Quarantine *questions...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
*I know many of us have posted on this in the past, or *seen posts on it. *Heres my question though. * *What is your quaranteen procedure for new fish? *When this post is done here, I'll move it the disease section, so the more detail the better....it may help someone out in the *future...

Heres my QT procedure....
1. No matter who the breeder, or seller is. I isolate the fish a minimum of 6 weeks. *All equipment is dedicated *to the QT setup.
2. When I first receive the fish *They are *dipped in methylene blue and placed in a tank that has *salt at *concentration of 1-2 tablespoons /10 gal. This helps them deal with stress.
3. If there are any signs of bacteria or fungus, they get an increase in the salt to 1 tablespoon/ 1 gal water + furan 2 until the probelm clears.
4. dewormed *with a tape worm specific medicine-praziquantel

Once eating....
5 fed *medicated gel food containing panacur * for 1week, longer if I suspect worms.
6. fed a medicated food, with metronidazole to deal with internal protozoans

7. externals parasite are dealt with using formalin , fluke tabs, *clout, or potassium Permanganate.

8. *I ALWAYS *Assume Flukes...the gift that keeps on giving... currently I have found 3 weeks *of treatment with Flubendazole *or prazi to be the most effective, and safest treatment .

at the end of 6 weeks *I take a cull from my other tanks and add it to the QT *tank This tells me if the new fish are safe *to mix with mine, and tells me if mine are safe to mix with them.

*I'd be real interested to see what you all do and why?

take care,
al

[Denny]

brew,

this is a great thread. i have a few questions about your procedure.

do you do all steps at once or in succession.in regards to metro and panacur and flub. and also the medicated foods, do you feed them at the same time or for a specific time and then switch to the next?

also, what is your w/c schedule during this time?

hope you don't mind questions instead of answers

denny

[Willie]

Mine is a lot simpler.  They go into their own tank without other discus around for 3 months.  No other treatment, just observations.  Major reason is I seldom import adult fish -- just babies from other breeders.  Second reason is that I'm quite lazy.  

Willie

[brewmaster15]

Hi Denny,
I never mix treatments.  During the 6 weeks  time course There is plenty of time to go thru the list one at a time.  A word of caution some meds don't mix well in discus. Metronidazole and panacur(fenbendazole) , IME can kill a discus.

I do a 30 % water change daily in all my tanks, and usually 50-75% on the week ends. The only time this changes is when a treatment  recommends something else.  For example  flukes-- I do a 50 % change daily, and redose everyother day with flubendazole for 3 weeks
There are a  few mindsets  with quaranteens.  Mine is to try to anticipate likely probelms and deal with them  before they get into all my tanks.   I find a benefit to doing this.

That said,  Willie's 3 month  isolation is more than enough time to see if the fish have  a probelm  like flukes, then it can be dealt with if there is something, without exposing the fish  to un necessary medicines . In a QT period of 4-6 weeks though, flukes  can remain at such low levels that  you might not realize the fish had them. Likewise  months of QT can allow you to determine if the fish are carrying other potential pathogens.  If I had the patience and space I might  try this long term  QT, but I would still treat for tape worms, and  other  internal worms as  these can remain hidden indefinetly. I would also use  a test fish  just incase.

This is just my opinion but if you skip QT, or make it too short, you may be in for some serious problems.  many of us have done that....

http://www.simplydiscus.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=library;action=display;num=10256228 25

hth,
al

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi all:
First, let me say that I am glad to be back. Things are definitely looking up again in our household. Thanks for all good wishes!
I do a similar QT as Al (no wonder, since I have recently modified my own QT practices following some of Al's advice...). However, I do a couple of things that are different. In my case this has been for wilds as I have not yet had any others, but I think I would do the same with any, no matter the source, breeder. etc.
1- I start with a very warm tank, 88 to 90, probably a little higher sometimes. This helps inducing feeding behavior and healing from ntravel.
2- I use much more salt. If I see whitish haze on fish's skin (suggestive of columnaris or other like problems), salt conc. can be as high as 8 oz/10 gallons, but I usually add 1/2 that on day one, and elevate by next day. I will keep with heat/salt for no less than 1 week, and if continued into a second week, the salt conc.will be lowered until no more.
3- If fish are eating well from the beginning, I feed normally. This is the best scenario and sometimes happens. If fish are not eating, I begin feeding on day 2 (never the day they go in the tank), and use non-polluting sinking foods, with the idea that these can be left in the tank (even if uneaten) for several hours. These foods are small whole earthworms, or chopped larger ones, colorbits, Azoo pellets; never beefheart. These foods I use in week one (while fish begin eating and while no medicines other than heat/salt is given unless specific symptoms have already been seen). As they begin to eat, I add the rest of the stuff: beefheart, bloodworms, mysis.
4- I change more water than usual during weeks 1 and 2, no less than 50% daily, more if possible. After week2, I go to 30-50% daily. At the end of week 2, usually fish are eating ravenously and most nicks would be well in their way out. Thus, I lower temp to 87 or so.
5- I never used panacur (or equivalent) before and recently started with some obtained from Al. I was having symptoms of what I was told may be roundworms (Capillaria and others). I believe it is working, but the healing process is slow and some scars may never fully dissapear.. I will never skip it in QT again!!!
HTH. Cheers for now, Francisco.

[daryl]

Mine are different also , I quarantine for 3-4 weeks, or life, let me explain. For example , when I recieved my first blue diamonds many moons ago, I put 30 in a 125 they get daily water changes , and heve remained in there ever since.  I try to keep 1 -3 strains in the same tank grow them out , thats where the 3 -4 weeks comes in.
As for medication I try not to use anything. But as a preventative I use formalin, or metroniazole is series.
Daryl

Great thread Al,

As a breeder bringing in any new fish there is always a risk of spreading something (cross contamination) I don't care how careful you are it can happen. 90% humidity and tanks wall to wall side by side makes it tough to iosolate fish.

To eliminate any chance of this happening, this past April we began construction on the new "fish room" The added space (3000gallons when finished) and separate building will act as a quaranteen room when ever we decide or chose to import discus. Thus eliminating any chances of the main hatchery (breeders , future Breeders and re-sale discus) becoming contaminated.

During this period of time live samples are sent to a diagnostic lab to be tested for anything and everything including hormones and steroids.

All fish can be treated for Worms, Flukes,Flags, External bacteria infections etc. After 2 weeks substandard fish can be added to the tanks in the out building for added insurance before they enter the main hatchery and or young discus to the separate building.


HTH

Mike

Another

Hey Mike...

Looks like the car found a new home?  :'(


Also looks like you've been very busy  ;)

Yea the car had to go Beth. *:'( :'( :'( *Very tough decision, but Its the right one I think. People that know me but are not into discus think I'm nuts. You sold the 67 mustang because you need fish space are you crazy?

Mike

Hey Mike....

I know how hard that must have been  :'( You did the right thing  :thumbsup:

I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing I had that much room to be able fill up with tanks and more :fish:

Beth

[brewmaster15]

Thanks all,
    I was beginning to think I was the only one who quaranteened-- a scary thought in itself!  ;) ;D

Mike, I noticed all your heaters are kept submersed, when not in use. Have you found the seals on submersibles  are ruined if they dry out after  having been  in the water? I ask because I have seen that with visitherms ebos, and profiles. When not in use I keep them in tanks of water too.


-al

ps....place is looking great!

[daninthesand]

Al, if I'm not mistaken, i think that tank with all the heaters is actually empty!? ???

But, you are right. I too have noticed that it seems (other than brand new) heaters dry out their seals if taken out of water for extended periods.

Daniel

The tank is empty. But yes Al I think the seals crack when they get dry esp the older EBO's Most of the time I don't have enough heaters to go around.  ;D

The ones I'm using in the photo are tempory the room will be heated. (Natural Gas is cheeper then Electric.) Plus I wont have to buy 40 heaters. We still have to drill tanks, run water and drain lines block the windows ect... If I dident get some tanks out there and some fish going I'd never get it done. We got it going should not be long now.  

Mike

[BlueTurquoise]

Hi guys, Great topic esp for the newbies like me.

My totally newbie question is where do I go about optaining these medications? I am aware that my LFS has medications but they are mostly brand names and what not. I know that the chemist sells PP but what about formalin? metronidazole? 100% methylene blue? praziquantel? Usually all the stuff i have seen is pretty much mixed medications or broad spectrum stuff.

