Hmm ain't Discus poop enuff??

[EthanCote.com]

Grin, k now I got all of your attention with the subject title here goes:

I never understood the need to fertilize plants. I always imagine the poops from Discus would contain sufficient nutrients/minerals for growing plants. Am I wrong in this assumption???

If I am wrong, what nutrients/minerals are lacking from Discus poops?

Danks for listening. Comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

And if I need to fertilize, what is the best products for this type of job? I have heard alot about Seachem??


Cheers,

Chi.

[Don_Lee]

Hi Ethan,

To know for sure if the discus poops provide enough of one of the plants needs, ammonia and its byproducts, one would have to check nitrate/nitrite/ammonia. Plants need other nutrients besides those ammonia related, and most fertilizers do not even have any ammonia/nitrogen related nutrients in them. I would recommend a good substrate and lighting, and get a good basic fertilizer from Seachem or Tropica. From there, it is experiment time!

Don

[Ralph]

Since my tank is almost entirely Amazon Swords, I focused on the substrate. I have an inch of gravel/Flourite mixture (about 1/3 Flourite, an Seachem product) over the top of 1/2 inch of potting soil (don't try this at home). I've never added any fertilizers to my tank. My plants are flourishing though, even more than I want, I'm not a big fan of the rampant growth of the Dutch style tanks.
I have read about the benefits to the plants of solid fish wastes (and they usually include uneaten food in the same sentence), because of their nutrient value. It's going on in your tank right now if you have gravel (total cleaning is nearly impossible), bacteria breaks down the wastes so that the nutrients can be absorbed by the plants.
Two problems though, discus require a "cleaner" tank than most (all?) aquarium fish, and your fish are going to supply far more nutrients (poop) than your plants could ever use.

My suggestion: keep vacuuming!

But also, unless you are going for the rampant plant growth, back off on the fertilizer additives unless your plants show that they have deficiencies, yellowing leaves, no growth, etc.

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Ralph,

Where do I go about getting some Flourite? And is this messy to use??

As for the Seachem product, I assume I can get them from my lfs?

I wish I have your problem Ralph. I do wish my plants would thrive and flourish like yours. Mine ain't dying and some leaves do go yellow from time to time, but they seem to be healthy otherwise. I want more growth on them and more babies =)


Cheers,

Chi.

[Ralph]

Hi Chi,
Flourite is not like Laterite, which does break down. In fact, some people use 100% Flourite for their substrate, instead of gravel.
I haven't been on the Seachem website (seachem.com) for a while but they used to have a dealer locator. Many of the online aquarium suppliers carry Seachem too, though with extra shipping for the Flourite.

What kind of plants do you have, and how old is your setup?
What substrate do you have now?

[RAWesolowski]

Chi,

I used flourite as a base in my tank with light gravel over because I didn't want the reddish bottom to show. Plants are doing well, but I supplement with Tetra Flora-Pride. Swords, crypts and Alternanthera are doing well despite not having CO2.

Getting ready for a new set-up and I may try Seachem Onyx as a substrate. Initial thoughts are that it contains iron and manganese that may help to temper my RO water. Need to do a little research before deciding to use it.

[Ralph]

I wanted to use the Onyx myself but the Seachem people told me that it will affect pH. You may want to talk to them to confirm. As I remember, it didn't send it through the roof but elevated it more than I wanted. I almost used it anyway, it looks like a great product. It may work for you though.

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Ralph,

I have some swords, corkscrews, sag. or vallersia (not sure which kind) and crypts.

I was able to increase my light output to 1Watt/gallon (although I know 2 Watts/gallon is recommended).

Right now I only have gravel in the ceramic pots and nothing else. So Flourite is like gravel but it releases nutrients to your plants? And it doesn't break down like Laterite???

I do not add extra nutrients to the plants but am thinking about it since I do want my plants to be more luxious in growth and thicker. Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx.


Cheers,

Chi.

[EthanCote.com]

Just did some research on Flourite and this came up. It's An Interview with Seachem on Flourite:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/flourite.htm


Cheers,

Chi.

