated them from the last juvis.
Eggs on 3/30 , 4/5 , 4/10 ...Sure would love to be watching them with fry again .

[LizStreithorst]

Not having fun? Just don't have high hopes. God only knows, you know you have gone through nothing so far. If they keep not doing right try to figure out why not and fix it as best you can. It's what I have done since I lost my "wet thumb". I wipe down and WC shouldn't bother a committed pair.

[coralbandit]

Here's where they are at today ;
https://i.imgur.com/C2TLWKfl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vSpKqpPl.jpg
Thinking if these don't work out I will lower the TDS even more .
I got them at 180 so I know it could be a lot lower .
https://i.imgur.com/Z8Uvnfol.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nA4bF1pl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FJEXWTOl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rKA4kaHl.jpg
Almost 10 weeks old ..:)

Here are the 'new guys'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFZtFvIp-Po

[coralbandit]

So eggs have been eaten and I have lowered the TDS..
This is three sets of eggs since the juvis have been removed to be eaten .
Considering placing a guard over the cone but think in honesty this has all been water related ?
Hopefully with much lower TDS [aprox 100 from 180] the eggs will be more fertile causing the parents less stress ?
I may take the TDS lower that was just the change made today with 2 changes. They pair are on a 5-6 day laying cycle .
13 of juvis left the fish room today on route to new homes ..
Sent rams and Alpha swordtails to Hawaii airport to airport today and have a possible customer interested in discus in Puerto Rico !
I have shipped to Hawaii ,Alaska ,the Virgin Islands and I think every state on the continent . P .R . would be cool and force me to ship international I think if I wanted to expand my territory anymore ?

[coralbandit]

So with a lower TDS I thought the discus were pulling my leg yesterday when I got home ..
There were eggs randomly scattered on the glass ! I stared in disbelief thinking what are these fish doing and then it hit me .
The eggs are from the 6 sterbai cory that share the tank with them ! I scraped them off the glass and got them in a Dip and Pour .
I have never hatched or raised cory so we will have to see how this goes ..
Today is 5 days since the last eggs were laid .I made another water change replacing even more with RO to get TDS around 50 ..
This is about as low as I want to go for now ,or atleast this leg of the journey .
Hoping to see some improvement ..

[LizStreithorst]

Cool! I can't wait until mine get old enough to start breeding.

[peewee1]

So with a lower TDS I thought the discus were pulling my leg yesterday when I got home ..
There were eggs randomly scattered on the glass ! I stared in disbelief thinking what are these fish doing and then it hit me .
The eggs are from the 6 sterbai cory that share the tank with them ! I scraped them off the glass and got them in a Dip and Pour .
I have never hatched or raised cory so we will have to see how this goes ..
Today is 5 days since the last eggs were laid .I made another water change replacing even more with RO to get TDS around 50 ..
This is about as low as I want to go for now ,or atleast this leg of the journey .
Hoping to see some improvement ..

Tom, other than water changes I pay little or no attention to anything else to do with the water chemistry. I read it here often so now I am curious. What is a TDS and and RO?

[Iminit]

Are you saying the Cory eggs ar3 5 days old? Last time I had Cory eggs they hatched between 48 and 72hrs. Bronze and panda Cory’s. Do the sterbai take longer to hatch?

[coralbandit]

Are you saying the Cory eggs ar3 5 days old? Last time I had Cory eggs they hatched between 48 and 72hrs. Bronze and panda Cory’s. Do the sterbai take longer to hatch?
No it has been 5 days since the last discus eggs [4/10] . The cory eggs were fresh yesterday ..I talk to Bobby who gave them to me .He hatches them like normal cory..He has a thread on it .


Tom, other than water changes I pay little or no attention to anything else to do with the water chemistry. I read it here often so now I am curious. What is a TDS and and RO?
I raise all my fish in my tap but often for fish that like 'soft ' water my tap does not work in breeding .
For my rams I mix my tap with Reverse Osmosis [RO] filtered water to lower my TDS..
Using measurements like pH and GH can be very deceiving and much harder to be consistent when making then TDS IMO.
My tap is 350 TDS [fairly hard in my opinion]. So I mix my tap and RO to get 100 for the rams ..
I am at about 50 now for the discus ..Seeing that the cory just reacted positively by laying eggs for the first time ever I am a little more hopeful the discus will be happier ..

