PH and Archived Info

[Ardan]

PH and Archived Info

PH is a water parameter measuring how acidic, neutral or alkaline the water is. 7.0 is neutral, lower than 7 is acidic, higher than 7 is alkaline. PH stability is affected by the amount of buffers (KH, carbonates) that are in the water.
An acidic ph can change ammonia, NH3, into nontoxic ammonia, NH4. Acidic ph can also inhibit bacteria.
Lowering the ph can be accomplished through the use of acids or peat moss. The higher the buffering of the water, the more difficult it is to lower the ph. When adding acid, usually if there is any buffering in the water, the ph will “bounce” back up after several hours. If there is not enough buffering the PH could “crash”(drop rapidly and far). Adjusting and aging the water before adding to the aquarium is best for stability to the aquarium environment. Aging the water, with aeration for 24 hrs., will get rid of CO2 in the water and the PH will rise.(if it is unstable PH)(CO2 is carbonic acid)

Some previous discussions at Simply Discus are at the following links

PH Balance
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=143
PH
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=210
PH Meters
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=401;star t=0
Best Products for Lowering PH
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=428
Back to Basic Conductivity and PH
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=439
PH Monitors
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=750
Quick PH Question
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=795
PH Shock During Water Changes
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1141
Breeding Tank Water Chemistry
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1169
AC and PH
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1190
Soft Water and Low PH
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1198
Stable and Proper H2O for Discus
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1199
PH Changing
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1211
When is PH too Low?
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1212
PH High PH Low Where do I Go
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1223
Definitions of Interest About Water Related Items
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1185
Effects of a Large Drop in pH on Fish
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1146
Can Discus live comfortable in Ph 8
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=107;star t=0
Ardan

[Liz_Streithorst]

The product I've been using to lower my pH says on the label that it contains sulfuric acid. Would it be OK to use battery acid, which is sulfuric acid, in the tank? This sounds like a terrible thing to do but may be it's OK.

Liz

[Ardan]

Hi Liz,
I would be concerned about purity and concentration (strength) of the battery acid.
Ardan :sun:

[ronrca]

These articles are great, Steve!

A question though, how does pH affect discus? I know what pH means but not sure how it really affects the discus. Im curious as to how it affects discus at 7.8 and at 6.0 with gh/kh being constant. Im adjusting my tap water ph (in a separate container) from 7.8 after 1-2days to around 6.0-6.5.

Another question is about the plonk method described in one of the posts. Is it really true that you can instantly go up but not down? Is that because of the osmoregulation or however its called?

Thanks!

[Ardan]

HI,
WIth PH , stability is most important. (best not to use chemicals unless necessary) At lower ph, generally you get a better hatch rate if the fish are spawning. Also at low ph bacteria don't grow as well (including the biological filter bacteria), low ph doesn't usually allow parasites to prosper either.
Otherwise discus do well between ph 5.5 and 8.0 approx. (some keep them in higher and lower ph too).
hth
Ardan :sun:

[ronrca]

Thanks Ardan!
By no means am I a experienced discus keeper only having started with discus year and a half ago with some below average stock that I requested just to try out. Of course, these fish are so wonderful that even these below average fish are beautiful.

However, depending on who I talk to, I get different answers. Some say just leave the ph at 7.8 (aged), others say adjust down to at least 7.0, if not 6.5. Kind of gets confusing. By using the buckets, I can monitor the ph everytime so ph will not be jumping around much. But then again I will be used chemicals which I dont feel that comfortable either. At a lower ph, I have heard that the colors of much brighter and the discus more comfortable.

What do you and everyone recommend?

Ron,

The pH in my tanks is 7.5. For breeders I use RO water to lower it. I used to use HCl to get all tanks down to about 6.8 but realized that it was unnecessary. It's useless, in my opinion, to use HCl for breeders since it sends the conductivity skyrocketing and my growouts do well in the 7.5 water. So why make life difficult on yourself? If I were you I'd focus on getting a container that can hold all water necessary for water changes and pump it out rather than using a bucket. And the storage water doesn't even need to be near your tank(s). I pump it 50 feet to refill my 180g tank.

Dave

[ronrca]

Thanks Dave,
I guess Im more or less convinced. Im wasnt very clear on my 'buckets' but they look like huge buckets (Home Depot). They can hold 20G and I have 2 of them. Im getting a pump that can empty 20G in less than 5 minutes (418G/H @ 4' lift). Its a submersible, varible flow rate pond pump (Rio 1700). I guess I'll just age the water and let it go.

