LFS heckels (again)

[daninthesand]

Hi everyone.

Well it is day 3 of my quarantine of the two LFS Heckel discus. They are supposed to be wild caught which I guess is likely for heckel's.

I've never owned wilds, definitely not heckels, and have never purchased adult discus before either.

I guess I was wondering if there was anything special or different I should do considering these are heckel and /or wilds an/or adult.

The reason I ask is they sure seem to be taking their time getting used to their new surroundings. So far they have not eaten yet. My other discus were eating the first day, and swimming around almost right away. But then again they were always from reputable breeders.

These heckels seem to be OK in that so far they are not turning black, but they get all pale and lose their stripes when i come near the tank.

Is this difference I'm noticing because they are wild, heckels, or adult? Or all THREE? Or should I wait longer to see how they do?

BTW I have them in the same type of water as I do for all my discus. pH around 7.5, temp 90, conductivity around 220 ms. in a 50 gal. bb tank with sponge filter on a powerhead. (Until I get a new air pump in the next few days)

I don't have acces to RO yet, but plan to soon.

Any advice you care to share based on your personal experience with heckels would be greatly appreciated.

Dan :)

[keno]

Some may not agree with me, but if indeed thay are wild caught I dont think they will like your ph at all, if it were me I would try to keep wild heckels under ph6.

Ken

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dan,
  Heckels can get used to pH like yours, I've kept mine in   7.6 . I believe  they are far happier in softer more acidic water. They show their colors better  in it as well. What was the pH   of where you got them?
  If you can filter thru peat it may be helpful as well. Iniatially I have found that wilds can be a little shy. It  depends I think on how long they have been in captivity. For alls you know thay may not have eaten in weeks.
 This is based on my  experiences, other  probably have other views.
Hth,
al
   Ps if you can  you might want to try live Brine shrimp.

Take this with a grain of salt since I just had some nasty hit my wild tank...but....the heckel I had in the wild tank is still doing wonderfully.  


Can I ask if you had the LFS feed the heckel to see if he was eating while he was there? And, did you have the LFS test the water for you that he was housed in there?  Did you find out how long they had been there and where they came from? (too many questions? ;D)

When I purchased my heckel about a year ago (my first wild purchase), he did "OK" in the water paramters of the wattley discus I had (6.8 pH).  He was initially housed with them.  When setting up a tank specifically for wilds, I targeted a lower pH (mid to upper 5's).  I noticed immediately after putting him into the wild tank, that he in particular did much better and looked much more comfortable at the lower pH.  Your temp seems warm enough for him.  As far as paling in and out goes...I don't know.  They will fade in and out sometimes according to their "moods".  Mine, when he would get aggressive, would have his bars blaze, especially when chasing another fish!  

What are you feeding?  Are you seeing any signs of HEX?

It did take him a few days to eat, but eventually bloodworms made him come around.  




Terri

[daninthesand]

Hi everyone. wow quick responses!

Ken, yes I've heard heckels prefer lower pH's. I've heard stories of them being bred by letting their Ph in the tank get down around 3 (yes 3) by not doing water changes. Then doing 50% water change with almost neutral "colder" water and bang! spawning was triggered. THIS IS HERESAY I KNOW, but it came from a reliable source... not even my opinion. I have no clue, really.

Al confirms this lower pH, but I don't have a pH meter at home and I have no experience with lowering it at all. I'll consider the peat thing. I'd like to stabilize the fish at my "normal water " parameters for now. Al, you seem to indicate its at least possible.... ???

As for all the questions... not too many at all ;) I guess I did not ask enough at the store, but I've dealt with this particular salesperson before (nobody else in the store at the time)and she's not that informative.

ph of the store water and feeding? Based on the condition of the other domestic smaller discus in the store they don't seem to care for their discus any differently than the other fish. The tank the fish had been in was being cleaned /drained and the tank the fish were housed in for two weeks (the arrival date of the heckels) was empty. I was told that *they had been with a community tank before it was drained. They had been in the tank I saw them in for two hours during cleaning, so it was pointless (imo) to measure that water. My guess is the Heckels were not cared for very well, they look kinda skinny, which points to poor feeding/care in general. *I threw in some frozen brine shrimp (at the store) but they did not eat. But that might have been stress from the recent move.

I did notice the dark stripe dissappear in the store, but as I walked around, it came back quickly. You're right, probably a mood thing.

