Tapeworm experience by Brewmaster15

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,
I recently bought enough praziquantel to treat all my fish in the fishroom. I have not done this before, except when I first get the fish in or if they are sick. I was interested to see how many of my fish had tapeworms or other worms they would pass. 12-24 hours latter out of about 30 adults and many more fry I was surprised to only have one adult female pass worms. This one surprised me because she's passed 6 large tape worms so far, and is still passing them. Though I know this single case doesn't prove anything--- I've always believed tape worms would take away from spawning activity, this female spawns weekly! Interestingly I got her less than a year ago and she did not pass any worms in quaranteen with treatment
.....



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These are the directions that came with my Praziquantel....
Prazi.... an effective and safe med for the treatment of gill and body flukes, tape worms, and other cestodes and tremotodes in ornamental aquarium fish. May be effeective against capillaria when administered in the food.
Bath.... 100mg/10 gal (1/4 tsp/20 gal)
allow meds to remain in the tank for 48 hours. Mechanical filter may be running- no carbon or other chemical media. On the third day begin daily water changes of 10 to 30% for the next 5 days. On the 7th day repeat the entire process. On day 14 a third treatment may begin. This would be prudent for tanks with gravel substrate , and no undergravel filter..
Fast bath.... 1/2 tsp  /10 gal prazi to a small medical tank. Insert affected fish for 2.5 hours
Food.... Mix 1/2 tsp prazi to 1/4lb food. Typically used is beefheart or beefliver ground in a blender and frozen for future use. 2-3 feedings every other day should be sufficient.
prep in water , it doesn't go in well, shake or mix vigorously. In acetone , mix 3 parts acetone to one part prazi, then pour chalky substance over the tank water... be careful as it too much acetone will cause oxygen depletion....use only pure acetone.

Most people seem to use warm water , I used it with the Acetone and had no probelm. I used just enough acetone to make it slushy, then add water to the container. If you use acetone - don't mix it in plastic only glass!!! OH, I also did long term baths (whole tank treatments) 2x for bare glass, and 3x for planted tank.

[Bill_P.]

Brew

how the heck do you come up with all these Awesome Illistrated Discus Post

[Carol_Roberts]

Like a lot of us here I'd been told for years that discus didn't get tape worms.

After seeing Al's pictures and reading testimony from many of the regulars I bought some prazi and used it on my discus. I waited the twelve hours and then sat in front of the tanks waiting for the worm show to begin.

My discus are from three different sources and I did not see a single worm of any kind.  While we know for a fact that discus DO get tape worms, they may not be that common.  (I wish TeddyJ could see your pictures, Al.)
Carol  *H*  

[brewmaster15]

Carol,
* Because of their  lifecycle I would have though it *not possible myself, and in the past even expressed that belief. *Out of all my fish, only one had them. I think it is probably not that *common, but until we find the intermediate *host, its hard to say...

I'm guessing here, but I *think some day that host will be found *out to be a common *copepod *in our tanks.

take care,
al

Bill- I/m addicted *to alot of *things besides fish and homebrew... photography and photoshop are part of my *job, and my passion ;D

[daninthesand]

Hi every one. I'm new to this forum. Ryan S told me about it on GLD forum. Thanks Ryan!

I know this post is a little old, but I only just read it now.

Regarding tapeworms....This may not apply to discus  exactly but I'll tell you what I know about tapeworms. A tapeworm is a parasite. Duh! A successful parasite is one that can live in it's host without killing it or otherwise harming it. When a parasite finds its way into the wrong host, and kills it, well then the parasite has done a dumb thing right?! The parasite dies. This is just basic biology. So it's no surprise that Al's discus was able to thrive and breed despite harboring  the tapeworm. This might just by an example of a well suited parasite/host relationship.

If you know your fish have tapeworms then so be it, get rid of them with treatment, but who knows what lives inside our fish?As long as the fish is healthy be happy right!

Just my opinion. ;)

Dan

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

Welcome to the discus lover's home away from home.  It's always great to meet new discus folks.

As far as parasites go - what you say is true to a point.  The problem is that parasites weaken the fish.  This makes them more likely to contract diseases or less able to fight off infection.  Tapeworms don't follow the logic of - If I kill my host, I die.  They just consume as much as they can and have offspring to do the same thing.  They are very good at this and consequently your fish may get very infested and very weak.

