A new attitude

I've been thinking about this for awhile now and after a telephone conversation I've decided to change my methods. Until now I've been packing as much food into my fish as they would take. There was never leftover food but lots of crap to clean. And with the high level of stocking in my tanks that can only lead to poor water quality. I have not suffered as a result of this but it's only a matter of time. I find feeding is the foremost decision that we make and everything else is a result of this decision. For instance, I have a couple of tanks of Angels, 5 adults in a 30g, and because of the amount of food they get their water is always crystal clear and hardly ever needs cleaning. I also only change 10% water daily in those tanks. But my Discus tanks need massive water changes to keep up with the amount of food that I put in. The angels have grown really well even with less food & water changed. It leads me to believe that much of the food I give to my Discus is less of an advantage to their growth & more of a detriment to the water quality.

So now I'm going to switch to 3 feedings per day, no more. I'll continue to change 50% water daily and see how that works out.

Dave

p.s. the water quality issue is never an issue on tanks serviced by wet/dry filters, only those that have sponge filters.

[Don_Lee]

Very interesting thinking Dave. I would really appreciate you updating us all about how your experiment goes. I think the beief to feed feed feed is worth looking at, for the very reasons you describe.

Don ;D

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Dave:
Juveniles too or just adults?
Carol :heart1:

I only feed my adults twice a day already so I'll continue that. I'm talking about juveniles.

Dave

[Denny]

dave,

just out of curiousity, what was your thinking before, what was said in the phone conversation to change it, and what other aspects will these changes effect in your routine?

also, can you explain the statement about water quality being better with a wet/dry than sponge filters? that really interests me as it seems that the consensus is that sponges offer superior filtration

good luck.

denny

[slicksta]

I could not agree more!!!!!


not sure if that is a good thing for you though....lol ;D

I am relatively new to discus.....about 4 months...
but these guys I've had for 8 years....
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/15736j.jpg

I feed my Africans once a day, and I never have disease, my fish are huge,healthy and very active. And my water is crystal clear, looks like you can drink it.....
I only do 20% WC every two weeks, and have let it go as far as a month......


Many times........more isn't better....It's Just More!
JMHO

John :bandana:

Denny,

My thinking before was that the more food they ate the more they digested so the faster & bigger they would grow. That's possibly true too. Now I'm thinking that by feeding so much the water quality can't help but suffer, between water changes. As a result they may get larger but may suffer from poorer water quality as a result. As I said I've watched these Angels grow with minimal food, minimal water changes & basically minimal maintenance and it got me to wondering just how much of the food I'm feeding Discus is ending up being crapped out and siphoned. I'll bet there's a ton. So I wondered how much they are able to digest in a day. I may be feeding 100x what they can digest (or take into their systems and use for growth) whereas I could achieve almost the same results but feeding 1/3 of what I'm feeding. And if the water quality is improved as a result it may make them healthier overall. What really got me thinking about this is when I have ovrecrowded tanks & feed lots & do lots of water changes. The water is still not as clear as it is on my other tanks. The fish don't seem to notice & eat everything they get and want more. But my water bill shows the effect & my food bill ain't much better. One question I've asked before & never had answered is whether Discus would grow just as large but take longer if we fed them less food less often. For instance if a fish is going to grow to 7" in your tank in 14 months with 7x a day feedings will it grow to 7" in my tank in 18 months with 3x a day feedings? If so I'll opt for the 3x a day feedings & spend far less on food & do far fewer water changes. I'll also bet I end up with better water quality as a result and a healthier fish. That's basically the line of thinking I'm running with. I have no tragedies in my fish room, no unhealthy fish, I'm just thinking that the quest for larger fish immediately may do other damage to the fish as well as to the wallet. The phone conversation was just a talk with someone who knows more then I do and basically we discussed these premises and agreed on the logic. I don't see a downside to this switch other than possibly slower growth. My first 7 fish were fed 3x a day in a 50g tank with an AC300. I made tons of mistakes and they grew to 7" and are doing great. I want to get back to the simplicity of that day.

The water quality in a tank with a wet/dry is so much better because there is a mechanical filter in the prefilter boxes and drip tray that catches all of the crap in the water column, the overflow acts as a skimmer and removes all of the floating stuff, and the media bed is huge, much larger than a set of sponges so the water is crystal clear. I use lots of sponges too but you can't beat a wet/dry.

Dave

[EthanCote.com]

This is just my observation, but what Dave wrote above has lots of truth to it.