Al, I have not tried live brine shrimp. Don't even think I can get it here :P But I have tried beefheart (don't think they touched it) and I threw in a couple of small (around an inch long) live red wigglers, which survived (alive) at the bottom of the tank for two days. So obviously they were left alone as well. It's difficult to observe these fish because every time I go near the tank they hide behind the filter and sit there. I've even tried putting a towel over the tank and peeking through a small hole but the little bu@@ers seem to know I'm there anyway!

As for signs of any disease, my experience with witnessing diseased fish is relatively low (good thing I guess), but all I can say is these fish are skinny (so YES Al, maybe they have not eaten since being in the store).

I would not say they're emaciated though, because I've seen way worse. Their fins are in good condition and when I moved them from the bucket to their new home (I do this with my hands, cleaned first of course ;)) I took a good look at both sides of the fish before letting them go. (Kinda neat how discus seem to "freeze" when you grab 'em that way) don't worry, I was VERY gentle :) I did not see anything obvious and they appeared to feel like they had "nomal" amount of slime.

That's about all I can say, other than they are in a new tank which is just starting to produce nitrite with a fishless cycle.

I'll keep an eye on things. It might take a couple more days to get them used to the new digs. We'll seehow it goes.

I'll continue to check this post from time to time today.
Thanks everyone... :) ;D

Now the good news! I'm expecting some new fish from Cary today! Woo Hoo! (I have another q tank waiting for them) Dave_C just e-mailed me to say they are in Mineapolis waiting for the next fight to Winnipeg.

Yeah!

PS. Maybe even better news. I'm going to look at three ~250 gallon tanks today that the owner wants to get rid of because they need more room.....includes bio filters hoods and all.  Now I know I'm crazy!

[brewmaster15]

Okay dan,
*Heres soemthing for you to try. *I have it from a very reliable source *that heckels *may be fond of insects in their *diet. *If you live in rural area it might be worth trying to leave the night light on and *catching some small insects. I haven't done this *with my heckels but I *do feed *my discus *tiny Meal worms, fruit flys, and ant larvae (when In season). * I teach a workshop *for kids and *science *and have a few write ups on  *insect cultures I'll put them in the *foods *section latter on.
*Hope this helps,
al

Ps *Try live black worms, *maybe Dave C can send you some?

[daninthesand]

Ha HA :)

Thanks Al. I'm afraid the insects catching is out.
It was -2 degress celcius last night, so not a lot of insects around. We are expecting a tent catapillar infestation soon, so maybe I'tt try that then.

But the CBW is a good idea. In fact Dave_c  and I were talking on the phone about that probably just as you typed your last post. I'm going to Dave's in about a half hour or so and we're going to the airport to get Cary's fish... ;D ;D ;D

And I'll likely get some CBW to try out too.

Thanks Al!

btw YOU are on my list of reliable sources.... :book: :thumbsup:

Dan

My experiences with heckles is very limited. I just got my first one 2 weeks ago, but he is doing great. He will not eat anything but live food right now, but in time he might change. My PH is around 6.2 - 6.4 and he seems very happy. He does not swim all around the tank much, he likes the spawning cone area and pretty much keep other fish away. But he does swim around from time to time. Then back to the cone and chase away the other fish.
Im sure your fish will settle in givin time. Think about all it has been thruogh just to get to your tank. Now with the proper care, good water and a little tlc, i would think he will start to eat.
You are a lucky man, getting some 250 gallon tanks. I would love a few, but i will not pay the money for a new one.
Let us know how it all turns out.
Take care and good luck, Matt

And to clarify, dan meant that his filter was starting to register nitrAtes, not nitrItes.  You should retest your tank water again dan and confirm that there are no nitrItes cus if there are that's going to cause the kind of behavior that you're seeing.

Dave

[Francisco_Borrero]

I have had my two heckels for about 10 months now. I started them in a 50gal breeder qt tank by themselves, but I never took them out of that tank, even beyond the intended 8 week qt. I keep them at 88F,7.0 pH and about 230ppm (unmanipulated aged tap-water). I am not sure how this variety of heckel is called, but it is the one that has a yellowish/orange background, with marroon/reddish horizontal squigle lines all over the body, and very dark brown/black vertical lines. The fifth bar is more than double the width of the rest. The head of the fish is almost orange. There is blue and red in all fin edges. One day I will post pictures....

They eat everything and anything I put in their tank !! I don't know their genders and have not yet seen reproductive activity. However they do everthing together and "seem to be a pair", regardless of their unknown gender. They came to me at less than 4" total length, and are now about 5"+. Thus, they are among my "medium" wild discus size-wise. When they came to me they were skinny and with terribly shredded fins all over, in fact, with that chain-saw look to all the edges. They ate avidly from day 1, but the chain-saw shredding of the fins took a long time to fully heal.

