Does quality Really Matter in a Discus?

Ok a little pole just to see how many of us really do care.
lately it seems Quality is not the issiue here but lets find out! Before I send out my next order.

TakeCare, + Thanks
Cary Gld!

[Don_Lee]

Great idea for a poll Cary. I know that my problem is that I am still learning about what quality really is. I have read lots of books, looked at lots of pics, and had the pleasure of speaking with some very knowledgeable people like Cary. However, I still know I have alot to learn, but I always want the best quality I can afford. I enjoy buying juveniles, so I have not run in to cost being too limiting yet. Personally, I do not want to buy anything from someone I feel may not be selling high quality.....a big reason this board is so helpful.

Don ;D

[DHDiscusMan]

Personally, I think that drive for better and better quality fish is partly a function of dedication (obsession) to the hobby itself. When I first started an aquarium just over a year ago, it was my first. I went to the fish shop and just loved the discus they had there.

My first fish therefore were the lower quality LFS fish (which were also very expensive) but I didn't know what other options were available. As I've read some of the books along with this and other websites I have learned more about what to look for in terms of quality. At the same time, however, I am still probably on the beginning side of "intermediate" in terms of my knowledge and collection of discus.

In the last month I have made two "Non-LFS" purchases. One was some babies and four small (1.5 inch or so) reds from Chad and the second was some larger fish from Jeff. I'm very happy with both purchases. I feel like I got great value for my money. I don't know that any of these fish will be "Breeder" or "Show" quality but by buying smaller specimens I can purchase more fish of different strains. That's important to me today. Getting to see lots of variety. Getting to raise fish of very different size. Also, making relationships with people who know a whole lot more about these fish than I do is also very important to me.

One day soon I plan to buy some fish from a few other domestic breeders who I have heard nothing but positive feedback about. As my interest in these fish builds I am sure that paying $75-100 or more per fish will be just part of the deal when I want to buy superior specimins. I'm also starting locally because the $75 shipping charge can buy me a few more fish if I pick them up.

Anyway, I think this hobby works very much like other things in our society. I can go out and buy a used car or a new low end car and that will drive me from point A to point B. As I'm willing to spend more money the quality and choices improve to a point. After a certain point, the car quality is there accross the board so now your choice comes down to style, service, options etc...

Quality is always worth the effort but it's also a compromise I have to work my way up to.

Sorry for the long winded post. This poll just got me thinking about some of the choices I make.

Thanks.

Dan

[April]

Cary...great poll.
it matters to me more and more. but as time goes on.i know more what i want. and if they look the way i like...they make me smile.
if i buy 2 inch fish..i do expect a few to not pan out..but i still expect most to grow out nice. of course this is with me doing my part by caring and feeding them properly.

i prefer to buy 3 inch these days..though. ;D

[Willie]

:D Cary;

I would be pleased to pay higher than list price from any reputable dealer for higher quality fish. The initial outlay is inconsequential when you consider the 12-months of water changes and TLC that needs to be invested to get good quality adult discus.

That's why I've ordered from you, Willie

Quality! quality! quality!

price isn't a factor really, but I would'nt mind paying extra for fish that came from you, or any reputable breeder.

depends what your into, if you just want something to look at give Joe Blow your 30 blings,

If you want quality, honesty, and fish that alot of hard work went into give Cary or Mike a call.

If 5 out of 8 became breeding potential, I'd be happy

[Jeff]

I would have to agree with you Dan. Every week I get people who only want the highest quality they can find. However, for every one like that I get 2 people who would rather have a volume of discus and want to settle for lower grade discus from the lfs. Still others are looking for large cheap discus regarles of quality and health. Quality does come with a price.

I have told several customers if you want higher quality buy larger discus. You can't be asured you are getting the highest quality discus at 2". Buy the largest you can afford if you are really after quality.

I'm probably a little different than most breeders/importers on Simply. I know most breeders/importers sell mostly via mail order. Mail order only accounts for about 5% of my business. The rest is all walk in traffic, referals, or they find me on the net. I always ask how did they find me and do they know about Simply. Then exactly what are you looking for. There are several lfs that sell low quality cheap and for some customers that is all they want.

I believe there are customers for all types of discus. It is my hope to always continue to increase my quality and service to all my customers.

Jeff,
I will assure You that 2" Discus can be judge for Body shape flaws Etc..


Maybe Not for color or how much size they will reach.
But still you as a breeder/Seller/importer should be able to make a very good close guess at 2" size.


Anyone agree? tell us Why?

Anyone not Agree Please share with us?

Cary Gld!

[Jeff]

I agree Cary for shape, but I do have a lot of spotted discus and they are not hormoned. Most people want to know what it will look like when it is larger. How many spots will it have, what will the size of the spots be, will the spots grow together to form a line or stay seperate, will they keep the spots, will the spots be over the entire body or just portions, will the fins also have spots?

I can't answer all these questions at 2". Possibly others can, but I can't. My advice for this person is to look at the larger fish. You have a better idea what you are buying at this time. Or go ahead and by the smaller ones, but be aware there will be differences in the fish as they grow out as far as patterns.

[Lynn]

I expect healthy fish that are of high quality.
If I order 8 fish, I want all 8 to be round and lacking any defects...no big eyes,short plates,bumpy noses, etc. I feel that a breeder can determine these things by 2". Color is icing on the cake, but may not be able to be determined so early. So if I am worried about color then I'll buy older fish.
I also prefer fish that are not highly inbred, nothing greater than F3.
I agree with Jason, if 5 out of 8 have breeding potential thats great!

I think as you learn about quality and gain rearing experience, then the bar is set higher for what you consider a 'great fish'.
Lynn

ps...my momma always told me that you can't get something for nothing!!!!

[Toothfairy]

Quality does matter, but so do other things like health, beauty (the roundest smallest-eyed discus is not necessarily the prettiest to the eye of the beholder), and budget. All of these factor in the discus purchasing choice. The single most important thing as a hobbyist IMHO is that you are happy with your purchase. Commercial breeders and contest aspirants would of course be looking for discus with specific characteristics to meet their specific goals.

I have fish from Jack Wattley, Bing Seto, Chad Bertoni, Jeff, and Cary (through Chad). But my favorite discus and the prettiest (in my opinion) is an LFS discus (see picture) which most of you would probably consider sub-par, non-conforming, substandard LFS cull. But it is still MY DISCUS and it makes me happy.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Cormorant]

I'm with Willie on this one.
Albert

Hi Jeff,
Very Nice Of you to share with us. But most of us allready Know that the lepoard strains 85% are Junk and will never reach a good size or live as long as other strains.


Why Do you Ask!
Cause No one breeds a discus that no one Wants! You claim in another post that a breeder breeds for a certain shape but over half of the people do not like. well to put it like this. This discus will not be breed if it does not cause a big demand!


Also am very aware of the Leopard I sold them for many years. If not hormoned then iron fed or heavy color feeding's. Anyways I cannot see you with a lep with no spots at 2" most imports are fully spotted and sold at 3"
Why? cuz of the Money! Its your duty to tell Your Cilients
What You Know about the Discus IMO

For example Red diamonds look spotted when little but as they grow the spots will connect. most do not care and import this discus for $10 or less and sell it for $80 us as leopards.

