Tips on growing plants and avoiding algae [Archive]

ChloroPhil

11-26-2002, 02:21 PM

I’m sure Wahter can shed more light on the subject, but here’s what I’ve come up with from conversations with experts and my own research. Algae are the result of an imbalance in the Nutrient-Light-CO2 cycle. Too much or too little of one or more of these will encourage the Green Monster to take residence in your prized garden. Being a lower plant species alga can get along on levels that the higher plants we’re trying to grow aren’t able to. Keep this in mind, it’s very important.

Let’s start with light and CO2. We all know that plants need sufficient light and CO2 to carry out photosynthesis. CO2 levels are pretty standard across the spectrum of plant species. The target range for CO2 is 18-24ppm which can be determined by comparing pH to KH levels. Check out www.thekrib.com or www.sfbaaps.com for references.

Most of the common “Discus friendly” plants can do well in moderate lighting. Just about all Echinodorus (Sword) and Cryptocoryne species in general do well with light as low as 2.0-2.5 watts/gallon [US] for a moderately high tank (18-24in.). Light intensity is the key here. The goal is to provide enough intensity to allow sufficient light to reach the lower leaves of tall plants and those species growing close to the substrate. With a tank higher than 24” lighting should be increased enough to compensate for the additional distance it has to travel. A good target goal for lighting would be 2.5-3.0w/g over the areas you’re trying to grow plants.

When light and CO2 are balanced and available in sufficient amounts for your plants they will be able to use stored nutrients to respire (create energy) and grow/repair tissue. When these stores are used up your plants will look elsewhere for what they need which brings us to the third part of the cycle, nutrients. While light and CO2 are relatively easy to get in balance and maintain; finding the appropriate amount of nutrients to supplement can be the challenge. More on that next.

ChloroPhil

11-26-2002, 02:22 PM

Each aquarium is a unique system that has equally unique nutritional requirements. A great primer on dosing levels was written by Tom Barr and can be found at www.sfbaaps.com. Plants require certain levels of nutrients to be able to function well just like they need proper lighting and CO2. An overabundance or lack of any one nutrient will open the door for algae.

Nutrients are grouped into two categories, Macro and Micronutrients. Macronutrients are just what you think they are, something plants need in large doses. These are: [N]itrogen (added as NO3), Potassium (K), and [P]hosphorus (added as phosphate, PO4) . Nitrogen and Phosphate are both known contributors to algae problems. Potassium hasn’t been found to cause algae itself rather; it is needed by plants to use the other nutrients effectively. Insufficient or excess levels of N and P and/or insufficient levels of K will give algae the one up needed to out compete the higher plants in a system. Check out Chuck Gadd’s website for a very useful dosing calculator.

Nitrogen is constantly being added to the aquarium in the form of Ammonia or Ammonium, NH3 or NH4, that substance all fish keepers love to hate. Luckily plants are able to use ammonia and ammonium very easily. In fact, a well-balanced and healthy system will use ammonia/ammonium the second it becomes available. With the generally low bioloads found in most discus tanks the amount of nitrogen made available this way are too low making supplementation necessary. The target level for NO3 is 5-10ppm.

***Keeping in mind that the best source of supplemental nitrogen is nitrate (NO3) we need to find a good source of NO3. This is easy to find as the gardening section of your local hardware store. Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is the main ingredient in Stump Remover, just be sure to get a brand that is 100% KNO3. For those in the US Grant’s Stump Remover is available at most Lowe’s and Home Depot stores. A few dollars will get you enough for close to a year. I use ¾ teaspoon twice a week to achieve and maintain a level of 7.5ppm in a 90g aquarium.

ChloroPhil

11-26-2002, 02:22 PM

Potassium (K) is the next element on our list and is needed in the highest amounts of any nutrient. As mentioned above K is essential to the assimilation of other nutrients and the basic processes of a plant’s life. A deficiency in K will result in unused NO3 and PO4; the main cause of algae. Levels of 15-20ppm are what we need to achieve. I add 3/4tsp once after every water change (2x weekly) to maintain levels where they need to be.

Potassium can be found as a part of Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) and can usually be found through a local agricultural or hydroponics supply company. Online vendors such as www.ecogrow.com or www.litemanu.com (US) and www.hydroponics.com (Canada) all sell this and other supplements as a dry chemical. Avoid purchasing liquid forms of Macronutrients whenever possible as it’s much easier to control levels using dry crystals or powders.

The last Macronutrient, Phosphorus, found in the form of Phosphate (PO4), is another of our love-to-hate substances. Luckily the types and amounts of food commonly fed to Discus are high in phosphate and should provide the necessary 1-2ppm. If supplementation is needed PO4 can be added by dosing with Monopotassium Phosphate (KH2PO4). This too is available through hydroponics or agricultural supply companies. A little of this goes a long way so an order of 5lbs is basically a lifetime supply. Another common source of PO4 is over the counter enemas. Just be sure there are no harmful chemicals when purchasing one of these.

Phosphate is often regarded at the cause of algae. In most low to moderately lit (1.5-2.0w/g) aquariums and/or those with slow growing plants this is often the case; as the Sears/Conlin study determined. In this case it is important to provide sufficient levels of light, CO2, NO3 and K, to allow the plants to use all PO4 as it becomes available. Doing so will make PO4 the limiting factor, helping your plants out compete algae for nutrients. It is worth mentioning that in high light/fast growing systems NO3 often a better limiting factor.

Just as plants need a supply of Macronutrients they also need a steady supply of Micronutrients also known as Trace Elements. These are common elements such as calcium, magnesium, and iron that all plants need, but in very low quantities. Of all the micronutrients only Iron (Fe) has been known to contribute to algae and then only if overdosed.

While there are dry trace element mixes available companies such as SeaChem and Tropica make high quality liquid additives. Unless one has a very large aquarium and/or one that has a high percentage of fast growing plants a liquid supplement is the easiest method. Dry mixes are available through most hydroponics suppliers.