Plus they can cause obstructions and other problems.

Al is the expert here, but I'd say the fish are MUCH better off without the worms!

John

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dan ,
 Welcome to the board!   :)

In some ways what you are saying is true...  IN NATURE. A tank is a closed, Unnatural  environment  though where parasites can quickly reach  numbers that can harm, or kill a  fish. I can tell you from experience that  Gill flukes a very successful parasite  can easily cause the death of many  discus Fry. Hexamita, a protozoan  parasite  along with Capillaria( a nematodal parasite) are  probably  responsible  for more discus deaths than  any other factor except water  quality in a hobbyist tank(IMO).
  Tape worms by their life cycle usuallly will not cause a  direct  death, but they open the fish to infection at the site of where their mouths attach. They compete with the fish for nutrients and take up "space" decreasing the useable Digestive area( Imagine how much space  6  each 6-11 inch worms  would take  up in the intestines of a medium size discus.
  One other note to consider as well. ... The   parasite-host  relationship you mentioned really doesn't deal  with Individuals. Its based  on populations.  In many cases the host is  killed either directly  or indirectly(infections, nutritional, etc.). But the relationship is deemed a successful  one  from the parasites point of view as  long as the death of the host  comes slow enough to allow for the parasite to reproduce sufficiently  to allow its species to survive. In the case of the tape worm, that would  be long enough  for the worm to reproduce  by its  Gravid -egg filled Proglottids  breaking off and being passed with feces out for another host to inadvertently ingest and perpetuate the life cycle.
 Hope this helps ,
al

[daninthesand]

Al and John.

Helps a great deal! I certainly would prefer to live without a tapeworm hanging around in my gut. I get weak just thinking about it eeeew :P

I really like this forum. I hope to learn a lot here! So far I've learned a great deal! Thanks everyone!

Hi Al,

I find it interesting that your discus passed no tapeworms during your initial Q period, but passed one now. Curious though as to: do you feed blackworms?

Mat  ;D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mat,
I found it amazing too, but that was the first time I ever used prazi-- a  drug which is specific for tapeworms. Since then I have  added it my QT  procedure.  

  As for the blackworms  ...you know I feed them.

If you remember the first time I reported this experience was  Jims forum, in march...
http://pub5.ezboard.com/fhobbyfrm7.showMessage?topicID=992.topic

what is really amazing to me  is out of all my fish, Only one fish  had tape worms. I have over 100 discus, with at least 30-50 adults at any given time. Incidentally I feed  blackworms  every other day to the adults and daily  to the fry under 2 inches.  Since that time in march I have treated   the fish 2  additional times with prazi and  still no  tape worms.

 since that  fish was  relatively new to me and was bought as a  pair, and always kept separate I can only guess it had them  before I got  them.  Ironically its tank mate , never  had one either.  I bought this pair  from a local  breeder, and don't believe he fed anything live.

  Sorry this doesn't fit  your theory Mat, but keep trying ;) :)

take care,
al

[Discusgeo]

Boy Al, you and your tapeworms. Darn ugliest thing I ever saw. Thank goodness mine never had them. It's almost time for me to do the Prazi thing again. I will wait until the summer is over.
George

[Ocastro]

Well this is what i found in my Male, i'm start using Metronizadole or something like that, any suggestions?

[Ocastro]

Another pic......

[Ocastro]

And the size....

Wow..nice pic..that's gotta itch. And to think..no hands to reach around and scratch it.

[brewmaster15]

Hi ocastro,
That looks like worm to me, but the real key is if its segmented, look at it under a magnifying glass. If its segmented its a tapeworm, if not then probably a round worm.
For tape worms -- praziquantel availible from vets as Droncit, or email Barry @ billman@citynet.net You can also get it online but its expensive

read these posts....
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1028

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1031

if its not tapeworm.... then a general dewormer like panacur in the food is best ...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1138

or you can use flubendazole , avbailible at Jehmco.com and put this into the food...