Another question comes to mind now, how long to age the water? 1-2 days (gets rid of C02 and chlorine) or longer because of Chloramines? Or just use Seachem Prime to take care of it (only thing is that Im getting ammonium and how does that effect the nitrites/nitrates?).

[Smokey]

Hi Ron; forget the rio pump.. to small, to little flow..

Get a real pump..750 gal/Hr.@18 feet..threaded output (1/2 " npt,, fits all cpvc threads and fittings )... sorry I can not remember the brand name..very popular pumps, built tough... Henry @ DAD'S Fishroom sells them (433 - 3474).

Go to the Italian Bakery on 97 st. and 105 ave. and get the food import barrels (40 gallon size)..great barrels ($20.00); remember - I NEED TWO ALSO..) FIND THEM AND i WILL SEND YOU THE CASH ! O. K. !! we'll figure how to get them to me, later..

The city water needs to be treated, I prefere to use NH/CL . I used to, when I lived in the same city, add the water, to the barrel, at the temp I needed; 90'F. ; add the decloronater, aireate for 15 to 30 minutes, or what ever, and slowly add to the conditioned water to the discus tanks . You can never have too much water on hand !!

Henry can also supply the NH/CL . It is getting hard to find .

P.s. I got my discus yesterday, all nine of them, dispite all the problems with the rough shipping handlers .

April's and Jason's boxes were damaged . Fish were lost .
My box looked like they kicked it all the way from Australia to Vancouver !! But never leaked ... No fish loss...

Take care.

Smokey

[ronrca]

Get a real pump..750 gal/Hr.@18 feet..threaded output (1/2 " npt,, fits all cpvc threads and fittings )... sorry I can not remember the brand name..very popular pumps, built tough... Henry @ DAD'S Fishroom sells them (433 - 3474).
Too late! I have never seen any 'real' pumps at Henrys yet. Thats unless he can order them in or something. Are you thinking of Little Giant Pumps btw? The Rio isnt bad, 180G/Hr @ 6 feet and for filling my 30G works quite well. However, when I move downstairs and build a fishroom, I already know that I will have to buy a 'real' pump.

About the barrels! I think Im blessed! A couple blocks from me there is an older couple selling 'rain' barrels (45G and 50G) for $20 a piece. I picked up 2 a week ago, one is in the 'fishroom'. I do plan on getting the second one also and connecting them together at the bottom. I can always pick up more whenever. Let me know!

Treating city water! At the moment I use Prime from Seachem! What is NH/CL? Sounds like ammonia/chloride?

Any pics of the new discus?

[Smokey]

Ron;
NH/CL is made by Tetra; AquaSafe NH/CL..1OO ml treats about 1900 to 3800 liters. Yup, netualizes both, good stuff..
Henry probley stoped caring the " Supreme " pumps, they are about $145.00 or so; more than an average hobbiest is willing to spend; pond people may carry them, because of the large output..

Sorry no pics..no digital camera !!! yet.
The discus are doing fine, settling in ...I am doing lots of water changes to keep them happy; the bio-filters have not caught up to their output.

Did I mention the Edmonton Aquarium Club's auction ; edmontonaquariumclub.com ; is comming up in October, wish I could make it !!!
Dave had mentioned discus were going cheap at the Calgary auction; same at edmonton, perhaps..everybody is selling off their summer born discus.

Hey rio's are o.k.

Smokey

[no1joey]

??? omg wat is going on ph 7.5 are u serious ?! please explain - mine is some where around 6.3 'ish.... !

[nokoto]

Good read yet again

OK I've an RO unit and make my own water up, I've notice the change if I leave it to stand too, but if I do it near on straigt away I get my PH dead on 7PH because I thought discus needed to be below 7.ph will discus breed at 6.PH (just a YES/NO) will be cool...

Since I'm concerned alitte though I've been doing it ths way for over a year now, the bog wood however pulls down the PH, even if I put KH+ in to build it up so... I guess the only good thing is that the bog wood regulates the PH automatic so to speak.

If I leave the RO water to stand, the put air into it and the PH rises I still have to drop it so why let it stand... if you put KH+ in as I do to get the desired PH...

Complex one I know

Thanks peeps

Wayne

[Carol_Roberts]

HI Wayne:
You want a mix of RO and tap to keep the KH stable so the pH does NOT drop too low.

Don't worry about trying to get pH below 7.0. My discus lay eggs in 7.8 +. The eggs will not hatch in hard (lots of minerals) water, but they will hatch in pH 7.6 (alkyline) water.

You don't want your water too soft because the pH will crash.

[nokoto]

Thanks Carol

I add my minerals to my water 1.25ml, this is the info given out by sera, they 5ml to every 20 Gallons, I made my own measure since you can by them, in breif here's hows.