EthanCote.com

11-26-2002, 02:41 PM

Wow Phils, great post. Thanx.

Now if only I can get you to come on over my place and set everything up for my plants, then all will be golden. ;D

But at least your posts will provide a basis steps for me to start. The problem is not to plant a tank, the problem is to keep the plants alive and healthy ;) always had that problem. But am getting better.

Cheers,

Chi.

ChloroPhil

11-26-2002, 02:47 PM

Summary of Commonly Recommended Nutrient Levels~

Light: 2.0-3.0 w/g
CO2: 18-24ppm/20-30ppm (low/moderate-high light)
NO3: 5-10ppm
PO4: 1-1.2ppm
K: 15-20ppm
Fe: .1ppm (used as a rough measurement for traces)

Keep in mind that these are final target levels. Fishload and feeding routines will contribute to nutrients. Test your water often to ensure proper levels

I hope this helps!

vosevichs

11-26-2002, 09:02 PM

Thanks very much for the info. I was going to post a question about algae. It's growing alot better than my planks :'( I'm going to test my levels right now.

Ralph

11-26-2002, 10:36 PM

Do I give my discus the enemas? I have trouble getting them to hold still just to measure them.

Great posts, Phil! Your info fits in with some great advice I got one time to fight algae: Make sure your plants are growing. In other words, if you are giving your plants everything they need to grow (and not any more than that), then your algae won't have the nutrients to grow.

A couple of comments:
My tank proves your ideas on excessive lighting. Half my tank gets direct, though filtered, sunlight. The sunlight area gets algae and the other side doesn't. That is of course with the same water and same nutrients. The only difference is the extra light on the one side.

The nitrogen is a sticky subject with discus tanks due to the toxic nature to the fish of nitrates at higher levels. One of the principle reasons for WCs is removal of nitrates, so the idea of adding them will be a tough sell here. Generally though a target of 10 ppm of nitrates is accepted as a maximum so your levels of 7.5 ppm still fits inside that range. To hit that, do you take tests before and after adding the nitrogen?
I haven't added liquid fertilizer to my tank yet. My plants are growing though and I typically have 0 nitrates. I have a higher fish load than most here which would account for the healthy plants without adding nitrogen.

I am getting a phosphate test kit soon! And probably a potassium test too. Are they readily available?

I compared a trace element additive for plants to a trace element additive for discus and they were very close, so I just go with it.

I think I am going to make this thread a library type thread that will be permanently near the top (I have to talk to my co-moderators first though).

PS Some algae I really like.

ChloroPhil

11-27-2002, 11:04 AM

Ralph,

Even with a plant tank water changes are necessary :( although I got away with a lot in a crypt only tank. In my low light tanks I do 50% 1x/week. My high light tank (3.4w/g) is struggling with a Green Water epidemic so I do 50% changes 2x/week.

When I first started plants and was told I needed add NO3 to my tanks I was floored. When I realized that I had to add enough to keep the levels at a half to a third of what they were in a fish only tank I felt a lot more comfortable.

To be honest I haven't found a NO3 test that's sensitive enough to read 5-10ppm so I just add enough to achieve a pre-determined level. The great thing about KNO3 is that the ppm closely matches the teaspoon. .5tsp=5ppm etc.

I know Sera makes good PO4 and Fe test kits and I don't think a K test is necessary. Your plants make good indicators of K, Fe, and Trace levels.

I just realized that some of my dosing levels work for a very high light tank, but won't be appropriate for most tanks here. If you're going to post this in an archive let me change them. <fixed>

PS: I REALLY like Cladophora algae, it's the green velvety stuff that forms most often on wood, its gorgeous! I dont' mind algae on wood, rocks, and glass. As long as it stays away from my water column and plants I'm happy. :)

EthanCote.com

11-27-2002, 02:14 PM

Hey Phil,

I think I have some of that algae growing on my driftwood now. My Discus loves pecking at it ;D

The problem is, I also have some slimey green algae on the same driftwood and anything touching it likes plants or tank glass, will also get covered in it very quickly. That things is spreading like while fire. Will a bushy nose pleco take care of that algae?

Thanx.

Cheers,

Chi.

ChloroPhil

11-30-2002, 11:28 AM

Try SAE's (Siamese Algae Eaters), Crossocheilus siamensis for that algae if you have small leaved and/or delicate plants. A tank full of swords and anubias type a small bushynose will be great.

joelfish

12-06-2002, 12:39 PM

Wow, great stuff.

I want to emphsize the point about lack of nutrients causing algae. I see this so much. People are afraid to add nutrients because they have algae. They think that adding more nutrients will make the algae worse. It can be exactly th opposite. A nutrient poor tank is an opportunity for algae.

I used to be really afraid of adding nitrates. This is what we're trying to get rid of - right? My tank does much better now that I add some nitrates.

My final point, you can never starve algae of nutrients - it can get along on way less nutrients than your plants!

Joel Fish

joelfish

12-06-2002, 12:42 PM

Here's the result, now I just have to add discus!

Ralph

12-06-2002, 12:54 PM

Those are some healthy looking plants. Is that Java Moss growing on the wood?
How do you know how much nitrogen (nitrates) to add? What fertilizer do you use?

ronrca

12-06-2002, 12:56 PM

Thanks Joel! Tell us more about the ferts and nitrates! I need help with my tank though! It does have algae and I am one of those that does not add much ferts! Plants are doing good but algae..........!

I'll have to try it! Whats the worst that can help? More Algae? HEHe!

ChloroPhil

12-06-2002, 01:44 PM

Lovely tank Joel! Your Rotala could use a good trimming though, cut it in half and plant the tops in with the bases to get a nice thick bunch. Yes, while algae can get along on much smaller doses of nutrients healthy higher plants will outcompete algae for nutrients as they need much more and will use up available nutrients very quickly.