I feed my Discus normally 3-4 times a day generously for about 1min. After each feeding, I always notice when they poop, it is quite solid and dark. And sometimes they would eat their own poop (which is rather disgusting if ya ask me :-X) (I assume if they eat their own excrement, it means there must still be some nutritious value to the food)

From this observation I assume that by feeding them 3-4 times a day, the food does not stay in their stomach very long since the time interval between each meal is about 4 hrs in between. Thus it means that from one feeding to the next, the food from the previous feeding will leave their system with the addition of new food, since these Discus tend to eat non stop.

So if the food does not stay in their system for very long, not sure how quicky they would have been broken down into useful components for the Discus growing body.

So I assume if I start to feed them say 3 times a day rather than 4, the food will tend to stay in their system a bit longer and hence be broken down into useful compounds rather than being excreted.

Any thoughts on this?


Cheers,

Chi.

[Denny]

dave,

that is a very well thought out conclusion that you came to and i agree with what you stated. i think what we put in the tank has the biggest effect on the whole system.

i don't know if it adds anything, but in the ag industries they pretty much have it down as to what animals need to grow. as an example, there are alot of hog and poultry confinement operations around here and having worked in some in the past and also talking to those still in the business, they have it pegged. in the poultry barns they know exactly how many pounds of a specific formulation of food it takes to get a bird to a target weight and how long it takes. this is done through mass producing animals in a stable environment and monitoring growth rates and comparing the growth rates with those on other formulas.there is alot more to it but i know you get the idea.

my personal belief is that any fish has a max. growth rate.to achieve this rate, a fish needs a specific amount of nutrients. anything less and growth is not optimal, anything more and it is left undigested and passed off as waste or stored as fat, which is potential growth not needed if fed a proper diet. i do not believe it matters which form this food takes as long as it gives the fish the nutrients they need in a form they can digest. where it matters is that the form that pollutes the water the least is in my book the most desireable.

the same goes for dogs and cats, which most of us own. you will find that if you feed your pets food that is higher in content of the things they need,you have less loaves on your lawn and fewer piles in the litter box. the cheap stuff has more fillers that are undigestable and they are stored as fat or pooped out in the yard.


glad you started this thread because it needs alot more discussion.

denny

[discus4me]

I've often thought about this ,but i just throw the beefheart in the tank nonstop because thats what ive heard works. Now i've been keeping discus for 7 months but i cannot claim to know 10% of what most of these people know in this forum, basically i read the posts and apply information the best i know how to encourage growth and optimum health for my discus. I do 50% w/c twice a day but do i really need to? since i feed water polluting food like beefheart i would assume so, but if someone was feeding moderate portions of black worms i dought that would be the case being that they are better for maintaining water quality. I love this post and i'm really intersested in what everyone has to say, keep the posts coming.

[Denny]

it is my belief that the food with the best potential for discus in an enclosed environment would be a pellet form. they are better because they are digested wholly and only pollute the water as waste.although one that doesn't swell after they eat it would be better. flakes can have the nutrition but they disintegrate into small pieces of dust that remain uneaten and this is less desireable than pellets.

live food is great for the fish but may carry diseases in some cases and the biggest drawback being higher cost and cost in maintaining them. plus the fish still MAY need to have supplemental nutrition to get the optimal balance. personally i would like to see only live food for all fish in a perfect world because it would be more natural and i am a fan of that but in a closed environment there are considerations.

beefheart is fed to some of the nicest fish in the world and works great but the time to prepare for me is too much and i have tried the pre made stuff but i didn't care for what it did for the water quality.

frozen foods are good but require additional food to meet dietary requirements.


jmho

denny

[slicksta]

DJ

and I agree with you as well.....
I presoak my pellets to pre-expand them, which helps....

I know I'm gonna get the crap beat out of me, but this has been on my mind, and Dave got me goin', so here it is......

I think many hobbyist here, take the breeders approach to keeping discus, and in mho, that is a mistake.
The bare-bottom, feed the livin' s&!t out of them, and do massive water changes is no way to enjoy this beautiful fish. Let alone putting him in an environment that is nothing like the Amazon. When I see pics of BB tanks and post of massive water changes, it reminds me of a lab experiment, not something I want in my living room or for my pets.
I think they are way over doing it, and if your not in the business....
why?
I think many of the breeders here care for there fish, and do a great job, but they are in the business of producing a product.....why would one want to do that with a pet.
I in no way want to offend anyone here....I respect everyone's opinion and I have gained a great deal of knowledge being a part of this board.
remember guys....I luv ya, so all I ask is......be gentle ;D


John :bandana:

[Willie]

Ethan:

There's no relationship between feeding time and poop time and how long the food stays in their system. The food stays in for the same amount of time. The poop is not from what they last ate. Food moves through fish intestines via peristaltic action, which is not affected by the amount of food.