The selection at my LFS is usually brand named stuff from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals or Aquasonic and sold as brand name medications. Their website is usually pretty lame as well and never lists ingredients. Maybe i should look harder at my LFS next time. Do i have to go to a Vet?

Basically when you guys say metronidazole do you guys mean generally any product containing metronidazole the chemical or should I be going out to seek a bottle of pure metronidazole? If so then were do i get pure metronidazole?

Thanks!

[Ardan]

HI Blue Turquoise,
I get some meds here (metro, kanacyn, pipzine, )http://www.4fishstuff.com/index.htm cownload the catalog, then you can call and order (also have to send a form that you fill out saying the meds are only used for fish)
Metro is  a powder, sold in bottles as pure metronidazole.
I have purchased formalin at www.drsfostersmith.com

Also www.jehmco.com has some meds.

Panacur can only fe bought at a vet as far as I know.

Prazi can be bought from billman@citynet.net
or from http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Store.htm (also some other meds like flubendazole here)
I saw one other source, now I can't find it.

hth
Ardan :sunshine:

[brewmaster15]

Hi BlueTurQ,
 Not sure where in your area you can find meds, but if you can find a vet to work with it would be great. hey can get you Panacur(fendendazole) and metronidazole( usually as Flagyl).  Vets that specialize in farm animals also  have access  to compounds related  to  fendendazole...levamisole and fenbendazole  are used to deworm sheep


I believe in australia you can buy Fenbendazole without a prescription. Chcek at any farm animal supply stores.. Even in the usa  they sell over the counter a  10%  fenbendazole -  gel based , and flavored with apple for horses. :)

hope this helps,
al

[daryl]

Mike,
What diagnostic lab do you use? And what specifically are you testing for.
Just a question,
Daryl

Its a Veteran Diagnostic lab at a Major US University. This is not something they do for the average Joe so I am hesitant to list names and address on a public forum. They mainly do work for major fish farms...Salmon, Trout, etc. They give you a total breakdown on the fish.  Parasites, Protozoan, Bacteria, Hormones, Steroids, and drugs or chemicals that were recently introduced to the fish. They also give you the cure or suggested meds to treat what ever they may have. Takes a lot of the guss work out of it.

Its not 100% fool proof as all you can do is randomly select test subjects.

What am I having them tested for? Any and all of the above. I feel safer introducing new fish and selling discus that I have a full breakdown on.


JMO

Mike

[Al_M.]

Exellent Idiea Mike

[RichieE]

Brew, After that 6 week Quarantine is there a mandatory stay at Betty Ford? No wonder weve got all these beautifully colored and patterend Discus.  These guys are comming off acid!  (I know this is a serious thread but I couldnt help myself. Play through.)

Not JYO, But mine as well!
Should be everyones who resales Discus! from around the world! many nasty's out there. I do this often Myself.
you would not believe the things you find and miss. And it sure beats the battle of going to a forum haveing 20 people guess what you have and how to cure it! like they say put it in writeing! ofcourse if you own a microscope this will also help a great deal with the basics.
HTH
takecare'
cary Gld!

[BlueTurquoise]

Thanks for the good advice! I have an old friend of mine that was studying to be a vet... have not talked to him for a long time but I will give him a call...

Besides I am sure it will be hard to get them through Australian Customs, and that's if any US sites even ship to Australia...*sigh*

Thanks again! Can't wait for the weekends! Aquarium hopping time! BT: "Look at all the pretty little fishes" *;D

[daryl]

Mike,
The reason I ask , my side job when time is available is doing micro and tox screens , in conjunction with a major vet school, and university. Thats why I ask , those tests you suggest are tough to pull off in a fish, unless you are just testing the water, very interesting.
Daryl

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
 Anyone have experience with any of these services...


http://www.upei.ca/~fishhlth/fish.htm
  ........ http://www.upei.ca/~fishhlth/people2.htm


Canadian Fish Diagnostic Laboratories....
http://www.google.com./search?q=cache:QQeXIGBlwlcC:www.agf.gov.bc.ca/croplive/anhlth/ahc/ahcfishlab.htm+Canadian%2Bpathology%2Bfish&hl=en&i e=UTF-8


just  curious looks like they can do some seriously tests there....


-al

[breed_beyond]

    How big do you all suggest for a qt tank? Would a ten gallon be too small if you are only gonna put 2 2.5 inch discus in there? And if you are gonna be putting discus in a tank with no other discus in it to start out a tank can you bypass the qt process, since they would be the first inhabitants...

[brewmaster15]

Hi breed_beyond,
 that 10 gal is fine for that size fish, I like 20's  better, because they  accomodate more fish and really don't take up much more room.

 If its your first fish in a tank, you can  skip  the QT BUT>>>>

the bigger the tank the More medicine and cost if there is a problem,  likewise if  there is a problem, and its a bad one,  you may wind up having to bleach the ttank and start over!

hth,
al

Daryl, They are testing Live fish.  At least when I send them they are alive, and I can't just send them I have to call and set up a day when they can get to them. (appointment) What they do or how is beyond me. They fax the findings a week later.

Mike

DARYL,
ARE YOU KIDDING? THIS HAS BEEN DONE MANY TIMES BEFORE.
LIVE FISH WITH BAC PROBLEMS ETC.. BEING IDENTIFIED BY TYPE AND STRAIN. AND ALSO WHAT ANTIBIOTIC'S OR ETC.. NEEDED TO KILL IT!  EMAIL ME I'LL FAX YOU AFEW COPIES.
TAKECARE'
CARY GLD!

[daryl]

Cary,
The part that is interesting to me, is
"Hormones, Steroids, and drugs or chemicals that were recently introduced to the fish". The bacteria screens are not what I was refering to those are the easy part.. And the reason I say that is since I have done tox. Enviromental, blood, and whole body, screens for unknowns they can become very costly.  .As for faxing me one I have a good idea what they look like.

Daryl
     

I see your Point! :D
And agree. Not to sure about that stuff myself. But once I did received a report on a discus that had high levels of formaldahyde in the bloodstream. stay cool daryl and keep up the good work!
takecare'
cary gld

[gotodiscus]

Has any importer noticed most of the red and Red spotted color fish were hard to treat and some might died without external symtoms during the quarantine period ?

To quarantine the fish without the proper source is just like playing a gamble.

Out of ten shipments for just one is enough for you to scratch your head , plus the profits you made from the 9 shipments will go into the drain,if you keep the un-quarantined new arrivals in the same building,no matter how clever you are and how tight your isolation would be ,adult fish normally no problem if they have built up the anti-bodies,but,discus fries will say bye! bye! to you,you will find they have sticky tails and hard to raise after separate from parents,sooner or later you will swear like rabbits.

I got bad experience twice and have no gut in attempting the 3rd time for un-quarantined Discus in my premise.also,I pity the hobbyists for wasting their money on bad quality fish.

Not just formalin alone in the blood stream,there are others toxic chemical that damage the gut,liver and spleen. during quarantine period some shipments you might not find any symtom till the onset of the damages of internal organs at the hobbyists' tanks.I used to sent for analysis at our local fishery and they found and told me.also,friend of mine in Australia has the same problem after one import from a well known farm in Malaysia,report was almost the same.

I got burnt by Discus on consignment,so,I am now only looking for breeders who can follow my instruction,but,I won't tell them too much,because they have no royalty,whoever buy from them they will sell and tell.as the trade secret I also thanks for people in the same trade of our region not to visit our farm. hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!that's the way,Mate!

So,if you are going to import the Discus make sure they carry the first quarantine long enough before shipment,so,you don't have to pay freight for culls and un-wanted shapes to carry out the second quarantine in your premise,this way you don't have to close your door when customers visiting you and you say:oh! I have just sold them out to somewhere,I will keep you informed when I have the stocks.I think this statement is very common to many hobbyists for they don't want to show they have sick fish all over the farms,this is normal for the prevention of hobbyists might tell the competitor when they visiting next.

***Quarantine and Quality control is similar to Shoalin Temple.***

Have you guys seen the movies" Shoalin Temple?
when the munks wish to go out of the temple they must conquer the 18 Brass men,so,I wish dealers can follow this policy"Quarantine and Quality Control" before sales as to help the hobbyists to have healthy Discus and Hobbyists don't mind pay a little bit more to the dealers for the hard work done on your Discus.I am sure the problem of NEW and Old Discus problem in your community tank will have less problem.

I am sorry for this post ,no offence ,please.