Ralph,
Yeah, that's Java Fern and Java Moss on the wood...isn't it pretty? I love that stuff.

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm
There's a good dosage calculator. All the ferts are talked about in my sticky post, you need to use all of them. :)

ronrca

12-06-2002, 01:58 PM

The only problem is finding a good source of potassium nitrate! Home Depot did have it at one time but they pulled it off the shelves. I dont think stump remove is sold in Canada anymore! :(

Ok Canadian folks! Found some KNO3!

http://www.hydroponics.com/info/aquatics/pmdd.htm

Any more sources?

ChloroPhil

12-06-2002, 02:24 PM

Try Homegrown Hydroponics www.hydroponics.com. Ask for the PMDD 6 Pack, it's got everything you need to suppliment your plants.

ronrca

12-06-2002, 02:35 PM

ChloroPhil

12-06-2002, 04:57 PM

No, you can get the ingredients separately, although I'd highly recommend getting the Potassium Sulphate and Traces too as your plants need both of these to uptake Nitrate efficiently. Magnesium Sulfate is commonly sold as Epsom Salts are your local pharmacy and you don't need Calcium Nitrate or Ammonium Nitrate (The last could potentially ruin your plants and kill your fish).

nokoto

11-29-2003, 05:50 PM

Hi guy's

Yep I'm still a new be, however I have once had a nice tank...

Which I'll post a photo so you can see...

All was going really well, then I changed over to RO water, and the tank went down hill, there was not much a I could do since I had discus...

But I have a plant not many of you may have seen which I got growing very slow, I've not seen it for sale anywhere, and no it's not java most either, very close though...

I have that in a tank on it's own I believe that if you can pre plant you tank well 4+ months before you add your fish then you have a fighting start...

That's what I have found,

Wayne

nokoto

11-29-2003, 05:52 PM

Picture did not post for some reason...

nokoto

11-29-2003, 06:38 PM

Here's that moss I was on about

Any one know what it is as I've not seen it for sale anywhere...

May be I should sell cuttings lol...

What you think guys..

Wayne

giroux68

11-30-2003, 05:46 PM

I don't know what it is, but it looks really nice. I'll take some of those cuttings. ;D

nokoto

11-30-2003, 06:25 PM

It's very slow growing even with CO2

I hope to sell the cut's to help sponsor the hobby, ie, pay for the tank I put it in etc...

But it's taken me over a year to grow so...

Only expert hobbists I think...

It's like java moss but it's not same kind of size...

But as you say looks nice in any tank

Wayne

ChloroPhil

12-01-2003, 03:44 PM

It looks like Fontinalis antipyretica, aka Willow Moss. It's growth habit is a little too horizontal for how I've seen Java Moss grow.

It could also be what's called Christmas moss. I can't find a specific name it, sorry. I'm inclined to say it's Fontinalis though, Christmas moss is much less common.

rdeis

03-18-2004, 05:51 PM

Your plants make good indicators of K, Fe, and Trace levels.

Can you elaborate? Is there a specific indicator to look for that can tell me about K?

I read that leaved going from green to yellow to transparent is an indicator of low trace elements, do you concur?

PS: I REALLY like Cladophora algae, it's the green velvety stuff that forms most often on wood, its gorgeous! I dont' mind algae on wood, rocks, and glass. As long as it stays away from my water column and plants I'm happy. :)

I haven't seen any of this- do you think your particular water conditions might favor it over other species? If so, what are they-- I'd prefer that type too. (-:

lhforbes12

04-25-2006, 11:23 PM

[QUOTE=Biotypical]Ralph,

Even with a plant tank water changes are necessary :( although I got away with a lot in a crypt only tank. In my low light tanks I do 50% 1x/week. My high light tank (3.4w/g) is struggling with a Green Water epidemic so I do 50% changes 2x/week.

Phil,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your wc's are probably what are causing your green water problems. Water, especially from the tap, often has hgh levels of CO2, which sounds good at first, but unfortunately algae is better able to use changing CO2 levels faster than "higher" plants. Unless you are actively aerating your wc water this will continue. Fortunately there is an easy solution. After a wc run either a UV or diatom filter on your tank for a day. What this does is remove the algae spores (well in the case of a UV filter it kills them). Since you brought up Tom Barr, you are familiar with his writings. He is where I learned this and it works like a charm. Not only do I never have green water, I no longer get any algae and used to get them all!
Also your posts are very informative and substantually correct. I think though that most of the "pros" now no longer believe excess N or P to be the cause of algae, flucuating CO2 levels are. Of course, as has been already said, Discus are sensitive to these "pollutants" so we want to keep them low anyway.
All in all I believe you have given us an excellant view of what it takes to grow plants with Discus.
Thank you,
Larry

lhforbes12

04-25-2006, 11:27 PM

[QUOTE=rdeis]Can you elaborate? Is there a specific indicator to look for that can tell me about K?

I read that leaved going from green to yellow to transparent is an indicator of low trace elements, do you concur?

You probably need K. If there are pin holes on the older leaves or young leaves are growing a bit twisted then it definately is too low potassium.

hth,
Larry

lhforbes12

04-25-2006, 11:52 PM

Is it neccessary to buy the 6 pack? Some nutrients one does not need! Or?

I believe the 6 packs contains Calcium Nitrate, Potassium Sulphate, Potassium Nitrate, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulphate, Trace, Ammonium Nitrate!

I would like to concentrate on the nitrates as my tank has 0 nitrates!! Phosphates come and go with water changes!

Try here
http://www.gregwatson.com/
You'll be able to get whatever fertilizers you need there
Also be very careful about your NO3 (nitrate) dosing. Very often test kits, especially when even a little old, will show no NO3 when there are actually high levels. A better indicator is your plant growth.

marilyn1998

06-09-2006, 11:35 AM

I am running 130watts over my 90 gallon. (my other light 56 watts, is strobing. dunno why?)

