Ok Now this is serious!!!!! HELP. Discus zits again.

[daninthesand]

Well they've been in a Qtank with salt and heat for a day & a half now and they look worse. The sore on the worse one is red and has white nodules coming out of it. Other then that the worst thing is that they are just sort of leaning on the tank bottom with their face pointed up. It's not a good sight. Yesterday they still ate the 3 meals I put in there, no uneaten food. But I doubt they'll do that today.

Any other suggestions?

What a pain.....!

I've looked in the diseases section and the links mentioned, but can't seem to find anything specific. Cary mentions fluke tabs and clout, but I'm not sure this is what I have.

[brewmaster15]

I would go with Clout Dan.

its broad spectrum to cover many of what could be the probelm. Treat 1/2 strength on day one and see how they take the meds.

hth,
al


ps if you have formalin, you may want to go the route of a formalin dip first.

[DarkDiscus]

Al,

If you had to guess, what would you think the problem may be with Dan's fish?

John

[daninthesand]

Thanks Al.

Any idea what this might be?

I'll seek out the clout and/or formalin. I'm pretty sure I can get clout at the LFS, but formalin? Is it available over the counter maybe at a pharmasist?

Daniel

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dan,
It may be just a virus, and if so will go away on its own. The times I have seen this as a virus though, the fish was not stressed.

I am hoping it is not , but it might be an intamuscular nematode. if it is, the clout may drive them out so that you'll see them hanging off the fish... read these links....

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1092

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1884

Thats worse case scenario though. it could be a protozoan problem othen they start with a whitish area , and the perimeter becomes inflamed...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1076

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1077


hth,
al


ps formalin in canada may be tough to find, a pharmacy may have it or any pond supply house.

[Rick_May]

I've seen these 'zits' occasionally but they usually cleanup in a few days with water changes. Worst case salt has cleaned them up. My fish would get them before I saw the light and went bare bottom. What I wonder is if it could be one of these zits that has become infected with a bacteria?

[daninthesand]

Thanks AL.

I found out I can get Formalin, Flubendazole, Metronidazole, Praziquantel, Kanacyn, Maroxy, Fluke Tabs & Malachite Green. That's it. Not sure about Clout. I have to wait until more lfs stores open.

btw They were treated with 2 TbSp of salt per 10g and the heat is at 90ºF. Maybe I should increase the salt concentration to 1tbsp per gallon as I have used in the past for general bactrial/protozoal skin lesions.

Thanks again.

I'll keep you posted.

[daninthesand]

Yikes!

I just checked out those links. Thanks AL. I had already read the one where Barb lost all her fish. I sure hope that not what is going on here!!! ???

I'm not sure this is the same but time will tell.

And the pictures on the last two links, don't really reflect what is being seen on my fish.

I'll continue to monitor the situation and have meds on standby.

Thanks everyone.

[brewmaster15]

Dan, try a salt dip....


http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/VM007


or at least go up to 1 tablepsoon/1gal water like youve done in the past.

hth,
al

[daninthesand]

Al.

I like that link. Thank you. I'm not sure if I can figure out those calculations, but I see if I can come up with something. Basically not sure how to go from % conc to tbsp per gallon!.

Daniel

[daninthesand]

Here is an updated set of pix of the sore as it is today. Quite a bit different than a couple of days ago. I really can't say they are worms for sure. Might just be fungal/protozoan opportunistic infections due to the sore itself.

Has anyone seen this either?

I think I might try heavier salt dosages (1 tbsp/gal) to start.

[daninthesand]

Here's a close up.

PS> How do you attach more than one pic per post?

[brewmaster15]

Dan,
The salt sounds good. Another suggestion for you. Net that fish, remove from the tank, and place on a wetpaper towels while still in the net.
Take hydrogen peroxide and use either a syringe or Q-tip .place a drop of it on that wound. Let sit for about 15-30 seconds. that will remove any surface parasite at teh location, and will help it heal if its infected. Then put it in the tank wiith salt at 1:1gal

I did this with a fish that had what I determine after was probably a virus. the whole procedure takes a minute or 2 to do..

-al

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

Geez, that's ugly! Definitely worse, that's for sure. I'd have thought that the salt and w/c would do the trick, but it looks more like you might be heading for some real meds... Al will take care of ya!

John

[Carol_Roberts]

I've never seen anything like that before (including pictures). Remember extra air with high temps. I believe I've read not to use Formalin at high temps?

What does fish tuberculosis look like?

Carol :heart1:

[DREW]

I hope everything works out for you. Its beautiful fish. He or she's weight & color looks good so hopefully its strong enough to recover. Do you feed your fish live foods?