[sipaboy]

Dimensions of your breeding tanks?

[coralbandit]

I am breeding the Santarem discus in a 60g frag tank .It is 48X24X12. The pair has spawned and raised fry twice in this tank .
I have the new discus in a 65g which is 36x18x25.
I breed the rams in 5 and 10g tanks !
I have many grow out tanks ranging from 20-55g along a few odd balls like an 80g or 33 long .

[sipaboy]

So breeding in a 5 gallon for the rams is ok? On your breeding tanks that are side by side,do you have a cardboard to block their view on their neighbor?

[coralbandit]

I place a divider between tanks that blocks the bottom half so they can have privacy while laying eggs and tending them but they see each other at feeding time or when swimming in the upper level.
I think the spirit of competition helps the pairs and they definitely get feisty when they see each other but no harm comes from it .
The 5 g works for pairs and actually helps the pair feel more comfortable with their fry as they never get that far away from the fry .

[sipaboy]

Another question is how long do you keep the parents with the frys? Thanks

[coralbandit]

Some won't raise any so I artificially hatch .
Others I can leave with fry for up to 4 weeks .
They don't need the parents once they know how to find and eat food on their own .

[LizStreithorst]

I place a divider between tanks that blocks the bottom half so they can have privacy while laying eggs and tending them but they see each other at feeding time or when swimming in the upper level.
I think the spirit of competition helps the pairs and they definitely get feisty when they see each other but no harm comes from it .
The 5 g works for pairs and actually helps the pair feel more comfortable with their fry as they never get that far away from the fry .

Dang Tom, You you never told me about the 5 gallon thing before. I want to try that with my Dutch guys. They sure are pretty fish. I'd love to get spawn from them but they never seen to want to get it on. I have partial dividers between their 10 gallon tanks, but I never see any action.

[coralbandit]

Eggs tonight from the Santarem discus ..7 days since last eggs were laid ..I can't imagine going much lower then 50 for TDS but I have heard of others going lower ..
Fins crossed on this batch .
I sure miss watching them with fry .
It is like art how they interact and raise fry .
Both this pair and their last fry ,now juvis really love the kens grow meal #3 which is great for me as it is plentiful and cheap ..
I have also been offering both the new food by Discus Siner Royal Menu also which they like .

[LizStreithorst]

Please don't go what I said in another thread about my water. I think your water was fine before. After all, pairs aren't fry machines. They may have wanted a short break.

[coralbandit]

Please don't go what I said in another thread about my water. I think your water was fine before. After all, pairs aren't fry machines. They may have wanted a short break.

I follow many and their experience but do what I think is right on my own like many ..:p
Discus eggs are still there with only 1 looking un fertile !
Better news is I woke to find my first eggs in my angel fish tank so I am thinking these are from my Albino Dantums !
Very excited about these but had nothing but trouble with eggs and fry after my last pair gave me two good spawns ?
Time will tell and advice is welcome as I know there are a few Albino Dantum keepers here ..

[coralbandit]

Well most of the cory eggs went to fungus .
I got 1 or 2 shooting around in the Dip and Pour so as soon as the EBR wigglers I have next door start to swim I will combine them .At least I hatched some . Not bad for a first timer ?:p
Discus eggs still look good less then 20 are white leaving maybe 80 that look fertile .Parents are doing a good job and the male is getting pushy so that seems normal and a good sign ?
The angel fish eggs are still looking good with maybe less then 20 looking white .They seem very small eggs in compare to all the other eggs in the fish room and from my experience so we will just keep watching and hoping ..Hope everyone is having a great week end !

[coralbandit]

So last night the discus decided to eat most of the eggs ? I will look into a mesh guard and then if that does not work I will start to learn about artificially hatching and raising . I would much rather watch the pair raise fry but they seem to have a thing for the eggs ?
A lot of the angel eggs look unfertile but some are showing signs of wiggling ! Considering how many angels are the one tank getting any laid and fertile is a major feet IMO so if I can separate a pair I expect better success. I will continue to try with what I have as I ran into issue at all stages with these before so practice is needed .

[Mid-MiDiscus]

Congrats - great thread

[coralbandit]

Congrats - great thread

Thanks Aaron !
I try to have fun and make a few fish along the way !

