Additional info on Prazi and flubenole...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
 I have been emailing  back and forth to someone with a lot of experience with prazi. This person used to be very active on the discus forums years ago and is not any more, but still tunes in from time to time.  He  has given me permission to use the information  we have discussed , and I am sharing that with you now, because I think it highly valuable and well worth looking into and experimenting on.  His  name is unimportant as I am only giving  this information from the point of view of another experienced  hobbyist. I think it is for us to try and  gather additional info here thru our experiments.

  Please keep in mind that with most meds that we use on our fish.    Little is truely known  as to the side effects and  even the modes of action as many drugs were developed for use in  other animals, or just have not been fully characterized. When we are faced with an illness we often want it cured and go with what the most popular treatment. we should do so, but cautiously...

okay  here  we go,.... from an experienced hobbyist......
Al,
Prazi is every bit as effective (if not more so) against Flukes as Flubenol, but more importantly you are setting yourself up for  a lot of grief by suggesting Flubenol without some accompanying warning.  Many people, including myself, have had Discus end up dead while treating with Flubenol.  There are enough cases of this by experienced hobbyists that it can't be written off as mistaken overdosing. On the other hand it doesn't happen that often so its not a well known phenomenon. The best I can figure is that certain Discus are hypersensitive or allergic to Flubenol. I'm not saying don't recommend it, because most of the time it works well and is relatively inexpensive, just suggesting you be careful in your wording.

As far as Prazi goes…… I did a lot of microscope research about 6 yrs ago on the effectiveness of Prazi against gill Flukes.

Taking fluid scrapings from inside the gills of adult Discus I was able to see
several live Flukes with the characteristic double hooks just as pictured in
Untergasser's "Discus Health". After a 48hr Prazi treatment I again looked at
gill scrapings. This time I saw lots of hooks with no bodies. There were never any living Flukes seen, only the hooks of what was a fluke. I did this several times over a year and with several fish; always with the same results. When I  began researching Prazi I found two important facts. First it is used in a human medicine "Biltricide" for treatment of blood flukes that humans contract in tropical waters. This disease is Shistisimosos (sic) and is a real problem in tropical areas.

Prazi is extremely safe....A few years ago I was a very active member of the Forums. Started out with Discus L and then was one of the first on Raffaele's forum We discussed all these meds back then, just as you are now. When I began ……... people were losing whole broods of fry to Flukes and Prazi was the only med that was always safe even in high overdoses. Tapeworms were a secondary consideration because they may be ugly but they're not life threatening. I finally left the forums.  

I really don't consider Flubenol as a viable alternative.
Two other negatives about Flubenol; it takes  7 - 10 days to start working which is literally a lifetime to an infested fry, and it is a very dose sensitive med.

All the information I've ever seen (which BTW isn't much when it comes to
treating fish with Prazi) is that Prazi does Not kill Fluke eggs. That's why
the two treatments are needed. I honestly don't remember if Flubenol kills
the eggs or not, but if it did that would be a plus for it. There's not much
more I know that you don't. As I think you mentioned somewhere Prazi
ruptures the Fluke skin, something about a Calcium ion exchange going on
there. A parasitologist I work with said she was pretty sure there are close
similarities between Fluke and Tapeworm skin cell structure. She did
research with bird parasites and was quite familiar with Prazi but was
surprised to hear that it could be used in water to treat fish parasites.
I was very interested to hear that you used acetone as a solvent. When I
first discovered acetone was a solvent I did some Fluke tests to see if the
Prazi was still effective. I did get the same positive results but I really
only did one test and I've been trying to get some more feedback from people  that do use the acetone, just for confirmation.

Feel free to use our discussions however you see fit. If I tell you I did a
certain experiment then its first hand knowledge, although the experiment
will probably not meet scientific standards with controls etc. and if its
not firsthand knowledge then its just hearsay or my opinion.


   

So if a person wanted to use this medication (prazi), I know there is an e-mail of a person you can get it from. (don't have the e-mail....but would like it! ;D) *Do you just e-mail him, and go from there. *Is there any OTC places online to puchase the stuff? *If you wanted to keep it on hand, does it have an extended shelf life....

Curious...I have not ever used this before.

Terri

Well I for one Do not Buy it!
I have over dosed many times With flu never lost a discus from it! as far as Prazi goes mine must be cut!
never works even after a 3 week treatment. Many Others claim the same. JMO

[Ryan]

Terri,

If you're looking for Prazi, most of us get it from Barry Illman, billman@citynet.net. He'll help you figure out how much you need and let you know what the cost is. You also get an info sheet on the dose to use per gallon and instructions on how to add it to food. If you're not looking for Prazi and I misread your message... ignore this. lol.