[ChienHsu]

Hi! everyone

I have a question. After quarantine process is done, how can I move the fish into the regular tank from QT, since the tools (i.e. nets) can not be shared with each other? ???

Thanks

Chien

[gotodiscus]

ChienHsu,
Be brave to throw them into your community tank with your existing discus,anything happen you just bring them out to re-quarantine the whole lots again,otherwise,you will have to waste your time in worrying the new and old's problem.
If really have something happen then I will tell you how to fix it.

[ronrca]

Chein,
This is how I understand it! The QT tank after you have your fish QT'd for 4-6weeks should now be free of any disease that they possibly could be carrying from the lfs or wherever! That includes the QT tank itself. When using a net, I always disinfect it using boiling water it anyways, it should be safe to transfer your discus from the QT to another tank. Of course afterwards, disinfect the net again.

[gotodiscus]

Hello ! Discus Newbies,

You can quarantine to cure diseases and kill parasites even up to a 3 months' period,but,it doesn't mean that they are save now,if your discus has never exposed to plague,they will never escape from it in their life time,so,I suggest the best way is to let the plague kiss and say Good Bye!

p.s:I realised many of you are tire of reading my post,but,I am here to make it the last,so,let's see who will be the first crown to post after mine,if you have never get the chicken pox before,just reply and say you are tire then we will understand,please don't be shy to stand out and post.

[fcdiscus]

Is it just me or is anyone else a little tired of this guy? frank

[no1joey]

Yes its just you :P haha ,
question : is a 40 litre tank big enough to house 2-3 discus for 6 weeks ? i.e the quarantine period ?

[ronrca]

Goto,
Chicken Pox? Why always chicken pox? I have never had whooping cough, TB, pneumonia, meningitis, small pox, mumps, measles and the list goes on and on! So, I guess I should expose myself to as many diseases as possible (the above only being a faction of possible diseases). Tell me goto, have you exposed yourself to all the possible diseases also as you are suggesting to do with discus? Would it not help you to 'over come' those disease that you MAY get?

Sorry if Im being a little forthcoming but unless you can tell me what the plague is (that I have asked a couple of times now), I wish you would just forget the notion of exposing discus to 'the plague'. It is absurd, totally! You are increasing the risk of losing discus by a million times and most of us newbies are losing discus that are not even disease related, never mind 'the plague'! One thing Id like to see the prices for discus come down, not go up! This whole idea of exposing discus to 'the plague' will increase the cost by what, 5x? That makes a lot of sense. Now you have even less people that can afford them! Thats a good thing! ::)

[brewmaster15]

Strike 2 GS.....


so,let's see who will be the first crown to post after mine,if you have never get the chicken pox before,just reply and say you are tire then we will understand,please don't be shy to stand out and post

You are wearing out your welcome.

-al

[jim_shedden]

Enough is enough !
GS ...who do you represent? I want to avoid your discus at all costs. Where I live we have a common saying about things that make us sick. It is : "I FEEL LIKE I'VE BEEN ATE BY A WOLF AND SCHITT OVER A CLIFF". My neighbours kids have the measles right now. If you havn't had them I now cwhile the a an arrange for you to get them ................. :flame:

Jim

[jim_shedden]

Sorry for the spelling ...............I have to go throw up...... :P

Jim

[ronrca]

LOL Jim! My sister in law often gets pneumonia and has had meningitis! I can also let you know if and when she has it again!

[gotodiscus]

oh! let me count how many I have to response?
1...2...3....4..
yeh,I must inhale long enough before I can exhale all my heats out.


1) fcdiscus,
Speak with no courteoursy,so,I must teased him impolitely.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) Brewmaster,
It is your failure for being the board Administrator to replied in such a manner,you know,you are just like an owner of a snack bar,how could you tell your customers to piss off when they are talking too loud in your bar,likewise,forum must have posters and viewers that come from different levels of people,blue collars and white collars are equal as long as they want to join in the discussion.Remember"Even a thief has his own characteristics" no doubt the majority disagree my method of keeping discus,but,you must let the minority share a piece of cake.if you only look high that will end up with a nickname of "snob"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) roncra,
How many times do you want me to tell you Plague is very similar to Chicken pox that we have it only once in our life time,discus after the plague its body automatically will build up an anti-body which is enough to fight off many common diseases,I 've never mentioned it can conquer all kinds of pathogens,and you twisted it to other human diseases.go back and ask your doctor whether Herpes Simplex virus can combat HIV virus? this question I asked many times,so far no body answer it.

When you consult the doctor once you are sick,must he/she has to take the smear and micro.check the disease which to him nearly everyday the patients come and show him about the same symtom? discus plague to us the old timers are the same,we normally treat our fish by symtoms except some unknown bacteria then we have to trouble our fishery Dept.
Maybe to you as a novice when you see the Discus turn black you just called it the plague or black disease,similarly,if a country folk never go out of his village and just listening to radio said africans are black,what happen if an indian appear in front of him ?I suggest you buy a book of Discus Health by Dieter untergasser and read thru page 319 to 325 then at least you have a little bit of knowledge. I would say the symtom of Flexibacter Columnaris is different from Plague if you observe it carefully.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Jim,
Why worry about your mis-spelling? as you already said enough is enough ! ,not necessary to re-post for we understand you have poor spelling,but,you tried hard to sneak in and post with your sincerity,that's enough!
Regarding your neighbour's kid that is exaggerated,how could it be so coincident,especially while we are having discussion here?don't you think your friend will say you are a bush!t King?

_______________________________________________

Many people provide information on books and articles for fames and money,whereas anonymous posters provide it on forums for hobby,and yet we received the craps in return,it seems to tell us might as well go and fly kite on the bushy central high way.

p.s:I am from the lion city where you people visit to the AquaRama . Good Luck !

[no1joey]

for gods sake ur all adults grow up.im 20 and this sounds all too ridiculous to me..just stop fighting and get ur water cleaner or something..

[brewmaster15]

GS,
Congratulations. I was wondering how long it would take you to show your true colors and I think this is a record for you on a forum.

You ideas are not the problem though They are founded on nothing but misunderstood biological principals. As admin of this board I have left those as they stood and stated my opinion of them.

Your attitude and manners when posting is the problem and you have been warned both on the board and by IM. If you have a probelm with this IM message and we will discuss it.

Learn to post with respect or learn to post somewhere else. Your typical behavior is unacceptable here.

-al

alex- you are absolutely correct.

[jim_shedden]

Ditto Al. But I will admit he was right ............. my neighbours kids do not have the measeles (I bullshchitted) but there is an outbreak of rabies up here. Does this mean we should take all the kids out into the bush and let them get bit by a rabid wolf. Maybe a couple of kids would build up atibodies and survive but I suspect that 99% would not. These fish are our kids.................but some people just don't get it. The day I start treating an animal as a commodity is the day I am out of the hobby.
And this is absoultely the last time I will repond or waste my time on this thread.

Jim

[gotodiscus]

Al,
Since you provide this forum for hobbyists to learn and share,it is similar to the toilet in your snack bar,when people have their bowel upset you can't stop them for using it ,no doubt they having their meals at the bars somewhere else ,because human always have the habbit of using new toilet for they have the misconception of "New is cleaned",but,the feces that release out from us the human,can you say yours is just a little bit cleaner than the rest of us?