Again most spoted Discus Suck! I like color but I like a Big ROUND! discus first!

I have seen Leps at 3"spawning not to mention the damage to their internal organs from low ball color tactics.


Jeff am very glad that you want to be a good guy and all
We need more breeders like You! But remember the things that go bad this year You will not hear till next.

As of now I have nothing else To say The Poll speaks for it self!

Am done here!
Best wishes to All with leopards!
Cary Gld!

[paulmat]

I agree with Cary that you can see the quality in a 2" fish,maybe not the full coloration, but preportions and shape
are allready evident.

And I agree that Leopards are a weak strain!

People and LFS that I sell to want it all.(quality)#1. So do I when I order fish,But everybody's tastes and eye appeal
arn't the same. A fish that looks great to a less trained eye, may rate very low on Cary's scale.maby a little higher on yours. A judge in Singapore might flush it down the toilet. :puke:
It's true Beauty is in the eye of the beholder :gorgeous:

Paul :guitarist:

[April]

I agree with Cary on the leopards.....due to my experience.
i had very nice spotted well coloured fishies who grew and spawned. some did spawn at 3 inch and never got alot bigger. and then....they got stressed and ill....and with all their stress from my new pipes and a mild virus....they all one by one dropped dead. my other domestics got slightly ill...and my wilds barely showed any signs or none . the leopards took longer to recover...but really never did. I'm back to red turqs...and wilds.....and f1's etc.

[Jeff]

Ok Cary,

I have a question for you. If you have a client who has purchased a 180 or so gallon complete set up (tank, stand heaters, filtration, lighting etc) that they want to put into their rec room. This client is a professional who wants quality and they stress that they want quality and if they have to pay a little more to get quality they are willing to do that. This client isn't a discus expert, but knows a little about discus and knows they like different colors and
varieties. They then ask for a mixed array of discus to put into that tank.

What kind of discus would you recommend to them? and what size would you recommend they get?

I acknowledge your vast experience and just curious what you would recommend and why?

[roger]

Quality falls under the category of "I dont know what it is, but Ill know it when I see it".

IMO I firmly believe that quality and health have to go together. How can you have a quality fish that isnt healthy? Being a realist I do understand that as people create new and exciting fish that sometimes they thin the gene pool out a bit, possibly to far. But once that has occured I would be guessing that they start to breed in fresh blood to help counteract that initial thinning.

All that being said wild discus come in all shapes and sizes. So who is to say football looking RSG isnt a good quality fish?

[jeep]

I didn't know what qualty in a discus was until I found this forum. I still may not know the exact in's and out's of what to look for, but I sure know a lot more than I did before.

Seems to me that the LFS in my area are just as pricy, if not more, than the quality breeders and all I can find at the LFS is VERY low quality. I recently saw a LFS Marlboro Red that was 2" long and 3/4" high with eyes the size of pencil erasers going for $45 us.

Now I guess I want the best quality and I'm willing to pay for it, just like any addiction ;D

I've been making my next selection for over 6 months now (I know, too picky???) but I have to make my decision based upon the reputation of the breeder and the pictures he presents. If a breeder says a customer should expect "X,Y & Z" and nothing less in a quality fish, I would trust that breeder to deliver those exact qualities to the best of his ability.

Jeff,
I would Tell them to go After my GLD grab bag! ;D

These would be Discus That am raiseing for Pairing.
You see I keep 15 of each strain That I have breed and outcrossed Myself I Only raise up The best for pairing in My 150 gal tanks.

If he called now! He would get at 5" $100 each

blue diamonds crossed with white butterfly f1
white diamonds X tangarines f2
red leopards backcrossed to wild rsg's f1
tangarines f2
red dolls x redmelons f1

At 2" for $40 each
gold Diamond X snowflake f1
blue fine line snake x snow flake f1
Jewldiamond x white diamond f1
red melon x red doll f1
tangarines f2
red snake x blue snake f1
red snake x leopard
white diamond x tangarine f2

I would not loss any sleep selling any of these strains or sizes cuz I know the background of each discus.
first I would give him a full gaurentee on live shippment
and also include a 3 week bill of health!
I would also insure My client if they were to buy the bigger Discus I could Gaurentee a full size of 7" to 8" if given the best care.

Jeff COLOR IS FOR NEWBIES! Thats why the discus has a bad rep! I know and You know Like most others know that 75% of the discus biz is newbies. this makes it easy for breeders to sell junk a$$ runted full of diseases f14 Discus to all.

Most newbies Discus will die in less then a year.
some cuz they did not know what they were doing but most beause the discus was juck and sick to start.
its also easyer to blame them and tell them it was all their fault.

So there you have it the cycle begins again!
DISCUS NOWAY! TO HARD TO KEEP! NEVER AGAIN!

So you see in the long run this is bad for our hobby.
IMO anyone can import Discus for fast cash. and thats all its about! IME. I would like to see more us breeders breed their own but they don't because of $

You Claim all your Discus are nice? And I would hope so.

I said this before and I'll say it again there is something wrong with every imported discus for the most part.
Even if its mild like a broken bar Or Much worst like internal damage. You also agree in another post that your not sure were your spotted discus come from. WHY NOT?

Are you willing to hurt your name and at the same time fill your exporters pocket with cash?

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

Cary is correct.
I had 2 imports and both are bad.
The first is low quality and the second is diseased.

I am going to Cary and Cherry Pick my next.

[RichieE]

Quality has always been very importaint to me and the more I know the easier it is to spot.This is the order of importance to me:

1) Health - do we even have to mention this?

2) Right size for the age of fish -never even thought to ask age at first

3) Roundness -this was hardly a consideration to me at first but now its necessary

4) color/pattern- I am considering buying only larger fish in the future. As my fish have grown and I am running out of room I realize that fish that are just nice are not what I want. I would rather have 8 outstanding fish than 12 good ones. I am harder to please now than when I started. Rich

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Quality ha ha
I am obsessed with it, I want the absolute best fish I can get my little grubby hands on.
Discus with me are more than just a hobbie they are a passion.
I agree with Cary yes you should be able to judge the quality of fish at 2 inches or sooner.
Dennis

[Jeff]

Cary,

Thanks for the reply. When I said before I did not know where Wayne gets his breeding stock you are right I should know and will make a point to learn more about how he has breed what he has. I know that he did breed the red diamonds, but do not know where the original stock came from.

I agree with you it would be nice to see more Americans breed their fish, but at this time I don't see any American breeders creating anything new. It seems the Asians have the market on this. I hope you can be the first to come out with something new.

I take it by your post you will never import again. I really look forward to what you will be producing in the future. Keep up the good work. ;)

[tango0806]

We prefer to obtain our Discus from a quality breeder, although we expect that a good breeder should know his fish there are times when you get a runt or a Discus that does not turn out to meet your expectations. None the less we still love these fish and accept them as they are. We do expect quality and health if we are paying top price for the fish. One of the reasons that we donot like buying a Discus that is under 4 inches. JMO

John & Kathy G

Jeff the first red Diamonds were breed By
Mr lo wing yat in Hong kong!