I got wigglers from the Dantum angels today ! If I get them past 2 weeks I will be thrilled !
The discus finished off what few eggs were left .I really think they eat them trying to get at the eggs that have fungus and just lose control or can't tell?
I do think placing a mesh guard will help but I would not put money on it ..
Had a first today ; shipped fish to Guam ! Who knew Guam was a US territory and the USPS delivers there ?

[coralbandit]

Ok I like to use my threads as a type of log to keep track of happenings ..
Eggs again in the Angel fish tank ! Again not sure who the parents are but there are only Albino Dantums ,Silver Dantums and true Altums so I will gladly take them regardless of whose they are !
They spawned on a breeding cone this time and there seems to be plenty [200+] !
There somewhere between 20-50 wigglers from the first spawn who should hopefully free swim before the weekend !:)
It has been 5 days since the discus laid eggs and even though they kept them for 2-3 days I expect eggs from them again by the weekend also..That is just a wild guess though so we will have to see?:confused:
Almost Friday ,hope everyone is getting through this crazy corona time and I would like everyone to stay on guard .. Let NY be the example of what thinking you are safe will get you ..We are not out of the woods yet people so everyone stay safe and smart regardless of what your state leaders say .

[LizStreithorst]

Any combination of the above strains should make you happy. At least if I were an Angelfish breeder they would make me happy.

I actually do live out in the woods, Tom. Still, I know that out here the virus is still circulating to a lesser degree than in NY. I'm doing my best to stay safe, nonetheless.

[coralbandit]

Update ,all of the latest angel eggs went bad .I am not real surprised as there are just too many in the tank for good breeding to take place in my imagination ? I have not seen the breeding yet so ?
While I am watching the few wigglers and these eggs go bad the Santarem pair snook in a set of eggs I guess 2 days ago ? They also seemed mostly bad or I caught them in the act of eating the good ones .
These guys moved forward so well and raised 2 sets with great attention yet they are lost in this egg game .
I will admit I didn't see them breed but the calendar says it could have been 2 days ago.If I had noticed I would have got a protector up but they laid eggs on the back of the cone .
They move them around the cone but I think they really tried to sneak this set in ,hiding them in the back from me ..
Big water changes all the way around today so ready to start over ..
I am having with drawl with the discus and angels ,but am catching some of the rams right on time !
Got a couple sets of EBR and black cross.
Here is one of my winter project results , black /EBR long fin cross !!!
https://i.imgur.com/Wip7YcFl.jpg
There are couple different color variations in this group but wow !
Pretty pleased with these two.
Here are some of my swordtails I will be sending out tomorrow .
The male is a LF Ruby Red with 2 red/black alphas and Ruby Red female .
https://i.imgur.com/9RJiYACl.jpg

[sipaboy]

So that ram pair is from a Ebr and black cross parents? Reason I ask is I somewhat just did that cross. I had an EBR male and female black cross/hybrid. Both long fin. I ask the breeder I got the rams from and she said I might get Ebr and Gbr looking fishes. Got 2 week old frys and notice around 20% of the frys seem a tad darker.l127523

[coralbandit]

So that ram pair is from a Ebr and black cross parents? Reason I ask is I somewhat just did that cross. I had an EBR male and female black cross/hybrid. Both long fin. I ask the breeder I got the rams from and she said I might get Ebr and Gbr looking fishes. Got 2 week old frys and notice around 20% of the frys seem a tad darker.l127523

Yea crossed the two ,I think only one parent was long fin.
With crosses every fish can be different and unique. I have other males that have no spot at all and a nice blue/black sheen .
You can usually see the fry that are dark early on ..
Nice looking fish you got there .

[coralbandit]

Today my Santarem Juvis are 3 months old . I have maybe 25 out of 80 left for sale and decided to keep 6 which I have placed in the 65g with the latest I got from Hans about a week ago .
When I got the last Hans guys they were all of 3 inches but my guys are catching up quick !
Here is one of my keepers ;
https://i.imgur.com/1EolXm3l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TtY1Y0tl.jpg
^^ 3 months free swimming today !^^
I am pretty proud of how well they have been growing for me ..