I just added some plants from Larry, so today I have in pots with gravel and root tabs: 2 red temples, ludwigia peruenis, water sprite, 2 amazon swords, a melon sword, ludwigia replens, ozelot sword, moneywort, crypt wendtii, and 2 anubias nana on my driftwoods.

I have an inch of pebble size gravel as the substrate.
My fish stock are in my signature.

I WC 3x wk 35%-40%. For the last two weeks I have been adding 1 cap prime, 1 cap Excel, 1 cap flourish, and 1 cap nitrogen.

THese last two days (before adding the sprite, amazons, moneywort and melon sword) I was getting green water and an egg size spot of green algae on my top glass. I did a 50% WC the first day with no ferts. The second day I did 95% Wc again no ferts. Then I added those extra plants.

So, am I right in assuming it was the excel or nitrogen that caused this? or was it the lesser lighting? (do I need a new bulb after 3 months?)

PH 7.8 temp 85 ammonia 0 nitrIte 0 nitrAte 0 (tho now I doubt the test is right) Phosphorus 1.0 KH 9 GH 6

Please help?

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 12:27 PM

Marilyn,
See my post earlier. Your green water is most likely caused by your wc's. The easiest way I know to prevent green water (I know you want to keep to your wc schedule) is by using either a UV or diatom filter. It's a PITA I know, but either of those filters will eliminate green water. As a matter of fact I use a diatom filter and on the tank where your plants came from. The wc schedule was 50% once a week, following every wc I ran a diatom filter for a whole day afterwards and that tank had no algae of any kind in it, actually none of my planted tanks have algae and haven't for at least 2 months (I still have 2 planted tanks). The reason for no algae is I always run the diatom for an entire 24 hours after a wc now, this has worked like a miracle for me. Your fertilizers are NOT causing the green water IMO, fluccuating CO2 is.

Larry

Alight

06-09-2006, 01:01 PM

WC 3x wk 35%-40%. For the last two weeks I have been adding 1 cap prime, 1 cap Excel, 1 cap flourish, and 1 cap nitrogen.

THese last two days (before adding the sprite, amazons, moneywort and melon sword) I was getting green water and an egg size spot of green algae on my top glass. I did a 50% WC the first day with no ferts. The second day I did 95% Wc again no ferts. Then I added those extra plants.

So, am I right in assuming it was the excel or nitrogen that caused this? or was it the lesser lighting? (do I need a new bulb after 3 months?)

PH 7.8 temp 85 ammonia 0 nitrIte 0 nitrAte 0 (tho now I doubt the test is right) Phosphorus 1.0 KH 9 GH 6

Please help?

1) bulbs don't go bad in three months; your strobing is either caused by a bad contact with your bulb (something wrong with your end cap, or a bad contact in the bulb itself, or a bad ballast. To check it, but your good bulb in the same fixture. If it also strobes, then it's either the end cap or the ballast. If it quits strobing, replace the bulb--it's bad. If it keeps strobing, first check to see if you have an old fashioned magnetic ballast. If you do, there will be a small metal can starter somewhere on your unit. This starter can be replaced, and may be causing your strobing. If there is no starter, then it could be an electronic ballast, and it could be bad. No easy way to check this without a voltmeter, so you may have to take it to somewhere that can check and fix it if you're not handy with a voltmeter.

2) are you adding all those ferts every day? Every week? With each water change?

You don't seem to be adding phophates, yet your PO4 levels are 1? and you are adding nitrates, but your nitrate levels are 0? Seems unlikely, unless your tap water has a fair amount of PO4 in it. Test it to see. Are your nitrates always 0, or only after a water change?

To test your test kit, determine how much that 1 cap of nitrogen is supposed to add to your tank (should be some information on the bottle). Add this much to, say, a bucket of water (3 gallons or so). Multiply by the number of times your tank is greater than your bucket (for example, if your tank is 30 gallons, mutiply by 10). So if that capful was supposed to add 10 ppm nitrates, then you would have 100 ppm nitrates in your bucket. Use your kit to measure the nitrates in the bucket. You should read the amount you calculate would be in the bucket. You can also use this method to calibrate your test kit. Say you want to target 10 ppm nitrates in your tank. Mix a bucket of water to have 10 ppm nitrates in it from your fertilizer stock. Use your test kit to measure the bucket water. As long as you have some color change--you can use this tube (cap it and keep it--should be OK for at least 2 weeks) and compare a tube of water tested with your test kit from your tank with the color of the tube tested from the bucket. When they are the same color, you have 10 ppm. If more color, more than 10, if less, less than 10 ppm. Same goes for calibrating your PO4 test kit.

As to the green water, I guessing you have just too much fertilizer for the number of plants and the amount of light you have in your tank--balance is everything! Yes, diatom filters will take it out, but balance will prevent it.

Of course, who am I to speak, with my hair and thread algae debacle, still not quite solved! LOL

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 02:42 PM

Al,
I know exactly what you are talking about regarding calibrating test kits... and you still managed to lose me. ;-)

Here is a picture taken minutes ago. I have not wiped the glass in over 2 months.