Did a bit more research and came up with this quote:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/flourite.html

Onyx vs Flourite
by "James Purchase" <jppurchase/Home.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001

I have tanks set up with both Flourite and Onyx and can honestly say that
whichever one you choose should be based on a combination of what your
tapwater is like and what "color" you like your substrate. Flourite won't
affect water parameters, Onyx will slightly increase both GH and KH, so if
you have really soft water, Onyx might be the better choice. Conversely, if
you have "liquid rock" coming from your tap, you might want to stick with
Flourite. But the effect of Onyx on water parameters is minimal, certainly
not like if you used crushed marble or limestone as a substrate. Toronto
water is moderately hard and I have both Discus and Dwarf Rams in the tank
which contains Onyx. The fish don't seem to mind (the Rams breed regularly)
the extra buffering.

Plants love both - if anything, I think that Onyx might even have the edge -
the tank with Onyx is an absolute jungle (of course, having 7 watts/gal of
MH lighting might help, a bit......).

Seachem definately has two winners on their hands with Flourite and Onyx

James Purchase
Toronto

[Ralph]

Hello Chi,
(Who is Ethan Cote? I was just asking because it's my last name too. Probably not a big deal to a Canadian, but there is not many of us in Arizona.)

Your plants are all big root feeders. If you don't go with the Flourite (interesting interview, and truthful to what I've experienced), you could use fertilizer sticks maybe.

And your plants have high light requirements. I have about 1 and 1/2 watts/gal. which is low too but I also get morning sunlight on my tank. (I know this is a major taboo, it's usually the first rule in aquarium books, "Don't put your tank near a window.") I've noticed though that two swords that don't get any direct sun aren't growing as fast, and seemed dormant for a while. Which probably means that swords will do much better with 2 watts/gal.

Just a couple of suggestions, feel free to ignore any of it.

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Ralph,

I just sent you an IM.

Have a great day.


Cheers,

Chi.

[ronrca]

Hi Chi,
A good question about fish waste and fertilizer. My opinion on that is Id rather fertilize my plants and vaccum the waste out. Besides, fertilization will provide 'trace elements' benefical to plant growth like sulfur, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium and iron that fish waste cannot provide. Some plants can concentrate carbon, potassium, nitrogen, phosphorus, iron or the lesser trace elements and store it for later use. This means that plants may do well for a while, using stored nutrients, and then mysteriously wither if they can't replenish their supply. Seachem is very good however in big tanks (60G+), it gets pricey. Maybe worth it however for big tanks I use pond fertilizers instead like Laguna. It is much more concentrate and cheaper.

I use flourite and next time I do a planted tank, it will be %100 flourite.

For information:
Average nutrient content of plants and aquarium water

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Symbol Nutrient Plant Water Absorbed as Concen|
| mg/kg mg/l Factor|
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| O Oxygen 48,000 880,000 H2O 0.02
| Abundantly available in the water
|
| C Carbon 36,000 Varies CO2(HCO3-) 1000
| Absent if no CO2 injection
|
| H Hydrogen 6,000 110,000 H2O 0.02
| Abundantly available in the water
|
| K Potassium 3,600 5 K+ 1000
| Sufficient with good feeding, otherwise fertilizing
|
| N Nitrogen 3,200 5 NH4+/NO3- 1000
| Too much nitrate with good fish feeding
|
| S Sulphur 660 15 SO4-- 50
| Source: fish food and mains water
|
| Ca Calcium 650 90 Ca++ 10
| Absent in soft water
|
| P Phosphorus 460 0.1 HPO4--/H2PO4- 1000
| Too many phosphates with good fish feeding
|
| Mg Magnesium 210 18 Mg++ 10
| Absent in soft water
|
| Fe Iron 15 0 Fe++/Fe+++ 1000
| Absent under good light, unless fertilized
|
| Other Trace elements 10 0 Ions 1000
| Sufficient with good feeding, otherwise fertilizer
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[EthanCote.com]

Holy Batman, I think I left my chemistry text back in university...

Too many numbers, me mind going numb...errrr think I'll just stick with flourite ;D

But thanks for taking the time to type that down, I'm sure there will be others that can use all that info ;D

hehe


Cheers,

Chi.