Here are the latest swordtails going to AquBid;
https://i.imgur.com/uSTqp2ml.jpg
^^ This group has red eyed long fin Ruby red male with two regular fin red eyed females and two sail fin females .
https://i.imgur.com/QvcjmPml.jpg
^^ this group has long fin ruby red male , sailfin female and two red black alphas ..^^

[LizStreithorst]

Do yu have any near adults of the swordtails in the last pic. If so, I must have some. If not, I want to see what you get when you cross the two types,

[danotaylor]

You did a fantastic job with the Santarem fry Tom, you should be proud!
Love the sword tails as well...fancy!

[coralbandit]

You did a fantastic job with the Santarem fry Tom, you should be proud!
Love the sword tails as well...fancy!
Thanks Dan . Raising discus has been a lot more fun then I ever thought it would be . I hope you are staying safe and doing well .


Do yu have any near adults of the swordtails in the last pic. If so, I must have some. If not, I want to see what you get when you cross the two types,
Liz the Ruby Red and the red/black Alpha gets you red/black Alphas and ruby reds ! Kind of a what you see is what you get !
They are the hottest and latest swordtails to hit the market but not real new .Just new to US mostly ..
https://ephieslivebearers.weebly.com/alpha-swordtails.html
^^ good link with info ^^
I got my first Alphas 2 years ago at a NECA auction in CT that were donated by the best breeder of Alphas on Long Island.
Now I have fresh Alpha stock that came from my Long fin Ruby Reds I got last fall. I have to admit I was surprised to see red /black Alpha fry come from 2 ruby reds .My only guess is that the female must have been holding sperm from another male [red/black Alpha] since all documentation says you need both colors of opposite sex to get the red/black alpha.
I am excited to have new blood and the long fins although they do not seem to breed true . There are not many of the long fins from the ruby reds or the cauliflower sabre swords but I am happy with what I have got so far ..Not near as many as I expected for the investment I made but it is all in fun really so it is good to me .I have some for you if you want .They are about 4-5 months old but the males are on the small side [no clue why ?] .
People go nuts for the long fins on Aquabid !

[coralbandit]

Tom, you are the most eloquent roofer I know.

^^I figured this was a good lead in to some work pictures ?^^
I know how to do most every roof there is but I specialize in metal standing seam and flat lock roofs .
Here are some pics from the job I just finished today .This I think is my fifth national historic landmark in just Saratoga I have worked on .I am honored to be allowed to work on jobs like this and take great pride in what I do..
This work was done on the Canfield casino in congress park Saratoga .The canfield casino has great history so again I am honored to be allowed to work on this building and become part of its history .
https://i.imgur.com/CSdyvFwl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/62Mrqjal.jpg (https://imgur.com/62Mrqja)
https://i.imgur.com/s7QZCXcl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WUNDPBZl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jlKopuYl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nI2CTp9l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cyAuPi0l.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3Evp5Q2l.jpg
Work like this and my fish will be my only legacy one day ..
I have told people before I am a craftsman and take my fish very seriously .
I put the same attention to detail and time into my fish as my work ,but they will not last as long after I am gone as my real job !
Last year I did the 1863 club at the Saratoga race track .They said it was the largest copper project on the east coast for the year !
Hope you enjoyed the pics as much as enjoyed working on the project .
Here is a quick internet pic of the 1863 club ;
http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=AwrJ4NaewbVeVZEA1BljCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZGRyNm1 yBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANkYTU1NzZjNTZkMDRkY2EwO TRhZGUyNjBkYzdmNzdhMARncG9zAzY4BGl0A2Jpbmc-/RV=2/RE=1588998686/RO=11/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.mlbind.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2018%2f10%2f01-24.jpg/RK=0/RS=UsSLR76z93lX8qv2isSkv_m3B.Y-

[RogueDiscus]

I was impressed with your fish work already, but wow! That's great. A specialty craftsman. My grandfather was a gold leaf specialist. I always thought that was pretty cool.

[two utes]

You are a true craftsman Tom....Very impressive work. Did you also fabricate the sphere?

Thanks for sharing

[coralbandit]

Thanks Steve and Joe .
Steve I really appreciate your fish comments .Some people never really get to see what overboard is like so I enjoy sharing !
Your comments and opinion on my fish is greatly appreciated . Your grandfather was a real craftsman when many were also artist . America doesn't even know what they're missing anymore .