Knowledge and personal attitude you have to differentiate
in two different cases,if a capable president prove to his citizens that he has the talent in governing his country for all the citizens to make their good living with equality,but,he has the bad habbit of drunk (This is his private life),do you think the citizens will elect him in the next election?
Even the opposition parties disclose it on the road side rally for thousands of times they will pretend never heard of it before,
but,when president just say only once on the T.V all the citizens give him a big clap for supporting.
So far,we have only seen articles and books talking about the plague,has anyone come out here to tell the hobbyists what is the cause of the discus plague? I think they will just keep it for their own use,but,I am the exception for I learnt and provide free information on forums ,so,I reckon this is the reason why I got ban from forums for I telling the differences between the "Recruit" and "Commando" discus,I presume any forum that used to ban posters is talking more about related to business than hobby,or maybe I am wrong here.
Of course I will find another forum to post and disclose more about the discus plague,when I ready I will let all newbies know where I post it,I would say it will be a "must Know"for your future Discus keeping.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jim,
Since you admit you are a bush!t king,now I exaggerating a story of Fame and Shame which is also talking about the Paper and experience.(it is only joke)

You know in the last Duisburg Discus competition there was doctor crazy about the fame and forget about the shame,because he has been working in the hospital in the operation room for more than 20 years,he has been trying hard to find out of what can make him the fame until he met me one year ago and I told him DISCUS is the only way that I knew can make him well known to the world,so,he started to jump into this hobby after got the information from me,he spent heaps of money on quality Discus but,he is so stingy worry about I might make some profits on his fish,so,he prefer to go alone to buy fish directly from Penang breeders and they treated him like a big fat pig,told him the fish were the AAA quality and charged him a fortune,he has been keeping these discus waiting for the Duisburg Int'l Champion for a long time,but,what a sudden! there was an appointment happened to be on the 1st of Oct.02,so,he came and discussed with me of how could he loose this chance for he has prepared all the AAA Discus hoping to win the Int'l Champion,I told him maybe he could find someone who can carry this job,and he told me his assistant can do it,I asked:does he have the experience?
he said:This doctor spent more times in getting his cert.but no experience.
I asked:how can you trust him? this is concerning a person life.
He replied:no worry! I know how to fix him,my fame is more important.
So,he negotiate with the assistant to carry this operation,
assistand Said:I can do it,but,I have the bad memory and always forget something in the patient body.

Crazy Doctor:this operation is for a patient suffering from heart attack,and he is very old,you just treat the case same as you were practising in School,but,one thing you must tell him the true when the patient ask you,otherwise he will not let you do it for him.I will call you when I in Duisburg or something urgent you can call me too.(The crazy doctor already knew the asst.has the bad memory and always forget to take out the scissors or knifes in the patient's body)

So,when it came to the day for operation,everything are ready and just one hour before the operation,the assistant doctor tried to consoled the patient not to worry and they started to chat:
Patient asked:doctor you are older than the rest of doctors here you must have studied for a long time?

asst.doctor: oh! because I supposed to got my cert.within five years,but,I spent 10 years instead for I have the bad memory.

Patient ask:then how long you have been working in here?

Asst,doctor:I have been working here for more than 10 years only as the assistant.

Patient:so,how are you going to do the operation for me?

Asst.Doctor:No worry! this is my first trial in my experience and this operation will only takes you a short hour and we are using the new method and you will still awake,so,if you feel any pain in your body please remind me I might forget something in your body.
After the doctor told the patient and he started to got shocked and have the body clamped ,so,the asst.doctor called Duisburg to ask for help from the crazy doctor and he said:you just wait for a while then it will be alright,just before he turn off the phone ,a nurse came in a hurry to informed the patient already kicked the bucket,then the asst.told the crazy doctor about that and
he replied:you see! that is so simple,you don't even have to wet your hand and the problem just solved.

You newbies just quess,can the doctor win the prize if he has no experience and trust the breeders?
==========================================
People said money is the way of all the devil,here we will say "Discus is the fish to bring you the fame" that's why so many people trying hard to make their fames and don't mind sacriffice others as the crazy doctor ,but,I advise you hobbyists please don't take it too seriously as it just a hobby.


Jim,
How's that? you must bush!t with something related to discus not to human.

[brewmaster15]

goodbye GS
-al

[fcdiscus]

SteeeeeeeeRike3- You are outta here! Frank

[ronrca]

GS!
You are a fuuny guy, you know that! Yes, you have mentioned this 'plague' is similar to the chicken pox but it is based only on one thing, once exposed therefore build up antibodies! So what! I dont remember being purposely exposed to chicken pox! I dont remember chicken pox being as deadly as the 'plague' either! So why dont we start comparing it to a 'deadly' disease! Sort of apples to apples maybe!

Btw, you still did not give a clear answer on the pricing issue so I'll post it again (or is that something that is no concern?)!


You are increasing the risk of losing discus by a million times and most of us newbies are losing discus that are not even disease related, never mind 'the plague'! One thing Id like to see the prices for discus come down, not go up! This whole idea of exposing discus to 'the plague' will increase the cost by what, 5x? That makes a lot of sense. Now you have even less people that can afford them! Thats a good thing!

And one more issue that I have researched! No one knows what the 'plague' is so how can we even start with the immunization! Like I have mentioned, I agree with you that some kind of 'exposure' would be a good idea and I think that everyone involved would agree to having an immunization, anti-virus, booster shot method however talking about exposure to the 'real' thing as you mention is absurb!

"Gee Techer! My kid has chicken pox! Why dont all your kids come over and also get infected! At least it would be over for good!" Im curious why kids should stay home when they do have chicken pox!

[jim_shedden]

Well............... I've had my chuckle for the day............

Jim ..............aka...the bullschit king.............. :mickey:

[jamesmcsyd]

This is a reply to Chongs post a few pages back.

Praziquantel can be bought in Australia at most LFS now. The only two companies that make it here are 'aquarium science' who sell it as a de-wormer, and 'aquamaster'. Make sure they do not give you trichlorofon, not that this isn't a bad fluke killer either.

James

[tom.s]

great post

[xpotato]

I got a question
I heard some ppl mix the fenbendazole into gel food during Quarantine.

I want to know what kind of Gel food are they talking about? (any brand name to give)? Teh LFS doesn't know what is gel food?

Many thanks

[O]

Al,

How much time do you allow between each new med treatment?

If the breeder/importer had recently(let's in the last two month) had done all of the mentioned treatments(metro, prazi, panacur etc) would you recommend repeating it?

Not sure if I should be posting to this thread since got off topic, but would appreciate the info.

Thanks.
Oleg.

[brewmaster15]

Hi O!

Most meds are processed by the liver.. so its good to allow a week or so between medications.


If the breeder/importer had recently(let's in the last two month) had done all of the mentioned treatments(metro, prazi, panacur etc) would you recommend repeating it?

This is a personal decision. If you have a great relationship with the seller, you will probably have faith in what they tell you. This is the benefit of building a relationship with a seller.

Personally I treat all fish, irregardless of the source the same. The rest of my fish are far too important for me not to.

-al

[O]

Thanks, Al. Do you keep the temp high during that week? How about salt?

O.

[brewmaster15]

hi O,
I only use salt if theres a problem.. not as a preventive.

as for the high heat.I've never used it much.. The highest I will go is 90-92 F when I am trying to stimulate appetite. I don't use it routinely. Though many swear by it and have great success with it.

hth,
al

[barron]

Hi O

Mix into any food they will eat, add knox gelatine. as a binder to hold the food together.

Buy the gelatine your food store.

I use bloodworms about .5 - 1.0 oz, add drug and gel about a teaspoon with a little near boiling water, mix, chill, done. Then feed.

I only put panacur in the food, metro and prazi in water.

Barron :)

[O]

Al,
Another QT question for ya.

"When I first receive the fish They are dipped in methylene blue and placed in a tank that has salt at concentration of 1-2 tablespoons /10 gal. This helps them deal with stress."

How much methylene blue fo you use & how long do you keep them in the solution before moving them into the QT tank?

Thanks
O.

[barron]

Hi O

I do not use it. I have it for nitrite poisoning if needed.
I think the salt and temp sould be enough.

Barron

[brewmaster15]

Hi O!!!

It depends on the concenetration of blue you have. The dye is actually very safe for fish, so its not too critical... but take a look here for some guidelines....

http://www.petsforum.com/novalek/kpd28.htm

hth,
al

ps... Barron... for nitrite poisoning... meth blue and salt are a great combo! :thumbsup:

[O]

Thanks Barron. I feel using methelyne blue is a good preventive mesure, as well as heat & salt.

Thanks, Al. I appreciate the link.

O.

[Alan]

This is a funny thread ;D Now that the dust has settled, here's my 2 cents.

After experiencing some deaths in my quarantine procedure which was supposed to be preventive, I decided to just keep it simple - high heat and salt for the first week. Then, observation for the next 5 weeks or so.

If you have to do preventive medication, the one week interval between chemicals/medication as Al has stated, is advisable. Also do a lot of water changes and maybe put carbon in the tank to eliminate any trace of the previous chemicals and/or medication.

In hindsight, I believe it was a mixture of non-compatible chemicals/medication that caused the deaths in my quarantine tank, which could have been prevented with the WC's and carbon I mentioned above. Who knows?

[Ardan]

this is a great thread to read and reread.
Al has some great pointers!

I just recently got some new discus and used the prazi and tapeworms came out. I am doing the 21 day treatment to make sure all flukes are gone.