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 02:44 PM

Here's 1 of the 125. It is just over 2 months old and has never had it's glass cleaned. Note the tubes from the diatom filter, in this case a Vortex XL.

marilyn1998

06-09-2006, 02:56 PM

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 03:01 PM

The point of the 2 pictures above is that by using my method (actually it's Tom Barr's method) you can have an algae free tank without checking NO3, CO2, Fe, or any other additive. I no longer test these tanks for anything, I "test" by looking at how my plants are doing. I use an adjusted EI method for dosing, I dose 6 days a week, no dosing on wc day. I use Greg Watson's pre-mix http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp with 2 parts KNO3 instead of 1 part, and I dose PO4 using Fleet Enema when I remember to. A UV or diatom filter used the way I have described is truly no less than a miracle IMHO. btw the smaller tank is about 2 wpg and the larger one is at about 3 wpg, CF 6700K on both tanks. Both tanks use pressurized CO2 with the smaller one at about 30 ppm CO2 and the larger at about 15 ppm CO2. Once you understand that the algae is getting the upper hand because of fluccuating CO2 levels, which it is able to use faster than "higher" plants, from CO2 in your water supply you will be algae free too.

marilyn1998

06-09-2006, 03:06 PM

So, if I order KNO3 from Greg, and use the fleet, will that fix the fluctuating CO2?

or

Do i need to get CO2 and if so, what exactly would I need? I have looked at those systems and they confuse me. solenoids, and tanks, and regulators. I dont know them at all.

I am looking into the diatom filter now.

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 03:25 PM

Ok, I did another 90% WC today. I also cleaned my AC110.
When adding ferts, I was doing it every other day with the WC.

I did the tap water test. Used 3 gallons water to 1 cap(2.5 ML) of the Seachem nitrogen. The test STILL came back 0.
Is there a GOOD test kit other than AP I can get?

My test were always done just before the WC. I added the extra 56W today. The bulb appeared to be loose. :p

Larry, I use two HOBS, AC110 and Penguin 350B. Can I use a diatom filter? I bought a turbo twist Uv a few months ago and returned it as I couldnt attach to two HOBS.

I dont inject CO2 and dont want to. So if low CO2 is a problem, how do I fix that?
Will the added plants help me now? And the extra light?

I am so confused! I need to learn to balance, but need to know twhat that means. I have read Tomn Barr and Rex Rigg, but I use the Seachem products so I cant do the math on the scientific elements.

Sorry to be a PITA.

Larry, come over and make my tank look like yours??? I will cook for you and your wife!

Marilyn, First off asking me questions is never being a PITA.
AP test kits will work fine. BUT they only are good for about 6 months. After that you will get false negatives. Just get a new kit or do what I do, go by the growth of your plants and how your fish react (discus especially react badly to too high NO3 (NitrAte) they will start breathing rapidly at too high a level).
Adding ferts every other day should be fine, I would add the Excel in smaller doses every day though. Also I would add ferts on NOT wc days (this is somewhat a personal preference, my water does have high CO2 levels, and some PO4 and NO3 (not much) though so this works best for me).
Using those HOBs (especially the Penguin, which is a bio-wheel) it is good that you aren't using CO2, since you would lose most of it anyway.
Excel is a carbon source which is used instead of pressurized CO2, and you are already using it.
Adding the plants should help you. They will be using up more nutrients and leaving less for algae. The easiest way, other than the one I use, to keep algae at bay is to load your tank with plants. This is what the plant "pros" do, especially in new tanks. You pack as many fast growing plants in as you can and you have no cycling or algae problems (plants can use NH3 (Amonmia) as it leaves a fish's gills) and algae can't get a hold because the plants leave no nutrients for it.
Somehow I missed how much light you have. I would not go over 2 wpg in your tank though. No CO2 injection and high light is just asking for algae IMO, and as you can see, most plants grow just fine at 2 wpg.
I do understand your confusion. You get so much differing advice about how to raise aquatic plants, I think that's mainly because what works for some doesn't work for others. I promise anyone reading this though, if you follow the diatom or UV advice and are rigorous in applying it, you will not have any algae. It's really just that simple.

marilyn1998

06-09-2006, 03:33 PM

THanks Larry. So, I am going to watch my plants, use lesser amounts and use Flourish and Excel every other day, off WC days. I have 2 watts per gallon on now. I was down to 1.5 all last week. this may have helped. I lost a few plants by trying to wc while tired. so, i lowered the plants, started the nitrogen and lowered my llight. That will do it!

Looking at distoms on Big Al's I found 3. one does 150gph, one does 400gph and then there is an AP one that doesnt have the tubes to suck on, auto prime and does 300 gph. My tank is a 90. What should I look for in a diatom?

Thanks so much.

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 03:39 PM

Marilyn,
I forgot to answer your question about the diatom filter. Diatom filters are self contained, that is they have everything you need for them to run right out of the box. I use a Vortex DLL, which I do NOT recommend (it is just a DL with worthless accesories, like a "recharge" valve that should be called a "leaky piece of junk valve" IMHO) and a Vortex XL. The XL or DL models work very well. If you decide to buy one (Big Al's has them on sale) you WILL be swearing at me when you first try using it. It takes a bit of "getting used to" before you will be comfortable with using it. I would give instructions but I already know that if you ask 10 Vortex users for their tips on how to get it working properly you will definately get 10 very different answers. btw if you do decide to buy one make sure you buy diatom powder too.

lhforbes12

06-09-2006, 03:47 PM

marilyn1998

06-09-2006, 03:54 PM

Sounds good. I will be asking more about that filter as I use it I am sure!!! Thanks again!

susantroy1

09-19-2007, 09:22 PM

Larry,

Very good post:) Thanks for the pics... proof is in the photos. I'm also one inclined to go with the diatom filter. One question though, you mentioned that you only use it after WC's... so I take it is only a temp fliteration process... I do my WCs every three days so I would run it every 3 days? (after each WC) Does this filter remove any Macro/micros from the water? I also dose EI as well...Thanks for the expert advise

Troy

judy

11-26-2007, 09:36 PM

With your low to moderate light levels and no C02 in the tank, you're just adding fertilizer the plants are unable to use-- that's why the algae. Try *not* adding any fertilizer for a week or two.
Fertilizer is only useful if the plants have enough light and C02 to make use of it.
You have a 90 gallon tank; it may be that you do really need to consider adding a C02 system. I have a 78, and I use three DIY C02 pop bottles, refreshing one of them each week in rotation. It's barely enough, so I supplement with Flourish Excel carbon, and the two have made a huge difference. I still get that thin green film of algae on the tank walls, but that's it. No green water, no algae all over plants.

daniel19831123

12-28-2007, 05:47 PM

It seemed like there is a lot of different opinion from what I've read so far. And surprisingly it seemed to be location based. Most american website said that phosphate does cause algae problems and the UK website said that it doesn't. Many of the UK website that I've seen had advocate that theory even with reports and study. Apparently one of Tom Barr reported the same results.