Joe I wish I could say I spun the ball..I bought a lathe years ago specifically to try to make my own spheres. I never pursued it enough to get it right but know of one other near me who is fully capable .
He is second generation tin knocker and his father was one of NYs best.. The sphere came from down near Liz in Mo. They spin them on lathes and you need thicker copper to be able to spin it .
Copper comes in pounds per foot as the measure of thickness. Most roofs are 16 ounce copper meaning one pound per square foot. The roof we installed for the Casino is 20 ounce [1 & 1/4 lb.per SQF].
But the ball is a minimum of 32 ounce to be spun.
We did make the finial and I assembled it ..Just not the sphere ..

Like fish all roofs are not the same and some are more special and require a more detailed approach. Everyone on this forum should understand that ..

[danotaylor]

Masterful in every sense! Love your creativity Tom!

[coralbandit]

Thanks Dan . Creating and building is rewarding for me .

[Second Hand Pat]

Tom, beautiful man, you are so much more then "just a roofer". Much respect for both your fish work and your craft as a roofer.
Pat

[coralbandit]

Thanks Pat !

It is funny how we all have so many different professions but still share common ground with the fish .
I had the same experience when I went to the dog park always .People who would never have talked to me on the street became close friends just because of one common thing ..Dogs !
I am not a social butterfly and usually uncomfortable in crowds to say the least but when I am around others who I share interest with I always feel like I am at home .
For me that is something not easily achieved .
You should all know which of those two activities [ fish and copper work ] I enjoy the most and also which one pays better ..
Funny they are not the same ! It is not always about money thankfully ..
Thanks to all for the kind words they are much appreciated .
:p

On a fish note I have a nice batch of ram fry hovering around their Pitch Black mother and Gold Long finned father ! This excites me since I do not often have the same success when I have to work ..The fish demand a lot of time .
I also lost the angel fry from the dantums before but have a fresh batch of wigglers I think are from the albinos .
I watched the silver dantums lay eggs on the HOB intake tube and remain all the way to wigglers in a 65g tank with 20+ angels !:eek:
That is not what I expected at all .
The discus have laid eggs probably 6+ times now since I took the last group of juvis who are 3+ months old now but they just keep eating the eggs at different phases ..They are testing my patience but I do not know much I can do but learn how to artificially hatch ...I really enjoy watching the parents with fry so that will remain on the back burner and I will hope they " get it right next time ' !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCj-_TIGdw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_4T0czSPrg

[two utes]

Thanks Steve and Joe .
Steve I really appreciate your fish comments .Some people never really get to see what overboard is like so I enjoy sharing !
Your comments and opinion on my fish is greatly appreciated . Your grandfather was a real craftsman when many were also artist . America doesn't even know what they're missing anymore .

Joe I wish I could say I spun the ball..I bought a lathe years ago specifically to try to make my own spheres. I never pursued it enough to get it right but know of one other near me who is fully capable .
He is second generation tin knocker and his father was one of NYs best.. The sphere came from down near Liz in Mo. They spin them on lathes and you need thicker copper to be able to spin it .
Copper comes in pounds per foot as the measure of thickness. Most roofs are 16 ounce copper meaning one pound per square foot. The roof we installed for the Casino is 20 ounce [1 & 1/4 lb.per SQF].
But the ball is a minimum of 32 ounce to be spun.
We did make the finial and I assembled it ..Just not the sphere ..

Like fish all roofs are not the same and some are more special and require a more detailed approach. Everyone on this forum should understand that ..

Thanks again Tom.
I have engineering background and my favorite time was working the old mills and lathes. I watched them evolve and being run by computers...wasn't the same. Writing a programme at my desk to run them didnt cut it like turning the dials to make things happen....I'm sure you get it. Its good seeing that some crafts are still being used and hopefully passed on to future generations. Once again thanks for sharing your amazing craft......and no no roof is never the same ;)

[coralbandit]

The Santarems tried to sneak eggs in yesterday without me noticing ..
I quickly fashioned a rabbit wire cone protector so we will see if they can't eat them if they do better when the time comes ..
Both seem to be fine fanning the eggs now but they looked at the cage and me like we were criminals !