Jeff I like you alot you have spunk like me. If you ever need help with anything feel free to call anytime!

Your Friend Allways
Cary Gld!

[fcdiscus]

There is no substitute for quality. Problem is, there are very few people who are really willing to pay for it. Why buy perfect Red Pigeons from Cary for 35 when you can buy Red Copulating Diamond Super Heps for only 25? ;) Frank

GREAT Poll!!!!!!

Cary,
Quality we always speak for its self.

Miles

[Liz_Streithorst]

Cary, Whay didn't you tell me about the "grab bag"? You mean that as much as I love the ones I got, I could have gotten ones even BETTER :o. To me quality is the ONLY thing.

Liz

[April]

Carys has famous grab bags. I have always told everyone to ask Cary for a grab bag
ive gotten two grab bags now. just tell him you will be needing a grab bag.and send money. lol
kinda like xmas. he will choose his best fishies he can for you.
;D 8)

[OEG]

Sorry joining this late and i know this point has been talked about earlier but i agree with Cary that fish like leopards are crud, infact i have 3 leopard SS that i purchased from a very well known breeder which will remain nameless and i am willing to give them away to anyone who will pay for shipping they are not up to my standards and would make good community fish. I would never breed them to anything i have and they will be culled or given away to friends with tanks. I am trying to concentrate on other strains.
Oscar

[Jaie]

Hey Oscar I'll take 'em leopards from you! I'll consider them early christmas presents. :)

[sanan]

QUALITY = HEALTH + SHAPE + GENE

Before I started reading this forum I was unsure about a quality fish. Thanks to all of you I have learned a few things about Discus and at least know bad quality when I see one.

As part of getting quality fish I would loved to have had a GENE history with photos of the parents of the fish I am getting. Does anyone actually provide lineage info on fish they sell?


One of the 75% of newbies learning one fish at a time ;D

[dm]

I've got a long way to go before I really know what I am doing with Discus. One thing I have learned is that you are for the most part brutally honest about how you feel when asked. There is no better way for us to learn than from that. Thanks!

[BLUEKNIGHT]

Hey cary nice of you to think this up. also i will be calling you soon for one of your grab bag. One thing i learned so far in this hobby is you get what you pay for. ;D

[fcdiscus]

Not to be negative Blueknight ::), but one thing I have learned in this hobby recently is there are a lot of unscrupulous sellers out there, and you do not always get what you pay for! Frank ;)

[DREW]

Quality, quality, quality or is it location location location :P For myself I'm limited to space and extra funds for discus so quality is very important. I just don't want good qualtiy I want exceptional quality something the big breeder would use for his own breeding program. They take a lot of time and some money to raise why waste your resources on less than perfect fish. Of course I would have a hard time destroying culls I have soft heart for most things. I guess I'll worry about that when I come to it ;D

To add to this thread--All is not what it seems!

Many unscrupulous breeders --exporters--as well as importers have not truthfully labeled the fish. I have seen discus called leopards that were merely red turquoise---not even good turquoise at that! Spotted--line fish That is basically a broken line and not spotted at all! True leopards should be spotted somewhat at 2--2 1/2" but more spots should come later. The same with leopard snakeskin. The spots first appear at the dorsal, anal and caudal areas and converge to fill out the body.
Although it seems the spotted varieties are not as large as other variants, I have personally grown leopards, leopard snakes, and others to 6-7". I entered a 6 1/2" Oriental Dream X Golden Anaconda in the Duisburg show. however it did not fare well as the coloration was not show worthy until after the judging. I did however sell the fish there for $800 USD --apparently the strain was not that weak!
I also have some that hadn't panned out --but this has occurred with other strains as well. I feel with some insightful selective breeding, the turquoise will once again reign. The Giant Flora has alot of potential to improve the turquoise aswell as other existing veterans. Joe ;)

[OEG]

Drew You hit it right on the head, Most of us are in that same boat, not enought funds and limited space and we cannot afford to have less than ethical breeders send us bad fish at rediculous prices. Some of these folks just want to make as much money on a single fish as possible. How many of us would pay 800.00 dollars for a single fish of any type. Not many and why would you, what kind of return are you going to get, great babies maybe maybe not. Who would take that kind of risk with the limited knowledge that we have concerning discus genetics. Great for those who can find the kind of person who would but not I. Ill buy the ten babies at a good price and see what comes.
Oscar

[Ardan]

in the old days, when I didn't know what quality meant, I didn't pay attention, but since I have learned many things from Cary and the good folks on this site, I have learned to look at quality and health in a new light. It is very important now and I know at least some of the things to look for.

Getting the fish from a "quality breeder" assures me that they will be certain of the health and quality and I don't have to worry too much.

So I say thanks for sharing your knowledge everyone! 8)


Ardan

Oscar, The fish is young--1yr old. It is definitely show quality. Discus peak at 2 yrs. old as far as international competition goes. This discus was still developing in size as well as coloration and deportment. After showing the fish after two yrs., then one could consider breeding.
France, germany, belgium, China, Taiwan. Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lampur, Germany and other countries have annual competitions. The prize money in Duisburg is as follows: Grand Champion--$5000 USD, First place in each category--$1000, Second Place--$500, Third Place--$250. The reason to pay a large amount of money---- the gentleman surely wanted the fish more than I --as it was his offer, Is to try to recoup the investment by placing in a competition---same as why people overpay for any show animal.

Regards, Joe ;)

[Smokey]

When I deceided to purchase new discus stock it took a lot of looking, talking, hair pulling. This site was invalualable, helping me deceide what strain I wanted and from who I would purchase.

however, you have brought up an excellant point; ex: the local fish shops want " cheap " discus to buy, so they can make a larger profit. I have seen customers buy a fish cause it look "nice"; they do not care about all the time and work that went into breeding, raising, feeding, changing diapers, burbing, sitting up long hours just to make sure they are O.K..
Ethic's and personal satisfaction is my guide. Without conviction, well, I may as well raise feeder goldfish.

smokey
Dedicated to the discus. period..

[Lynn]

Smokey,

Your last 2 sentences said it all!!!!
Hard work,conviction,dedication is what shows up in quality discus. Instantaneous gratification does not cut it in the discus world.

[hunterbeav]

Hay Cary am I missing something here? This statement was made by you in this thred. Quot: I said this before and I'll say it again there is something wrong with every imported discus for the most part.
Even if its mild like a broken bar Or Much worst like internal damage. You also agree in another post that your not sure were your spotted discus come from. WHY NOT?

Are you willing to hurt your name and at the same time fill your exporters pocket with cash?

TakeCare,
Cary Gld! One question Cary don't you import fish also?? Just trying to figure out where your coming from????

One Word CARY..... HELLYA!!!!!

[SLY]

Quality is the way..but for beginners I suggest u get the lower grade fishes just to try out keeping them..at the end of the day you do not want to kill a quality A grade discus that cost you tons of $$$ with 1 stupid mistake u make. Just my 2 cents.

