Breeding Discus and now Angels! Help!!

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I recently was given 2 pair of Angel fish which I am going to be breed because I need another hobby like a hole in the head :).--actually it gets the MRS involved... she loves angels.
I got the Discus breeding down just dandy....I'd be interested hearing about what anyone does different with Angels than they do with discus? I'm hoping to pretty much breed them under the same conditions as discus...is this doable?
any info appreciated!
thanks,
al

[Denny]

al

for me angels were easy.i just fed and they did all the work. easy as my jack dempseys. the three pairs of discus i have show no interest and that is good as i have no time for it anyway, but seeing all the others getting spawns does leave an empty feeling :-[

hope you have good luck with your fish. they aren't altums are they?

denny

[Ryan]

Angels are easier. I breed and raise them in tap. pH 7.6, TDS 250ppm, 82 - 84F. Weekly w/c on pairs and adults, daily on juvies. Juvies can be raised at 84 - 86F to get good growth in a timely manner. Brine AT LEAST a couple times a day as fry followed by w/c to remove anything uneaten. Sensitive to ammonia and bacteria. When artificial raising I have problems with bacteria killing babies, can be fixed with Furan 2 or Maroxy. Contrary to popular belief they can withstand major w/c (50 - 100%) as long as temp and parameters match. Angels will not side-feed like discus and need brine as soon as they go free swimming.

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

One pair are altums, They have a planted 50 Gal to themselves.

-thanks, al

[Denny]

sweet 8)

denny

[daninthesand]

Al.

I too am considering breeding angels because at least there is a market for them. You almost can't give away discus here for some reason.

Check out this forum. Is is quite informative.

http://www.awforum.net/angelfish/

Daniel

hee..hee..hee

YA BREW ME TO BUT I DID THEM LONG AGO FOR THE MOST PART ITS THE SAME BUT NO EGG NEEDED ONLY LIVE BRINE.
CARY gld!

pull the slate, flip it upside down+acriflaven :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Discusgeo]

Al I also got some Angels and they are getting close to breeding age. I got my Koi's, Gold Pearlscale, and DD Blacks from Christina at Heavenly Angelfish. Hopefully by next April they will start to pair off. Here's the link to Christina.
George
http://www.heavenlyangelfish.com/

[gary1218]

Personally I think the angel eggs would be an EXCELLENT food source for the discus. ESPECIALLY for the ones I'll be buying :) :D ;D

GARY

[brewmaster15]

Gary,
I'll be sure to make sure those discus fry are properly conditioned for you! LOL!!!

-al

[RichieE]

Al, I'm not crying for you. Those Angels were laying eggs In the bag! ;) I think Beth breeds Angels and Discus. She might have some tips for you. Rich

[JeffreyRichard]

Why don't you come to the source for your info? 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

It's quite simple, actually. In addition to the breeding tank (20 high/29 gallon, though I've used 10's very successfully), you'll need a 2 1/2 or a 5 gallon tank to hatch the eggs (you can use a gallon jar too, but I like the 2.5s better ...), several 10's or 20's to move the fry into, several small sponge filters (dirt magnets are great ... let them age in an active tank if possible), and lot's of Brine Shrimp Eggs. You can successfully raise angelfish on 2 Baby Brine feedings a day ... 3 or 4 are better, but 2 is OK. You'll also need to have a removable spawning site ... piece of slate leaning up against the side of the tank is traditional ... PVC tube that is upright works well too. You'll need an anti-fungacide ... Formalyn works great for me (2 drops/gallon). Meth Blue and Maroxy are also fine.

