Hope for planted people/Terry Fairfield

[Don_Lee]

Hi Everyone,

I met Terry Fairfield today! For those not familiar with Terry, he is a well regarded fish medication expert, and even has his own book published! In fact, for those of you who have purchased the DiskusBrief back issues, he was the author of an article related to garlic and its medicinal effects on discus.
Anyway, I was so excited to meet him. I was only able to speak with him for a few minutes, but he told me that he keeps discus. I asked him about planted tanks and discus, and he said his discus tanks look like a jungle! He said they are full of plants. Furthermore, he states that planted tanks are much more common in Europe, as he has visited Germany.
So, we are not all crazy! Let's keep trying, nothing is like a beautiful planted tank!

Don

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce2: :bounce2:

[ari_wh]

Hi Don :)

Good to hear!! Somehow I always feel guilty from having a planted tank for my discus.... but they seemed very happy and healthy in it, I don't see why I have to change it at all. It is good to see that I am not alone and others have succeded in keeping discus in planted tank as well.. ;D ;D

There is hope for all of us ;)

Regards, Ari :)

[Wahter]

Based on my visits to East Asia and from what Neil Frank (he was the editor of the Aquatic Gardener's Association journal for 10 years - http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/ ) has shown me in photos from his travels to Europe (including Russia), the US is really a step behind when it comes to planted aquariums.

I think it's mostly based that people in non-US countries seem to take keep aquariums more seriously than the typical American (after all, look how much some of the Dupla, Eheim, and Amano products cost, but those companies do stay in business). From what Neil Frank showed me, it's always very interesting to see what people in non-North American countries do to keep their fish and plants alive - some people are very resourceful!!!

Even Jack Wattley said in one of his articles, he thought that the aquarium shops in Europe are far better than the majority of shops here in the USA - the shops I visited in Hong Kong were more 'specialized' and smaller than the usual shop here - one store in Hong Kong had aquarium tanks full of discus on one side and on the other side, had tanks full of asian arowanas - no tetras, gouramis, catfish, barbs, rainbows, killies, plants, no supplies, not tanks, just discus and arowanas! Another shop just dealt with goldfish and plants (and plant supplies - books, substrates, CO2 equipment, etc...).

Just my observation on the subject.

Walter

Hi,
being a european: before i went into discusfish, i never heard of barebottom tanks. i even would have considered it a mistreatment of the fish. I still think it is, in a way. though my discusbreeding tank is bare, there still is duckweed and other floating plants.
in holland, nearly all aquariumshops have tanks with substrate and some plants, the only bare tanks i saw were discus (breeding) tanks, for which it serves a purpose and the tanks in a fish shop in bangkok when i was there.
regards,
martin

[daryl]

Don,
Terry is a freind of mine , see the world is a very small place
in regards to fish. Thats good for you he is right in rockford.
You have all the resources at your fingertips.
Talk to you later
Daryl

[Don_Lee]

Terri is a great guy, I mentioned you and he told me that you had been friends for years. What luck to have someone so knowledgeable right around the corner, and what a great guy! Everyone should buy his book RE: treating fish illness. I really got alot of hope about planted tanks from Terri, if someone that knowledgeable sticks with it it cannot be impossible or all bad!
Talk to you soon Daryl,

Don

[BroJack]

I've had both BB tanks and planted. I FAR prefer the planted tanks. I don't have to do as many water changes with the heavy planted tanks and my Discus are FAR more content and at home.

Wouldn't have it any other way any more. Not even for breeding!

[Don_Lee]

Great to have you here Brojack, you are my kind of guy! Great to have you here, please share your knowledge freely.

Don

[rafall]

I am new in business with only 1 (one) about 2.5" discus in my 55g tank.
The bottom is all sand (playsand flushed) I got about 10 plants in it (medium sizes as they are just growing) My discus looks happy to swim arround and pick some food sitting on the plants. If this one will do well for next couple days I will get him some companion. :D

[NoizChip]

I suppose I just got lucky with planted tanks and Discus. I started out with plants and Tetras because I liked the look and I knew the biology would take care of itself. Discus came a bit later and I never knew they were kept in bare tanks until my planted tanks were well established. I travel a bunch, so I tried to make an ecosystem that could sustain itself for a week without any tending. It seems to have worked and my Discus seem pretty happy. The only thing that I find more difficult is when I have to catch someone. There certainly are more places to hide in a planted tank!