I also got some new oscars and had to use the furan 2 due to external bacteria. I did treat for hex as one started to expel some strange feces. they are now normal. They will also get the prazi treatment to make sure they are clean.

Thanks Al for the great post! 8) :)

[aziyaeian]

Hi
I think the height of tank`s position is very important for fishes like discus.
My fishes in upper tank eat better than the others in the lower tank and their growth is better .of course they are more relax than the other.
Although I think positioning the quarantine tank up to the other tanks helps the fishes to be more comfortable.
What is your idea and what is your experience about it?
Afshin

[Chinaman]

Al,

"7. externals parasite are dealt with using formalin , fluke tabs, clout, or potassium Permanganate."

I have a question regards to the fluke tabs. Do you use the full dose? and have your discus experience any side affect? I have read some where that the fluke tabs are toixc(i think) in soft water and high temp.

also does everyone uses the same qt procedure for discus tank mates eg. cardinal tetra and pleco?

Thanks

Jim

[brandy]

Make sure you don't use fluke tabs on the plecos, it will kill them :'(

[aquaria_rn1]

My QT
They go into 20Gallons QT Tank, All equipment dedicated to this tank. I observe for first 24 hour. If I see anything specyfic I treat accordingly. If nothing I treat with Melafix and Primafix. Oh, Prior to placing in QT I give them a formalin or Methylene bath. They remain in Qt for minimum of 4-6 weeks. :bandana:

[ppv1951]

great thread. thank you guys!

pat.

[Pooquey2000]

Hi,

From what I've seen so far LFS sell metronidazole with additives that increase slime coat. From what I understand that's not an advantage at all. I've been purchasing my pure metronidazole from Rocky Mountain Discus, which is a great site/place/owner, for two months now because I had to do a cleaning. I would imagine Jehmco has it too. Yes, get the pure stuff. Check out Jehmco for the other stuff you mentioned.

Newbie, but learning awful fast,

Colette


Hi guys, Great topic esp for the newbies like me.

My totally newbie question is where do I go about optaining these medications? I am aware that my LFS has medications but they are mostly brand names and what not. I know that the chemist sells PP but what about formalin? metronidazole? 100% methylene blue? praziquantel? Usually all the stuff i have seen is pretty much mixed medications or broad spectrum stuff.

The selection at my LFS is usually brand named stuff from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals or Aquasonic and sold as brand name medications. Their website is usually pretty lame as well and never lists ingredients. Maybe i should look harder at my LFS next time. Do i have to go to a Vet?

Basically when you guys say metronidazole do you guys mean generally any product containing metronidazole the chemical or should I be going out to seek a bottle of pure metronidazole? If so then were do i get pure metronidazole?

Thanks!

[Pooquey2000]

Al that's some QT proceedure you've got there! I'm BOTH printing it and storing it. You've mentioned two meds I haven't even heard of. Now I'll have to figure out where to get them... and in what amounts?

If you were an overzealous hobbiest who hated last minute panic shopping, wanted to be ready for all common and semi-common medical calamities, what would you have on hand? Metro, Piperizine, Prazi Crystals or Formaldehyde, Dimetronidazole, Furan 2.....???

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for your contribution! Colette

[Suzanne]

http://world.std.com/~enjolras/symtreat.htm

[Skip]

Al.. is this QT procedure still what you do?

[vernon_24]

How is pp used for qt in a tank ???
i've added 1 tbls salt/10 gal and the temp is arnd 28c
they are not discus but Denison's Barb and 6 tetras..!

[Eddie]

How is pp used for qt in a tank ???
i've added 1 tbls salt/10 gal and the temp is arnd 28c
they are not discus but Denison's Barb and 6 tetras..!

Careful with the salt, can take the tetras down quickly.

Many methods of QT practiced. Some will treat and some will not, its up to you. If they are tetras and barbs from a LFS than I would probably decide on treating them, to be safe.

You don't have to use PP. It just depends on what you feel comfortable using to treat external parasite/protozoa.

[vernon_24]

Careful with the salt, can take the tetras down quickly.

Many methods of QT practiced. Some will treat and some will not, its up to you. If they are tetras and barbs from a LFS than I would probably decide on treating them, to be safe.

You don't have to use PP. It just depends on what you feel comfortable using to treat external parasite/protozoa.
is pratzi good enough ???
or do i hv to go with metro too ltr ??

[Eddie]

Prazi is limited, it's not s good broad spectrum external bug treatment. No need for metro IMO.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[vernon_24]

Prazi is limited, it's not s good broad spectrum external bug treatment. No need for metro IMO.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

then what do i go with ?

[Eddie]

then what do i go with ?

Depends on what you have available. Quick Cure at half dose can be used safely on tetras. QC is a Formalin & Malachite Green combo.

[mikishuhoo]

Is QC good for Discus external parasite too? I'm thinking to treat them for new fish though.

Depends on what you have available. Quick Cure at half dose can be used safely on tetras. QC is a Formalin & Malachite Green combo.

[brewmaster15]

Is QC good for Discus external parasite too? I'm thinking to treat them for new fish though.

Quick cure (formalin +malachite green) is very effective on many external parasites, particularly on protozoans. Many do use it when they get new fish in, others use it after they have a problem and have a good hunch or positive ID on something known to be susceptible to it.. It often comes down to personal choice.

hth,
al

[Celticreds5]

QT questions. I am getting two approx 3 in Snakeskins and 10 neon tetras. They have been in a 90 gal tank with a few other fish including three Angelfish and some coris. The guy is a soldier and is going on deployment, so he is breaking down his tank. He said all fish were healthy and eating well--I haven't seen them in person myself yet, but he sounds like he does pretty well with his fish--he has a saltwater and a freshwater tank. Anyway, I know I will Qt--I have already made the newbie mistake of falling in love with two discus at LFS and adding them to my tank after only 3 days QT. My four new discus got sick along with the two new ones--two new ones eventually died. Mine got better thankfully--so lesson learned! Patience--QT must be several weeks not days! About the QT I bought what I thought was a 10 gal tank off CL and cleaned it up for a QT tank. I kept thinking it looked a bit small for a 10 gal--come to fine out it's only 5.5 gal. It will only be housing the two small discus and 10 neons--with daily water changes, will it be ok? Also it has a small HOB filter--nothing fancy--has the typical blue charcoal pad and a bio pad. Should I replace this with a sponge filter or add in a sponge filter and keep the HOB? One last question--I have a 44 gal corner tank which houses at the moment--4 approximately 2 1/2-3 in discus, 3 Emerald Cories, 2 Pepper Coris and one LF BN Pleco--I will be adding the 10 neons and 2 more small discus eventually. I know when all are full grown it won't be big enough--how long before I should upgrade to a larger tank?

Thanks ahead of time for the help and input :fish:

[Eddie]

QT questions. I am getting two approx 3 in Snakeskins and 10 neon tetras. They have been in a 90 gal tank with a few other fish including three Angelfish and some coris. The guy is a soldier and is going on deployment, so he is breaking down his tank. He said all fish were healthy and eating well--I haven't seen them in person myself yet, but he sounds like he does pretty well with his fish--he has a saltwater and a freshwater tank. Anyway, I know I will Qt--I have already made the newbie mistake of falling in love with two discus at LFS and adding them to my tank after only 3 days QT. My four new discus got sick along with the two new ones--two new ones eventually died. Mine got better thankfully--so lesson learned! Patience--QT must be several weeks not days! About the QT I bought what I thought was a 10 gal tank off CL and cleaned it up for a QT tank. I kept thinking it looked a bit small for a 10 gal--come to fine out it's only 5.5 gal. It will only be housing the two small discus and 10 neons--with daily water changes, will it be ok? Also it has a small HOB filter--nothing fancy--has the typical blue charcoal pad and a bio pad. Should I replace this with a sponge filter or add in a sponge filter and keep the HOB? One last question--I have a 44 gal corner tank which houses at the moment--4 approximately 2 1/2-3 in discus, 3 Emerald Cories, 2 Pepper Coris and one LF BN Pleco--I will be adding the 10 neons and 2 more small discus eventually. I know when all are full grown it won't be big enough--how long before I should upgrade to a larger tank?

Thanks ahead of time for the help and input :fish:

Honestly, I'd get a larger tank, a 20 gallon at least for the QT of the new fish. A 29 even better! Are you planning on adding a sponge or some substrate from your existing tank to the new one or just relying on water changes? Also, what is your plan for the QT process? Are you just going to monitor the fish and then add one of your existing fish to the QT?