[LizStreithorst]

Tom, please forgive me for not responding to your roofing posts until now. I saw them right away but I was so impressed I was without words to express myself. I thought the words would have come, but they never have...You are one of an endangered breed, Tom. I've known very few true craftsmen in my life. Real craftsmen are gold.

[coralbandit]

You're all good Liz .I just thought you gave the perfect lead in and didn't want you to have ever regret saying something nice or good about me !
I like your last sentence but would remove the G !
Real craftsmen are old !! :p

The discus are still fanning the eggs .Like they have a choice with the cage up.
It seemed like the next step and the type of help I don't mind offering .
I really want to see the pair with fry again so fins crossed ..

[LizStreithorst]

Real craftsmen are old but they're gold as well. I've tried to teach good grooming techniques that help you get the best out of the dog, but all I've ever had was young people who learned the basics and then went on to open their own shops which never lasted long. If they'd been interested they'd have been taught how to put themselves in the position where they would have to turn customers away. They could have made top dollar for their work. It's not what they wanted. Has your experience with younger roofers been the same?

Oh...Good luck with the Discus spawn.

[coralbandit]

Many of the younger crowd love to do the metal but fail to learn it .
I admit I was not probably even good when I started ,but I stuck with it .
I like to refer back to bugs bunny cartoons ; the road runner and coyote and ACME.
The coyote always tried to build a better trap .You have to always try to improve on your methods and techniques .
That is what fish have in common with my trade.I was not good when I started..I needed lots of help and many ,many tries..
That is how you gain experience ..
We say if you didn't mess up anything ,you probably didn't do anything !
Back to ' Get it right next time ' !
You just have to keep trying with fish and other things that are difficult ..
One should never pass up a lesson from a more skilled person IMO.

[LizStreithorst]

It requires some stubbornness to keep trying when we want to get better. With my trade I drove many miles to continuing education seminars. I competed in grooming competitions. I wasn't near as good as I thought I was when I started, but my eyes were opened and the yearning to be better became my focus in life. I was never in the creme de la creme but I was pretty darned good. I only have a few customers that drive a good way to come to me. Just 2 Bichons and a Scotty. I make my main living "stacking and wacking" because that's what the owner wants. Even with those I try my best to enhance the expression or at least to give the dog a short but still attractive head. At least there is some satisfaction in that.

Is most of your worm humdrum? Surely your skills are in high demand.

[coralbandit]

The preparing to install is often dirty and tedious .Nobody sees the mass before it is finished ,or at least I don't take pictures of garbage around.
All the wood decking and rafters had to be replaced on the domes and it took as long as doing the copper .
Many jobs are not special but demand some skill or special process.90% of my company is union and they do much of the common and grunt work.
I get to finish and do the specialty stuff which is a welcome change after 25 years of doing it all ..I am not union which means I get the supplemental pay that would otherwise go to the union .That is good !
I will go now to solder on snow guards on little overhangs at a college ..900 of them placed every 16 inches !
That will be a couple weeks in a lift 30-40 feet up wire wheeling old dirty copper clean and then soldering on a new snow guard to keep the ice and snow from falling on people and their cars ..
I am actually looking forward to them also .I am all good working alone and life is repetition so this won't be so bad ..The pay is good which makes less miserable .
I am grateful to have learned and stuck with it .There are not many who really do what I do so I am appreciated most places I go ..

[coralbandit]

Slacker check in 'Lazy man style '....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TckvaYCJPk4
Loving summer in upstate NY !
My new fish ;
https://i.imgur.com/jP4P1CWl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sa64yfql.jpg
Not to shabby for a 13 year old Stingray !
Hope you all are enjoying summer !

[brewmaster15]

Slacker check in 'Lazy man style '....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TckvaYCJPk4
Loving summer in upstate NY !
My new fish ;
https://i.imgur.com/jP4P1CWl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sa64yfql.jpg
Not to shabby for a 13 year old Stingray !
Hope you all are enjoying summer !

Well the Roof work is amazing Tom, Thats just really nice stuff you get to work on. I am partial however to this New " fish "of Yours! SWEET RIDE!!!:)

al

[danotaylor]

Lol, good one!!
Your fish room is looking fantastic as well mate...every tank looks in pristine condition and all your fish are socialized well and so happy to see you even with the camera. Your santeram grow outs look amazing, and the fish from Hans getting big & are coming along beautifully as well. I love the bright swords too. You have great taste in fish Tom, and are a masterful hobbyist!
Blessings mate :thumbsup:

[peewee1]

Tom, your Chebby has a nice roof.