Chip

[scottwheels]

LOL so true. I recently pulled all the tetras out of my planted tank to make room for more discus. Needless to say I still have tetras in my tank that found good hiding spots. I thought I'd got them all, and then another couple pop up from nowhere. ;D ;D ;D And I won't even try to catch the bristlenoses and clown loach - they stay in there until I break down the tank!!!

Cheers, Scott

[ronrca]

Interesting sort of topic. I guess I never really thought about it being a problem having discus in planted tanks. About a year and a half ago, I setup my 90G planted tank with the intention of getting discus. I have never really had a problem and like said before, never thought it to be a problem. I just assumed that fish and plants love each other (most fish anyways) since there nature habitat usually contains plants.

However, it is good to hear that Im not a 'different' sort of 'breed' and that there are many people that are doing the same. For a show tank, I would not want to have it any other way but a planted tank. I also keep cardinals, rams, gouramis together with discus and will try more sorts of fish. I love this hobby and it is soooo addicting.

[Gipper]

I am sorry Don, But there is NO HOPE for plant people!!!! HAhahahahahah

Gipper

[Don_Lee]

Hey Gipper, Tyler says that planted tanks are #1, haven't you heard?

LOL,

Don

[RAWesolowski]

When I decided to get back into discus, I was amazed at the numkber of hobbyists who insist on bare tanks. I was ready to re-think my decision until I started to research the question.

The internet was an incredible source of information. Can you imagine the smile on my face when I saw the words plant and discus used in the same sentence without a negative?

Anyhow, the best site for me was Walter's page. Hard to believe that he's just sharing information!

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/discus/main.html

[banditsbuddy]

Hello plant people. I have had a 45g tank heavily planted for 6 months. It is doing great. I had to try alot of different plants. Some just cant stand the heat. I love having a perfect eco system. I only use a fluval filter and no additional air pump. Including providing oxygen for the fish it gives my discus a great place to go relax in my community tank :)

[Ivan]

Over here in the UK, bare tanks are a no no. Especialy to one credited writer on Cichlids. None of her tanks are BB. All are gravel bottom, some have piles of rotting leaves in the tanks for the s/a's. Her favourites are the rift cichlids.
when I was told that discus do better in a BB tank, I thought "BOG OFF" Fish tank with no gravel or plants, whats the point of that one then? Then I tried it. Next time I grow out Discus from 2" they will be in a bb from the start for approx 10 months then put into a planted tank. Discus don't need to be kept in a bb all their life IMO, but I think mine would be bigger if I had done the above.

[April]

Ivan....my hero! LOL.
see Don....Ivan is my bud....and he wants to grow his discus out in a bare bottom.
good ivan stay on the bb side with me....don is from the dark side and trying to sway me over there with him.
he even went so far as to send me plants in the mail!!

[Ralph]

April, when are you going to post pictures of your planted guppy tank? We are still waiting.

[Ivan]

April, I'm kinda teetering on the edge. I have a planted tank, just no discus in it. i'm planning to set up my main tank for my discus. I will allways grow out young fish in a bb, but they wont ever stay in one for ever amen.

[Don_Lee]

You cannot resist the lure of the dark side!!! :) :)

Don ;D

[April]

we'll see don..id rather spend money on fish than fancy smancy lights!!

[ChloroPhil]

Hi all,

I'm a plant-head who's beginning to get interested in discus. After seeing the condition of my fish in planted vs. non planted aquaria and seeing Walter's tanks (see above post in thread) I'll never go unplanted again!

[prew62]

Discus and Plant People!
Anyone using the Dupla Undergravel Heaters? Do plants help stabilize the chemistry in your tanks? Last question: I understand CO2 injection raises the ph in a tank . Good for the plants bad for the Discus. Anyone care to elaborate? I'm new to this.

