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georgef
11-11-2002, 09:53 AM
Has anybody tried this?

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.html

georgef
11-11-2002, 12:11 PM
OK, let me rephrase the question...

Any opinions on this? ;)

Unlike most "bacterial supplements" (Cycle and the like) this stuff has a shelf life and must be kept refrigerated.

There's some interesting reading in the links to Dr. Hovanec's papers. He reportedly discovered through DNA testing that nitrobacters aren't actually the bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation, rather nitrospira is.

http://www.marineland.com/science/biospirarep/6Nitrobacter.html

saints27
11-11-2002, 11:23 PM
Cycle is suppose to be refrigerated as well
sorry no opinion on the rest of it ,its just that i read the bottle of cycle the other day and it said to refrigerate it and I hadnt been doing it.

Jamie

RandalB
11-11-2002, 11:54 PM
I've read up on it and talked to Marineland but have been unable to find anyone selling it retail around me. I really want to do a test run (Not with discus though) They promise a lot, but if it really works it would be great stuff.


RandalB

RAWesolowski
11-12-2002, 01:20 AM
George,

Good concept, but...

The problem is in the distribution system. In general, companies sell through distributors who in turn sell their products to the lfs. Distributors like products that they can put into warehouses without temperature control, think mid-summer in South and mid-January in the North. The heat extremes will wreak havoc on the product.

The lfs wants a product with a long shelf life that requires no special handling. The freezer handles everything from frozen rodents to fish products. The lfs will be less than excited about purchasing a refrigerated unit to handle the product.

A couple of companies have made in roads by providing the refrigerated unit, but you never know the condition of the product coming from the distributor's warehouse and the manufacturer doesn't want to alienate their primary customer, the distributor.

So, would you trust the product when it has the potential to be destroyed in:

1. Shipment to warehouse
2. Warehouse
3. Shipment to lfs

jsojda
11-12-2002, 10:45 AM
Hello all,

I do part time work in a LFS, and we just got this product in this week. It does have a relitivily short shelf life and must be kept in a fride. So much so that the Marineland people do provide a display fridge for the store. I havn't tried it yet because it has a pretty heafty price tag.(even with my discount) i beleieve it is 20 bucks for an oz. (retail)

The literature on it sounds promising but could also be good marketing....

korbi_doc
11-12-2002, 03:52 PM
:bounce2: Seems to me that using a fully matured sponge filter(s) would be as effective & less expensive than these purchased products.(does this go without saying? you can hit me) If one has a healthy tank utilize extra sponges with all the right bacteria & save???? JMHO Dottie :P :P

georgef
11-12-2002, 04:17 PM
Hi, Dottie --
I'm about 10-11 days into my fishless cycle and having not yet registered any nitrites, I was thinking that if this stuff looked promising and was available, I'd give it a shot. Getting a bit impatient, you see. ;) :)

I don't want to go to my LFS or anyplace like that for some seeded media because of the chance of picking up some nasties besides the good bacteria.

:)

Bob --
Excellent points. Someplace else (I think it was on a newsgroup, maybe) I had read that the expected life-span of a batch of this stuff if properly kept in a fridge was about two weeks so the logistical problems associated with getting this stuff from the mfg to the distributors to the end users do seem daunting.

George

korbi_doc
11-12-2002, 04:39 PM
:bounce2: Boy George, do I ever understand where you're coming from, been ther,'donethat as they say!! When I first setup my 90g, for discus,(rejuvenated old tank that had been out of commission for few yrs) I went thru the cycle, thought I had it under control, put the new fish in, & then ran into trouble with NH3 anyway. Don't have a clue why except that the new tank syndrome takes a while to get under control, months it seems to me. If ever I start another it will be overfiltered with mature sponge filters even if I have to borrow them, in addition to the set-up permanent filters. I only say this cuz of my bad 1st experience. The only thing I can suggest is GO SLOWLY!!! & if one of these bacterial products will help by all means use it. Also, remember there are resin pillows to put in filters for the dreaded NH3, these helped me early on. So did Prime. We use all the tricks we can to push the reaction time, but time is the necessity. Be patient & you will get there. JMO Dottie

11-13-2002, 04:59 PM
I'm pretty good friends w/ the guys at my LFS (even though they have ugly discus, they sell ocean nutrition foods) and they just got the stuff in. One of the old guys set up a new tank with angels and tetras and just threw the stuff in and says he's gunna see how it works. I'll let ya know in a week or so how it worked out.
Brad

georgef
11-13-2002, 05:01 PM
Thanks, Brad.