I am moving them to a new 65gal, and in the 50 I am placing 2 more wild heckels that are on hold for me at a friends place. They just arrived from Brazil, and are the blue type of heckels. They look like a royal blue, but with the heckel bars, and squigle lines kind of like in a snakeskin. The face is almost completely blue. These ones are larger (almost 6" total) and look ok but quite skinny. Listen to this: I will be paying U$ 40 each. I will be getting them this weekend (I hope) and begin a deworming process. Eventually they will go with the other heckels, unless I see pairing activity in either pair.

I will post pictures of all my fish soon. Cheers, Francisco.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Francisco,
 Congrats  on the new fish.  Now about the source  of them at that price.... Email me pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 better yet , don't I'm beyond maxed right now!, then again  please  do... you never know where a new tank will crop up! :)

take care,
al

[daninthesand]

Well...evreyone.

Here's the latest news. I've done some ldecent water changes (with Activated Charcoal filtered water) and have *the ammonia, nitrate and nitrite down to zero but my heckels are still not eating. They seem to be getting used to me hanging around watching them, but they still pretty much sit in the corner and rarely venture out. I watched them take in live small red wigglers and simply spit them out. It seems anything they take in their mouths immediately gets ptooied. *:P(they'll even rarely take in beefheart and spit that out too). Although I guess this IS encouraging that at least they will now try to eat, but I wonder if this fussiness is due to something *else.

I never did get around to getting CBW, but do you think it wold help? That is, if they don't like small red wigglers, do you think the'yll eat CBW?

I'm at the point of considering treating them for worms, but I don't have any evidence of that. They obviously don't poo at all since they are not eating. At least they are not turning black, but they still look pretty run down.

Do you think it might be worth considering (meds), or should I go ahead and treat them with salt for now?

Dan

Dan

If they were mine I wouldnt add any meds or salt at this point...youve only had em for 4 or 5 days right? IME thats not enough time to start to panic. Who knows what these fish have been through in the last month! They more than likely just need time to settle down and adjust to your water. And ya....you need to get them eating also....but dont panic there either. Ive had wilds that have gone up to three weeks in my tanks before they start eating. Definately try the black worms 90% of the time that'll get em going. I wouldnt start messing with the water either. Even though your conditions may not be "perfect"...They need stability right now. Something they probably havent had in a long while!

Tony

[daninthesand]

Thanks Ryan.

I guess I'm a little impatient since I've never had domestic discus take this long to acclimatize. Glad you told me they might take a while for wilds. Yes, it's true about the water. I've just made sure the water is sparkling clean and metabolite free. From now on I'll just leave it alone and test for ammonia etc. to see if it needs changeing.

I guess I should get some CBW. I have no excuse really since I can get some locally to try out. Just lazy and dumb I guess. I don't want to necessarily keep giving them CBW, but I guess you are right the do need to eat. to me they look like they might not have eaten for a while.....

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate you sharing your experince.

Dan

[Ryan]

Hmmmm... I think he meant Tony :) hehehehe

Ryan

[daninthesand]

Doh! :-[


So sorry Tony. (and Ryan) I sometimes lose sight of what I've just read and from who after reading so much stuff.

I'll try to be more carefull! ;) ;)

Dan

[Ryan]

LOL.. I wish it were me who had experience with wilds. Then maybe I could offer you some advice. Plus everyone knows that heckels are my DREAM fish (I like a lot of the tank-raised varieties too of course, but heckels are like the ultimate discus)... Maybe someday I'll be able to offer advice on them :) I should be getting some wild crosses next week, so that'll put me a few steps closer.

Ryan

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Dan
I know you probably have the heckels in quarintine, and I will probably get flamed for sugjesting this, but if it were me I would put another fish or two in with them that are good eaters.
I say this because a few years back this is what worked for me with some heckels that I was sure were going to starve to death.
Good Luck
Dennis

Actually Dennis....thats not a bad Idea at all....as long as you realize and accept the risk involved. It just might do the trick! Ive never tried it before....another use for a few runts maybe?