[RAWesolowski]

Ethan and Ralph,

The following is the reply from SeaChem regarding Onyx:

Onyx and Onyx Sand will slightly alter these parameters. Most of the
discus hobbyists here that keep them in planted aquaria, use Onyx
Sand. The pH stays slightly alkaline (7.2 - 7.4) never exceeding 7.6
- 7.8. Granted these are not ideal conditions for discus, they have
even laid eggs in these waters and don't seem to mind. Flourite and
Flourite Red do not contain any carbonate and therefore will not
offer any buffering ability. If you do not like the color of
Flourite, Flourite Red may be a better option. Flourite Red is simply
a more uniform red without the black in Flourite (the same red that
is in Flourite). If you like the idea of a darker substrate and don't
mind the slight influence in GH and KH, Onyx or Onyx Sand is ideal.
--
Best Regards,
Seachem Technical Support,rb~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.      www.seachem.com    888-SEACHEM

[Ralph]

Thanks Bob,
That's about what I remembered. At the time that I set up my first discus tank, I was going for a pH of 6.5, so I went with the Flourite. I would still like to try the Onyx someday, I just don't know if the extra minerals are worth the higher pH.
I sure like Seachem's honesty and scientific approach though.
Are you going ahead with the Onyx? If so, I would like to hear about your results.
Thanks, Ralph

[RAWesolowski]

I'm currently on the road in Milwaukee. Stopped at a lfs and found the Seachem Onyx at $24.99 for 7 kg. Thought it was abit pricey as I didn't pay that for fluorite and fluorite was priced at $24.99 at the same store.

My next stop was at a client, another lfs. I had mentioned the product to him but he doesn't normally carry the product. He surprised me with a 20 lb. bag of Eco Complete Planted Aquarium Substrate from Carib Sea. Product is biologically active and lists ingredients. Comes in black. Price was right and I will give it a try.

Went to the Carib Sea website but no info on product? Must be good, it has a discus on package!

[EthanCote.com]

Can't seem to find anything about that product RAWesolowski. But I'll keep on trying.

Please let us know how it goes such as effectiveness, does it break down over time, does it affect water chemistry, etc...

Many thanks.


Cheers,

Chi.

[ronrca]

"biologically active"? What is that suppose to mean? ???

[EthanCote.com]

Hi gang,

I was calling around the lfs looking for flourite but unfortunately came up empty handed.

I was told of a German product from Aqualine called Terralite that was suppose to be a great product for plants. Has anyone try this product out?

Any pros and cons related to this product?

Thanx.


Cheers,

Chi.

[RAWesolowski]

Ron -

The "biologically active" thing is that it is supposed to accelerate the tank break-in period. Seems everyone is coming out with products designed to help prevent new tank syndrome and get the aquarium. Some are additives, some are filter items others are gravel. Must be a take0off from the live sand for marine aquariums.

[ronrca]

Interesting! Though I still would love to see it happen. Its too bad that these big companies actually blind people into believing this stuff. Its sad because the average fishkeeper will keep spending his money on this stuff and really not accomplish much anyways. Though I could be wrong. They may have come up with a strain of bacteria with some kind of modification that can live without 02 and food, but yet still function after a shelve life. ???

[ChloroPhil]

Flourite is wonderful stuff. It's basically baked clay that is high in iron and is really good at breaking down nutrients into a form your plants can more easily use. It doesn't add nutrients to your tank itself and doesn't break down.

I had some serious success keeping Crypts in a 100% flourite substrate with 1.8 w/g compact flourescent light, with small amounts of a homebrewed liquid fertilizer. If you're planning on keeping swords you could get away with flourite and a substrate additive such as Flourish Tabs.

If flourite it too pricey try Shultz Clay Soil Conditioner or Shultz Profile/Aquatic Soil. They're cheaper and work really well too.

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Biotypical.

Thanks for the info.

I did brought the terralit and have been using it in my tank for over 3 weeks now. The crypts and sag seems to be doing well. The cockskews not as well and the swords has stopped dying, which is a good sign.

From your info, I guess I need to buy additional nutrients in the form of tabs since if I understand you correctly, the terralit does not provide any real nutrients but rather function as a binding agent.


Cheers,

Chi.

[ChloroPhil]

Most substrates don't provide nutrients, the only one that I can think if which might would be the Sera stuff..is that the Teralit or is that a Dupla product? Once you let a substrate age it'll have enough mulm and nutrients in it for all but the really heavy root feeders, swords and crypts. In that case you'll want to suppliment the substrate and occasionally add Nitrate, Potassium, and Phosphate to your water.