Having said that, eating huge amounts of food is certainly far from natural. It is, however, a logical outcome of keeping discus as a hobby. Wild discus usually come in razor thin and eat ravenously for quite a while, indicating that they are operating close to starvation. Also, fish size is an important criterion in judging discus quality. Finally, well fed fish will mature earlier and all of us are heavily into breeding.

So we're probably overfeeding our fish. Is it natural, probably not. But if we want to be natural, we should send these guys back to the Amazon. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Willie

[jim_shedden]

This is great info. Please keep us up to date Dave.

Thanks : Jim

[DiscusKing]

Slicksta makes some very valid points. It all depends on what you wish from your discus. If you are looking for quick growth and breeding to offset your costs of the hobby, so be it. BB tanks have their advantages just for that aspect. You can concentrate on the fish and not have to worry about substrates etc. I have seen fully-grown adults in a BB tank grouping and they look great. I also believe that plants in an adult tank can be helpful as well. In BB tanks we forget that we could use floating plants like Hornwort or Frogbit. These types of plants will cut down the direct lighting, giving a subdued effect. One thing I believe is that it doesn’t matter which side of the fence anyone stands on, a breeder or a naturalist will always keep the BEST of the BEST in some sort of showtank. This tank is the one we sit back and enjoy the fish for their beauty after all our efforts. A breeder in some ways is anal retentive, trying to breed the perfect discus for that tank. I tip my hat to those breeders since they are responsible for keeping the standards, which we follow. So many times I have gone into a LFS and seen mixes on, not just discus, but other species that end up in the species being deformed etc. We all have our opinions of the Blood Parrot, or the fruit-loop Tetras. These are the fish that get customers with their children into the stores and started in the hobby. We disagree with the methods of what a lot of LFSs do, but to keep their businesses making money, that is life. Our children will become adults and some will stay in the hobby. They will also keep our high standards with our influence.
Dave is looking at something I have also found. For fry and young discus, yes, feed them well, start the growth process but when comes the time, should we back off the heavy feedings and feed them in a “regular” pattern. Discus are a species which it takes time for them to grown to mature adults. We become impatient, hence the continuation of the heavier feedings. I have backed off my feedings to twice a day since my discus have reached the four to five inch stage and they are fattening up better than if I was still heavy feeding. The growth spurts are still there. I also am a member of several Aquarium Societies which I am an accomplished horticulturist. I keep my discus in a planted show tank. I have my grow-out tanks, breeding tanks, etc as well. Yes, I would love to breed, and will some day, but for now, I just plain like to enjoy my discus and what I have done with them. In basic it comes down to one thing. The more time you spend in keeping your fish, the more you should appreciate your efforts in the results you receive.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave,
I think you have some good points , I also think the age of the fish has lot to with the amount of growth that the food contributes as compared to the water quality issues. For juvs 3-4 inches I think 3 feedings should work. I say that because I have recently raised a set from eggs to adult and thats pretty much what they got. I am pleased with the kind of growth they got from that feeding, not sure If I could have gotten better with more food though...

But for eggs to 2inches. I Feed as often as I can- 5 + times aday, with 50% water changes 2x a day. I recently posted some pics of those fry and I can say the growth of them is far better than what I saw before with the same time period of development, but 3 feedings a day. I think the reason for this is because the fry in the wild would graze all day.

My adults get fed about 2X aday.

I also think the quality of the food and diversity of it is key to optimum growth. Some nutrients require other nutrients to be present for them to be used.

Please keep us posted how the fish do. Can you split a group of same age and size fish , and feed them the old way vs the new thinking? I think it would be a great experiment...

Taek care,
al...

ps... 5+feedings...

Dave your thinking is absolutely right, there is a difference between a healthy kid and a fat kid, more food dosen't mean faster growth, as long as we supply the adequate amount, my problem has always been figuring out, what is adequate...... ??? ???h

[April]

well sounds interesting. all i know is a body can only use so much..the rest has to be discharged. not sure about fish...but people can stretch their stomachs...
yes it would be good if you can split them up.
Didnt i hear somewhere if they grow too fast and fat...their dorsal fins dont grow at the right proportions? might have that wrong...
but i do know with dogs...if they grow too fast and too heavy..they sometimes have bones who dont grow strong enough to keep up with the weight.