[a volar]

Al.. is this QT procedure still what you do?

I will like to know also if Al still QT fish like he explain in the OP............. are you Al?

[NAB]

I will like to know also if Al still QT fish like he explain in the OP............. are you Al?

I am wondering this myself. I understand this is a bit of a necro post but I really want to get down a good QT setup for the next time I buy discus. So has this changed over the years or is this still a decent guide?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Just saw this and thought I would update. I do much of what I always have done.. though I do tailor it a bit different depending on the condition the fish come in...

For those interested..I had done several Discus Disease and Health Presentations over the years... The following are from a few pages of that presentation. HTH, al

Suggested Quarantine Procedures...
Receive fish: Place into a clean tank with aged (well aerated/pH stable warm water (85-87F). Use a well cycled bio filter.
Week One: Many Frequent water changes, observe fish behavior, and treat for anything specifically noted******. Be sure all fish are eating well and passing normal feces.
Week Two: Prophylactic deworming with Praziquantel for tape worms, several days latter deworm with general dewormer (levamisole) added to water as 24 hour bath
Week Three: Repeat Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Four: Let rest, nothing but water changes.
Week Five: Re-dose with Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Six: Quarantine is over if the fish are looking healthy and eating well and are not to be mixed with existing stock. If these are to be mixed with existing stock..add least favorite of existing stock (aka Test fish) to new fishes stock.
Week Six-Week Eight: Observe new stock and test fish. If all is well, most likely safe to mix all fish.
**** important note

Quarantine Common Sense:
Maintain complete separation of new stock from existing livestock.
Use separate nets, hoses, buckets, and siphons for each quarantine tank.
Separate rooms are much safer than in room quarantines.
Perform all maintenance on new stock’s quarantine tank after you are done with all existing tanks.
Wash hands and arms thoroughly after working in tanks.
Maintain optimum water quality, less stress means healthier fish
Tank should have a fully cycled bio-filter. Quarantining a group of fish is not the time to be cycling a tank!!!
Be vigilant… catching and treating a problem early on is better than latter when it may be harder or impossible to treat.

Brews Top 11 Discus Health Issues
1. Chemical Poisoning: Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, heavy metals (ex. copper and iron), Medications. Suggested treatment…clean water and lots of it!
2. Dissolved gases: Low dissolved oxygen or high dissolved C02/nitrogen etc. Suggested treatment ...age and aerate water.
3. Improper Shipping and Handling Techniques: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying only from reputable ones.
4. Improper care of Discus at Vendor’s Shop: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying from reputable ones.
5. Well meaning but inappropriate or inaccurate advice. Suggested course of action…Check references…information abounds in the internet and pet shops, both good and bad info.
Improper care of Discus on the part of the hobbyist. To keep any fish, a basic knowledge of species requirements and needs exists…Discus require a bit more than basic knowledge. Suggested treatment…Learn as much as you can!!
7. Poor Tank Hygiene Syndrome: Suggested treatment….Be less stingy with the water changes and maintenance.
8. “Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Syndrome” A fish that is sickly or poor quality when you buy it isn’t going to miraculously turn into a beautiful specimen. Suggestion..start with obviously healthy stock, not obviously sickly or low grade stock.
9. Hobbyist Mediated Pandemic: Occurs when a hobbyist recklessly acquires many specimens in a short period of time from multiple sources…mixing these together with existing stock then leads to Immune Overload..aka..sick fish. Suggested treatment….Learn patience and adhere to a sound Quarantine plan!!
10. Nutritional deficiencies…Largely unknown how this affects Discus specifically.. But what we do know is that every animal needs an adequate diet.. Suggestion…feed a varied diet to your discus of quality foods.

And finally…… Number 11!!!!


11. Gill flukes, external and internal protozoans, nematodes, bacterial infections, viruses, “plagues”etc…..

Why is this one listed last in a talk about Discus Diseases and health you may ask?…

Because! If you pay attention to the first 10 conditions mentioned you may not even need to worry about number 11! A healthy fish that has all its needs taken care of and is not stressed has an innate advantage when dealing with diseases and illness..

[NAB]

Thanks for updating this Al. :)

[DonMD]

Thanks for posting this QT

[DonMD]

Thanks for posting this QT procedure, Al, it's very useful. A question on the levamisole: I have been told that this medication is only effective at temperatures of 78F or lower. What's your experience in this regard? Thanks, -Don

[dirtyplants]

I have only been able to find in a gel where to purchase?

[brewmaster15]

Thanks for posting this QT procedure, Al, it's very useful. A question on the levamisole: I have been told that this medication is only effective at temperatures of 78F or lower. What's your experience in this regard? Thanks, -Don

Don,
I don't know where that info came from but evidence to the contrary is its used a pig, sheep and Goat dewormer which all have body temperatures of somewhere around 102.5 F.

Its also been shown to be effective in fish tanks for many species of fish in the treatment of round worms. Including cold water fish like goldfish and KOI ..
http://www.koivet.com/a_levamisole_tramisol_koi_wormer.html

Hth,
al

[DonMD]

Al,

I got that information from Charles Harrison at: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html, where I am buying some levamisole. Here's what hetold me:

Discus keepers keep their water too warm for Levamisole treatment also. Nothing over 78F until it's over. It really stresses the fish and they are already in enough stress. He also said: Levamisole is the absolute best for deworming Discus, it is the only Nematode cure which doesn't have to be eaten and it kills the intestinal parasites from the inside tissues of the fish. No other medication will do that.

So, that's why I wanted to find out if you agreed with his caution about the temperature. Apparently not. Thanks.


Don,
I don't know where that info came from but evidence to the contrary is its used a pig, sheep and Goat dewormer which all have body temperatures of somewhere around 102.5 F.

Its also been shown to be effective in fish tanks for many species of fish in the treatment of round worms. Including cold water fish like goldfish and KOI ..
http://www.koivet.com/a_levamisole_tramisol_koi_wormer.html

Hth,
al

[Tankster]

Al,

I got that information from Charles Harrison at: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html, where I am buying some levamisole. Here's what hetold me:

Discus keepers keep their water too warm for Levamisole treatment also. Nothing over 78F until it's over. It really stresses the fish and they are already in enough stress.

I am fairly new here but I would think keeping your Discus in 78f would be deadly stressful.

[dirtyplants]

Never mind found it on ebay.

[yogi]

This is a really informative link on using levamisole.

http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1

[dirtyplants]

Thanks Yogi! Nice bit of info.

[Nicolette]

Al or anyone else!-

I am planning to purchase 5-6 sub adults or adults for a BB 55 g tank from Discus Hans and am in the preparation stage of purchasing food and medication :) . I just bought Prohibit levamisole on Amazon.

1) What brand of Prazi do you use for your one QT treatment (I was thinking of using Hikari Prazi-Pro)?
2) What are your recommended water changes given the one Prazi and weekly levamisole treatments?
3) What specifically do you mean by a levamisole 24 hr bath- do you use carbon 24 hrs later after each treatment to remove it? and do you use carbon after the Prazi treatment?- if so, at what point?

Thank you for your invaluable input!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Nicolette,
I have not used Hikari Prazi pro, but I have read mixed reviews on it by others. When I use prazi, its pure Prazi.. you can get that at one of our sponsors here..
http://www.kensfish.com/cgi-kensfish/sb/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*14884f2aaab140560cc4d78 6&search_field=Praziquantel%20Powder

You should follow the MFG directions on its use.

Personally I do large water changes daily on all my new discus stock so by necessity I have to redose daily after my water changes.

When we say a "bath" in treatments it means you add the medicine and leave it in the water for X amount of time. Then remove it by either water changes or carbon or both. I really rely on water changes as its quicker and rarely use carbon, but carbon will work.

Please note that the info I post here is what I do, its not hard fast rules. Theres many variations out there.

You should also talk with Your supplier as to what they recommend and follow their advise when you can.

You may want to read this...
http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/freshwater_parasites_intro.shtml
It will give you the dosing of various medications as advised by Fish Pathologists at The University of Florida.

Also you may want to visit Discustoday.info (http://Discustoday.info) and read some of the articles I put there.

Hth,
al

[Nicolette]

I'll buy Ken's fish prazi- didn't see it on his website. Thanks for the help!

[musicmarn1]

QT bullying? If too few fish in QT, your thoughts??