I'll be very curious as to the results.

:)

RandalB
11-14-2002, 02:18 AM
Brad,

Please keep us updated on this stuff. I'd pay the price when I suddenly obtain several new fish and have to sneak a new tank into the house past the Mrs. Can't always have enough sponge filters on standby (no room in the tanks for fish!!)

RandalB

11-14-2002, 05:57 PM
haha...i don't have a mrs. yet, just parents. Wait...maybe that's even worse??? But anyway, i'm going down to the LFS this weekend to pick up some meds so i'll check on that then. That should be about the right timing for about a week or so on him having the stuff in his tank. He stocked his tank pretty full he said just to see if the stuff works, so if he says it works then i'd try it in the future. I'll keep ya posted.

11-16-2002, 09:10 PM
ok, I just got back from the LFS and got the rulling on Bio-Spira....

After 4 days the water read as follows:
Ammonia: 6 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Nitrates: 0 ppm

the reason there are no nitritres or natrates is that none of the ammonia produced by the fish was broken down. So, in effect, the product was "worthless" in the eyes of my LFS (let you be reminded they they are trying to SELL this product, too...). The fish in the tank were still alive, but only because he had put a root in there and the ph was 5.5. He put a checkerboard discus in there yesterday so we'll see how it goes. He's gunna try it again on another tank and see how it does.

Carol_Roberts
11-17-2002, 02:34 PM
I think 6 ppm ammonia after 4 days says it all . . . . . . why would he sacrifice a discus and more fish to re do the experiment? Will he use a different bottle?
CArol :heart1:

dm
11-17-2002, 04:04 PM
I can't think of a good reason to put a Discus in a tank with ANY ammonia in it. I can understand putting hearty fish in there and keeping a close eye on it while it "cycles" but to put a Discus in there doesnt make much sense to me.

11-18-2002, 04:22 PM
he isn't a discus hobbiest...and Carol he's not going to redo the experiment. the fish didn't die the first time because the ph was so low, close to 5.0 so the ammonia wasn't toxic. Oh well, i guess we just know to stay away from the stuff, unless it works miracles next time.

brad

dm
11-18-2002, 08:03 PM
Thanks for the info Brad.

georgef
11-18-2002, 08:32 PM
Thanks, Brad.

I must say I'm more than just a little disappointed. :(

Well, it's not like I could get my hands on some, anyway. I've checked virtually every LFS near me and no one I've contacted has it nor do they plan to carry it.

RAWesolowski
11-19-2002, 12:47 AM
Ammonia is toxic above base (7 PH) but is ammonium, a non-toxic compound in acidic water. Ammonium will test as ammonia...

The discus was safe if the water was 5.0 PH.

11-20-2002, 09:47 PM
Well everybody, this story has taken yet another turn. After the dissapointment in the product, my LFS buddy called Marineland to see what the problem was. as it turns out, he is only the second person to have this problem and it has worked quite well for many others. He used tap water to set up the tank and added Prime to it. This locks up the ammonia so it does not get to the fish. The theory is that if it is locked up, then the bacteria can't break it down for whatever reason. The only other person that had this problem used Prime as well. I convinced them to use the product on a new tank they set up in the store - a 90 gallon bowfront that they will stock fairly heavily. They set it up with pure RO water and added minerals back, so if the product is true, all should go well. I'll provide an update soon, as they just put the fish in today.
brad

georgef
11-21-2002, 09:49 AM
I've been following a thread on rec.aquaria.freshwater.goldfish where someone is setting up a new 50 gal tank. She added two three inch goldfish on Friday along with the Bio-Spira. On Tuesday evening, she recorded 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 5 ppm nitrates.

Wish I could find some around here and give it a shot. :(

11-21-2002, 11:28 PM
George, that sounds like a nice test and all, but I think I have one to beat it. I have gone to the LFS the past 3 days in a row (they're gunna buy some of my fish) and they want to do a real test on the stuff to see how it works. So, with my help, we set up a brand-new 90 gallon tank with a wet/dry filter and some roots and rocks and stuff. We put in the Bio-Spira and then proceded to put in between 90 and 100 inches of fish! Basically, we put in 110% of the recommended amount that Marineland gives. I'll give ya'll updates frequently on how it works. If those fish are still alive in 5-7 days, then the product is well worth it in my opinion.

brad

01-02-2003, 11:46 PM
OK,
The experiment is over. 100 inches of fish were put into a 90 gallon tank because they wanted to test Bio-Spira at about 110% of Marineland's claim. A month later, the same 100 inches of fish are still in the tank. Ok, maybe they grew a bit, but they're the same fish...you get the point. The key here is that it works! So, if you're ever caught where you need to jumpstart a tank in just a day without introducing a cycled sponge, then this is the way to go. It works. The second day, third, forth, etc ammonia and nitrites both stayed very close to 0. They weren't measureable at least. So it's nice to know that this product is the real deal, and no one here that has the money and/or desire to start a tank this way shouldn't hesitate to do so.