[discus4me]

I agree with your outlook but as a beginner i admit i want huge discus not so much for the breeding purposes but for the future showtank. Do i overfeed? probably. Thats why i change so much water, but at the same time i enjoy it because the water changes give me a chance to interact with the fish at least twice a day. I truely enjoy my discus and (personally) don't care whether i have to change 3x a day as long as i enjoy it. I think it all matters on what you want out of your discus. I sit back and watch them plenty but feel if i'm in the room i might as well change the water for their sakes. There is a good possibilty that i may be loosing my mind, but i have the waterchanges down to an art now so i'm like nike (i just do it). ;D

[April]

LOL discus 4 me. thats great. you sound like a good daddy. and im sure your fish will turn out gorgeous because of it.
wanna come do all mine?

al,

No offence but that picture you posted is a good example of what I think of as one detriment of overfeeding. The fish appears to have a beak, it's mouth & eye seem underdeveloped compared to the forehead & chin. If this was a human baby I think we'd refer to it as a very chubby kid. One other concern I had with the pictures you posted is the area above & behind the eye. There's a huge crease in the fish there, I've seen it in fish that develop HITH, it's like a crator of sorts and will worsen with age if this follows the pattern of the ones I had. Either way it's a large indent that should not be there at any age. I don't know if these aspects are caused by overfeeding but I've seen similar in my fry and that's one of the reasons I am changing my feeding habits. It could also be caused by water quality affected by overfeeding. I'm not bashing your fish, please believe me, many posters seem to feel they're beautiful. I find they are showing defects & I assume they're caused by overfeeding. I may be wrong, probably I am.

I seriously doubt that Discus fry in the wild have access to food to such a degree that they can eat until their bellies are so round. I may break my next group of fish into two and overfeed one group as I used to and feed the other group 3x a day. If my current feeding fills my goals I doubt I'll do it though because I don't want the food bill, cleaning time nor the health risk for the fish. It wouldn't surprise me if feeding 3x a day is still overfeeding, it's all relative and none of us weigh the food we put into our tanks so what I fed may be far more then what others feed. Saying 3x a day does not indicate the volume of food at each feeding. I did notice that one of my Gold Pigeons was crapping out a nice red bloodworm. It looked as fresh as it did when I fed it to the guy. It looked completely undigested, therefore worthless to the growth of the fish.

Dave

[slicksta]

Dave
This is my first run at discus, but I can't believe that they can be that different from the other south american cichlids I have kept. I understand that they are more delicate, and require a cleaner environment....but from what I have seen so far, not as delicate as some of the tetras I have kept...
I have never fed any of my fish, or done the amount of water changes that most here feel are necessary. I have felt a little like an outsider, but was determined to give discus a try with my methods. Your post has given me new confidence that I will succeed.
I am not suggesting skimp on food, or keep a dirty tank, or even do the bare minimum, but feeding the proper amount and not intruding in there habitat unnecessarily I feel will result in healthier, happier fish.
When people visit my home, and see my tanks, I always get the same reaction.....Wow, your fish look great and your tank is so clean...you must spend hours on it. Then I tell them how little time I spend and they don't believe me. I honestly believe that in a fish tank....... food is the root of most evils.

John

[Denny]

i have suggested in the past that it would be great to split groups and do tests for growth and health. at the time it was posted that it was too expensive to experiment on discus. but as i read about how many are culled to the freezer by all of the breeders, i cannot help but to thimk that they could be put to a better use. either donated to hobbiests like myself or to local colleges and universities to do research so the questions that keep being raised here can be answered with some hard data.

dave, maybe next time you get fish from cary or mike they can fill the rest of the box with culls( the ones that are o.k except for shape, not the defective ones) and you can split them and try different feeding and w/c schedules and see what happens. you could never answer all questions with one batch but if we could do many groups over time ,then we would have solid answers and not just he said she said.

breeders, by donating culls you could receive information that will either reinforce your beliefs or possibly learn things that will make their business more efficient or profitable.

denny

The reason I'd be unwilling to carry out these tests is that I'm just a hobbyist like the rest of you. I have a limited # of tanks and time to maintain these tanks. I spend too much time & money on this hobby already without testing theories. I plan to test this theory by altering my feeding habits and seeing what the results are in a few months time. In order to do a comparison that would convince anyone here I would need to be weighing the food before feeding, keeping a log of each tank, ensuring that all water changes in both tanks were done exactly the same etc. In the end there would be something I missed that would cause my results to be dismissed as inaccurate. I prefer to alter my methods and compare results. I also don't want to house a tankful of culls for the sake of an experiment. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just one that would be better done at your house with your time, money & effort. ::) Go for it.