[treemanone2003]

Is it necessary to conduct WC's on a fully cycled QT that is waiting for new arrivals ? Parameters are as follows :
pH 6.8

Ammonia 0

Nitrate 0

Temp 86°

If so, what % is advised ? Also, QT has all it's own "tools" so to say. I would think not but I don't know it all.

[pcsb23]

QT bullying? If too few fish in QT, your thoughts??Depends on the severity. There are a few things you can do. Dropping the temperature to no more than 28C (82f), isolating the bullying fish using a egg crate screen/sponge sheet or reducing the size of the qt tank to crowd them together (again you can use a sheet of sponge in the existing tank).


Is it necessary to conduct WC's on a fully cycled QT that is waiting for new arrivals ? Parameters are as follows :
pH 6.8

Ammonia 0

Nitrate 0

Temp 86°

If so, what % is advised ? Also, QT has all it's own "tools" so to say. I would think not but I don't know it all.
If you've fishless cycled the tank and recently changed the water no need to do it again. If there is any muck in the qt tank then for sure you can, it won't harm. As to having a set of tools for the qt tank, it is an absolute must - if you use the same nets/pipes/towels etc then you may as well not bother qt'ing :)

[treemanone2003]

Paul,
Thanks for the valuable help. That was a late night type and should've in fact read, " I think not about the WC, but I don't know it all ". One eye was closed and the other was looking for itself. As for the QT, it does have it's own everything. After reading from more experienced parties (Al, the NADA guidelines and so on) the necessity of a separate everything is essential in proper husbandry.

But while I'm here, let me throw this one out for anyone. If one decides to order from two sponsors with the same arrival date, can they all go into the same QT together ?

[Second Hand Pat]

But while I'm here, let me throw this one out for anyone. If one decides to order from two sponsors with the same arrival date, can they all go into the same QT together ?

I would personally QT them separately as they are from two different sources.

[musicmarn1]

bullying very severe though, very severe, guess just risk loosing a fish? anyone else had this problem

[pcsb23]

bullying very severe though, very severe, guess just risk loosing a fish? anyone else had this problemSo... didn't you read my suggestions?

... There are a few things you can do. Dropping the temperature to no more than 28C (82f), isolating the bullying fish using a egg crate screen/sponge sheet or reducing the size of the qt tank to crowd them together (again you can use a sheet of sponge in the existing tank)....

[musicmarn1]

So... didn't you read my suggestions?


terribly sorry on a device i missed it and thank you for this, of course egg crate ! i did drop the temp thank you so much for that to 82 and the QT is 30g and put some of barb cones in too, i believe its two males there used to be a group of four and they not used to being just two they are both pretty large too.

[pcsb23]

If it is 2 large fish then egg crate is a good solution ime, they may still do the stand off at the ok coral bit but won't be able to harm each other.

[treemanone2003]

I would personally QT them separately as they are from two different sources.

Thanks Pat. I didn't recall seeing this covered anywhere and figured it'd be good to throw out. As well, I just didn't know the answer.

[musicmarn1]

If it is 2 large fish then egg crate is a good solution ime, they may still do the stand off at the ok coral bit but won't be able to harm each other.


got egg crate in today , the one being bullied is leaning pretty bad poor bugger ugh, they were not used to being in a smaller group and i hope he will recover. he looks dark and leaning quite severely i take it thats stress. i saw them bounce back from shipping fairly quickly but because shipping was horrendous…..put me RIGHT off shipping fish ! we lost 50% of the group they were used to being in (small group only 4 of them) and it seems to have taken a huge toll. i had 4 tall structures (Thanks Barb :) ) for them to hide behind but in a 30g tall tank not so far to go before you can be chased down. was THIS close to throwing all four in together because loosing another fish so soon would be awful. these are awesome huge fish, any loss is a travesty.

so thank you for all and any suggestions !!! i lowered temp, got egg crate, added salt for fins/stress (first ever time adding salt, im very slow to medicate being a beginner i do a lot of research and asking first and two or three really trusted people on this forum said salt her up so i did ) sparse light feedings, clean clean clean water, cleaner than my domestic discus see lol !

got large large water changes with exact temp water and its a new uncycled QT tank so im super careful to keep it squeaky clean.

lets see how they do now, sigh.

[brewmaster15]

Paul,
Thanks for the valuable help. That was a late night type and should've in fact read, " I think not about the WC, but I don't know it all ". One eye was closed and the other was looking for itself. As for the QT, it does have it's own everything. After reading from more experienced parties (Al, the NADA guidelines and so on) the necessity of a separate everything is essential in proper husbandry.

But while I'm here, let me throw this one out for anyone. If one decides to order from two sponsors with the same arrival date, can they all go into the same QT together ?
They should not go together , and even more relevent...

George, DO NOT BUY DISCUS FROM 2 SELLERS AT THE SAME TIME!!:) thats 3 sets of fish to maintain separation on....its too many chances for a problem. Discus are not going anywhere.. be patient when you get new fish...theres no rush.

hth,
al

[brewmaster15]

got egg crate in today , the one being bullied is leaning pretty bad poor bugger ugh, they were not used to being in a smaller group and i hope he will recover. he looks dark and leaning quite severely i take it thats stress. i saw them bounce back from shipping fairly quickly but because shipping was horrendous…..put me RIGHT off shipping fish ! we lost 50% of the group they were used to being in (small group only 4 of them) and it seems to have taken a huge toll. i had 4 tall structures (Thanks Barb :) ) for them to hide behind but in a 30g tall tank not so far to go before you can be chased down. was THIS close to throwing all four in together because loosing another fish so soon would be awful. these are awesome huge fish, any loss is a travesty.

so thank you for all and any suggestions !!! i lowered temp, got egg crate, added salt for fins/stress (first ever time adding salt, im very slow to medicate being a beginner i do a lot of research and asking first and two or three really trusted people on this forum said salt her up so i did ) sparse light feedings, clean clean clean water, cleaner than my domestic discus see lol !

got large large water changes with exact temp water and its a new uncycled QT tank so im super careful to keep it squeaky clean.

lets see how they do now, sigh.

Agree here with Paul... Egg crate separation...you can also add a piece of driftwood, or pottery next to the crate to give the stressed fish a place to hide should it not want to see its tankmates at times.

hth,
al

[treemanone2003]

They should not go together , and even more relevent...

George, DO NOT BUY DISCUS FROM 2 SELLERS AT THE SAME TIME!!:) thats 3 sets of fish to maintain separation on....its too many chances for a problem. Discus are not going anywhere.. be patient when you get new fish...theres no rush.

hth,
al

Thank you Al !!! That far exceeds the "hth" category. It was just a hypothetical question to put out to the experts. I have NO plans on doing any ordering of that caliber based solely on the two most popular constraints of both time and money (chuckle). As well my place isn't large enough for an SD expert to move in and assist. Yet haha.

I can barely keep myself together right now as I've just received my tracking info (fist pump) from Kenny. My whole QT set up is in place. Room, tools, cycled tank and so on. My female GSD is giving me a little 'tude since she's part feline and likes to bask in that room for morning sun but not allowed for a bit lol.

Thanks to all for all the wonderful help and pics will be up in about 27 hours.

[brewmaster15]

Not sure how this thread got unpinned...But I just pinned it again. Its a decent discussion that spans years... additionally, you'll find mor info here.. http://discustoday.info/

hth,
al

[musicmarn1]

Since I saw this again I will add that ALL fish are doing great since my post after shipping bullying trauma:) even poor beat up tefe, while still has one blip on eye is clear, eating and growing, yey so ty again to everyone for suggestions and help

Just got new wilds in today, stressed but Im not :p I know what to do:)

[Uncle Sam's Discus]

is it okay to mix furan 2 and general cure for QT?

[TfnG]

Just wanted to confirm the recommended QT procedure from a few pages back. I've never de wormed and been meaning to for a while. I have 9 more adults on the way and they will be in their own tank for QT.

Anyway, if I read right I need enough Praziquantel to dose daily for 3-4 days
And I need enough Levamisole to dose daily for about 2.5 weeks total?

I will do daily 50-75% water changes daily so nearly a full re dose daily...right?