[OEG]

Joe, I see your point but what i was referring to is the fact that there is no guarantee that he or she will be a good producer, heck they may not lay or fertilize for that matter and then if they do they could be chronic egg eaters or fry eaters. If i show my dog and win consistantly and achieve Grand Champion status then im pretty much guaranteed some return, for the simple reason that we have more knowledge and insight when it comes to dog genetics than that of fish. I could stud him out i could sell his sperm and if mated to a quality female then you know that atleast half of that litter will be high quality, not so with fish especially spotted ones maybe one or two will be nice and the rest would end up being pretty nice pets. Now we are talking 800 dollars, sh$t i paid 500 dollars for my dog which is out of two champions, which are on there way to being grant champs. I just dont think that any fish is worth that amount of money, especially with no return or no real chance of return. If you breed two champ leopard SS together what would you get? Do you think you would get two more champs out of the whole lot? Maybe maybe not. I would bet not. I love these fish and think they are the most awesome animals with such diversity but not worth that much, especially since breeders have made the new strains weak. Just tens yrs ago when i firs started with discus i never had any bad infections and now in less than a year i have had atleast three outbreaks, i really think its due to the breeders crazy imaginations to make a new super duper strain that looks great but is weak and more likely to get sick. All have the right to buy what they want and pay what they want, more power to you if you have people dishing out 800.00 dollars for a fish.
Oscar

[Denny]

i have to agree with sly on that one. as a newbie i bought fish that were not high quality and for learning the care of the fish that was good, although the fish need to be bought healthy. shape in the beginning is not as important.now that i feel i have a grasp on keeping them healthy, i am demanding higher quality when i buy.

it is sorta like learning to drive. when i got my license i wanted to buy this 1970 plum crazy purple hemi cuda for $2700,, which was a great deal on a very clean rediculously fast car. but my dad got me a green '73 nova instead that i ended up schmucking up after a late night. later i bought a '72 chevelle s.s and kept it intact.

the other problem with the quality issue is the availability of prime fish at a fair price. i would love to get my hands on some high quality adult females but once people get them they don't sell them.

denny

Sly brought up a great point about grade A fish.
Unless you know a breeder personally or through unquestionable reputation, then grade A, A+, AAA+, or Super A+++ doesn't matter.
They will all promise you these super fish for a price.
You order 10 and would get 2 good fish and the rest are B's.

Bottom line, don't buy fish without research.

[Liz_Streithorst]

OEG, I don't know fish well yet but I know dogs and I know breeding of several animals. Dogs are one of the most geniticaly diverse of mammals. The fact that Chihuahuas and Great Danes could if bred together produce fertile offspring proves the genetic diversity of the species. Genetic defects are common in dogs and good breeders test their animals for these before breeding their dogs. This goes for champions, too. It is common for champions to breed together and produce a litter of pets. Still, if I wanted to try to breed the best puppies I could I would pick the best parents I could. And if I wanted to produce the best fry I could I would pick the best looking fish I could find. Breeding is always a gamble but you don't get great stuff from mediocre stock. Investing in the best increases your chances of producing the best even if most of what is produced are exceptional quality pets. Besides there is value in being able to look at a beautiful animal every day whether you breed it or not. And what exactly is a Grand Champion in dogs? Never heard of such. And BTW, a $500. dog from good stock in any breed would be a pet and would usually sold with a spay/neuter agreement. Still nicer to look at than some puppy mill trash though, huh? Liz

[Cowboy]

In hindsight I like the way I did it. I was scared to invest much $$ with my very limited knowledge, yet scared to invest those $$ just anywhere. So, I limited my potential sources to just the breeders recommended here. Then, I limited myself to their least expensive ones. In the end $200 got me 12 fish and shipping. I have gained valuable experience without a large investment, thus enabling myself to enjoy more without the stress. Ultimately for me it boils down to the fish are there to serve me. If I'm sweating it out because I spent too much money then my priorities are out of wack. What I did was kept my $$ low, while buying from a very reputable dealer. I feel I got quality and lower price. As I gain more experience I feel I could justify the purchase of more expensive fish as long as they serve me and not me them.
Todd

[OEG]

Liz,
If you look at UKC standard and rules and maybe a dogs certificate of permanent Registration which show its pedigree, if there is champions in the lineage then it will state so if there is Gr Champs it will also state so. There is such a thing as grand champion in dogs that have reached a certain level there is even an intrntl grand champ status. I think you misunderstood what im trying to point out here, if you want to spend 800.00 dollars for a fish that cool with me, but do you think your going to get show winners? maybe but when i mention dogs i bet ill get atleast one or two dogs out of a litter that will win shows consistantly you cant tell me that you believe you would get that out of an 800.00 dollar discus. When you mention chihuahuas and such breeds your right the gene pool there is really mucked up as well as with great danes and german shepard and other breeds like that, but again as i mentioned before thats due to dip shits that want to breed and make money not get high quality offspring, that has been done with dogs and fish. The kennel i get my dog from only breeds maybe one litter in two years, thats why i only have a male and no female yet. Now there is alot of people who just want the money and dont care about the breeds and the fish we love, and thats not to say that Joe is one who just wants the money, i think he got lucky getting 800 dollars for a fish but again if thats what you want to do then go right ahead, i dont think Carys stock or Mikes stock is 800 dollar fish and they are just as beautiful if not more. I hope i have made my point maybe im just a cheap *** who will only pay 400dollars for a mated pair.
Oscar

[OEG]

By the way Liz my dog is champion material, i just dont have the time to show him, wish is did so I could show some ribbons to you. He is my baby and i love him dearly, so dont ever call him a spay or neutr dog again. :P

[fcdiscus]

Something no one has really touched on- as a sometime seller, i want to send my fish to some one who appreciates quality, and will give these fish the care they deserve. Until you raise a group or two of babies, it is hard to understand the hard work and care that must go into raising quality fish. The last thing I want is for a buyer to call me or e-mail me and tell me the fish are crap, or they are dying on them. Frank

Hay Cary am I missing something here? This statement was made by you in this thred. JIM YOU NEED HELP AGAIN? MAN WHATS YOUR DEAL? HEE.HEEE.HEE ;D OYA! WHILE AM AT IT I SENT YOU A OLD IM THAT WAS SENT TO SOMEONE ELSE BY MISTAKE. LOL!!!!! ;D Quot: I said this before and I'll say it again there is something wrong with every imported discus for the most part. YES JIM 80% OF THE DISCUS IMPORTED HAVE SOME KIND OF FLAW OR TARNISH TO IT. MAYBE JUST A BROCKEN BAR,CHIPPED EYE,BAD SHAPE,SHORT GILL COVERS,CURVED SPINES,BIG EYES. LET ME STOP HERE.
Even if its mild like a broken bar Or Much worst like internal damage. THATS RIGHT COULD EVEN BE HEALTH PROBLEMS NOT ONLY TO YOUR DISCUS BUT TO YOU AS-WELL. You also agree in another post that your not sure were your spotted discus come from. WHY NOT? I WAS TALKING TO JEFF I KNOW WERE ALL MY IMPORTS CAME FROM WHEN I DID IMPORT TO SELL AND COLLECT.