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

Hi Doc,
  I  didn't either.  But I am neutral now. I need more info, and need to do more research.... at this point its just another hobbyists point of view.  I do have an idea  though that if it works as described*( and many have posted that it appeared to initially work), the key to its success may be  more frequent applications. If it is dosed every week , I think there may be a window because  of the way there are multiple generations  of gravid (fertile adults) in each fluke.  
  to eradicate it may only take a daily dose  for a week , but at a much less conc. Less conc because the med doesn't need  to get into the fish, just the water, and on the gills.  Pure speculation on my part, but I am going to try  it.. I'll probably go at a dose of 20-25% daily for a 1 week.I thought I read some where the life cycle is in the days range, not weeks.
 Maybe the doc  and  I can do some independent studies here? I'll call you about it sometime soon.
  take care, al

Ok Me To!
Neutrel I have talked to a few high up guy's that run major public aquarium's They swear by Prazi in its useof killing Flukes on all Fish. They Claim Us Discus people Change To much water. Not giveing The med Time to work! Also To add They Preach Not to change Water for 4 to 5 Days After First dose. I myself will try The prazi in this Way1 I'll Keep you Posted!
TakeCare
Cary

P.S Brew I could Not find The link!

[joanr]

Hi Cary,

So did you every try the Prazi without a w/c for 4-5 days? If so the results? I'm going to have to treat these guys sooner or later during their q-time.

Joan

[lkleung007]

Hi Gang!!

Interesting discussion about prazi.  I have been thinking about treating my guys with prazi. also as I think they may have flukes.  My concern has to do with water changes!!  If you were to continue to feed the Discus as usual; then how can one go a day or more without water changes?!

What is your typical regimen when it comes to using Prazi.???

Regards, Lester

[Pat_in_NC]

The simple answer to the waterchange problem is to treat like you would doing a salt treatment--do a 30-50% water change after two days but add more Prazi to make up for the changed water. Then wait two days and do regular water changes again (every day or every other day according to your usual routine).  Then as Al said you must repeat this treatment (i.e. treat 2days-w/c replace prazi for changed water--w/c as usual for one week--then repeat exactly) one week following the end of the previous treatment to kill off flukes that hatched during the interval.
After reading this discussion (and getting a big batch of Prazi in) I think I will try this myself next week as fish are showing some signs of flukes again--about 3 months since the last prazi treatment (which I only did for 2 days to look for tapeworms).  

Very usefull discussion of prazi!

Pat

[Joao]

Hi folks,
Let's see, so if the fish rubs himself in something, not often, the gills working at the same rate, and there's none closed, it's not a sign of flukes ,right? just because the fish rubs once a while that mean nothing, am i right???????

Well I have one red turquoise that has been chased from one guy all the time, now I got 4 more discus , they alltoghether 6 in a 65 gal. it looks that the other guy doesn't bother him much now, but he got sick, at least it looks like, is allways away from the others, doesn't want to be in the dispute, his dorsal line are very visible and is not eating as I can see, I put the food and he doesn't eat, I don't know if he's scared or what. While ago I treat him and another w/ discoworm, and they pass tapeworms, but he was passing something different, like white cottony feces, like in small parts and thicker than the tapeworms.
So, WHAT'S this, it's a kind flukes, cappillaria??????? how should I treat him, is not very active and not eating his size about 3", Please help!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you.

Joao

[Joao]

Sorry, one more thing , his dorsal fins are clsed ,not all the times but more than the others.

Thank you.

[Carol_Roberts]

Rubbing two or three times a day is not a problem - 2 or 3 times an hour porbably is.

You had two discus and the Red Turk was harassed, so you bought 4 more discus. With 6 discus the RT is not harassed as much, but is still not eating and is hanging back in the corner. The RT also passed funny looking feces and his fins are clamped from time to time. The other 5 discus are fine.

If it has been at least two weeks since the worm treatment I would try metronidazole for intestinal flagellates. You can treat the whole tank or you can move the RT to a hospital tank.

Metro is dosed at 400 - 500 mg per 10 gallons with the temperature raised to 92 degrees. (add extra air). Everyday, prior to a dose you must change 50% of the water with aged 92 degree water. Some people dose every 8 hours for 3 days. Others dose once a day for 3 - 5 days. Keep the water temp up for a week or so after last dose then slowly lower temp one or two degrees per day.