Dave

[Denny]

i would do it if asked, no problem. for me it is as important to learn the facts as it is to just have a room of fish. but you are right about the parameters and that is why it would be great to get a college with a strong biology dept. to do the work.they have he tools to do it right.

Dave'
As long as they are = in size when Young You are Doing a Good Job Providing them with enough food! This Pic states the size I start feeding 3 Xs a day But just enough for everyone.

HTH
TakeCare'
Cary Gld!

[discus4me]

april,
I dont know if i'm prepared to drive to vancouver to change water but i do plan on buying a few from you in the future. I tell you what, If you sell me a nice round fish i would be more than happy to stick around and help you do changes for the day. ;)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dave ,
No Offense taken. That crease should have nothing to do with hole in the head, and is from a growth plate, I believe, Similar to the soft area at the top of a human baby's head. It is not permanent and is not visible on adults, at least in my tanks it wasn't.

This is a time course for the same set of fry.... and its also the fry that I mentioned as being raised on about 3 feedings a day....
http://a2.cpimg.com/image/7A/98/13630842-b553-02730197-.jpg
http://a3.cpimg.com/image/7B/98/13630843-d106-02000180-.jpg
http://a4.cpimg.com/image/7C/98/13630844-30c7-02000180-.jpg
http://a7.cpimg.com/image/4F/9F/12813647-9f15-021C0195-.jpg
http://a9.cpimg.com/image/3D/9E/12813629-a2a3-021C0195-.jpg
http://a2.cpimg.com/image/D6/B4/13631702-d9eb-02000180-.jpg

When I first saw the "crease" I was worried, but it really doesn't seem to have been a problem. Maybe some other breeders out there can comment on it.

ps the pic of that fat one is taken at Dinner time...
http://a6.cpimg.com/image/7E/98/13630846-9765-02000180-.jpg. They are not that fat when in between means. I'll take plenty of pics as these develop and then we can take a look at how the heavy feeding of 5+ times a day affected them. This is the first set of fry I have been feeding like this.

Hth,
al

This is a good thread!!!!!!!!!
Very interesting and good information.

Miles

[ronrca]

How timely this discussion is! Last thursday I went out and bought a new eheim auto feeder that feeds up to 4x a day. Since then Im feeding 6x a day. Yikes! What I have noticed when I was changing water, that mixed in with the crap was fish food. Well, now I know Im over feeding! Keep us updated! For newbies like myself, I do as Im told because what else can I do and if feeding 3x produces the same result, yahoo, Im for it. 8)

Just fyi. My personal experience!
When I started with discus about 2 years ago, I was very leary because one always hearing about how hard it is to 'keep' discus. Of course the prices for discus are quite high and to get a minimum of at least 6, well, that would cost me at the lfs over $200. So I started to look for some breeders and found one. I specificly asked for his culls and he sold me 6 discus for $100. He didnt sell me any deformed ones or anything, just ones he would normally not sell. I was very happy. They were all around 2-3". I came home and put them into my 90G planted tank. Out of the 6, 2 grew to 6-7", 3 were a little slower but grew to 5-6" and one stayed small, a runt 2-3" (I had some disease where I lost 4 of the smaller ones, most likely caused from C02 poisoning :'( ). I never did any huge water changes and only fed them 1-2 a day. It took about a year for the 2 biggest ones to grow to 6-7" from 2-3". Not bad imo especially considering they were culls to begin with.

[discus4me]

hey brew i like those babies, they are putting a throwdown on that beefheart. I think the one i like best is the round one on the bottom with the bulge in his belly. Nice work. :thumbsup:

Well, it'll be 3 weeks tomorrow since I cut back the feeding. It's too soon to say whether it will be detrimental to the rate of growth of these fish, I'll have to draw those conclusions in the months to follow. But I have to say the benefits are definitely there. I only do one water change per day, about 50% and I could probably cut that back... but I won't. My tanks are clean when I go to clean them now, there's some crap on the bottom but none of the floating crap within the water column. The fish are always active as they are always hungry. They show uniform growth, at least to my eye, but time will tell. I use far less food and my tank glass stays clean longer. Overall I'm completely satisfied with feeding 3x a day vs. 6-7x a day.