Regarding the green algae on the wall, you need to first find out if it's GDA or GSA. GDA is due to low phosphate level and GSA is common found in tank with intense amount of lighting in tank that is lightly planted. A rubbermouth pleco should get rid of it but just have to be aware that they can be disasterous in a planted tank. Only put them in your plants are mainly anubias, java, bolbitis i.e. tough plants.

EI method is the best method to used for high tech planted tank but in your case, without CO2 and that amount of light, dosing excessive nutrient is not going to help as the limiting factor here is the CO2. I personally prefer a hybrid method using natural method with slight CO2 addition. With that I can afford to not change my water for months and yet the plant and fish thrive on it. If you would like to know more about the natural tank setup, Diana Walstad book is the best to go for.

diamonddiscus08

02-23-2008, 06:20 PM

Great information here however I have a couple of questions? Now regarding lighting I have a power compact ultra orbit 4x130w but I am only using two of the bulbs currently along with a wet/dry filtration in a 55g. It's set on a timer of about 8hr cycle and I am using flourish seachem. I have roughly 15 corys, a dwarf pleco, 20 jumbo neons a couple red-clawed crabs, 4 tetras and two discus. While performing 30% w/cs every 3-4 days. A pH of 6.8 and a temperature of 82F. I have about 6 new plants I recently purchased. I was wondering what type of plant would be the best or anyone may recommoned for this type of environment. In addition, I do not have a CO2 system isn't having plenty of fish able to help produce this and or what would anyone recommend for a cheap easy and efficient solution for obtaining enough CO2?

judy

02-23-2008, 07:10 PM

you need about ten to 12 hours of light for plants. flourish seachem has phosphates, I don't use it for that reason because you'll build up plenty of phosphate without it and that will mean algae. You can rig a DIY CO2 system using pop bottles with sugar,warm water, and yeast, airline, and air bubble ladders you can buy. I have three on a 78 gallon tank and they work just fine. you just have to change the yeast mixture every couple weeks, staggering which bottle you change so you have a steady CO2 level.
you can also use Flourish Excel as a carbon supplement that helps with CO2 levels.
82 is a little cool if they're young discus.
and two discus is not enough. six is the minimum recommended in a tank.
there are lots of plants that do well in low to medium light... you could go browse the tropica website to see some you might like.
most popular are amazon swords, anubia, cryptocorynes, watersprite, vallisneria, pennywort, hornwort, lots of different types of stem plants.

Dissident

02-26-2008, 09:28 AM

judy

02-26-2008, 10:24 AM

Dissent is right-- that's high wattage and DIY CO2 will not cut it. You'll have a tank full of algae.

diamonddiscus08

02-26-2008, 04:54 PM

I am bit confused on what to and who to listen too. I went to my local discus breeder who also does planted tanks take in consideration he has been doing planted tanks for about 9 years. He had told me that I should use around 6 hrs of lighting that with my light setup that would be perfect. Along with mentioning that the flourish seachem would be more than ample along with using flourish tabs for the more root driven plants like the amazon swords. In addition he had told me not to worry about doing CO2 due the amount of fish in my tank which totals around 40. So I really am not sure what to do. Thanks for all the adivce!

Dissident

02-26-2008, 06:09 PM

I dont want to disparage the advice you got from your local breeder but 9yrs of planted tank experience doesn't mean it is being done right. I am going off my 6yrs of high-tech planted tank experience and the collective knowledge of the 3 planted tank forums I visit on a regular basis tells me that:
4.7w/gal + trace elements (unless you mean Flourish EXCEL in your previous post) + all the nitrates produced by 40 fish = algae (and tons of it depending on feeding routine)
Anyone in the hobby for any amount of the time should be able to tell you that no amount of fish in a tank will be sufficient to supplement a high-light tank with CO2.

If you want a 3rd opinion I would recommend stopping over at any of the forums like plantedtank.net and see what they think (APC and Tom Barr's site is nice too).

diamonddiscus08

02-26-2008, 08:22 PM

Thanks a ton for your input. Now based upon what you're telling me I need to get a CO2 canister or tank of some sort? Once again I am running two sets of 130w bulbs on a 6 hr cycle along with atinics before and after the 6 hr daylight cycle to mimic dusk and dawn. I have around 12-14 plants mainly broad leaves a few amazon swords and a few crypts. I am using seachem flourish the comprehensive nutrients not excel. Along with flourish tabs for the root based amazon swords and crypts. W/C 30% every 3 days using 85% RO and 15% tap.

BSW

02-26-2008, 09:17 PM

If you are using the "Extreme" Bulbs at 130 W ea. - 48" ea.
with 2 bulbs running you have 4.72 W per gallon
If you run 4 bulbs you have 9.45 W per gallon
Is that what you have ?
If so, there is no way around pressurised Co2, or you will have an algae farm really quick !!!

Do you have a 4 bulb fixture or a 2 bulb fixture ?
2 - 130W lights ? 260 W total
4 - 130W lights ? 520 W total
Maybe I'm missing something here, or your house could look like an airport runway ?