[daninthesand]

Drew. Thanks for the compliment. Check you IM for my reply. Just wanna keep this post focused on the subject. :D

Al, I will try the 1tbsp/gallon salt treatment. I thought about the peroxide trick too. I'm afraid the handling might just stress the fish out a bit too much right now. They were moved to a Q tank recently. I'd rather avoid this for now. But it is a good idea. it has worked for me in the past. When I say me, I mean ME, not my fish! Ha ha :D

Will keep you posted.

Daniel

[daninthesand]

Well things have changed. For good and bad. Of the two fish that had the zit like spots, the one which never got any worse than a zit has recovered. the zit has comletely disappeared. This was with heat (90) and salt at 1tbsp/gal.

The other one unfortunately is not so lucky. That sore has gotten larger. About twice the size and twice as ugly. When you see it you go "holy crap!" I do not have access to a digital camera right now, but it kinda looks like the scales and skin are gone at the centre of the sore. You can see the meat! At the periphery its like the scales and skin ae lifting. And it looks red and swollen.

So yesterday I took the fish out and dabbed the area with hydrogen peroxide as Al suggested. Talk about foam! Well after about 1 minute of dabbing the area repeatedly, I replaced the fish into a brand new clean aquarium with fresh aged water at 90 degrees. This morning the sore seems to be looking a bit better and might actually be healing. Or it might be my imagination! Wishfull thinking.

I have not tried to feed the guy for a couple days now, trying to keep water quality pristine, and he seems to swim around a bit, but certainly is not very active. At least he's not cowering in the back and looking all black.

So hopefully the peroxide has helped. We'll see....

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

That sounds at least encouraging! I'm wishing you all the luck with that fish. Hopefully the peroxide will start the healing process anyway!

John

[Francisco_Borrero]

I agree in that it sounds encouraging. If it were my fish, I wouldn't do anything else to the wound, until determining in which directions is going (better or worse). My guess is that after the peroxide branding it should start recovering. If it does begin to improve, I would probably add a little melafix for a few days, and I will feed well but with non-polluting foods (earthworms, blackworms, a little non-desintegrating pellets).
Good luck, Francisco.

P.S. The zits I had in one of my fish last month went away very quickly, using only salt and heat.

[Liz_Streithorst]

Guys, if it bubbled like crazy with the peroxide, wouldn't that indicate a staph infection? I don't know a lot about fish yet but I do know that NOTHING bubbles like staph.

Liz

[daninthesand]

Hi all.

John and Fransisco thanks for the words of encouragement. The foaming from the peroxide was quite a bit, but no more so than many other wounds I've dabbed with it. Liz, I think peroxide behaves that way in general. The more debris/cells/infection it encounters, the more it fizzes. The degree of fizzing is related to the amount not the type? I'm not sure though.

I just had another look at the wound and it really does appear to be less swollen now. :thumbsup:

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dan,
Thats sounds good. You can re-apply it again if necessary.

One thing that I would also do is treat that water with an antibiotic. If its as bad as you indicate it may heal on the outside and spread on the inside. I know it tough to get meds in canada, but if you can get ampicillian, or oxytetracycline I'd use it. Its only a guess as to the nature but if its bacterial... something that treats septicemia, or severe fin rot may be required.

hth,
al

[daninthesand]

Hi Al.

You're not kidding its hard to get meds in Canada. What a pain. basically hard to get anything here... (except decent beer).

I do have a bottle of amoxicillan 250mg tablets left over from my prescription from recent dental surgery. Do you think that might help? Any idea on dosage?

Daniel

[Carol_Roberts]

Lol, Dan.
No need to waste those antibiotics on yourself when the discus might need them ;)
Carol :heart1:

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

How's the fish doing today? I had a dream last night that my fish had pimples (lots of them on each fish) and I was freaking out. I woke up laughing at 3 in the morning after my wife (in the dream) told me to try Clearasil....

LOL

John

[jim_shedden]

Hi Dan : Hope all is well this morning. I have been watching this thread intently. I am only sorry that I cannot help. I know just enough to make myself dangerous let alone advice someone else on a matter such as this. I will let you know however that if you ever require metro I can get it for you very inexpensively. Don't get me wrong this is not a drug deal. ;D. My pharmacist gets it for me but he puts on the label: "VETERNARY USE ONLY". If you are in a jam ....let me know. I was hoping that I would tune in this morning to learn that the Hydrogen peroxide did the job. Please let us know the status.

Best Regards : Jim

[daninthesand]

Carol. That's too funny. Actually the amox' is done for my needs. I had some left over because I was told to stop taking it. ha ha.