Tony

[daninthesand]

Tony and Dennis. Thanks

It's funny, but I was actually thinking that too. I have a runt or three that I will introduce into this tank eventually. If the heckels seem to really be having trouble much longer I'll consider it sooner. I'm afraid of what the heckels might do to these poor little runts though. The heckels are 5 inches or so but the runts are about the size of a nickel.....maybe thats what heckels like to eat ......hmmmmmm :(

anyway, i think the heckels might have started to come around. I threw some small live red wigglers in there and they picked at them a bit. I left them alone and came back about an hour later and the worms are gone. So they must have eaten them. Woo hooo! well, its a start. My optimism is growing. I'll throw a couple more in and see what happens. Patience....patience....

I'm keeping my fingers (and toes and eyes) crossed  .... ???

BTW. I can't belive how much these guys turn on and off their stripes! It's like a freakin light show. On off on off on off. geeze louise! enough already!

And Ryan. We all have our dream discus. Mine is about 12 inches across and black and white with a zebra pattern, swimming  with about thirty others in a 600 gallon tank in my basment    :o :o  sigh....

LOL  SERIOUSLY!

Dan

[darcy]

Dan....  i had basically the same problem when I first got my heckel!!  I had  two tanks side by side and what I did was feed them both on the same side.  At first it didn't really catch then when the heckel finally realized it could see other fish,it was always on the side watching the other's!!  then to my surprise he started eating when the other's would pick at their food!!  I don't know if this was a fluke or not but it worked for me!!
darcy

[daninthesand]

Darcy. Thanks

Just so I get this straight.... ???

You had two tanks side by side. One tank had the heckels and the other your established discus. Right?

This would simulate the throwing runts in, without actually exposing either tank to futher potential stress.

Brilliant! And so simple..... :D

Dan

Way to go

[darcy]

Yes that's what I did!!  I'm going to try it again in a week or so when my other heckels arrive and they are not wanting to eat also.  Hopefully they will eat on their own but if not same deal!!

darcy

[daninthesand]

Hello everyone.

I thought I'd give an update regarding my LFS rescue heckels. They're still alive! But not up to par IMO.

They've been in quarantine since May 22. About 10 days ago I introduced a small pair of runt discus I use for reverse quarantine and so far the little guys are doing fine. (they've actually GROWN, so much for GIH!)

The heckels have regularly been acceptng beefheart, albeit, reluctantly, and are starting to put on some meat! Boy they were skinny when I got them!

The problem is these two guys are still so very shy and sluggish. They always dissappear to the back of the tank ( My tanks have the narrow end facing forward to save room) when I come near to feed them. If I sit on the floor with just my head visible to them, they eventually come toward to the front and start eating, slowly.

I've fed them cut up redwigglers and even smaller ones (whole) and they eat those too but have never been agressive about eating anything. I would not say they are skittish though since when I clean the inside of the glass they don't freak out, but rather just hide in the corner untill I'm done.

The fish have improved somewhat, as they are definitely putting on weight and their colour is barely visible at times, or nonexistant. They are not black or dark at all, but rather, they seem always to be pale. Their poops appear normal enough.

They have been through a salt treatment at about 1 cup per 10 gallons.

I still think they are not right though. I'm wondering if this is all I can expect from these two and just be happy that they are putting on weight. Or will more time be necessary before they fully bloom?

I think they might need medication, but I'm not sure for what yet. I've heard that paleness tends to indicate internal problems (worms). There are no external lesions of any kind and their fins are always erect and do not show any fraying.

Any advice?

btw here are some details.

50 gal tank.
temp 90
still in salt right now (about day 7)
ph (don't have a meter, but probably around 7.4 to 7.8 based on my experience with my city water)
dim lighting
reverse quarantine fish are 1" and 1.5"
heckels are 5" and 6"
tds 220 to 250 ms
ammonia, nitrate and nitrite zero
water changes 30 % per day with aged water that has been run throgh AC filter.

Dan

[Francisco_Borrero]

Dan:
I am no expert, but am currently nuturing my second two-some of wild heckels gotten from LFS-like situations, and in very rough shape. My experience was not unlike what you describe:
1- mines took a few days to feel at ease, cowering at back at first. The more hiding places there are (such as tanks on-end), the more they will hide.
2- Both two-somes started eating right away (lucky me), because I received them with a tank ready to receive them at 90F
3- Both two-somes were very pale for a good long while. The new ones have only been with me 1 week. The other pair has been 8 months and each day that passes I see one (or more) blue dots or stripes on them, and more red on edges. I bet they will continue to color.
4- Yours have been in for less than one month. I wouldn't have had the "runts" introduced yet, but you said everything seems fine.
5- You indicate nitrate is 0 in your tank. This is highly unlikely, even inmediately after a large water change. There is always some unless in pure RO, and even then.
Your nitrate level is probably OK, just not 0.