Dave

[ronrca]

Hehe! Same here Dave! It sure makes a difference! The water is soo much clearer and there is not as much crap. If they do grow a little slower, I like the cleaner water, cleaner tank and less maintenance.

But then again, from a business point of view, if I were selling the juvs, I may want to grow them as quick as possible therefore selling them quicker. Just a thought! For now, my discus are just as happy and maybe slightly happier with a cleaner environment.

Keep us posted Dave! ;)

[brewmaster15]

Just thought I'd post an update here on the chubby fry pics I posted earlier in this thread..... These guys get fed 4-5 times a day now.... tetra bits, brine shrimp,. mysis, jehmco beter sinking bits, blood worms, marine quisine.....

[brewmaster15]

...

[brewmaster15]

.....

[brewmaster15]

....

Wow, very nice fish al. As I said before I hope you didn't take offence to my comment. Is the fish that I commented on in one of the pictures that you just posted? I know when I'm raising fry I have many fish that don't make it to my final tank of a dozen or so, some are culled, many are sold. Regardless of whether that fish is still in your tank your methods are obviously working well.

[brewmaster15]

Thank You Dave,

yes that fish is one of them...Not sure which one though. I always go thru and pick ~1" ....10 or more fry from a spawn that I am interested in and separate them into their own tank. These I do not sell but I maintain for myself as grow outs. Sometimes I am may have to cull a few, but this group of fry was very good for me.


Take care,
al

[bmrin1]

Brew,
Nice looking fish.
Brian

[Chris-C]

Awesome shape and color on those fish Brew :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Chris

[flogger426]

dave

i know most people on this board don't like me much, but after reading your post i had to respond. your new found method is the right one!

most people on this board have problems with their fish because they mess around with them way too much. overfeeding, drastic water changes, wiping down tanks constanty etc. etc. leaving them alone is the secret!

frankly i would cut back to two feedings a day and contrary to what all the people on this board say 50% water changes everyday is way way too much!

how about 50% every three days! your water company will hate you for it, but your pocketbook and fish will think it's great.

discus growth is regulated thats it. this is dictated by millions of years of evolution. in other words they only can grow so much in a given amount of time - they also grow in spurts, taking brief rests in between spurts. thats just the way it is! stuffing them with CBW every two hours only hurts the fish.

good luck in your new found method i know you'll be more successful.


john

[April]

Dave. im finding this very interesting. keep us updated. please.
brew.those fish are very nice. id take a nice tank full of those....myself. lol.
but then i always want more fish . lol

Water changes depend on stocking density, filtration & feeding. I have 140 <1" fish in a 65g tank. I change 50% 2x a day. There is no way I could change every 3 days. You can't make statements about frequency or % of water changes without knowing the tank environment.

[Carol_Roberts]

Exactly right Dave_C.
Stocking density is what determines % of water changes. Most of us tend to overstock . . . .we try to fit in just a couple of more discus. . . . and you can get away with that . . . if you change more water everyday.

[Barb Newell]

Al, those are absolutely beautiful looking fish, you do an amazing job raising them!!!!!!!! I bet they're very tame as well (lots of TLC). I think I'll take a trip to your house and take a few of them off of your hands, what do you think?

Barb :)

[brewmaster15]

C'mon Down! :) We love visitors!

-al

[Barb Newell]

I would LOVE to!!!!!

Barb :)

[Mike_T]

Nice job on the fry Al. They turned out very nice. I realize there's an unbelievable amount of work put into raising fry from egg to adulthood. I'd like to try it someday when I have more time.

-Mike T 8)

http://www.aca2003.com

[henryD]

I have a couple of questions. Did you set up 2 seperate tank from the same group? One with extra feeding one with the normal 3x?

I find this all very interesting.

No, I just started feeding less. The fish that I was concerned with at the time were 1" Gold Pigeon S/S. I had 37 of them at the time and the dirty tanks were freaking me out. I sold most of them as they grew but I still have 5 of them. They're gorgeous and getting quite large. I am completely happy with the result of feeding less.

Now I've got a 65g tank with 140 fish in it that are getting close to 1" and a 50g tank with 100 fish the same size. I'm about to separate them into smaller groups of 50 or so and I'm contemplating the feeding that I will do for these fish. I've been feeding them about 5x a day because old habits die hard. But I also have Magnums running on my tanks now so the water stays clear even with large & frequent feedings.