The last straw: death or life???

[EthanCote.com]

Ok,

I am very close to giving up on one of me Discus. He was the one that has stopped eating for 14 days now (here was a thread I started on him: http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=4215).

I have treated him for Hex and now what I believe to be Capillaria.

I have tried the following treatment (of course not all at once):
- aquarium salt
- epsom salt
- Metro
- Fluke tabs (this is the most recent treatment)
- I have Flubendazole on the way (so haven't try this treatment yet)

Physical symptoms:
- his belly seems less bloated
- he still excetes yellowish/white gelly poop
- stop eating and still show no interest what so ever in food
- starting to get thin


The only treatment I didn't try was the heat treatment. I brought a new heater (since my last one cracked), a Visi-Therme 300W by Marineland. I cranked it up to max and the temperature has stabilized at 90F. Apparently that is the highest I can get it to go. Not sure if this 90F is good enuff to kill whatever is bugging the dude. What heater do you guys uses that can get tank to go up to 100F???

This has been a two weeks ordeal and I am so tired of saving him now and am close to giving up, since he hasn't shown any sign of getting healthy but seems to be going down hill slowly. He is in the other tanks with my other 5 healthy looking Discus. I just don't want to expose him to the others for too long in fear of some disease transmission.

I would have QT him but unfortunately do not have any extra tank at the moment. I would have gotten him one but its not a good time to do it now (lack of space and a needing to comprise with house mate).

Again I do not wish to stress my other fish (with treatment) just to save this one but if anyone has any final suggestion in treating him, I'm all ears. I was thinking of something drastic like a dip of some sort. Not sure which medication.

Sorry for the long winded post, but i'm at my wits end.

Thanx for listening.


Cheers,

Chi.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Chi...

The flubendazole should work... Yellowish feces is a sign of worms like capillaria.
When you get the flub, mix it with the food and treat everyone in the tank. As for the sickling.. The best drastic treatment is to tube it in.
I think I can mail you empty syringe, and piece of tubing to fit it. It should get across the border okay?I don't think its illegal but its worth a try, IM your mailing address to me.
You can also go to the pharamacy and get a small diameter glass eyedropper or infant syringe and tube it in with this.

hth,
al

[EthanCote.com]

hey Al,

Thanks for the offer, but I'll check at my local pharmacy first before I ask you to send the stuffs. If I can't find anything, I'll definitely give you a shout.

How much Flubendazole should I force it down his throat. I do not think I'm looking forward to this, but I'll do what it takes to get him well at this point.

I was thinking of placing him on a wet towl and then tube the medication down his throat? What is the best way of applying the medication without too much stress for him?

Thanks Al.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Ethan:
Try the flubendazole first. I'd like to hear how it works for you. If he doesn't respond then it's off to the rose bushes with him.
Carol :heart1:

[EthanCote.com]

I'll keep u posted Carol.

The medication is on its way from Mannitoba. Dave C is sending me some ;D

We shall c if the rose bushes will be getting extra fertilizier this month or not.


Cheers,

Chi.

[ronrca]

You know what Chi! I have a runt that has simliar symptons! Currently Im in the 21 day flubendazole treatment at treatment number 5, tonight being #6. They are in my grow out tank and all other discus are fine except this one. He is now the runt by far and Im even considering cunting him.

Symptons:
-not eating yet his belly looks fat
-crapping long white strings of something. I thought that I was tapeworm but I may be mistaken.
-no interest in anything, hangs around at the back of the tank
-dark, clamped fins also

Help needed! :(

[Barb Newell]

Hi Chi;

If you go to a veterinarian and ask for a 'urinary catheter' for a dog, they'll probably give you one with a very small syringe (my vet gave me a couple free) I can get you one and mail it if you need it. The catheter is very tiny and it is quite easy to get past the gills into the stomach. Anything bigger won't go past the gills.

Barb

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Ronrca,

Perhaps give Al's treatment a try. This way at least yer putting the runt to go use. ;D You can use him as a test subject since mine is not a runt but was one of the most beautiful fish in the tank.

And let me know how it turn out ;)

There is the alternative, Carol's idea of feeding the rose bushes. ;)

Take your pic.


Cheers,

Chi.

PS: I'll have a race with you to see which fish will cure faster :D We have to come up with a prize ;D

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Barb,

I need to shoot the medication through the gills? I thought I had to shoot it down his throat through his mouth??

I'm confuse...until I get this clear, I'll give you a shout should I need the 'urinary catheter'. Thanks for the offer Barb. ;)


Cheers,

Chi.