Keep up the good work. They will reward you.
Cheers, Francisco.

[daninthesand]

Thanks Francisco.

So it has been 8 months for your first pair. WOW. And they continue to increase their colour. So what you are telling me is that they are still shy in general after 8 months? And their overall colour, is it at all colourful? Mine are basically washed out completely. How much are your heckels eating? Do they ever look full with nice round bellies? Mine never do, no matter how much food they get. They just don't eat that much. Unlike my other fish.

I put the runts in because I felt that if the heckels had worms or something it would show in the runts. If I lose the runts because of it, then so be it. Not very nice for the runts, but at least I'd have more clue about what is going on. Yes, you are right it was too early, but i need to sort this out hopefully sooner than later because I only have so much tank space and other fish are growing.

I might move the heckels to a 30 and move my "getting to be overcrowded fish" to the 50. I simply have too many fish partway through their quarantine and am running out of room. Once everyone is done quarantine I can start moving fish around.

And you are right, the nitrates are not zero, but very low. Every time I mention my nitrates are not zero I get a lot of comments.... ;)

Dan

[Francisco_Borrero]

No. I mis-stated the status of my fish.
The new ones (1 week), are very pale, but starting to get better. A little shy but not too bad. They are very skinny but eat everything I put in. I have not seen them with a fat belly, and probably won't until I clean them of various worms. I am currently doing prazi (2nd day and no worms yet); I will do 2 rounds.
The old ones (8 months), very colorful, but continue to get better. This is probably due to the new foods I am using, and their growing as they are not fully developed. Not shy at all, and although are in a tank by themselves, probably will prove to be less assertive than some browns, blues or greens. These fish came to me very skinny and have improved very much, gaining a lot in heft, but still are not as hefty as a couple of browns I have.
I hope this helps. Cheers, Francisco.

[daninthesand]

Thanks Francisco.

It helps a lot to clear up things...

I think i might give it another week or so, see how the heckels and reverse quarantine fish do and then maybe try deworming as well.

Did you deworm or otherwise medicate our first pair of heckels? IE the ones you say are doing well.....

Dan

[daninthesand]

Yeah. This picture is real late. Found it among other slides I had lying around. Shows what a little TLC can do to very skinny emmaciated fish from LFS. I think she's a female. But the male (I hope) is doing well as well. Here you see her in with the rest of 'em begging for food. Not a picky eater anymore!. Just thought I should post it. Better late than never!

[darcy]

looking good Dan!! Those fish look exactly like mine!! It is amazinf what a little tlc will do eh?
darcy

[dirk50merc]

Dan,
I have recently gotten 6 Heckles about 3.5" size. They took a tremendous amount of time to acclimate to my tank as well. I am keeping them at 87' and soft water with low PH 6.4, I have also added peet to my canister seems to help. The wilds seem more sensitive to water conditions.

After a week or so they became incredibly active, these fish seem spunkier then many domestics I have raised. They willingly accept a variety of foods.
Be pattient Heckles are great looking fish in their fully glory.

I anticipate mine will need a new home soon, the 65 tank I started them in isn't going to cut it for long. Plans for a 180 w/ 6 turqs or 6 PBs- (any thoughts from anyone?) It will be a fully planted tank w lots of structure. I plan on using this tank to establish pairs.

Enjoy, Dirk

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Dirk,
Good for you. I currently have 21 Heckels that I growing. I hope to include them in my breeding program in the future. Post pics.

dan

[Spices]

Dan,

:o Those are some lovely looking Heckels!!! :o ;)

I wish you success at a spawn. I hear it is difficult for some folks to spawn them, but others are successful at having a spawn of Heckels. *Angie*

[dirk50merc]

Dan, Nice fish hope mine color up that nice. Are you planning on pairing these fish up with other strains?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Dirk,
Yes, I opted for juveniles because they tend to get accoustomed to captivity better and hope they will pair up with domestics.

dan

[Salvaje]

Dan,

Nice looking heckels you have there!
Are these Rio Negro?

Pam

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Pam,
Not sure where they came from. I got them from the LFS.

dan

[BGTW]

Since they are in QT try some live tubifex. Priority is to get them to eat. You can clean them out later. Jim Quarles used to do that, so can you.

[wild_heckel]

I just setup a 4x2x2 tank and hoping to get wild heckels in a couple of months time. I like to know if it's better to get 3 inches fish than a full grown one? Will it be easier to acclimatise smaller ones?