John. That kills me! But its not the first time i heard clearasil regarding this post.

And Jim. Thanks for the offer. Check you IM for my reply.

update.

Well, yesterday evening I checked out that sore again and it appeared more swollen. The fish is starting to cower in the back of the tank. Not a good sign. This is likely due to his being sick, but may also partly be due to his being alone (My fish tend to cower when alone)

So I took out the fish and swabbed the site with peroxide. This time I went beyond just swabbing. I took a hyperdermic syring and squirted some peroxide under the edges of the wound under the skin where the swelling occured. The fizzing was not nearly as bad as it was the first time. I'm taking this as a sign of reduced infection. (fingers crossed).

It amazes me how discus in general seem to tolerate handleing. This guy does not even flinch with all this poking and proding.

This morning, he's still alive. The sore looks a bit better? ???. I think so. Last night I did a 50% water change and replaced the salt. (at 1 tbsp/gal)

I'll see how things go today.

Daniel.

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

If this fellow survives the treatment, he has to be one of your all time favorites. He's superfish!

Good luck again!

John

[joanr]

Dan,

I've seen a water proof antibiotic cream that you could use. It's demonstrated in the Degen book, but I don't have it here to get the name of the stuff. It might help.

Joan

[daninthesand]

joan. funny you should mention that. i have a prescription for an antibiotic cream for myself which I am going to fill today hmmm. while i'm thinking of using my own prescription meds for my fish, maybe i'll try the cream too.... ha ha.

[daninthesand]

btw. I have been taking photos as things have progressed (regressed?). Its film though. The roll is almost done. I'll get it developed, scan it and post it to the appropriate time frame for future and previous posts as the pix dictate. My goal here is to have a photographic record of the disease process as it happens. Basically just an excuse to make use of all that darn camera equipment i own! I still don't have enough though. I NEED a digital....Santa?

Daniel

[joanr]

I looked in the Degan book when I got home from work. It only says to mix an antibiotic into a waterproof cream and then apply directly to the infected area. Consult your vet for ingredients. He didn't mention which antibiotic or which cream he uses to mix it with. Hmmm, wonder if neo-sporin is waterproof? That's some great stuff....

Joan

[daninthesand]

Things continue to improve. :bounce2:

I took more pix:thumbsup: (comming soon to a website near you)

Before work today, i took a good look at my sore fishie. (or should I say fishie sore?) Hmmm, swelling seems less, redness reduced as well. woohoo, things are looking up.

This evening, after work (12 hours later), things have noticably improved. I see no evidence of swelling at all. And no redness. The sore is looking like it might even be starting to close/heal. That may be just because the swelling is down.

btw the peroxide i used was full strength from the bottle. Label sayz:

"3% solution, 10volume"

To update: I've been treating with salt at 1 tbsp / gallon. temp is around 88 to 90, depending if I forget to replace the lid on the tank (d'oh! :P)

water changes have been 50% about every 3 days. (salt replaced) the fish is in 50 gallon tank which is only half full.

twice now I've cleaned the sore with peroxide. NO OTHER MEDS USED SO FAR

Today it does not look like I need to.

pix to follow in the next few days. whenever i get up off my butt to bring in the film . . .

Good Deal Dan!


THANKS ;D

[jim_shedden]

Fabulous! The power of "SIMPLY". You could not buy this info.
Thanks for keeping us update.

Best Regards : Jim

[DarkDiscus]

Congrats Dan,

Looking forward to seeing the pics!

;D

John

[brewmaster15]

Great news Dan!

as a side note , you can use neosporin/ polymyxin B antibiotic ointment (ointments are in a waterproof base cremes are not.)These are over the counter in the USA and I believe in canada as well. These work well for superficial wounds, but not on deep festering wounds( same with how they are used on people)


glad to hear the peroxide is working!

[daninthesand]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. :D

What can I say? Thanks to everyone for all your help. It is much appreciated.

The fish in question is a real trooper. HE/she? barely looks like there ever was a sore at all. I'm anxious to see him get back to his old self again when he gets reintroduced to the rest of the crew. (oh yes, more pix again today).

keeping in mind that this was probably just an external infection, how much longer do you think I should keep him quarantined?

Daniel

[DarkDiscus]

Dan,

I would keep him segregated for no less than a few weeks. Let him build up his strength and keep the conditions optimal for him until he is ready. A little pampering will go a long way!

John

[keno]

Dan, its great to hear things are working out, thanks for sharing this hard time with us. Its a great learning experience.

Ken

[daninthesand]

Ok Gang.