Metronidazole will not have any effect on worms though.

hth,
al

[Aquatic_Design]

Al,
After reading this post I decided to use prazi on all of my discus. All came up clean except for one (out of 40). This was one of a pair that I purchased less then a year ago.
The discus has already passed six very long tapeworms and three days later is still passing worms. I found another four in the tank and it was still passing a few more. Would you repeat the prazi treatment? If so when?
Thanks,
Donna

[brewmaster15]

Hi Donna,
Tape worms pose no immediate threat to a fish, they do little physical damage, except for where they attach. The damage is basically a long term drain of nutrients from the fish. Because of this Fish can live with them for years.

I would treat again one week from the last , and I would treat all fish. 2-3 treatments are usually reccommended if there is any substrate. I have been doing 2 in the bare tanks.

HTH,
al

Al,
Dang you take some very interesting pictures. and this information is very useful.

Thanks
Miles

[Gipper]

In regards to the tape worms can the fish reinfest themselves by consuming the tape worm once it is passed? I have a few I am treating with prazi for gill flukes and one has passed a tape worm (pics in another post). I have been watching carefully and trying to get them out asap, however a few times the fish have beat me to them. Does the prazi kill the tape worm or just make them evacuate the fish?

Gipper

[brewmaster15]

Hi Gipper,

The long answer....
http://www.shinpoong.co.kr/tdc/Schistosomiasis/Praziquantel.htm..."Upon exposure to praziquantel, flatworms rapidly contract their musculature. Praziquantel seems to produce a non-selective increase in permeability of the muscle cells of the parasites to divalent, cations such as Ca++. The increase in permeability results in an elevation of Ca++ within muscle cells which apparently triggers to contract. Morphologically, praziquantel causes vacuolization of the syncytial distal tegument. At first, the vacuole is small but begins to enlarge to form grossly recognizable bullae. These Processes can be observed in flukes or tapeworms, both in vivo and in vitro. In general, larger and more prolonged dosages of praziquantel are needed to kill parasites with thicker syncytial tegument.
The tegumental vacuoles finally burst leading the parasites to death. The predilection sites where vacuoles appear after the praziquantel treatment are different by parasites. For example, in Clonorchis sinensis the sensory papillae around the oral sucker are firstly affected whereas in Hymenolepis nana, the vacuoles appear mostly at neck region. In schistosomes, the vacuoles are confined to numerous small areas scattered all over the surface of the parasites. Other secondary effects are reduction of the incentration of endogenous glycogen, decrease in the release of lactate."

the short answer.... Prazi kills the tapeworms :)

As to the life cycle of Tapeworms ~99% require a secondary host to come along and eat those segments and eggs that they contain. That secondaery host in often an arthropod (copepods often) or mollusk (snail often). Then the fish eats these and gets the tapeworms. I have only seen one reference to a tapeworm that could directly reinfest a host directly, Hymenolepis nana (http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ceb/Diagnosis/volume4.htm )
Please note though that this tape is very small..2.5 - 4cm long, whereas most of those we seem to see in discus are much much larger larger!

Hope this helps....
-al

[Discus_KC]

Al,

Thanks for the info. I have a curiousity that has been driving me nuts lately. I have a fairly big group of adults that should be sexually mature but are not spawning.

I have Prazi and Flubendazole on it's way. I am anxious to treat all my fish and will be very curious to see the results.

I will keep you posted on what comes out of this ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;

Jack

[beta]

Hi all,
I want to give treatment for discus in a 35 gallon bare bottom tank.

How much should the dosage be?

Is the medicine light/temperature sensitive?

After how much time should i change the water?

What should i feed the discus during the course of treatment?

Will it affect the biological filtration in the Tank?

Thanks & Regards

Beta

[brewmaster15]

Hi beta,
These are the directions that came with my Praziquantel....
Prazi.... an effective and safe med for the treatment of gill and body flukes, tape worms, and other cestodes and tremotodes in ornamental aquarium fish. May be effeective against capillaria when administered in the food.
Bath.... 100mg/10 gal (1/4 tsp/20 gal)
allow meds to remain in the tank for 48 hours. Mechanical filter may be running- no carbon or other chemical media. On the third day begin daily water changes of 10 to 30% for the next 5 days. On the 7th day repeat the entire process. On day 14 a third treatment may begin. This would be prudent for tanks with gravel substrate , and no undergravel filter..
Fast bath.... 1/2 tsp /10 gal prazi to a small medical tank. Insert affected fish for 2.5 hours
Food.... Mix 1/2 tsp prazi to 1/4lb food. Typically used is beefheart or beefliver ground in a blender and frozen for future use. 2-3 feedings every other day should be sufficient.
prep in water , it doesn't go in well, shake or mix vigorously. In acetone , mix 3 parts acetone to one part prazi, then pour chalky substance over the tank water... be careful as it too much acetone will cause oxygen depletion....use only pure acetone.