If you have 4, why so much light ?? Aren't you just growing Amazon Swords, Crypts and stuff ?
B

diamonddiscus08

02-27-2008, 03:39 AM

diamonddiscus08

02-27-2008, 03:42 AM

Yes I realize excessive lighting however I am looking into getting a 90g

BSW

02-27-2008, 05:33 AM

Hi Diamonddiscus -
Even on a 90 gal, you'd be looking at 5.7WPG, which is way up there on the very high end of high light.
Lots of pressurized Co2 and Ferts !!!
B

Wahter

02-27-2008, 01:49 PM

I have a current usa orbit extreme 48" 2x130w dual daylight,
2x130w dual actinic, and 4 lunar lights. Running the 2x130 daylight 6hrs daily and the 2x130w actinics for one hour for dawn and dusk. So yes a total of 520W. Check this link http://www.justphish.com/product_info.php?products_id=1929&osCsid=37ea669615d1954211e61caf8bee1241
Thanks for all the help!

The actinic light isn't the most ideal for keeping plants - its more for keeping corals. You should try to replace those with daylight or trichromatic lights; most people llike those of a color temp of around 5000-6000-10,000K (kelvin). Personally, I like those around 6000K (a nice white color).

Don't be discouraged to try a pressurized CO2 tank - the initial cost might sound high, but if you get a 10 or 20 pound cylinder, you'll only need to have it refilled once every 1-2 years. It's definitely a 'set it and forget it' item - I do check the gauges about once a week, but that's about it (other than keeping the CO2 diffussor clean). Definitely beats mixing the sugar and yeast every 2 weeks.

I'd also recommend keeping the lights on for 10-12 hours.

You didn't mention what type of plants you bought. The best thing to fight algae are faster growing plants which will pull out the nutrients quickly and outcompete the algae. Ceratopteris (water sprite), several stem plants are also good (such as: Ludwigia repens, Ludwigia arcuata, Rotala indicia, various Hygrophila), Ceratophyllum (hornwort), and some Vallisneria (although vals typically like slightly harder water). Sword plants do suck out a lot of nutrients, but that only happens once they are established and thriving (typically swords are often grown emersed at the farms and they need to adjust to being submersed in an aquarium).

You find a lot of info on Tropica's website:
http://www.tropica.com/default.asp

Here's a list of deficiency symptoms in plants:
http://seachem.com/support/Flourish_constituents_&_deficency.pdf

Hope that helps,

Walter

Bryon

03-11-2008, 11:03 AM

Hello all,

My tanks have little to no algae, but they do have a diacom problem.
My tap water is unusually soft (056 ppm), with a ph of 7.0-7.2 ,and I have started adding RO Right to bring it up. Phosphate tests were too low to appreciably measure. BTW, the ph in my tanks drops substantially in the tank, but the fish do not seem to mind at all.
I recently purchased a RO unit and the water became so soft that it barely registered on my TDS meter. If I added the di unit to the mix the tds went to 002 ppm.
The diacom decreased substantially, but I had added some Hypostumus Plecos which I have been told will eat the stuff.
My ? is: Is the ro water changing this particular situation or are the Plecos doing the job, in your opinion? Also do I need ro water if I am not interested in breeding?
Moving fish back and forth to determine what's going on is not possible.
The tanks are a 180 bb with swords in pots and a 75 done the same way.
I do 15% changes after the last feeding every day and I groom the tank as opposed to just changing water.
As an aside, what is the best way/product to use as a fertilizer for my swords?
The jobs spikes and all other "tabs" seem to have a high phosphate content.
Thanks and all opinions are welcome.

Bryon

DocB

12-18-2009, 05:31 AM

How come I am not seeing the images several people are refering to in their posts? I have images enabled in my control panel. What am I missing?:confused:

Eddie

12-18-2009, 05:38 AM

How come I am not seeing the images several people are refering to in their posts? I have images enabled in my control panel. What am I missing?:confused:

Is it any posts prior to 2004? When the forum changed over to an updated version, the old pictures were lost.

Eddie

DocB

12-18-2009, 06:37 AM

That must be it.
Thanks Eddie;)

beantickler

12-27-2009, 11:33 PM

This has MORE info then ANY of the planted tank forums by far! I am now thinking you may have just solved my algae problem in my soon to be Discus tank. THANK YOU FOR THIS VALUABLE INFORMATION!

oeat07

01-22-2010, 01:10 PM

Hello there.. I have been into the live plants hobby for a long time now, and one thing is for sure... you will always have algae no matter what you do... the amount of algae is what you can control with this Article...
Planted tank with discus:... I have used a lot of no discus-friendly plants with great success... you just have to be on top nutrients levels in your tank and you will end up with a nice show planted discus tank.. I keep mine in my living room so I have no choice other than keep it crystal clean and good looking... here is a picture of my tank... hope you like it.
Oscar
Note: the red velvet rouge discus is spawning with the albino golden.. that is why it looks a bit dark...

mcishaque

07-20-2010, 03:57 PM

Marilyn,
I thought about getting the AP one for the same reason as you, it just seemed like it would be easier to use. However every last review I read about the AP one said that they don't work well. The Vortex is admittedly a PITA but it does work very well. Since you have a 90 I would go with the XL and it's added gph. The other thing about the XL is you will not need to recharge the diatom powder nearly as othen as the DL.

I was using a diatom filter (Vortex XL). Ran it once a day, for about 1.5 hours just before lights out. A week later, fishes start acting up, and start bumping into the glass and trying to jump out of the water.

Did a couple of emergency water changes and stopped using the diatom filter. No problems since.

My theory: the stagnant water in the diatom filter will spoil in a few days, and introduce all kinds of nasties into the water.

So to those who do use diatom filters:

- how often do you run yours ?
- how long do you run it ?
- do you flush out all the water and powder and store it till the next use, or do you leave the water in there - maybe for a whole day, or a week ?

I thought about using this method:
- use diatom filter for X hours
- store the filter with water/powder in it
- before next next use, fill a 5 gallon bucket w/ water
- put some bleach in the bucket of water
- prime the filter by letting it run/circulate the bleached bucket of water for 5 mins to kill germs/bacteria
- dump bleach water out of bucket
- refill bucket w/ fresh water
- take the outlet of the filter out of the bucket, and let it run for another 5 mins

Basic idea is to run some bleach water though the filter to kill germs. Then flush the filter w/ fresh water to get rid of bleach. Then use filter for real.