[ronrca]

Hmmm, Chi! I have never tried to use a syringe on a fish before and in actual fact, I dont even know what to do! :-[

Check out this thread. Some pics in it too. My discus looks just like the one in the pic. >:(
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1066;sta rt=0

Is Capillaria contiguous in a tank being treated with flubendazole? Is the long white stringy fece the actual worm? It gets quite long like an inch, sort transparent in places! The scary thing is that when Im doing the water change, I never see any around! Hmmmm!

[EthanCote.com]

Hi Ronrca,

Yup me too, never use a syringe before either so not exactly sure how to handle this. Hopefully Al wil get backs to us about this.

So Al if yer listening, what techniques did u use in treating the fish with a syringe?

Ronrca, apparently it looks like Capillaria is not contagious (in term of spreading through water form one fish to the next) but can be easily passed from one fish to another when they ingest the egg sacs. So if one fish have it, you can safely assume that all of them have it. If your discus is anything like mine, they are always looking for food and will sometimes pick up poops to eat.

The funny thing is, each time I see him poop yellowish/white jelly poops, I'll quickly chase him around with a net until he drop it so I can quickly pick it up before the other ingest it. ;D

If you do not see any whitish poop on the bottom of the tank, I'll do an x-rays of the others in the tank ;)


Cheers,

Chi.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Ronca:
Have you treated your fish for hexamita? You've just listed the classic symptoms. White or clear, stringy feces, dark discus, hiding in corner, not eating . . . . Use metronidazole sold as hex-a-mit, etc.

Don't follow package directions. Use 400 - 500 mg per 10 gallons every 24 hours after a 50% water change for 3 or 4 days. The temp o f the tank should be 90+ degrees before you start and the change water should be 90 degrees too. Keeep temp in 90's for a week or so after treatment. Fish should begin eating slowly. Feed very lightly during treatment.
Carol :heart1:

[ronrca]

Thanks Carol! I have some metro in a powder form already! I guess he will be going into the 20G qtank tonight!

400mg/10g every 8 hours for 3 days or is that a little too much? The other consideration is will he recover enough to grow out or will he stay a runt! He is only like 1.5" while the rest of his brothers/sisters are getting closer to 3"! I guess my question is, is it worth it or should I introduce him to the rose bush?

Caperlllia symptons are similar to Hex?

[EthanCote.com]

Thanks Carol, forgot all about that ;)

Hey Ronrca,

Apparently from my understanding, Capillaria and Hex goes hand in hand. I first treated my fish for Hex, then I follow up with Capillaria treatment once I saw different poop coming outta him.


Cheers,

Chi.

[brewmaster15]

Barb,
Thats an excellent idea!!!

Chi. The fish is netted an placed on wet newspaper, placed on a wet soft cloth. The tube is inserted in the mouth, and gently passed by the gills, down into the stomach. Sometimes it will come out the gills. But if you aim for dead center, it should be able to enter the stomach . For fenbendazole the doseI use is 75-100 mg/kg (2.2lbs), This drug is stronger than flubendazole, so you should be safe with the same dose. I have never tubed flubendazole...just fenbendazole though.

100mg meds for each 2.2 lb (~36ounces)fish. Ideally you need to weigh the fish, but a good guess-tamation can do, just err on the light side.

You'll need to make a stock solution (mix as well as possible) to draw from...something like 2 grams of flub in 25mls of water, for example....

=2000mg in 25 mls
=400mg in 5ml
=80mg in 1ml
=20mg in .25ml

so if your fish were 8 oz you would need to dose it with with a about 22mg of medicine, so you'd need about .25mls of that stock solution to dose that particular fish.

Someone please check my calculations ...Thanks,
al

[ronrca]

Wow! I hate when someone shoves things down my throat, can you imagine the poor discus? :P :'(

Would long does this take? What is the time limit for the discus being out of water?

[brewmaster15]

It only takes a minute to do. You have all the equipment ready... and then net the fish. intubate the fish, and release. It sounds harder than it is.


hth,
al

[EthanCote.com]

Thanks Al,

I'll give it a try. Gonna need a few days to receive the equipments for this delicate operation. In the meantime, I will do some dummy runs of the operation to make sure everything goes off without a hitch when the time comes. ;D

So its prepare medication, net fish, placed on wet newspaper, intubate the fish and release .... (should be a piece of cake :-\)

I'll keep you posted on the outcome.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Chi, got your message.
AL -- your calculations look correct.
I'll send the catheter out first thing in the am. Like Al said, shoot for the centre, slightly upward, I found that sometimes I ran into a block there, be patient and gently push then release then push again, it seems to opens up and you're able to get the catheter in about 1.5 - 2". It's helpful if there's another set of hands to inject the med while one holds the catheter in place, otherwise it comes out.