Most people seem to use warm water , I used it with the Acetone and had no probelm. I used just enough acetone to make it slushy, then add water to the container. If you use acetone - don't mix it in plastic only glass!!! OH, I also did long term baths (whole tank treatments) 2x for bare glass, and 3x for planted tank.


hth,
al

[Discusgeo]

Brewmaters I hope you don't mind but I borrowed a picture or two to show and tell.
Thanks
George

[brewmaster15]

Hi George,
I do not mind at all... If I post it, It was meant to be shared! ;D

take care,
al

[Gnome]

Hi,
do anyone know where to buy praziquantel,
Cause I think my discus got tapeworm.

[brewmaster15]

email barry at billman@citynet.net

he sells it at a good price.

hth,
al

[Gnome]

email barry at billman@citynet.net

he sells it at a good price.

hth,
al


Thanks al,
I will email him right away, btw
what's acetone for? is it the praziquantel contains acetone or do I have to buy that too?
Thank you.
Gnome.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Gnome,
The acetone is a solvent that is often used to get the prazi to go into solution. Its not necessary though. You can mix the prazi with Ro water or distilled water and it will work well also.

hth,
al

I have tried both acetone and ro water and I like the RO the best. It seems that when I break Berry Illmans prazi down with acetone it re solidifies when I dump it in the tank and clumps up on the bottom. I mixed some prazi up with RO water in the blender... I had a little float on the top but in time all went into solution. This never happened with Droncit from the vet. Maybe its just some other type of filler or binder... Both ways still worked.


Mike

[Joao]

Hi,

Just wonder, my retailer doesn,t carry Prazi. but he has something like Discus cure , and Discus worm, is that ok for tapeworms or other intestinal problems? Because I have some of my fish excrementig white feces,they look a litle bit slimy , and some like transparent, but I'm not shure from wich fish, so I'm going to treat all the fish , and some of my fish didn't grow much in two months, they allmost the same size, and I do 10 % wc every day, one of the small fish does not have a round body, as a pointy face, maybe because is a two inche fish (blood pigeon)

Thanks,

[brewmaster15]

hi,
For prazi... try Barry...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=7750

email him at billman@citynet.net

you also can try to deworm with panacur... get it from your vet...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=1138

hth,
al

[Joao]

Hi,

Well, I bought "DISCO-WORM" wich is for flukes ( I don't know what is?), capillaria (same?), gill worms, tapeworms and copepods (?).
I put one capsule in two onces beefhart mixed, but they don't eat beefheart, maybe because was my first time giving it. So I put two capsules in the water , I'm following the instructions, another two capsules in two days and another in the 5th day, and says to repeat the treatment in 30 days.
It has been w/ podwer for one day and a half, and the biggest fish is expeling some worms all white, I don't see any segments, so is this HEX. or is TAPEWORMS, but he has one stuck in his organ, and was more out a cuople hours ago, now it has gone more inside. I'm feeding the fish, as usual, and doing a 10% WC. with regular salt. I'm sorry, the worm has segments, I just saw the fish under the light and could see better.
So is everthing I'm doing correct???????

I'd like some help on this matter, THANKS.

My fish is like the one on the picture from Brewmaster records.

Joao ???

[brewmaster15]

Hi,

Sounds like you are doing everything fine. It takes time for them to pass worms.(doesn't sound like hex to me)
Took hours for the fish in this post to pass its worms.


Stay the course and you should be fine.



hth,
al

[Joao]

Thanks
Brewmaster

[Joao]

The worm is going back inside the fish, was 1/2" out now after 3hours is almost inside , is this normal???????/ ???

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hmmm, Are there other fish in that tank? If it was a tapeworm they break at the segments. If not, any kind of worms can be dinner for other fish in the tank.

-al

[Joao]

Thanks Brew.

Yes , they are 7 in 65 gal.

Butt I'm out of home for 10 hours, what should I do?

What about the worm that was out , and now is going inside again????????

Joao

[brewmaster15]

I'm out of home for 10 hours, what should I do?