Are you willing to hurt your name and at the same time fill your exporters pocket with cash? WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? JIM AM SORRY BUT THIS IS ALL WAY OVER YOUR HEAD. I WAS TALKING TO JEFF AGAIN ASKING HIM IF HE WAS WILLING TO EXCEPT LOW GRADE OR SICK DISCUS AND SELL THEM TO OTHERS DURING THIS TIME HURTING HIS NAME WHILE FILLING HIS EXPORTERS POCKET. IN OTHER WORDS I WAS TELLING JEFF TO SPEAK UP AND GET TO KNOW HIS EXPORTER SO THEY CAN BUILD A RELATIONSHIP.

YOU SEE JIM MOST ASAIN'S SELL THE BAD DISCUS TO THE US CUZ WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT BUY THEM ITS NO ONE'S FAULT BUT OUR OWN.
One question Cary don't you import fish also?? Just trying to figure out where your coming from???? WELL JIM I SARTED MY BIZ BUY BREEDING ALL OF MY OWN STOCK. I DID SO WELL THAT I HAD TO START IMPORTING JUST TO KEEP UP. NOT TO ADD THAT AM A DISCUS JUNKY AND WANT EVERY STRAIN. ;D ;D
ANYWAY'S I TRYED MANY DIFFRENT PLACES TO IMPORT FROM
NEVER FULLY HAPPY DEALING WITH ONE. WELL TO GET TO THE POINT I LEARNED MANY THINGS VERY FAST ABOUT QUALITY, DISEASE'S, ETC..

NOW I NEVER SAID JEFF'S IMPORTER WAS BAD INFACT I HAVE A FEW STRAINS FROM THAT BREEDER THAT ARE VERY HIGH QUALITY! THAT I LIKE VERY MUCH. I JUST SEE JEFF POSTING THINGS THAT I KNOW ARE NOT TRUE AND AM ONLY HOLDING MY GROWN. I STARTED MY GOOD NAME BY HELPING OTHERS POSTING TO FOURMS AND SELLING GOOD QUALITY DISCUS FOR A LONG TIME NOW. ALL I ASK IS TO KEEP IT REAL I ALLWAYS HAVE AND EXPECT OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.
ALSO MY LAST IMPORTS FROM ROY + SLY IN SINGAPORE HAVE BEEN THE VERY BEST! AND I WOULD MARK THEM UNDER THE 20% HOWEVER AT THIS TIME I AM NOT SELLING DISCUS ANYMORE UNTILL AFTER XMAS. MOST OF WHAT I'LL BE SELLING WILL BE OF STOCK BREED BY MYSELF.

SO GUESS YOUR ANWSER IS NO!!!!!!!!
I WILL NOT BE IMPORTING TO SELL ANYMORE. I STILL PLAN ON DEALING WITH ROY AND SLY IN THE FUTURE BUT THIS WILL BE MAINLY STRAINS TO COLLECT FOR ME AND MY FRIENDS. ;)

HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND NOW!
BEST WISHES
CARY gld!

[Liz_Streithorst]

Sorry Oscar, I don't know dip about UKC, juct AKC. Maybe you can by a UKC show dog for $500. If so, they are a lot less expensive than AKC show material. Neither would your average AKC breeder sell a show quality dog to someone who wasn't going to show. A guess registry orginizations and the people in them are different. Perhaps the UKC dogs even produce more consistently superior offspring than AKC dogs. I don't know.

I think that the guy who bought the $800. fish was awestruck by its beauty, felt that he could use it to his advantage in his breeding program, and could afford to offer what it was worth to him which was $800. When you have a passion for something you will pay a lot more than what the average guy would ever imagine. I have paid $2000. for a goat and thought I got a good deal :o. Weather the fish turns out to be worth it to him will depend on his skill and luck.

Liz

[April]

that there is a very nice grooming job. did you groom it?
im a groomer ....remember?
;D but i dont do grooming for show. just for pets..

[Liz_Streithorst]

I wish, April. That dog was won the Non Sporting over 17" class at the trade show/grooming competition in Dallas. He's a retired show dog and was groomed by Sue Watson. Believe it on not she did not go on to win BIS with that beautiful fob. Scott Wasserman won with a Bouv. I'll attach another photo of Sue's and one of my best effort so far. I plan to start competing in Atlanta next year. Thank God they have a division for beginning competitors. I'd hate for my work to have to be seen right next to Sue's ::) Liz

[Liz_Streithorst]

Here's my dog Luther groomed by me. Luther's just a pet but good enough quality for the grooming competitions.

[Liz_Streithorst]

He're my dog Syivie in my grooming shop. She's a rescue from a puppy mill and has too many faults (roach back, crooked front, cow hocked, flat feet, loooong body, low tail set, etc.) to comepete with but she's great for practice cause I have to try to camafloge all that stuff. She does have an awsome coat. Now what ever you do DON'T give me an excuse to start posting pics of my show goats ;D Liz

Sly,
Good point but I sell my high Quality Discus Cheap!
$30 to $35 2.5" to 3" the same price as the rest or less!
takecare,
cary gld!

Sly,
Good quality dosen't mean expensive and expensive dosen't mean good quality... I sell the ones I occasionally breed at $10 a piece, the ones I consider as bad quality goes to the lab for experimental purposes..... I stated donating them to a friend for the lab for experimentation on drugs that could help me treat and control pathogens infesting discus.

[DarkDiscus]

There's nothing like a big, round quality discus!

John

[Tim_Ellis]

Hey Anand,

I was over at John Nicholsons this last weekend and got to see some of your snakeskins. Very nice! Please let me know when you have some more to sell.

Tim

OEG,
I see you got the most endangered dog in America.
Maybe you heard of the term, "Hanging Paper" which is common to the breed.
Same thing with discus and everything else, especially the new crosses.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Anand,


lab for experimental purposes..... I stated donating them to a friend for the lab for experimentation on drugs that could help me treat and control pathogens infesting discus.

I'd like to hear more about this sometime. Any positive results?

-al

[Chad]

I can personally attest to what Cary says to be truth…..

I started my business very naive to all of this but have learned very quickly. I now import nothing and will only do so for myself…. I breed everything I sell, except for the few I have brought in to cross my own stock with. This really limits my business and in fact really classifies me as more of a hobbyist. I will never make a lot of money selling Discus and don’t really care. It’s really my true desire to clean out the crap and others who try to portray their crap as good. So in short…. When I buy from you Cary….. I want 8 out of 8 brother!!!


BTW: I HATE LEAPORDS!!!! SICK DISEASED CRAP!!!!