You need a Syringe that does 1.ml down you can get them from hostail etc... and a baby 5ml plastic spoon used for cough mixture, on adults or kids, your need a pen handy too, put some cling film from the kitchen, around the spoon so the top has a straight bit of firm accross it, holding this tight, make a hole at the top in the film up by the handle for the syringe to go in, fill the syringe up with tapwater 1ml, inject this in the spoon, add the remaining .25ml. Then hold up the handle in the air so what you should have is a level line of water going to the tip of the spoon. Mark the water line with a pen, ensure you do both side esle your have to do the above again. OK clean spoon, scratch from the water back with a bit of sand paper lightly, this is so the silcon can stick to it. On the tip put some Bluetac or some like that where the water was, then back fill the with silcon, and wait to set... Made to messure....

Back to you carol, the reason why don't like using tap water because it has phosphates in it I know some people add 10% to there RO, but whats wrong by the way I do it I'll messure the minerals in my RO but later and let you know.

Else I'm going to need a tester digital one ::)

Wayne

[sanmerah]

Hi everybody
Can anybody help me! I had a 180 galon, a 100 galon, a 55 galon, and a 20 galon tanks. I used tap water for all tanks. The tap water in my area (San Jose) is hard, PH is around 8. I use the electronic conductivity meter to test all the tanks. The conductivity in 180gl and 100gl is alot different with the 55gl and 20gl although the temp and PH almost the same. The 180gl had the wet dry filter, the 100gl had the big 2250 Ehiem canister filer, the 55gl had 2 sponge filter, and the 20gl had a sponge filter.
180gl: 1uS, PH 7.5, temp 85F
100gl: 1uS, PH 7.4, temp 85F
55gl: 914uS, PH 7.4, temp 88F
20gl: 1242uS, PH 7.4, temp 85F
The PH in all tanks are not stable. I tried to make it around 6.5 but it will go back to 7+ later.
Thank you
Huy

[Ardan]

Hi,
What is the KH? Carbonate hardness affects the ability to adjust ph.
Higher the KH, the harder to adjust.

Sounds like you have ph bounce due to higher KH. Not good for the fish to adjust the ph in the tank or have the ph bounce.

hth

[Carol_Roberts]

Do you have a lot of salt in one tank and not another? Have you calibrated your meter?

[sanmerah]

Thank you for your reply
I 've already calibrated my PH and conductivity meter . I had it about 3 months. Can you tell me how to measure KH?
Thanks again
Huy

[Carol_Roberts]

I use the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. It comes with a test tube that you fill with water. Then just count the number of drops from the KH bottle into the test tube and that is your degree of KH. Generally they are sold with a bottle of GH and KH both in the same kit.

[sanmerah]

Hi there
I 've just measured the conductivity of my 55gl and 20 gl tanks. They are only 1uS. Before yesterday, it was around 400uS. I changed water in both tanks yesterday. I left the water in the 30gl trash can overnight with aeration. I also put some salt in the tanks.
Like you thought, I thought something wrong with my conductivity meter, so I tested the tap water in the hose and bottle drinking water, it read the same as I 'd tested it before. Nothing wrong with my meter.
Can you tell me is there any problem if I keep discus with the conductivity only 1uS? Is there any problem if the conductivity changing too much like that? Do you think salt can decrease the conductivity?
Thanks

[Ardan]

Hi,
i don't think adding salt on a regular basis is necessary.

I think 1 ms is too low for discus. Is this RO water or what is your water source? Where do you live?

Anyway I think you need to add minerals to grow the discus. http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=1147
hth

[sanmerah]

Hi Ardan
I used tap water. I am in San Jose CA. The original conductivity in my tap water is around 600 uS. I have a confusion. Can you tell me mS mean microSeimens or miliSeimens? I read the article from : Discusgeo. Written by Adrian R. Tappin, http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6792
it said uS is microSeimens, mS is miliSeimens. He said he used a low conductivity of 70-100mS when breeding his discus. It make me so confusion!
I 've just done an experiment. After I put some salt into a cup of tap water, the conductivity dropped to 1uS.
Thanks

[Ardan]

Hi,
Its microsiemens. SOme abreviate ms, some uS.

Salt in tap water = 1 ms?? Confuses me too. Conductivity increases when more minerals in the water= the water conducts electricity better.