What about the worm that was out , and now is going inside again????????
I think the worm that you are referring to got nibbled by the others in the tank. The medicine in that discoworm is levamisole ..I think? If those worms are being passed because of it.... They are dead, and won't harm the discus if they are eaten.

hth,
al

[Joao]

Al, it says here 400 mg capsules of Di n Butyl Stannate.
Sounds diferent from what you said.
I putting aquarium salt as well ,and feeding the fish normally, is that ok.

Thanks Al

Joao

[brewmaster15]

right med name, wrong medicine :-[

be patient, and finish the treatemnt per the instructions and take it from there.

It sounds like all is working as it should.

-al

[Joao]

THANKS Al,

Goodnight.

See you

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
How are things today?

-al

[Joao]

As I thought,

The smallest one is passing worms, that's why he(she????) was not groing, and the big one the same, today I put to more capsules as instructions, and I can see the resultes right away, some worms comming out.

Now, I learned that the fish that were looking great, had problems too. So we MUST quarentine the new fishes, even if they look great.
They are very shy, maybe because my sun is allways around , with lots a movements, so they keep going to the corner when they scare, plus w/ this treatment, and the maintenance, they tend to run away, but I understand that.

I hope they clean, and get in regular basis, I need one more treatment, two days more, it says in the (Discoworm) that I should do another treatment in 30 days, I don't know, but since I got the medicine I"ll do it.

Thank's Al, you been a great help to me , and to rest of the club as I can see, you must been w/ Discus for a long time hem, Thank you in portuguese we say( OBRIGADO ) my friend ( MEU AMIGO) that's it for the lesson today....... take care.

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Any time MEU AMIGO :)
-al

[Joao]

Hi, friends
After 3 weeks of treatment with "disco-worm"for tapeworms, I come to the results...
My fish pass lots of worms, very thin segmented white worms, I think all dead, but very insteresting one of the young blood pigeon is excrementig huge white worms, they are more thiker then the tapeworms, is this the same worms or diferent, they look like cotton segments, and some parts bigger than the others, but very thick, I don't know how can the fish do it. Do you know what is ???
The fish got more shy, and they not eating the flakes, usually they ran for it, now they don't eat it, bloodworms is the only thing it makes them to came to the front, and some tetra bits.
I don't have anything in the tank , just bare bottom, do you think I should have something for them to hide instead having them hiding in the corner of the tank all the time.
Thanks friends.

And I'd like to thank Brewmaster for the great help in this subject, thank you.

Joao de Sa

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
That sounds like a bacterial infection, sometimes called Dropsy... It s also possible that the fish is just excreting intestinal lining and wormeggs/worms... possible nematodes.
how long has the fish been doing this? is is white or yellowish?

-al

[Joao]

Hi Al, thanks

Well, is completly white, as I said is like a cotton stuff in a worm form, I think is only this fish is doing that, because the others they pass tapeworms, like the one in the picture you post, do you know where I can find pictures of what you said, so I can compare to those, I have no digital camera to take pictures, sorry. This fish has been doing passing this kind a worms two or three week's ago, after I started the treatment , but I finish that a week ago, and today I found again a big 1 1/2 inch of that worm still attached to the fish, he has been passing small white feces like cotton but thick, and today I got scared with that thing, it looks the all interior of the fish is coming out ??????? very strange, I do the w/c every day, .

Thanks

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
can you take that fish out of the tank and put it in a hospitol tank? If so try doing that and treating the fish with epsom salt... 1 tablespoon/ 10 gal water and continue with the dewormer.. also.... cehck your LFS... see if you have access to any medications like oxytetracycline, minocycline, kanamycin, or erythromycin.,,,, just see if any are availible, you may not need them.

-al

[Joao]

Al, what's LFS. Should I put only that fish or the others that look skinny and too small, wich I suposed is not normal their size? I really don't have an hospital tank, I can setup my 35 gal for that in the garage, but will take a lots of trouble for me. How long they sould be there, this salt is fizzy, where do I buy it, normal pet store, why you sugested those medications, to treat or prevent, do you think I'm in a big trouble?????/

thanks Al.

Joao

[Joao]

One more thing Al, I'm going to repeat the treatment in 3 more weeks, it's in the instructions.