Chad
;D

[hunterbeav]

Hay Cary but you did import thats the bottom line and no where did you say 80% were flawed in your first post you said ALL!!! So it's ok for you to do it , but others are dummies linning the pockets of importers for doing it ? I don't get you!!!!! Oh and you say you woun't do it any more ?? Why were you wrong doing it in the first place???And all those fish you did import and sell were you selling crap to your customers????Or is that just anyone else thats selling imports?Ps did you tell everyone that bought imported fish from you that you were selling them inferior imported fish as you yourself put it?? Your Pal Jim :)

Maybe this is a case of "live & learn". It sounds like Cary is saying that in the past he's seen a bunch of problems with imports and isn't interested in taking the risk or passing that risk on to his customers. The only way he could learn that is by importing or by hearing horror stories from other importers. Now does that mean he should contact every customer that he has ever sold imported Discus to? I don't think so, but you might. From what I've seen Cary deals with every dissatisfied customer fairly and compensates them to their satisfaction. So if anyone that received imports was pissed off I imagine they have already been dealt with. And those customers that are satisfied don't need to be contacted in my opinion. Sometimes there's just no accounting for the culls that some people find satisfactory, don't you agree?

Dave

[April]

yes....Dave is right..cary is talking from experience. and ive heard and seen some of it.
anyhow..we will wait for carys better explanation. remember.cary talks better on phones than he writes. so let him explain . think sometimes hes misread.
also..if cary got sent culls...he would not pass them on i know that for sure. hed eat the cost. perhaps hes eaten too many costs. and given too many away if anything.

WELL THANK YOU JIM MAY I HAVE ANOTHER? :whip:

NO BUT REALLY THANKS DAVE AND APRIL FOR TRYING TO HELP OUT THE BEVER.

Hay Cary but you did import thats the bottom line YEP I DID FROM HONG KONG, MALAYSIA,SINGAPORE,THAILAND,VIETNAM,USA,TAWAN. and no where did you say 80% were flawed in your first post you said ALL!!! DAM JIM YOUR GOOD BUT NOT THAT GOOD TIGER! I SAID FOR THE MOST PART. (NOT ALL!!!) PLEASE GO BACK AND REREAD. THANK YOU BEVER FOR YOUR COOPERATION. BEVER I MEAN TIGER HEE.HEE.HEE So it's ok for you to do it , but others are dummies linning the pockets of importers for doing it ? MAN JIM AM SORRY YOU TOOK IT THAT WAY! BUT I DO UNDERSTAND WERE YOUR COMEING FROM CUZ YOU HALF TO LOOK AT THE DISCUS IN YOUR TANKS EVERYDAY :P I don't get you!!!!! WELL QUIT CHASEING ME AND I'LL STOP RUNNING 8) Oh and you say you woun't do it any more ?? NO SIR I SAID I WILL STILL IMPORT FROM MY BOYS FROM SING SING CUZ THEY KNOW ABOUT THE Q THING TOO! ALSO I WILL PICK DISCUS UP FROM HONG KONG AND MALAYSIA THUR DANNY AND JOE CUZ THEY GET Q TO. NO I WILL NOT IMPORT TO SELL ANYMORE TO THE PUBLIC ONLY FOR FRIENDS AND COLLECTORS AND ME. Why were you wrong doing it in the first place??? MAN ARE WE ON THE SAME BOARD OR WHAT? WERE DID YOU GET THIS? And all those fish you did import and sell were you selling crap to your customers???? NO I ATE THE COST BUT ALL GOT GOOD QUALITY. IN THE END ALL ARE HAPPY THAT'S WHAT COUNTS. AND I BREED AT THE SAME TIME I IMPORTED BRO. YOU KNOW LIKE YOU! YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR RAWLING'S. SO THATS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS RIGHT? SORRY TIGER! FOR THE MOST PART ALL MY CLIANTS ARE HAPPY JUST LIKE YOU. :P SO LETS CUT THE CRAP OK MAN. Or is that just anyone else thats selling imports? JIM WHY DON'T YOU GO LOOK AT YOUR ABD AND COOL OFF :P
Ps did you tell everyone that bought imported fish from you that you were selling them inferior imported fish as you yourself put it?? WELL THAT DID'ENT WORK DID IT? I GUESS I WOULD FEEL THE SAME AFTER LOOKING AT THOSES FOR 5 MIN'S. SORRY AGAIN BEVER YOU SHOULD OF LISTENED TO WALLY! EVERYTHING IS PEACHY ON MY END WITH MY PEOPLE DON'T MAKE WAR BETWEEN ME AND JEFF CUZ YOU WANTED A GOOD DEAL AND NOW CANNOT TAKE THE CRAP OF A FEW PEOPLE NOT LIKEING THEM. YOU GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT RIGHT WALLY? :P Your Pal Jim COULD OF FOOLED ME :o
TAKECARE AND KIT! COOL BEANS! BEFORE I BLK LIST YOU I WILL LEAVE YOU WITH A TIP THE HARDEST PART IS RAISEING THE FRY. NOT SPAWNING OR HATCHING. YOU WILL CALL ME ONE DAY SOON ;D OR MIKE :P
BEST WISHES TIGER ;)
CARY GLD!
CARY gld!

[Denny]

nah,
no need to call you guys when he can call someone with 400 yrs and 40 million observation hrs that can sex a discus at 3" from 40 yds barehanded. ;D

oops i better stop. :waaa:


denny

[brewmaster15]

Jim,
I'm puzzled here. There doesn't seem to be any great mystery here at. Dave C. Summed it up great. In addition to that Cary has been straightforward with the Hobby from Day 1. He raised his own, and tried the imports. The were largely diseased and inferior...He went the extra effort to have them tested for disease and destroyed them when they had illness. I do not know of any other breeder out there that would even tell the hobby of the problems Cary discovered... Many would just sell and not dig into this issue.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=2980

Incidentally by his posts on this and other forums he effectively warned other breeders of the dangers and by doing so helped the hobbysist out greatly, and probably took a lot of heat for it as well from some.

Bottom line he realized that the imports are no real bargain if you risk the disease and have to cull heavy to maintain quality. Thats not to say that all imports are bad, but many are. Better to breed them yourself and have full control.


Theres no need for character attacks here. I have a feeling there is more to this post than whats being said. and I would prefer that it be continued off the board. I try to be impartial on this board, but I consider Cary a great friend and one of the most honest individuals out there, with a heart of gold...I don't know what the motivation here is, but it is not appreciated.

-al

BREW,
Thank you so much BUT DO NOT BE MAD AT JIM HE KNOWS NOT WHAT IS SAID.


BREW ITS ALL MY FAULT FOR TELLING JIM I DID NOT LIKE THE BODY SHAPE OF HIS DISCUS.

JIM AND BREW AM VERY SORRY AND WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN.
CARY GLD!