Thanks,

Prewitt

[Ralph]

Hey Prewitt,
Those are short questions but unfortunately they have long complicated answers (complicated at least to me).
Here is my best shot:
CO2 actually lowers pH, in fact if you have a low buffer, you can actually crash your tank, which is even worse than it sounds. CO2 injection can also deprive your fish of O2 if done incorrectly, that's a bad thing too. Now that I've scared you, it is not hard to avoid these situations and with CO2, you can turn your planted tank into a show tank.
Undergravel heaters (I don't have one due to cost) are great for providing water flow through the substrate (good for the plants and for preventing anaerobic bacteria). They also give your plants what they call warm feet, similar to what they get in the wild.
The last question is really a tough one. I would say in general that plants do stabilize tank chemistry. With light, they are constantly absorbing nitrogen compounds, CO2, minerals, etc. and give off a O2. Having this ongoing activity would help stabilize nitrogen levels, O2, pH, and toxins.
How much is another question. At this point in time at least, we have to rely on filters and water changes to provide good water parameters.
Great questions, I hope I did them justice.

[prew62]

Thanks Ralph!
Sorry about the indepth question. Still studying all the parameters of setting up a planted Discus tank before I jump in. I think as long as my plants have sufficient light and fertilizer I should be okay. Definitely want to do the Dupla though.

Prewitt

[ChloroPhil]

Prewitt,

Check out George Booth's website http://aquaticconcepts.thekrib.com/

He's one of the Old School masters of the Dupla style planted discus tanks.

To expound on what Ralph was saying about CO2 and pH. The other factor in the CO2 triangle is KH or Carbonate Hardness. It's a measure of your tank's pH buffering capacity. With plants you want to keep a KH of 3 or 4 dKH. This will give enough buffer to your water to keep the pH pretty stable in the event of a sudden dumping of gas.

Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) is good for upping your KH. Just keep in mind that the higher your KH the more CO2 you'll need to add to attain the desired levels. 3-4 dKH is the best as it's easy to attain and doesn't require large amounts of CO2 to keep the right levels.

Keep in mind that a 24hr cycle of .2 pH is normal as plants put out CO2 when the lights are out. My tank fluctuates between 6.2 when the lights come on to 6.4 at lights out 12 hrs later.

Check out www.sfbaaps.com for some really good planted aquarium resources. Tom Barr's information is especially good...and don't forget Aquatic Concepts. :)

[prew62]

Thanks!
Been to George Booth's website. I'll check out the others. I don't want to be fanatical with plants, or fish either for that matter, but I want to give them both the best start possible. Duplarit sounds promising although I'm not sure how well it works if you are vacuming the bottom of your tank. I know it is basically buried.
Lets just say the last time I did anything with aquariums I was using a Supreme Aqua-king filter. Follow me?

[ChloroPhil]

George did go the route of the fanatic on his tanks..I'll give you that. But who can argue with success? [Duplarit] Laterite is for the bottom layer of your substrate only and shouldn't ever be sucked up. Contrary to much of the popular conceptions one doesn't want to get overzealous with syphoning the substrate in a planted aquarium. A surface "scan" will do to keep up appearances and leave it at that.

I use Laterite mixed with pool filter sand under Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil aka "Profile" and it works very well. If you're willing to fork out a few extra bucks on your substrate Flourite is the One Stop "Fire and Forget" substrate. It's not exactly cheap, but it's all you'll ever need for a planted aquarium. I believe Wahter wrote a post comparing different substrates..that'd be a good place to start.

Even if you don't become a fanatic like me it's important to keep a holistic view of your aquarium as a complete system. Everything you do to one thing affects all the others and with plants some changes can lead to serious algae problems. Even so, there is no more rewarding thing in aquarium keeping than knowing you can keep a whole ecosystem flourishing rather than just fish. Fish are easy, aquariums are the challenge.

[skylsdale]

Nice little thread here....I would say it's the reefkeeping equivalent to "skimmer(a.k.a. foam fractionator) vs. skimmerless."

I have a somewhat similar thread running in the general forum("Nature vs. Nurture") and my basis for the whole thought process was people saying that planted tanks get too "dirty" for healthy discus. Granted, there are millions of gallons of water flowing by in a discus habitat, but there is still quite a bit of muck in those rivers. Have you ever seen a blackwater stream? It is literally covered with leaf litter. Blackwater streams and rivers themselves are caused by rotting and decaying vegetation...can it really be that detrimental to the health of these fish?