Anyone run into water spoiling issue in diatom filters ?

Thoughts on bleach/flush method ?

Alternate would be to rinse filter off before storage. Then re-prime filter w/ water and powder before next use. That's a lot of work and wasted power if you do this daily or every few days.

GrillMaster

07-26-2010, 10:45 PM

Why would you want to run a diatom filter in your tank to begin with? All it does is suck out the minerals and make your water sparkle. Thats what a tank filter is for. :)

khaled

11-11-2010, 07:52 AM

hi evrybody, I want to ask about using the ultraviolet sterilizer in planted discus tank to control algae, any one try it before? thanks a lot

RudeDogg1

11-21-2010, 04:32 PM

I thought I had posted this but it hasnt shown up so ill ask again. If I use the tropica ferts will I need to add any other ferts other than CO2? Its all abit confusing

sfdiscus

03-22-2011, 11:09 AM

Do the commercial algae killers solutions really work?

JRF

05-05-2011, 01:42 PM

thanks for the great info, I have a very tall tank (34") ..

caprismart

08-17-2011, 01:38 PM

Diatoms have always been a problem for me.....any suggestions?

Statik

09-23-2011, 10:15 AM

Flourish excell eliminates algae and makes the plants grow nicely. Works wonders for me. I always had trouble keeping my plants and battling constant bba. But since i put this stuff in my fish tank looks great!

ktm4us6

05-05-2012, 12:04 AM

New Led lighting is a big change also, which is much different in watts per gallon. I haven't seen any specs yet on w/g butt from my experience its a lot less, and depends on the lights. I switched to led just for the energy consumption and am very pleased with the results.

MOdiscus

05-16-2012, 04:16 PM

Do the commercial algae killers solutions really work?
Yeah, they do, but if you have algae in the first place, there's an underlying problem:
too many nutrients!
Best way to explain it is this: Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING you put in your tank doesn't come out unless you take it out.
all the food, all the chemicals, all the everything STAYS in the system. All the food you feed your fish gets digested, pooped out, and sits. and breaks down into nitrates and phosphates. And that's what algae eats. And, by the way, enough of it kills your fish. Algae feeds off the excess nutrients in your tank. So, if you have an algae problem, really, you have an excess nutrients problem, which means one of two things should be introduced:
Plants, or more water changes (or both). Plants use up those same nutrients, so if you can get a healthy plant population, with enough of the other stuff plants need (CO2, light), you will "starve" the algae. Alternatively,you can amp up your water changes and remove the excess that way. Either way you go, your fish will be happier once you make those changes. No offense to anyone who uses it, but I think of algae killer as a lazy way out(that ultimately harms your fish). Algae is just an indicator of an underlying problem- take care of the excess nutrients, and you take care of your algae.

DiscusBR

05-16-2012, 04:59 PM

Diatoms have always been a problem for me.....any suggestions?

I had a bad brown algae problem in my 80g tank and I have completely solved it by increasing water circulation with a powerhead, by using Flourish Excel and by installing a PhosBan 150 reactor to eliminate phosphates and silicates. My long saga is presented in another thread:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93230-Algae-nightmare-Please-help&highlight=discusbr

kalawai

06-03-2012, 08:19 PM

add floating plants...

DocB

04-11-2013, 12:36 AM

OK I am sure it is obvious but:
You refer to a picture, people comment on the picture. I can't see the picture!
I am logged in, my settings allow img
What am I missing?

rbarn

05-12-2013, 10:02 AM

OK I am sure it is obvious but:
You refer to a picture, people comment on the picture. I can't see the picture!
I am logged in, my settings allow img
What am I missing?

Thread is 10 years old. The offsite storage account where pictures were uploaded is probably closed.

Neoracer

05-12-2013, 05:24 PM

That is truly funny Ralph..

chanders

08-05-2013, 10:50 PM

Hey guys, my second post here so bear with me :) I keep reading that the correct ratio for lighting is 2-3w/g. I have a 90g tank with 60w. To me it looks like the tank is very bright.

From the calculation I should have 180w! That sounds like the tank would be super bright. Wouldn't this harm/stun fish in the tank?

Thanks for your replies!

vikki

12-05-2013, 08:31 AM

Thanks for these tips very helpful

vikki

12-05-2013, 08:32 AM

Very interesting information!

ChloroPhil

12-19-2013, 12:56 PM

Wow, I'm surprised this thread's still up. A lot's changed since I first wrote those pages 11 years ago, LOL. It may be time to make some revisions. :)

bhound2

12-22-2013, 01:15 PM

Chlorphil, glad to see you are still on the forum. I am new to discus and live plants though I have successfully kept various community and cichlid tanks for over 20 years. Years ago, you were very creative at finding ferts for your tanks to maintain proper levels. I can only hope that things are easier these days. A couple of questions that maybe you can shed some insight on:

1. Watts per gallon seems antiquated with the new LED lighting systems such as the Marineland Aquatic Plant LED Lighting System. In my 50g acrylic, 36"x15"x20" for example, my MAP light has 36 1w white LEDS and 6 3w blue LEDS. Production is 6500k, 3480 lumens. The RGB/Lunar lamps provide 460nm, 600nm and green accent lighting. Light seems to reach the bottom of the 20" deep tank easily. Do you have any updates regarding use of LED lighting?

2. There are now lots of aquarium specific ferts available. Recommendations on specific types to achieve algae free conditions?

3. Test kits? Recommendations of currently available test kits to maintain a healthy planted discus tank?

Thanks for all your original information. The concept of a healthy tank hasn't changed, just need to figure out the best current supplies out there to achieve it.