[ALEXIS]

Quality and diease free fish have always been my priority from the start. I have watched Mr. Strong from the beginning up until the present. It was always easy for me to tell the difference from the fish he bred and the ones he imported. I have never been a big fan of imports because they turn the hobbist in to holding stations and breeders. What I am impling by this is if I have to Q-T a fish 7-8 weeks because a breeder imported them and shipped them right out to me. I am doing what the seller should have done before the sale.(I am not implying Cary does this or this is is practice). I recall my first shipment from Al at Rocky Mountian Discus. He guranteed his fish to be clean and they could be added to my tank - the q-t as long as no shipping problem ocurred. I also recall Mr Strong giving me the same gurantee on my first three shipments from him ! I admire the breeder that imports for new strians and sells his own breed discus that he can stand behind ! It is clear that q-t is very neccesary due to the nasties coming from imports. It is also possible to follow the q-t process and your other stock gets infected from the many air borne nasties ! So my question is how do you take care of customer who has followed the q-t process and suffered losses(8 months -1year old stock you are growing out) from the imports due to airbone infectons to them ! If a fish is a carry it is no cure ! This is for all who have e-mailed me and called me to ask why I have turn my back on the King of Fish. I can no longer bear going to the trash can with a fish that has reached adult hood only to be killed by a import housed in another tank ! It is no longer a hobby when I have to set my house up like a hatchery to receive fish because the breeder did not clean them up or q-t (in sum case just do away with them and take the lost )them long enough. I enjoyed the hobby when I could keep it simple, it is no longer that way due to all of the unknows coming in with the imports ! To sum it up I am glad to hear your breeding your own Discus full time again Cary. This is in no way directed toward Cary or his practices but this was a good spot to place this post. To end this, I wish everyone a good day and a God Bless your friend and discus fan(made in the USA) Alexis ;D ;D

P.S. ALL FISH SHOULD BE Q-T NO MATTER WHAT !

Quarantine all fish that you receive for 6 weeks. It doesn't matter if they're imported or locally bred, they could have been in contact with sick fish from any source. They could also be coming off of medications themselves from the breeder's establishment. They could also have been weakened from shipping and bacteria/parasites that they are normally able to cope with overwhelm them. There is no excuse for not quarantining fish. If you don't q them then don't blame the breeder... don't buy the fish... you aren't set up to care for them properly. If the vendor replaces your sick/dying fish that resulted from your inadequate quarantine procedures then you're passing your mistakes onto the breeder and we all pay for that the next time we buy from that breeder. Sure you can still have problems from airborne diseases but that's no excuse to ignore the simple, effective quarantine procedures such as separate tanks, separate equipment and placing a cull in the tank with new fish. It just makes sense to do the best you can do to protect your fish and the breeder that you respect and wish to do business with in the future. This post is not directed at anyone in particular, just wanted to make sure that no one thinks that quarantine is unnecessary for domestic fish.

Dave

[ALEXIS]

Dave I was not stating q-t was not needed. I was stating or making the point that a breeder can gurantee health of the stock they breed with a money back gurantee.

It didn't sound like that to me. Sounded like you're saying you shouldn't have to QT your fish for 7-8 weeks because the breeder should have done that. You also mention that breeders have told you that they guarantee their fish to be clean and you could immediately add them to your tank as long as no shipping problem occurred. You then said that QT is very necessary for imports. The impression I was left with is that quarantine is only necessary if you receive imports or if there is a shipping problem. I can guarantee you that if you don't QT your Discus, regardless of who shipped them, domestic or imports, you will get burned. It may not happen on every shipment but you will get burned. So QT every fish that you receive as if they were imports and you will be much happier in the long run. Don't you agree? If so, reread your post because that's not what you said.

Dave

p.s. I'd be interested to hear from anyone that has received >5 shipments of fish, hasn't quarantined them and has not suffered losses as a result. Anyone like that out there? Anyone ever been burned by not quarantining new fish?

Dave

[ALEXIS]

Dave I am not here to debate with you. I just simply stated the confidence level of two breeders in the stock they breed. I never said do not q-t. If that is what you drew from the post It was not the point I was stressing. If you would like to discuss this further send me a e-mail.

I wasn't speaking to you Alexis, so there's no need to speak off-forum. I got the impression that you were saying that there is no need to quarantine domestic fish that come from Cary. If I got that impression I assumed that others might too. So I was speaking to the rest of the potential readers of this forum. You know the value of quarantine and I assume that you quarantine for 6 weeks and accept any losses as your fault if you get burned by cutting corners. So I was speaking to others that might have misunderstood your post.

Dave

[ALEXIS]

Dave I have received five shipment of fish(when I first got into the hobby) without q-t and never had a problem. The one time I did not q-t and had a problem it was imports. I have since q-t every shipment since that problem. Also for the record I mixed Universal. Great Lakes, and Rocky mountian Discus together on my first 7 shipments and never had a problem. These were all home breed fish with no surprises.

[SLY]

Alexis you were lucky then..there's no such thing as no QT..you took the risk of exposing diseases to your current fishes that you have..IMO hobbyists has only themselves to blame if there's problems because they did not QT.

[Al_M.]

Alexis
Consider yourself VERY LUCKY mixing different breeders fish to gather like that, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I did that. :o
Always quarentine you fish no matter who you get them from, or sooner or later you will get burned gaurenteed.

[DarkDiscus]

Alexis,

By the way, welcome back!

John

[SLY]

Sorry to bring this topic back but I am kinda curious whether people can take criticsm after they post their fish pics in this forum and if they do..what sorta opinions you would like to hear? the fakey "WOW nice fishes" or the honest "these fishes needs extra care" kinda opinions?

I guess this is not the first time that this occured in simply but upteen times. I am sure if you are in the hobby long enough you would be disturbed to see culls/poor shape/big eyes fishes being label as great fishes by your fellow friends here. If that happens all the time..you will never learn..you will think those fishes you have are nice fishes and when you found out about the truth when they aren't growing anymore..the truth will hurt you more. I guess if you didn't like honest opinions from your friends here..state it in your posts when you post those pictures..you will not be hurt. ;) ;D Just my 2 cents. :D

[Don_Lee]

Good point Sly! Now just remember your promise to come back to chat often.......

Don ;D

[Liz_Streithorst]

Sly,

I think it depends on what the person says when he posts the pictures. If its like, "wow, look at my new discus!" responses will be in the "congratulations, nice fish" vein. There is a thread in the special topics section called "discus criticisms". I posted my pics there and asked for honest opinions. People gave me what I felt were honest appraisals of my fish, some by IM some on list. One bit of advice. If you post pics there, come back to General Dixcus Discussion and tell people where you posted the pics and invite their opinions. The special topics section doesn't get much traffic.

Liz

[Elcid]

In response to Al's supply and demand question in general I decided to revive this old thread so we can discuss this important issue. Please note that the revival is meant for discussing the topic as I believe it's a good starting point rather than to flame the posters. Personally, I wish I had read it before I bought so many discus so I encourage people to read it and and re-read it.

take care,
Sandeep

[brewmaster15]

Hi Sandeep,

Boy that was a blast from the past.. That thread started 4 years ago.:) Alot has changed since then.


To answer the initial question from my perspective.... Quality always matters....The problem is everyone has a different perspective on quality.. Which is one of the reasons we have tried to address this is the university...But I have harped on that since we started the university;) :) Defining quality is the hard part for many novices, and over coming misconceptions with knowledge is not a quick trip... I'm still crawling along that path.:D
hth,
al

[lhforbes12]

I don't understand this poll, there is only a single answer available...
To answer the question though, quality matters most to me, I would much rather buy a more expensive discus from Cary, that a cheaper one from a not so reputatble seller.