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
Okay.. You can actually use the epsom salt in your main tank... Epsom salt is sold at drug stores/pharmacies.. Its also know as magnesium sulfate. Its a laxative when added to the fish tank.

LFS== Local Fish store, or petshop, aquarium supply shop.


the antibiotics I list are incase this does not clear up with epsom and deworming. The fish in question may have a bacterial infection. At this point just look to see what is availible for anitibiotics in your area. If you write them down, then I will know better what to suggest if this problem continues.

hth,
al

[Joao]

Tanks Al,
I'll do that, so the salt is one tsp per 5 gal, for how long?

Joao

[brewmaster15]

1 table / 10 gal water. Maintain that concentration for 2-3 days, and see what happens.

-al

[Joao]

Thank's Al.
By the way, I saw your web page, excelent, keep up w/ good working.

Joao

[Joao]

Hi Al,

Ok, I add the salt today, so should I feed them or not ?, I leave it for two days allright, should I remove the charcoal, that particulary fish still excrementing white feces.
Talk to you later , tanks Al.

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
yes you can feed them, and always remove charcoal when treating with anything.

-al

[Joao]

Hi Al,

Thank you, I think more you learn more you want to know, specially with discus.
After the salt treatment, I have to do a water change, usually I do 10% should I do more this time?

Another question I have, I put this question on a topic but nobody answer me, one of the adults is chasing the other adult, is this normal?, because the other one it shows the full stripes in his body every time the other do that, and stays like that for a long time with a closed fins as well, should I consider that a normal behavior, or I have to do something about it.
Well this question is to anyone that can answer to this matter, I see lots a guests see the comments, and don't answer, well this is not a private conversation, it afects all of us, and we should report our experiences and results to better understand Discus, that way we know we are doing the right thing, I don't mind to help anyone w/ any subject that I know to prevent the mistakes, w/ Discus is very important, because we are dealing w/ lives, they are small but they deserve to live in a good conditions, they didn't choose to live in your tank as a slaves, bad nutrition, bad water... That's our problem, if we want to keep Discus we have have proper conditions for that, and get as much imformation as possible.... RIGHT !!!

Thank you friends.

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
First let me suggest that you try to increase your water changes to a daily 30-50-% , at least until the fish are better. Why? you may ask... There are many reasons but the easiest is to Think of it this way....If there are 100 parasites in your tank.... you remove 50% with a 50% water change... that means the fish only has to fight off half as many critters. Now if the parasite takes sevreal days to reproduce... daily water changes can really cut down on their numbers.

as for the second question... Every day many people log on to this site as guests and members. many of them Know alot about fish, and others do not. Many read the posts and are just afraid to try to answer a question because they don't want to look bad if its a wrong answer, Some have probably been criticised on other fish sites for these things. What it all comes down to is very few people actually Post to a question, and often the ones that do are the same core group. I hope to one day see that change as People learn that this site values all their experiences, and wants them to post their collective knowledge... It takes time though.
Try not to let it bother you if you post a question and it gets little response. For the most part I think you will find that many will help...Though sometimes you may need to ask a particularly individual for help that has demonstrated a willingness to help with that kind of a question. If all this fails.. Theres always the moderators and admin of this site to ask! :)

take care,
al

[Joao]

Yes Al, I know that, was only to make the readears aware, to not be shy...

Sorry, but the second question was about the fish chasing th e other one, most of the time. Please if you could go back to my question, and let me now if is that normal, you know better than me, ofcourse.

Al , thanks a lot.

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
Discus belong to the cichlid group and as such they cn be aggressive. Chasing each other around and claiming territory is normal behavior . :) It is usally minimized in tanks with more than 4 Discus in it. It can be a sign that There is a pair forming and the victim of the chase is not wanted around. It could also result from the victim being the naturally shy, timid, or smaller fish.

does that help?
-al

[Joao]

Those two are the big guys there, 4" each, the others between two , two and half. I have seven alltoghether, but that one only bytes the one w/ the same size, the fish is most of the time w/ closed fins and the vertical lines very dark.
Thanks

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Sounds like its territorial to me.. In time it may settle down. About the only thing you can do is put a screen divider between the two to let the stressed on recover. Then remove the divider. Sometimes That will work.