[Pardal]

Al
Someone said once that a smart person learns from his/her mistakes but a wise one learn from the ones others make. Although I am not completely exempt for mistakes in the past . I am following your quarantine procedures "Discus today" really close with some twist of course. I got a group of wilds from Johns snookn21 , they were healthy but a little skinny. The first day they went to clean water with some rooi bush tea to color the water brown , no lights, no food.
I did a little thing different on treating for something specifics this time instead of salt or methylene blue I gave them an antibiotic bath for 24 hours of nitrofurazone as I saw some fin damage on the edges even on the cardinal that accompanied the discus.
Pat suggest ammonia burn, so I follow her advice and went back to clean water and follow proper quarantine procedure. they are on week 2 with prazipro neither to said they are doing great eating like pigs anything I throw to them that is flakes, tetra color bit, frozen Mysis shrimp , my seafood mix " for my joy" and especially their last meal dinner which is your freeze dry black worms .
Out of the four there is one that although eating stills remains skinny ( this is my Charlie brown ) nobody fault even John say are you sure want it? but I took it any way.
eh it has to be a runt in every litter:) I guess and he is kind of a bully too, let see what happens we still on week two.
Anyway thanks for great guidance and of course your FDBW something every serious discus keeper/breeder should have .

without wax
Julian

[elbeeaz]

Hey Al --- I recently read your incredibly helpful Quarantine post (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=quarantine) and have a question for you. Your original post was in 2002 and I wonder if you still recommend the same protocol that you did then. I'm gearing up for some new Discus and would love to see if any of your recommendations have changed since then. Thank you so much!

[djdirte]

okay.. im a little bit hazy on how to 'prepare' a quarantine/hospital tank.

lets say i have my main tank with my fish, and one displays some symptoms that may require quarantine/medication.

i plan on having a 20g stored away for this purpose, but do i have to have it cycled and ready? or when i need it, pull it out, fill it with water(aged/up to temp), thow a small sponge filter/heater in there, and proceed quarantine procedures?

also, i understand increased quantity/water changes are definitely a must. in relation to re-dosing whichever medication, lets say i change 50% of the water daily during qt, do i redose for the full tank amount? or just re-dose for the amount of water changed?

also, pertaining to juveniles vs adults, is there a certain level of extra precaution i need to take as far as medicating?

admittedly, in all my years of keeping tanks, both salt and freshwater, ive never quarantined a fish. ive had few sick ones(luckily) and whenever i'd get a sick fish, i would usually dose the whole tank, which obviously cost quite a bit, and typically my fish would die anyways.

[djdirte]

anyone care to chime in? lol

[ClayT101]

Hi all,
Just saw this and thought I would update. I do much of what I always have done.. though I do tailor it a bit different depending on the condition the fish come in...

For those interested..I had done several Discus Disease and Health Presentations over the years... The following are from a few pages of that presentation. HTH, al

Suggested Quarantine Procedures...
Receive fish: Place into a clean tank with aged (well aerated/pH stable warm water (85-87F). Use a well cycled bio filter.
Week One: Many Frequent water changes, observe fish behavior, and treat for anything specifically noted******. Be sure all fish are eating well and passing normal feces.
Week Two: Prophylactic deworming with Praziquantel for tape worms, several days latter deworm with general dewormer (levamisole) added to water as 24 hour bath
Week Three: Repeat Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Four: Let rest, nothing but water changes.
Week Five: Re-dose with Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Six: Quarantine is over if the fish are looking healthy and eating well and are not to be mixed with existing stock. If these are to be mixed with existing stock..add least favorite of existing stock (aka Test fish) to new fishes stock.
Week Six-Week Eight: Observe new stock and test fish. If all is well, most likely safe to mix all fish.
**** important note

Quarantine Common Sense:
Maintain complete separation of new stock from existing livestock.
Use separate nets, hoses, buckets, and siphons for each quarantine tank.
Separate rooms are much safer than in room quarantines.
Perform all maintenance on new stock’s quarantine tank after you are done with all existing tanks.
Wash hands and arms thoroughly after working in tanks.
Maintain optimum water quality, less stress means healthier fish
Tank should have a fully cycled bio-filter. Quarantining a group of fish is not the time to be cycling a tank!!!
Be vigilant… catching and treating a problem early on is better than latter when it may be harder or impossible to treat.

Brews Top 11 Discus Health Issues
1. Chemical Poisoning: Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, heavy metals (ex. copper and iron), Medications. Suggested treatment…clean water and lots of it!
2. Dissolved gases: Low dissolved oxygen or high dissolved C02/nitrogen etc. Suggested treatment ...age and aerate water.
3. Improper Shipping and Handling Techniques: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying only from reputable ones.
4. Improper care of Discus at Vendor’s Shop: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying from reputable ones.
5. Well meaning but inappropriate or inaccurate advice. Suggested course of action…Check references…information abounds in the internet and pet shops, both good and bad info.
Improper care of Discus on the part of the hobbyist. To keep any fish, a basic knowledge of species requirements and needs exists…Discus require a bit more than basic knowledge. Suggested treatment…Learn as much as you can!!
7. Poor Tank Hygiene Syndrome: Suggested treatment….Be less stingy with the water changes and maintenance.
8. “Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Syndrome” A fish that is sickly or poor quality when you buy it isn’t going to miraculously turn into a beautiful specimen. Suggestion..start with obviously healthy stock, not obviously sickly or low grade stock.
9. Hobbyist Mediated Pandemic: Occurs when a hobbyist recklessly acquires many specimens in a short period of time from multiple sources…mixing these together with existing stock then leads to Immune Overload..aka..sick fish. Suggested treatment….Learn patience and adhere to a sound Quarantine plan!!
10. Nutritional deficiencies…Largely unknown how this affects Discus specifically.. But what we do know is that every animal needs an adequate diet.. Suggestion…feed a varied diet to your discus of quality foods.

And finally…… Number 11!!!!


11. Gill flukes, external and internal protozoans, nematodes, bacterial infections, viruses, “plagues”etc…..

Why is this one listed last in a talk about Discus Diseases and health you may ask?…

Because! If you pay attention to the first 10 conditions mentioned you may not even need to worry about number 11! A healthy fish that has all its needs taken care of and is not stressed has an innate advantage when dealing with diseases and illness..

This is good information. I will go with this. Thanks Al!

[fcarullo77]

Hi all,
*I know many of us have posted on this in the past, or *seen posts on it. *Heres my question though. * *What is your quaranteen procedure for new fish? *When this post is done here, I'll move it the disease section, so the more detail the better....it may help someone out in the *future...

Heres my QT procedure....
1. No matter who the breeder, or seller is. I isolate the fish a minimum of 6 weeks. *All equipment is dedicated *to the QT setup.
2. When I first receive the fish *They are *dipped in methylene blue and placed in a tank that has *salt at *concentration of 1-2 tablespoons /10 gal. This helps them deal with stress.
3. If there are any signs of bacteria or fungus, they get an increase in the salt to 1 tablespoon/ 1 gal water + furan 2 until the probelm clears.
4. dewormed *with a tape worm specific medicine-praziquantel

Once eating....
5 fed *medicated gel food containing panacur * for 1week, longer if I suspect worms.
6. fed a medicated food, with metronidazole to deal with internal protozoans

7. externals parasite are dealt with using formalin , fluke tabs, *clout, or potassium Permanganate.

8. *I ALWAYS *Assume Flukes...the gift that keeps on giving... currently I have found 3 weeks *of treatment with Flubendazole *or prazi to be the most effective, and safest treatment .

at the end of 6 weeks *I take a cull from my other tanks and add it to the QT *tank This tells me if the new fish are safe *to mix with mine, and tells me if mine are safe to mix with them.

*I'd be real interested to see what you all do and why?

take care,
al

Al, I like your suggestions but I plan on ordering 5 juvenile Discus soon (2 - 2.5"). My question: is it safe for Discus that young?

[Adamski77]

Old thread but full of good information. I have related question regarding quarantine... obviously most of the times we quarantine fish (discus) and this post has tones about it... but how you quarantine snails? I just bought some assassin snails to help me little bit with other little guys in my tank... have them currently in quarantine tank... but my question is what am I looking for in terms of snails? ... and what the treatment would be like? The same as fish?

Appreciate any advise.

[brewmaster15]

Unfortunately snails are not something you can really treat. The most you can do is keep them separate a few days to be sure they are alive and well before adding..

Snails also pose a problem as they often act as secondary hosts for parasites that infect fish and mammals. Its just the nature of the beast.

[brewmaster15]

Adam,
I should also add that most snails tolerate metronidazole and praziquantel so in theory you could treat them with that to deal with potential parasites. Some medications like fritz paracleanse have both meds. Im not really sure how effective or safe these meds are with snails.
Al