[Ed13]

Hi Sandeep,

Boy that was a blast from the past.. That thread started 4 years ago.:) Alot has changed since then.


To answer the initial question from my perspective.... Quality always matters....The problem is everyone has a different perspective on quality.. Which is one of the reasons we have tried to address this is the university...But I have harped on that since we started the university;) :) Defining quality is the hard part for many novices, and over coming misconceptions with knowledge is not a quick trip... I'm still crawling along that path.:D
hth,
al

Agree:D


I don't understand this poll, there is only a single answer available...
To answer the question though, quality matters most to me, I would much rather buy a more expensive discus from Cary, that a cheaper one from a not so reputatble seller.

Agree:D

BTW, I'm often searching through old posts like this one and I found them to be really interesting!

[White Worm]

Better to save your pennies and buy quality. They say you get what you pay for......Thats a fact! If you cut corners and go cheap......guess what you are going to get? I think the important thing here is find a good quality breeder that is known for good quality discus and better yet.....known for taking care of the customer in case of unforseen problems. No breeder can ever 100% guarantee how a group of juveniles will turn out when there are so many variables but the good ones make every effort to make things right to the best of their ability.

[Elcid]

Hey Cary, Al and Others:

Please tell me the following is no longer true:

"80% OF THE DISCUS IMPORTED HAVE SOME KIND OF FLAW OR TARNISH TO IT. MAYBE JUST A BROCKEN BAR,CHIPPED EYE,BAD SHAPE,SHORT GILL COVERS,CURVED SPINES,BIG EYES.

COULD EVEN BE HEALTH PROBLEMS NOT ONLY TO YOUR DISCUS BUT TO YOU AS-WELL.

MOST ASAIN'S SELL THE BAD DISCUS TO THE US CUZ WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT BUY THEM ITS NO ONE'S FAULT BUT OUR OWN."

thanks,
Sandeep

[LizStreithorst]

Quality and health are everything. Price is secondary.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Sandeep,



Hey Cary, Al and Others:

Please tell me the following is no longer true:

"80% OF THE DISCUS IMPORTED HAVE SOME KIND OF FLAW OR TARNISH TO IT. MAYBE JUST A BROCKEN BAR,CHIPPED EYE,BAD SHAPE,SHORT GILL COVERS,CURVED SPINES,BIG EYES.

COULD EVEN BE HEALTH PROBLEMS NOT ONLY TO YOUR DISCUS BUT TO YOU AS-WELL.

MOST ASAIN'S SELL THE BAD DISCUS TO THE US CUZ WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT BUY THEM ITS NO ONE'S FAULT BUT OUR OWN."

thanks,
Sandeep


You've been around long enough to answer that Question for yourself I Think... what do you think?;) :)


As for my personal view.. I have no stats to back it up...but I would guess that a very high number of Discus sold meet the above statement... thats not just asian imports ...Thats all imports and domestically bred and raised discus.

I do feel that the majority of Discus sold to the LFS wholesalers in North America for resale at LFS and petshops are Flawed or tarnished as above described.... Thats just based on what I have seen from Wholessale LFS in CT and from other's experiences.

Hth,
al

[Elcid]

Hey Al:

Thanks for your input. You know I'm always hopeful that things get better.

Yes, I do have an opinion on the answer to these questions but you have to remember that it's based on some limited experience of buying a dozen or so fish from Mary. That's why I'm trying to use this thread to tap some of you with vast knowledge in this area so that we can be more educated buyers as the Christmas shopping time approaches.

There is always temptation to buy more discus with so many color varients available. But, I wonder about the quailty and the history of those that are available and if it's worth the risk of introducing some disease that might wipe me out! I've been around long enough to know that the time and effort I've put into my fish I don't want to loose in a day or a week.

thanks,
Sandeep

[poconogal]

Quality and health are everything. Price is secondary.
Couldn't have said it better, myself. I agree with Liz, 110%.

Connie

[fishmama]

Deception BAD...........Ethical Standards GOOD....

We each luv what we luv...just don't be a liar!!!

I think breeders/sellers should be more responsible and we wouldn't have such awful, horrific sights as culls in LFS in substandard environments. A nice, healthy fish is a great catch whether is passes Discus University or not. Information to the potential buyer, for humane purposes if nothing else, is of upmost importance.

Fishmama

[standoyo]

Takes some time to wizen up and Simply is a great place to speed up that process!

Colouring/steroid/hormones are just part of the game to get us buying.

[Responsible colour enhancing without endangering the fish's health to me is acceptable.]

As for the main topic, there is always the problem of fewer than 50-5% [depending on strain] actually looking good to great and the rest ending up in places you and I will be moved to rescue from!

Does quality really matter? Even if it's free it matters! :lol: It takes as much effort raising and breeding duds!

[jballauer]

No doubt that quality matters. Been several years since I kept them, but they are tough to keep. Better to give yourself the best chance of success possible.

[diamond_discus]

Quality always matter ... not just for Discus .. but for everything ...
But then everything has its price and we all have a different value perspective.

[Carolina discus]

It should be the only thing that matters.......I would always take a perfect shaped brown discus over a fully colored 3" LSS or a 8" blue diamond "football" .....until we hold a high standard for ourselves we can't expect various importers to do the same...the good news is we do have several importers (Kenny for example) that offer consistant above average quality....

Peace
Eric

[crimson cross]

When we talk about quality...what is quality to you? Eg, you buy a beautiful round, big red pair of pb with absolutely clean bodies, paid top price for them. What you get when you breed are frys that are peppered. Would this be considered as quality?

[Eddie]

Yes, quality matters in discus just like anything else.

[hedut]

"Money always have eyes". just for your info cheap or expensive u still feed them the same thing but when grow you will see with your own eye cheap one and the expensive:D:D:D:D:p:p:p

[Fons_van_der_Hart]

When we talk about quality...what is quality to you? Eg, you buy a beautiful round, big red pair of pb with absolutely clean bodies, paid top price for them. What you get when you breed are frys that are peppered. Would this be considered as quality?

Well when looking back at this VERY old thread the quality the US market was used to have 8 years ago much lower as it is today. Stendkers were only available in Europe and nobody ever heard of Tony Tan, Jeffrey Yeng and many other Asian breeders.

The quality in the USA went up when Hans decided to move over to Maryland and to become the importer of Stendker Discus. Some breeders felt his breath in their neck and decided to change over to better quality Asian fish. Some ignored what happened on the market and kept on breeding the same sh*t they did before and nowadays most of them are out of business or into raising cows.

The question "what is quality to you" is easy to be answered by following the general rules for judges at championships.

On the other hand there are millions of aquarium lovers all over the world who have Discus in their tank of which most of us will think they're terrible. Those people do love their own Discus maybe just as much as we do and they do think their fish is of high quality.

[Eddie]

The question "what is quality to you" is easy to be answered by following the general rules for judges at championships.

On the other hand there are millions of aquarium lovers all over the world who have Discus in their tank of which most of us will think they're terrible. Those people do love their own Discus maybe just as much as we do and they do think their fish is of high quality.

This is very true Fons, quality for one is not for another.

Eddie