Also, I don't know if you have any 'hypno' or anything like that, it makes it a lot easier to do. The fish lays very still and it really helps.

Barb

PS I need your address. :) Good luck!

Suggestion; before you make him into rose fertilizer, why not try something like levamisole (treat in the water ) for the worms. Some claim that their fish pass worms within 24 hours, others it takes a little longer. WHAT DO YOU THINK AL?

[Barb Newell]

Good morning Chi;

Just sent the catheter, syringe and Tramisol ExpressPost. Will arrive Monday, at the latest Tuesday.

Try to find a way to use the tramisol - a cheap 5 gallon tank with a styrofoam lid. It just might do it.

Barb

[ronrca]

Well Chi, my little guy I put in my 10G Qt yesterday evening and Im using a HITH by Jungle at the moment. This stomach or intestines were huge like he shallowed a marble. Be kind of curious to actually see what is causing the bloating. This morning, he looked much better. His stomach is half as big now! Thanks Carol!

What about the other discus that were in the tank with him? Im half way thru treating with flubendazole, should I treat with metro after Im done fluben or shouldnt I be worried?

Thanks Al and Barb for the instruction of injecting meds!

I also was looking for meds and I had e-mailed jehmco! On their website, they do not list many meds like prazi, metro, panacur and I need to order some bulkheads anyways so I asked if they do carry them. Well, just in case someone is not aware, they do sell flubendazole, metronidazole, panacur (fenbendazole)and EM (erythromycin) Tablets! Praziquantel is going to be available soon.

For us here in Canada, jehmco mentions that we need to fill out and sign an Aquarium Drug Non-diversion Certificate which they will e-mail/fax! Shipping and crossing the border should not be a problem however they will not guarantee anything!

[EthanCote.com]

A great big Merci beaucoup Barb, yer an Angel :angel:

My sick Discus is in yer debt and now you are officially his godmother :heart2:

Danks ;)


Cheers,

Chi.

For Canadians trying to import drugs take a look at this link

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/food-aliment/friia-raaii/food_drugs-aliments_drogues/act-loi/e_k-schd-f.pdf

If the drug appears on this list it will probably get stopped at the border and turned back to the vendor. It happened to me with Metronidazole. Flubendazole does not appear on this list or any other data source available to the Govt of Canada. I asked if that meant it would get through and they thought it would but were unsure. You need a prescription to receive, ship or use these drugs in Canada. The fact that they're for veterinarian use doesn't matter, it means you must go to a vet to get them.

Dave

[Barb Newell]

Hi Chi, happy to help. Hope he makes it. If there's anything else I can do, please let me know. I emailed you my phone#, did you get it? Like I said, if I lived closer I'd come over and help.

Barb

[ronrca]

Yes! Thanks Dave! I have also e-mail jehmco that info and the link! Argggg! >:(
I wonder if you can buy HITH by Jungle though and have it come across the border? It has metron as an ingredient! I have some that I bought about 6 months ago! If you can not, then off to the petstores to buy as much as I can!

Prazi is also on the list! >:(
However, panacur and flubendazole are not! Do we have any vets in Canada that are members? :-\

Btw, did I not hear a number of years ago the word 'free trade'? Hmmm! Must be hearing things! >:(

Im wondering what it would take to get a prescription? "Hey Doc, my fish are sick and I need some metron!" :D

Btw Dave! Reading the Drug Act, it just mentions that schedule refers to selling only and I quote "No person shall sell any drug prescribed in schedule F". Does not say anything about buying from the US! My intent is to cure my fish, not sell! Barter and trade, thats not selling! ;D Anyways, Would that make a difference?

Free trade has nothing to do with it. It's just that since it's coming from the U.S. the govt has the ability to inspect it & refuse it. From the govt pov you should not have any of those drugs unless you buy them from a vet with a prescription. Some LFS have had these drugs removed from their shelves. I assume that if you buy stuff from an online store (or Jehmco for that matter) and it includes some drugs but is marked as "Aquarium Equipment" rather then "Tropical Fish Medications" the govt is less likely to inspect and less likely to turn it back. My shipment that was rejected was just meds and was marked as such. I've received stuff from PetSolutions that wasn't even opened. It's a crap shoot.

I doubt it would be that tough to get a prescription but I imagine you'd have to actually buy the drugs from the vet that issued it. That would be pricey I'll bet. And I couldn't get a prescription for 1kg of Metro from a vet and then sell it on the net. D'oh. That's ok though, I was a little concerned about shipping white powder in ziploc bags across North America. At some point someone was going to freak out and I'd find a SWAT team crawling through my backyard.