Once the pair has spawned ... preferably on the intended spawn-site (it is best to have no other objects in the tank so the pair is forced to choose the side of the tank and the slate), move the slate to the hatching quarters. This should be filled with fresh tap water (right out of the tap) at a temperature NEAR the spawning tank temp ... it is NOT critical to adjust the temperature like you do for Discus ... I have raised hundreds of spawns using my fingers to judge the temperature of the water. If I'm within 10 degrees ... that's ok (I know SOMEONE will go beserk over this statement, but it has worked for me ... ). Don't worry about de-chlorinating the water ... fresh chlorinated water helps start with minimum bacteria in the hatching tank. Lean the slate against the side of the tanks and invert the slate so the eggs are facing down.

Once the eggs are in the hatching tank, I add Formalyn @ 2 drops per gallon. I have an airline tube that bubbles air gently around the eggs. Airstone is not necessary. Keep the water at 80 degrees to hatch the eggs.

After 3 days the eggs hatch ... wigglers will hang off the slate. Some will fall ... no big deal. I'll actually shake the wigglers off the slate after 5 days. If the water gets cloudy, I'll do a water change ... I get the temperature at the same temp as the tank, and using an airline tube drip the fresh water into the hatching tank. I usually use a spare 2.5 gallon tank to do this.

On day 6 you should start your brine shrimp hatching ... make sure to set up a rotation so you'll have fresh BBS hatching for each feeding ... plan on 36 hours to hatch the shrimp. I have a setup where I rotate through 3 bottles giving the new setup 36 hours to hatch out. Don't worry about "newly hatched" shrimp ... almost all angelfish fry will accept any sized baby brine shrimp (as long as it's alive ...).

Do NOT feed until ALL the fry are free swimming ... they'll hang at the bottom of the tank UNTIL they go free swimming. Once they go free swimming, start with your regular feedings.

At this point I'll add a seeded Dirt Magnet sponge to the tank (this is where a tank is better than a jar). This way you don't have to worry about changing water very often. I'll keep the fry in the 2.5 for a week, and MAYBE change the water once.

After a week, if I get to it, I'll move the fry to bigger quarters. You'll need to keep thinning or moving as the fry grow ... if you give the fry lot's of room, you can have dime/nickol bodied fry in 6-8 weeks (25 fry in a 20 gallon tank). As the get bigger, add crushed flake for and pellets (good food is available through Angels Plus)

You'll find it very simple ... the biggest challenge is moving the fry and keeping space available.

By the way, the Wild Silvers are Scalares, not Altums. Carefully, you'll send the Angelfish world into a tivy if you start claiming you have spawning altums ...

Good Luck
Jeff

Call me with any questions

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jeff!,


Why don't you come to the source for your info? --if I did that Jeff, how would everyone else here benefit as they did by those that posted to my question! ;) ;D


By the way, the Wild Silvers are Scalares, not Altums. Carefully, you'll send the Angelfish world into a tivy if you start claiming you have spawning altums whoops guess I got altums on the brain..could have been that last batch of homebrew though ;) :).

::)...better get me some altums then...they sound like the heckels of the discus world...I like a challenge!


Thanks for the info Jeff!,
al

Jeff,
Very good info I did it just about the same way.


Another good way to do angels that I tryed and was very fast production was this.
you will need!

2 50 gal tanks.
10 2 gal tanks.
1 good breeding male
8 to 10 egg laying females.
a crap load of slate.
hyde
bbs
maroxy
ETC...

first you fill both 50 gal tanks with the crap load of slate ;D in other words 10 nice spawning sites. Then add all your females to 1 50 gal tank.
After a day or two then add the male to the tank with the females.

In about 1 week or sooner the male will pic his first mate and spawn.

After they spawn remove the slate to the 2 gal tanks that are filled with straight tap water not tank water at same temp. If your tap water is poor you my need to make and store your own. when the spawn is placed into the 2 gal tank I like to had 3 drops of blue to every gal and 2 drops of hyde to every gal. On day 2 I'll do a 50% w/c and a 50% after fry hatch.
sometimes at diffrent times of the year your water will go funny and fry will start dying off. Before you see this your hatch rates will drop. Not sure of the cause maybe high bac loads etc.. Anyways at this point maroxy is used before and after hatching. blacking out the whole tank during hatching will also help at this time.