Feed favorite foods (like bloodworms) very sparingly until he starts to eat. Keep tank clean.

[Joao]

Hi Carol,
thanks for the response, so metro is to recover or to kill the worms, because is still passing those white slimmy feces in small pieces it's not like normal poo, it looks like small oval white feces, is this capplaria????what else it could be, I think I have to treat the all tank since the fish are alltogether right?
Before I bought 5 juvenils three months ago, then after one month I bought this two turquoise, so I saw some fish not eating and in the back of the tank ,so I started treating them w/ discoworm for worms, and the pass tapeworms and that kind a white poo different of the tapeworms, but two young die w/ their stomach or belly looking like small bumps, maybe worms???? or they couldn't expell because their weakness, so the r.t. got the same problem but is bigger than the other one, but I see that is stressed even today he pass a small white fece and the b.t. pass tapeworm today , but it has been three weeks after the second treatment, and he's still passing it!!!!!!.
So I bought four more discus the same size the b. and r.t., and after two days I took the three small one and put it in a small 10gal tank, what suprises me is this fish has 4 months old in my tank and they still the same size, ofcourse they don't eat much, they're like 2", and I don't know wich treatment I should use for them, I put food in the tank and they don't eat!!!!!!
Carol you asked if I used metro, never used, should I use in the big tank and in the small, the four discus that I got I know they're healthy, they're from Barbara Newell, wich has a wonderfull fish very well treated.

Sorry , but I told you the full story, so that way you can better understand the problem, and I don't have many exp. like you.

Thanks for the help.

Joao

[Carol_Roberts]

HI Joao:

I wonder if you could be seeing disolved or partially digested lumps of worms being passed? Before you do anything else you might want to add some epsom salt to the tank @ 1 or 2 teaspoons per 10 gallons. it will not hurt your fish or the biofilter and may help the fish expell those globs.

Hexamia is usually long, thin strings of mucus (as long as your finger) - not lumps of mucus. Is the white poop as small as pieces of rice?

[Joao]

Hi Carol,
You bet, that's the right thing like rice poos but white.
I start treating the small tank w/ metro, and I was going to do the same to the 65 gal where I got my 6 discus of 4" each.
Which treatment you suggest, I'm going to be waiting for your response.

thanks Carol.

Joao

[Carol_Roberts]

With dogs when you see tape worms segments in the stools they look like little grains of rice. Perhaps these are segments of tapeworms or another worm entirely. . . I do not have a lot of experience with worming discus.

You live near JimmyL and Barb . . . have they been able to advise you? JimmyL is especially knowlegable about discus and I know Barb has experience with medications also. Perhaps they have treated something similar?

[Barb Newell]

Hi Joao, if the new little fish that you got from me the other day were put in with these sick ones, unfortunately your new fish may get sick as well :'(. It's probably too late to QT now if they've already been exposed.

Have you spoken to Jimmy about the white globs that your other fish are passing, he is very knowledgeable. I'm wondering if they're roundworm pieces being passed. You said that you used DiscoWorm a couple of weeks ago and they passed tapeworms, maybe they had round worms as well. If they are passing roundworms, I've heard that it is a waiting game, try to keep them alive while they pass them and that it could take as long as 1 - 2 months.

I would definitely get your new fish separated from the sick ones and from the fish that is chasing them and possibly deworm them now. I have used Piperazine and it works well.

Barb

Joao: Barb is right. It's round worms. I beleive Discoworm has Piperazine in it to kill the round worms. Somehow all discus have some in their digestive system. It never ends. Once they're dead and the new one will take over their place within a month. They are so thick and swell up when take in water after death. That cause most of the bloatings of discus. Epsom salt will not work due to it's size. Without any scientific reason. Just by experience. Tetracycline very often will get it out. sometime in a cacoon with a size of an almond nuts from an adult discus. Fish under this condition will not eat for a month, skinny with bright red eye.Rarely die due to this problem. If the bloating is getting too big and start affacting their balance. Drastic medical procedures has to be taken STAT. You have to net the fish and hand squeeze the blockage out with downward motion by 2 fingers. Don't worry about the fish. They are as tough as nails. Keep doing it PRN. (if necessary). You'll safe your fish.HTH
Jimmy.

[Barb Newell]

Joao; I would get your new four fish out ASAP and put them in their own tank, treat with piperazine in the water OR Disco-Med (which is levamisole and piperazine) in the food, maybe you can stop it before it takes over.

Barb