Dave

[EthanCote.com]

Oh my god, and then it happen....

The little guy ate...I didn't believe it at first, but he actually ate a pellet. Just one. wooo whoooo, there is still a chance for him after all.

He didn't stopped to amaze. He even poop out solid grayish/black poop. Wooo whooo.

But the happiness ends here, I later found out he still has whitish jelly poop.

So I took the intiative and place him in his own container away from the other fishes. Do not wish to risk reinfection again. So now he is in his own little bucket. I will try the Flubenzadole when it gets here, or should I try the levamisol? Which one is better?

Many thanks for any response....not out of the woods yet.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Chi, received your card today, thanks. It's very nice, it made my day!
I have sheep wormer but do not have sheep :). I have a dog, cat, fish but no sheep.

Anyway, I'm really happy that it worked on your fish and that he's better. You may want to repeat it in about 10 days in case there are eggs. I'll work on a name.

Barb

[ronrca]

Well, an update on my sick discus! Just to recap, he developed hex so I moved him to the 10G QT tank, rised the temp to 94F, added metron for 3 days. His 'swelling' went down but he would not eat. After 5 days, I'm thinking that he starved. He's a goner! If I had noticed it earlier, I may of saved him but he was not eating for at least 2 weeks if not 3!

The rest of the tank where he came from is now at 94F and will be for 10 days! I did notice 2 days ago that a discus was pooing long white transparent feces however there were no round white sections like on the previous discus. I have not noticed it any more so hopefully the heat is killing it. ;)

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Barb,

kewl, ya I was trying to avoid telling you how he was until you got the card ;)

And doh, I thought u raise and breed sheep heheh...if I knew, there was another cute card with a kitten on it...oh well, i'll save it for another occassion ;)

As for your worm eggs question, hehe he was in a separate container and that water did not mixed with the tank so I think I'm safe. Also its too late since I have already placed him back into the tank.

So now I can update on his status (hehe which I did on another post a few days ago ;D).

So folks, this sicked Discus actually made it!!! woo whooo...he came out stronger than ever thanks to Barb's Tramisol. I didn't have to go to the extreme of injecting him, thanks god. He is too strong, I'm afraid. He was the bully of the tank when I took him out to treat him and when placed back into the tank, he became even more aggressive. He was so aggressive that he stressed one of me Discus to death, yes literally to death.

Actually he stressed one of the Discus to the point of infection and then death. I did separated the stressed Discus to a container and started Fluke tab and salt treatment on him for 2 days, since he was breathing rather rapidly. On the third day (ie today), I found him dead. Didn't think he would die but guess what ever was illing him was quite strong. He was so healthy a few days ago and then just like that he die.

The only thing I can come up with was perhaps water condition is not correct aside from that, I didn't see any physical sign of any disease except for the rapid breathing.

Perhaps someone can comment on this.


I wish you luck with your fish Ronrca. Perhaps try to find some Tramisol or Lavimsol. It seems to worked for me wonderfully.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Chi

Aha.. I wondered why you weren't answering my emails.
The card is delightful, I like those little pigs, all animals actually. Thank you, you really did make a crappy day good.
That was very kind of you.

Barb

[EthanCote.com]

It was just a little sumthing to say thanks for your generosity Barb. :antlers:

I'm super glad it helps to lighten your day :lickin: :lickin: :lickin:


Cheers,

Chi.

[ronrca]

Where did you find Tramisol or Lavimsol btw?

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Ronrca,

I think it is a prescription drug given by your local vet. Perhaps call them up and see if they can give you a prescription for it.

One thing to try and get him to eat is try to feed a bit of each and every kind of foods you have. Apparently when mine was sicked I found out that he has a favourite food after all. I tried feeding frozen food but never saw him ate, then one day, I try the tetra bits and voila, he ate. One or two pellets but at least he ate.

Also add some plants in there. I also found the decaying part of the plants are very soft and my sicked Fish would occassional chew on it. So that is another food source.

HTH.


Cheers,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Ronca, how are you? I got my Tramisol from a vet who takes care of livestock. My dog vet wouldn't get it for me. I'm not sure how many gallons you are treating, but if you are treating a 10 g QT I could send you some. You're in Canada so there's no customs to get through.
Let me know.

Barb :)

[EthanCote.com]

Barb does it again.

Xmas is coming early for someone ;)

Yer just an angle. :angel:


Cheers,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Ronca, send me your address via email.

Barb