[coralbandit]

Tom, your Chebby has a nice roof.

That's funny because I have that license plate !
NICEROOF … It is convertible season and I luv going for rides ..

Thanks Al and Dan !
I hope you guys are enjoying the weather as much as possible .

[coralbandit]

Well my patience is always being tested by fish !
I am waiting for the discus to turn on again .
While waiting and watching my silver and albino dantum angels I spotted a pair laying eggs and watched the others eating them just as quick !
This was about two weeks ago and due to the pair having their breeding gear exposed I was able to catch them and give them their own tank[60g].
Finally after a year of grow out I have separated one pair ! On Thursday I found a pretty large spawn on a pot in the pairs tank and being the bandit had no hesitation..
I took the eggs and they look to be a good spawn, they are turning to wigglers as I type ! My buddy in Hawaii has been having great luck with the pearlscale albinos I sent him and is on 5 batches now so I am hoping to be able to catch up with him soon !
We will have to see though as my luck with these angels is less then stellar ..Fingers crossed ..

[danotaylor]

You have successfully overcome through your patience in the past Tom, you shall prevail and overcome here as well. I have never been much of a fan for angel's, but your albino dantums are really beautiful! Get em Bandit!! :thumbsup:

[dornblaser]

I just received 6 of Tom's rams and they are the nicest rams I have ever owned. The Gold ones are at a whole new level. 2 of the GBRs are about to breed! Thanks Tom.

[coralbandit]

You have successfully overcome through your patience in the past Tom, you shall prevail and overcome here as well. I have never been much of a fan for angel's, but your albino dantums are really beautiful! Get em Bandit!! :thumbsup:
I too am no fan of angels ! Something about the wild in these dantums make them desirable to me ? I do also have Altums and Leopoldi which are cool ,the Altums being cooler but the dantums are very unique and in my experience get huge like Altums should .

I just received 6 of Tom's rams and they are the nicest rams I have ever owned. The Gold ones are at a whole new level. 2 of the GBRs are about to breed! Thanks Tom.
Thanks David ! I hope you get to enjoy the rams for a long time .They should breed like crazy ..Now raising ram fry is another chapter in the ram ownership book ..

[above design]

Hello,

I also got some Rams from Tom a couple weeks ago. Purchased a pair of Blue Rams, Longfin Gold, and also a pair of Pitch Black Rams. They are all high quality and I'm very happy with them. The Longfin Golds are very cool, the Blue's are currently laying eggs, and the Pitch Black are unique and you really have to see them in person to appreciate how distinctive they look.

Thanks!

Mark

[peewee1]

Hello,

I also got some Rams from Tom a couple weeks ago. Purchased a pair of Blue Rams, Longfin Gold, and also a pair of Pitch Black Rams. They are all high quality and I'm very happy with them. The Longfin Golds are very cool, the Blue's are currently laying eggs, and the Pitch Black are unique and you really have to see them in person to appreciate how distinctive they look.

Thanks!

Mark

Can rams and discus live in the same tank?

[above design]

Can rams and discus live in the same tank?

Yes, as long as there are no more than 4 snakeheads present in a 10 gallon upright cylindrical tank ��

[Iminit]

^^^^lol lol yes that’s the next project! Rams Discus and snakeheads. Hey I saw on u tube it’s got to be true :). Peewee I have 6 of Toms Rams with my discus. Only problem with all there egg laying the discus still have no clue :rolleyes2:

[peewee1]

^^^^lol lol yes that’s the next project! Rams Discus and snakeheads. Hey I saw on u tube it’s got to be true :). Peewee I have 6 of Toms Rams with my discus. Only problem with all there egg laying the discus still have no clue :rolleyes2:

Are the ram fry a food source for the discus?

[Larry208]

Last week I got some rams from Tom, a pair of GBR's and a pair of PBR's and 12 juvies for various other tanks.
They are beautiful and stunning, went down to feed them and found that the pair of GBR's had free swimming fry in the tank.
Tom thank you again for some stunning beauties.
Larry