Brad

RandalB
01-03-2003, 02:33 AM
Now all I have to do is find someone who carries the stuff....


RandalB

01-03-2003, 10:44 AM
Randal,
just so you know, it's like $20 for enough to treat like 20 gallons at my LFS. I think it would be good to have availible for an emergency, but i wouldn't use it just because i could unless it comes down in price.

Mykuhl
01-04-2003, 02:08 PM
Brad, If Bio Spira does not work if a water conditioner like Prime is used, then what would someone use to their water if it contained chloramine?

01-04-2003, 08:47 PM
It's only Prime that problems have been reported with. Others should be ok, but if you don't want to risk it, the most logical way IMO is to fill the tank, turn on the filters, and let it run for a full day and that will get the chlorine out. Then you could go to the store and buy fish and Bio-Spira at the same time and put both in and you'd be good to go. If you have chloramines then you need to get something that will knock that out as well. If you don't know the difference, call your local fish store and ask them what your city water has. They should know for sure, unless it's like a petsmart.

HTH,
Brad

01-05-2003, 12:50 AM
If you can break down chloramines in a water-aging tank with a cycled sponge, wouldn't it be logical that this product would also break down the chloramines in the water??? or am I just talking outta my *ss?

01-05-2003, 02:34 PM
i don't know enough about chloramines to help you on that one.

Mykuhl
01-05-2003, 02:55 PM
Hmm... Interesting. I wonder why there would be a problem with Prime and not a similar product that removes chloramines and ammonia?

01-05-2003, 04:32 PM
I don't know, but when my LFS called Marineland, Prime was the only water conditioner that they would verify that caused problems. If you're really curious, call up marineland and ask them.

ronrca
01-06-2003, 01:47 PM
Im also very curious since I have chlormines in my water and use Prime. YOu can not fill a tank with water that contains chloramines with an established filter. Well, you can but you will not have a biological filter anymore. The chlorine would kill you bacteria! Or not?

It is true the Prime binds the toxins however according to Seachem, the bio will still process the ammonia. There must be some true to it because I may some experiences with it in my 30G tank. I thought my tank was cycled but i guess not enough to handle addition fish so I got an ammonia spike happening. I treated the tank with lots of Prime, 2x, 3x, 4x so my discus would not stress out. It worked and the bio did process the ammonia and nitrites. After 1-2 weeks, I did not need to use Prime as the bio build up.

NOw if Prime binds the ammonia and the bio does not process it, first of all Seachem claims are false (personally e-mailed them and got replies) and second the bio would of never 'grew'. ???

01-06-2003, 02:44 PM
I was sure i read somewhere(in a few places) right here on the forum that the best way to age your water if you have chloramines(not chlorine) is to use a cycled sponge in your holding tank....obviously you wouldn't just throw water with chloramines in your aquarium.... :) If that's indeed the case, as long as you could age the water first(with a cycled sponge) you wouldn't have to add prime....of course if you had an extra cycled sponge, you wouldn't need to use the product to cycle your tank....hahahaha

ron: after some consultation, i realized that even if the cycled sponge broke down the amonia part of the chloramines, the chlorine part would kill the bacteria in the sponge....so, i am indeed talking out of my as*....hahaha

ronrca
01-08-2003, 07:02 PM
LOL!

I know! So you are back to using a dechlor! However, I have heard that filtering through carbon will break the ammonia/chlorine bind therefore allowing you to use a cycled filter. What that comes down to is having 2 filters on your holding tanks and turning one on before the other (or filling the holding tank through a carbon filter). The end result is nitrate before the water enters the aquarium. (Grrrr! I hate chloramines!) I'll just use Prime for now since the ammonia is bonded by the Prime and handled by the bio filter! :D

01-08-2003, 07:53 PM
you know what's really funny?? I DON'T even have chloramines in my water!! and I can't remember how/why I even got dragged into this particular thread....hahahahahahahaha.... ::)
Elvis has now left this thread.... ;D ;D