Anyway after you remove the slate with eggs to the 2 gal tank. Then remove the female and place her in the other 50 gal tank thats filled with slate. Now in a day or two the male will spawn with a new female. Again remove the eggs and the female to the other tanks. when the male finally spawns with the last female add them both to the other tank and start again.

This workes very well you should have spawns every other day.

Ofcourse you willl need to start off with alot of angels so you can find the very best males and females that will do this for you!

HTH
Takecare,
Cary Gld!

P.S brew need some altums?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=4980;st art=15

[brewmaster15]

YES!!!!!!!!


-al :)

BUT WHAT IF YOU BREED THEM BEFORE ME? ;) LOL!

Just say (when) WHEN Your ready!

Cary Gld!

[DarkDiscus]

Al,

Great thread. You are now corrupted by the power of the Angel! As long as you can get Carrie to do the W/C, you will be in great shape!

John

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Cary!...
BUT WHAT IF YOU BREED THEM BEFORE ME? somehow I doubt that will happen oh master breeder ... I am not worthy....I am not worthy.... ;) ;D

seriously though 2 minds are better one.....lets collaborate on it :) think about it...your Vast experience coupled with my lack of experience and pure shotgun luck... we can do it! ;) ;D

TTYL,
al

[JeffreyRichard]

Cary ... are you attempting to breed Altums? I have 10 I've been growing for a while ... I got 6 about a year ago, and obtained 4 more this summer. I will be attempting to spawn them soon ... let me know what your plans are and what your strategy/technique is/will be. Maybe we can get lucky here ...

Jeff

Hi,

i promise you that if you are able to spawn and raise altums
you will be rich in no time!!!!!!

I think that they mature very slowly....
Somebody claimed to spawn them ..after five years of keeping them.

No pictures of the offspring unfortunately!

I've read that somebody croossed altum w/ domestic scalare,
if i remember correct the eggs didn't hatch.

I would like to share what i do to raise my domestic angels:

1 gal jar filled w/ hot water, close the lid let it stay for a day
Place the slate
Aerate and add meth. blue until very dark
Keep at 82-84
On day two shake the slate, so all eggs on bottom
Change as much water as possible twice a day
Once fry are free swimming i move them to a 2 gal container
I change containers every day and make sure that i don't overfeed
Should be able to see pink bellies
Day six from free swimming 10 gal tank.

Good luck to everyone who is trying to breed altums

alex

Sorry Guy's I just found out they are not altums :(



But yes I plan to do some breeding with them.
I also have some comeing from steve at angels plus.

Gold Pearlscale Angelfish
Wild x Koi Angelfish - F2
Koi angelfish - Top 10%
Ghost Angelfish - 50% wild
Silver Angelfish - 50% wild


TakeCare,
cary gld!

[DarkDiscus]

Cary Strong -

Angelfish breeder!

Wow! This should be interesting to watch develop!

;)

John

[brewmaster15]

Bummer Cary,
You got those Altums on the mind also huh? ;) ;D

Okay all... now the only way I can get them off my mind is to get some in my tanks! anybody know a good source please let me know.

Cary, I'll get some for you as well! ;D

thanks,
al

[JeffreyRichard]

A friend of mine imports fish from SA ... I've gotten mine from him. I can check on availability.

You also might want to check with Ned Bowers at The Fish Factory
http://www.unclenedsfishfactory.com/

Jeff

Hey,

Ken at AngelsNorthwest occasionally has altums.
I think belowater.com had a new shipment.

Most of my stock comes from Ken and Steve.
Top quality fish-no exceptions.
Pleasure to deal w/ them

Steve is famous for his kois and i do have his top 10% orange. Very pretty.

If you like wild scalare that is easy to breed,
ask Steve about his wild line.
It takes longer to mature, but no special water is needed to spawn them.

alex