I would not add salt to the aquarium anymore unless a disease is present.
Monitor conductivity then and see what occurs over the next couple of wks as the salt concentration is decreased through wc's.

hth

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Hui, it sounds to me like your meter is going ABOVE 1000 uS(This is the correct MICROSIEMENS symbol with a little tail hanging down on the left side of the U) and does not read out anything higher than 999 due to the display only having 3 character spaces.....Thus you are getting the error reading of 1 that says the water is above 999uS. Make sure there is no air trapped in the area where the two electrodes are located at on the meter, as this might give you erroneous readings as well. Does your meter have 4 spaces, since one of the readings you posted was 1242 or can it be switched to mS readings as well ??? The correct symbol for MILLISIEMENS is mS, which is equal to 10 MICROsiemens since 1mS=10uS. The use of MICROsiemens is just a more precise measurement to use when taking samples of low conductance water rather than a generalization in increments of 10 with mS for VERY HIGH conductance readings where precision is not so important. If you had put some salt in a cup of tap water, which is probably really high conductance like mine here in Vegas, this would have INCREASED the mineral content to above the meter's top readout range(999) and sent it into an error readout of 1. What brand and mfg item number is it? HTH

Steve

[sanmerah]

Hi steve
I think you are right. I used Milwaukee C64 Smart Conductivity tester. Its specifications: Range 0 – 1999µS/cm, Resolution 1µS/cm, Accuracy ±2% Full scale
Temperature Compensation Automatic, 5 to50ºC
I think my meter had 4 digits because I 've tested one of my tanks and it showed 1242. I also tested bottle drinking water, it showed 040. The meter displayed only a number 1 (no zero) in the thousand place when I tested tap water with salt. I think it was above 1999µS/cm.
Thanks

[TuNa]

Hey guys :),
I'm new to this chat room, but not really that new to the hobbie. I have a 30 gallon planted discus aquarium. In it I have two male Leopard Discus, two female Red Dragon Discus, one male Pigeon Blood Discus, and 25 Neon Tetra's. My pH is around 6.7, Nitrite and Ammonia is undetectable, Nitrate is 12.5 mg/l, and the temperature is 82 F. I feed my Discus Granulated food, a beefheart mixture, and once a week I feed them daphina, and brine shrimp. I also add a number of different trace element for my Discus, and my plants. I do a 15% water change every day, and use Seachems prime to dechlorinate my tap water, and I use Seachem's Acid Buffer to lower the pH of the water since the pH of the tap water is 7.0. I am currently bringing my water of my tank down to a pH of 6.0 because I want my Discus to form into pairs. My question is: What is the ideal pH, and water temperature to breed Discus in?

[bernie82]

Forget about playing with the PH. At 7.0 from the tap you're quite fortunate. They'll pair off of just as well in your tap water. I'd advise you to up the water change to at least 30% a day and use water that's about 5 degrees below your tank temperature. That usually gets their attention.
You might to put their tank in view of a TV/VCR. I show my Discus a few "X" rated Porno's and it gets em going every time. LOL.
When they begin to spawn, call Randel for a RO unit. The eggs need soft water to hatch in.

[Carol_Roberts]

Your discus may be too crowded with 5 discus and 25 neons in your planted 30 gallon tank. I use 29 gallon tanks for breeding pairs.

I'd set up a bare bottom tank with a cycled filter and split your discus between two tanks to see if one or more pairs form. A 29 or 30 gallon tank is a good size for a pair and babies.

Your water may be just fine to raise babies. Hardness is more important than pH. I would not try to alter your pH.

[TuNa]

Hehe, so what your saying is that I should just keep my pH at 7.0 and not change it? But then what's the difference if the tank has a pH or around 6.0-7.0? And yah I think I'll look in to that porno thing, but I'll have to do that when my mom's outta the house or else this is what'll happen to me: :furious: :spank: :waaa: hehe ;) But I think that I'mm gonna get a larger tank arounf 200 gallons in size, then make 30% water changes on that everyday. That way I can get a hell of a lot more Discus! :) But I'll have to wait untile my my birthday comes, which is in november! :) And I also get more cash during a religious festival which is also in november! :) HAPPY DAYS! :bounce2:

[Smokey]

Howdy; Just some numbers I like to keep my discus tanks at:

Temperature = 85 - 89' F..

KH = ~ 45 ppm .

pH = 6.5 - 6.9

Nitrates = below 5 ppm. [ 3 ppm is w/c time] - which works out to about 40% every 24 hours or less - [ depending on the amount of food fed. Beefheart / bloodworms]

I have found - fry eat more food / more often and thus have a higher ammonia output. And usually a higher stock rate. [ the fry usually get 75% w/c's every day. or a w/c at 50% every 10 to 12 hours. The nitrates stay below 3 ppm.

HTH.

Smokey