-al

[Joao]

Hi Al,

I have a problem w/ the fish that is chasing the other one, today I saw part of his fins missing, you know the fins are long , but it has the fins short w/ a kind of lining hanging in each fin. What should I do isolate the bad guy, how he's going to learn to not byte. So now I see why the other one has his body w/ dark stripes all the time.
Do I have to treat that fish? how is going to recovery his fins to normal, I see other small fish w/ short fins but it's cured already, I don't see any redish stuff like in the other one .
Please , tell me what to do, or if someone know how to solve this problem, I would appreciate.

Thanks

Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
the fish may heal on its own, but if you want to help.... place it in a hospitol tank, and dose the the tank with regular salt at a rate of 1 tablespoon/ 1 gal. This will help it heal, and prevent an opportunistic fungus. It may also protect against some bacteria.

hth,
al

[Joao]

Hi Al, how you doing,

Al, I'm doing second treatment with discoworm, I put two capsules in the tank twice, and tomorow is the last two, but one of my blue diamond discu die, first the pigeon had that thick white feces like small eggs, they looked like cotton, some like 1' long some small, then the blue was passing that, I could see is belly distorsed, maybe w/ worms, but it was so thick like 1/8" for a small fish of 2 1/2", I found him on the bottom w/ his nose down touching the glass, what a strange position, tkat's normal that ???????
The ohter pigeon still alive but the dorsal fins look like fryed , missing some part of it, closed fins. Now I don't see no more worms, but the fish, small ones keep hiding behind the filter and the heater, is that because of the treatment?

Now BIG QUESTION?

Should I put the other two capsules in the water, and finish the treatment, or I'm going to kill more fish, Well I think the other die because it couldn't expell the worms, maybe too many or too thick????????

Another problem, the city guys working in the water pipes, all the water look like rusty w/ sediments, I don't have water filter's like R/O, what you sugest , or someone else???

You ask me to see the medications that I can get, I have Kanamicin, tetramycin, and some others that I'll let you know, but the others you mention they don't have (Big Al's).

For now I think that's all ;D

Thank you Al.


Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
i'm not sure that the meds killed the fish. Often times when they are working on the pipes they flush the pipes with chemicals.. This may have killed and may be stressing them. You should finish the treatment unless the fish look stressed. If they are stressed don't.
As for the water quality. What you should do is filter your water in a separate container, Filter it thru a rough filter material first...something like Floss, You can also buy a filter that is installed in your plumbing that will remove solids, then the water is passed thru carbon....and should be good for your tank.

hth,
al

[Joao]

Thank you Al.
I have another loss, the blood pigeon die, his dorsal fins were completly closed and w/ fin tail rot, that's what I think it was, I gave him a salt bath, he was to weak, and I put back in the tank, and he died the next day struck by the filter intake.
The water was not the problem, because I used the old water that I have in the separate container, but those strange worms or something inside the fish, the blue d. die w/ distorsed belly full of something but not food, and the blood p. die w/ the same problem, plus fin-tail-rot because of his stage. I just hope that the others don't get it. I put the others capsules, they look a litlle stressed but I think they're clean now.

Thank's Al for the support.


Joao

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joao,
I am sorry you have had such a hard time with these fish. I wish I could have been of more help!

-al

[Joao]

Al, It was a great help, I think if I didn't know about this site and your help the other fish had died long time ago.

I'm learning w/ all this exp. it's not good but at leastmake us a bit more aware what to do when buying discus.

I met Jimmy here in toronto, again thanks to simplydiscus site,and I think he can get me some fish, I know I can trust him, he knows discus and how to take care of them, and her friend in Burlingthon. That's why I keep saying that we should have a discus society of Toronto, that way we could help each other and have our fish from a trusty source...

Al, thank's again, I'm going to do a big w/c. and take the medi. away and set up for the new ones, and fight for the ones I have now.

About the big guy that is chasing the other one, he almost took is long fins away,he has a nice one but he likes biting the other one, and runs behind him all over the tank. I'm going to put him in a divider, maybe he'll understand that, or you think I should put the one that has been bieted ????????

See you Al,

Joao

[ladyram]

Yesterday I started Prazi on my main aquarium and for my surprise I have a fish that looks exactly as the first pic of Brewmaster!!!! the others look ver stressed and the have white stringy poo which I think is worms going out

I gave them prazi in the food but they are not eating anything at all, one of the guys expelled almost nothing and now is hanging in the corner, very dark and stressed.