As promissed, I finally got around to developing the film containing the pix of the progress of the sore that infected the Brilliant Blue that was the subject of this post.

I will post them now with a description of the time frame as best as I can remember.

Hopefully some of you will find this a useful tool to help one of your fish one day.

My treatment for the fish was relatively simple. Salt. Salt. Salt. And a couple of dabs of H202 (hydrogen peroxide) directly to the wound as Brew suggested. Great advice Al!! :thumbsup:

The previous posts desribe what I did in more detail.

It is important to note that partially due to my stubborness and partly to my inability to obtain or unwillingness to use other means, I USED NO PHARMALOGICAL AGENTS WHATSOEVER to cure this fish. Other than salt and peroxide. Call it an experiment if you will.

As the pix will prove the angry sore in question healed nicely. :D

If you recall the sore from previous pix it was nasty. It got even worse and developed into something like this: reeaaal nasty! The wound was about an inch long at this point. Amazing since it started out as just a pimple!

[daninthesand]

This is about a week into the treatment regime. You can't really see a difference by the picture but the demeanor of the fish was improving. He was less likely to cower in the back corner, choosing to do so in the front corner instead! LOL. Made for easy photo shoot though.

You can see that skin is still quite raised around the wound. Immediately after this picture was shot, I gave him the first qtip swap of H2O2.

[daninthesand]

This shot is about 2 or 3 days after the last one and 24 hours after a second H2O2 treatment. This time I used a hyperdermic needle and squirted the peroxide into the wound (I did NOT poke the needle into the meat!) and concentrated on getting under the raised areas under the skin surrounding the wound. If you recall the the wound was gaping. No skin in the open area, just raw , sore fish meat. That's gotta hurt! amazingly though the fish did not flinch a bit. Probably because he was just plain tired of being sick. Weak in general i guess, but much better than he was at first.

[daninthesand]

As you can see real improvement here! The skin has almost healed over and the infection appears to be all but gone. At this point (still in salt at 1 tbsp per gallon) I started feeding this fish a bit more. He ate shyly, partly because he was alone I figure, but started looking like his old active self again. If I recall this was about a week or so after the last picture (next time I'll take notes!) btw H2O2 treatment was done 3 times total, that's it. And of course WC WC WC with salt replaced. went through a lot of salt! But salt is cheap and it worked!

[daninthesand]

Further progress! This close up shows that even the scales appear to have started growing back. You can still see discolouration around the wound area, but it look's quite harmless. At this point the fish showed no signs of stress and was feeding heavily now. Again, my recollection is foggy but I believe this pic is another week, maybe two since the last one. ;D

[daninthesand]

Last picture. Shortly ( an hour) after this picture was taken, probably a day or three after the last one, I put the fish back to the tank with his other buds. He was one of nine fish I got as a batch together. He was one of two of that batch that suffered from the zit, but the only one that suffered the progression to "wound" status.

And within a week after that he was back in with the best of 'em, batteling for the choicest females on the block! (or so I like to think).

A hard battle won by a real fighter. He had a lot of soul. Don't you agree!?

[jeep]

Dan,

Thanks for the details and the progression!!!

Glad he turned out ok!

[Francisco_Borrero]

Excellent work !!! Both in curing the fish, and on the progression of healing and the quality of photographs. I just wish you and us knew what was the source of the ulcer in the first place.
Congratulations. Cheers, Francisco.

[Ardan]

Thanks Dan ! :thumbsup:

Ardan :sun:

[daninthesand]

Francisco. Yes you are correct that would have been nice to know. My GUESS is this. It basically started with your typical bacterial little zit that we see from time to time on our fish and go away without notice. This time for some reason, the zit got infected and it simply progressed from there with increasing infection over time untill we ended up with the huge gaping sore we see. The skin was clearly damaged from the infection and with no skin and slime layer to protect the area, further infection rapidly set in.

Had I used antibiotics early on, it may never have progessed as it did. I don't know. It was an experiment to me to try and cure this without meds. Probably not the wisest choice but it proved to be satisfactory in this case. It may not be sufficient next time.


My main motive was to cure the fish. But secondary to that is I don't want to always use drugs if not necessary. There are a lot of potential secondary drawbacks to using drugs, cost, exposure to the environment when flushed down the drain, that sort of thing. JMO Sure I have no first hand knowledge or documentation that the drawbacks exist. But it is my choice to try other alternatives.

For me, the less drugs the better, if one can achieve the same result without them.

In additon, hopefully someone in a similar position who reads this might be able to take comfort that despite their inability to obtain meds (say), they could try a salt cure and end up with a good outcome.

Daniel