What's next???

[Joao]

If is hex, wich I think it could be, you have to treat for that in a separet tank, that's what I did, and good results came up.
Now you have to check your water conditions, and the food you gave them, so that way you might figure out why is like that!!!

I treated mine w/ HEX-MITE, every 10 hours w/ 50% water change.

Good luck.

Joao

[ladyram]

Obrigada pela resposta Joãozinho!!!!

Mas eu estou tratando eles com o Praxi e que parece sair são aqueles horrorosos tapeworms que O Brewmaster tirou.

O problema é que tenho um que parece não estar gostando do Prazi pois ele está num canto respirando com dificuldade e com a cabeza apontando pra acima.

Poxaaaaaaaa, é um terror ver os peixinhos tirando tanta porcaria.

[brewmaster15]

Theres something unnerving about seeing my name in a body of text thats in a language I can't understand. :) It beats the usual exclaimation marks and symbols LIKE...
That x%$$#$$@$@$##$% brewmaster!!!! though!!! ;) ;D ;D ;D

-al

[ladyram]

sorry Brewmaster but I was nervous yesterday and my portugues is a little better than my english.

I was saying to Joao that my fish looks exactly like the one you posted, and I wonder if those tapeworms can multiply in the tank or when they are ejected are already dead,

Besides I have a guy that seems t be allergic to Prazi since everytime I use Prazi he hangs in one corner breathing very heavily.

[brewmaster15]

Its okay.. I wasn't offended...just bantering on the board. :)

as for your question...
I wonder if those tapeworms can multiply in the tank or when they are ejected are already dead,
highly unlikely. Most require a secondary host that woudl also need to be in your tank.. one that is suitable... That host has to eat the eggs of the tape worm... for the worms eggs to hatch... then your fish has to eat the secondary host....
hth,
al

[outlawpc]

I was checking out various medications on the Internet and came across Jungle's Tank Buddies Parasite Clear . Jungles website mentions that one of the ingredients is Prazi. It is a tablet that fizzes (you do not have to mix it with anything).

Anyone ever use it? Results?

[brewmaster15]

I have never used it for anything internal..but it works great on external parasites.
-al

[outlawpc]

. . . Jungle says "Clears external and internal parasites. No need to raise the water temperature. Also helps prevent secondary infections and will not harm biological filtration."

"Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine."

You may note. . . not only does the medication contain praziquantel, but also metronidazole

[EthanCote.com]

Oh boi, to my surprise last night, I saw this little white string hanging out of one of my discus. And rite away, I knew it was a tapeworm. It was thin, white and disgusting. It was about 2.5" long. The fish it came out of was only about 3.5" in size.

I kept my eyes on that worm as it wiggles its way out of the fish. I wanted to make sure I scope it outta de tank before another victim ingest it.

I have to tell ya, that is a pretty horrid sight (to see a worm hanging outta de fish's butt).

This might explains why all of my fishes one by one stopped eating for a day or two before resuming their normal eating habits. Is this a typical response to tapeworm infections?

The question is, wouldn't this worm's eggs gets pass to other discus easily without a secondary host? Since all my discus seems to go after poo (which might be infected) at one time or another (thinking its food I imagine).

Danks all for your replies.


Cheerio,

Chi.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Chi,
Luckily not a concern.. The other fish may eat the eggs...but evolution of the parasite has made a very specific relationship with each of its life cycles stages. Eggs ingested will not infect the fish directly in 99.9 99% of the cases This is just for tape worms and others that use intermediate hosts.. some worms can infect by digestion of eggs (capillaria). The .001% :) of tapeworms thatdo not appear to require an intermediate host are not typical of what we see size wise.

hth,
al

[ladyram]

So glad to read this!!!!!!!!

But I have to redeworm my fish since I did it last week and it is supposed I have to deworm them again 7 days later in order to get rid of eggs, but they have been so strange since the deworming I made 7 days ago that I am scare to stress them again when they are not the same as they were before the deworming.

¿¿what do you recommend me??

[brewmaster15]

If its a tape worm... The first dose usually does the trick... The second dose is reccomended for a planted or substrate tank that you are generally deworming..... But its not for eggs with tape worms.....

My advice is if was tape worm... the first dose worked.

-al