Back To The Wild

Lately there is a trend to go back to the wild with discus.
I don't know the purpose for this.
What are these people trying to achieve?
What ever the reasons, good luck to you.
But have you ever wonder:
1. Why don't they don't cross a race horses with a wild horse to "Hope" for a faster cross?
2. Why don't they cross a gray hound with the wolf and "Hope" for a faster cross?
3. Why don't they cross a blood hound to a jackal and "Hope" for a better nose dog?
4. Why don't they cross a rhode island red to a wild chicken and "Hope" for a meatier bird.
5. Why don't they cross fancy bettas with the wild and "Hope" for a newer type?
6. Why don't they cross fancy goldfish with a carp and "Hope" for a newer type?

I could go on and on with more questions for not crossing with the wild type.
The experts don't go backwards but instead they inbreed.
So why is breeding discus different than breeding anything else.
I apologize if I have offended anyone and ruined your dreams, but people needs to rationalize this method a bit more.

What's your take on this?

I imagine if you went to a community of people where for generations brothers & sisters, fathers & daughters, mothers & sons had been bearing children it would be a good thing to bring in outsiders to strengthen the gene pool.

Dave

[Michael]

To add more genes to the line, so they could do more inbreeding without expressing unwanted genes.

I truly like the way wild fish look...more so than alot of the "newer" type strains.... other people must feel the same way, or they wouldn't buy wilds...
If you keep inbreeding and inbreeding and inbreeding, before you know it you've just got a crappy fish that is exhibiting more bad traits than good...breeding domestic with wilds might be two steps back initially, but it could allow you to take three steps forward...
some of your comparisons are just not logical:comparing a wolf to a grey hound, is like comparing a bald eagle to a pterodactyl(i'm exagerating for the point)...they're far removed by way too many generations, whereas discus are still generally discus...
and breeders of fancy bettas do outcross to wilds, just like many other breeders of fish...

[gary1218]

Dave C. - LOL :) :D ;D

GARY

Geez round head...you almost sound offended at peoples desire to keep and breed wilds. ;)
I agree with David, your comparisons dont hold water for the most part.
reasons for keeping and breeding wilds...
1. freshen a stagnant gene pool.
2. unlock new gene's hiddin in some wilds.
3. develope new strains.
4. Improve existing strains.
5. the sheer beauty of some wilds cant even be compared to some of the butt ugly strains we have today....

Tony

[Aquatic_Design]

Round Head,
You're trying to compare apples and oranges. ???

Some types of discus are so inbred that bringing some wild blood in can sometimes improve the line. It's called outcrossing.
Other people just like the look of the original discus and not all of the man made fancy named discus.

Donna :)

[Ryan Smith]

I think the method is completely rationalized. The answer is simple. Discus have been inbred, backbred, line bred, etc. for years and years. There is no new blood being introduced.

Angelfish are a good example. Koi angels are gorgeous fish, but it took generations of back-breeding and inbreeding to strengthen that gorgeous orange/red color. Somewhere along the line they lost a lot of the more positive angelfish traits, such as parent-raising fry. Also, many koi angels have weak spawns with high cull rates because the genes were in miserable shape. Remember, I am not talking about all koi angels, but it's true of many. When they were outcrossed to wilds, they not only had much stronger babies because of the new blood, but the F1s also exhibited more characteristic angel behaviors, including parent-raising fry, which seemed to be lost.

Adding wild blood back into fish is not a bad idea. By the way, no one is saying that you cannot breed tank-raised discus with other tank-raised discus. There's nothing wrong with crossing a greyhound to a greyhound, or a race horse to a race horse. However, if you breed that greyhound to one of her puppies, and then you breed one of those puppies back to its grandmother, and then breed one of it's puppies to her older siblings... eventually don't you think you'll run into some problems? This is what has been done to a lot of the discus varieties you see. You have to bring in new genes from somewhere.

[daninthesand]

Roundhead you raise some very valid questions.

Its all about genetics. When we selectively breed fish, dogs , cats or even humans ( :o) we try to bring out traits that we as the human judge decide what it is WE like. Nature does this as well, but does it by natural selection. I would hazard a guess that a strain of PB discus that were brightly coloured with no stress bars would certainly die out quickly due to predation in the wild. No camouflage. Basically a fish swimming around with a neon sign on it saying EAT ME.

So we decide that we like orange fish and breed for it by crossing brothers with sisters etc as Dave_C said.

I personally have seen this in human population as well. I worked in Saudi Arabia where the old world ways still exist. Saudis used to travel around in bands and married within their clan. Because of this they married cousins or other even closer relatives. To this day it has caused serious problems. I worked in the Intensive care units and believe me they have a shallow gene pool. We had babies born with heart anomalies that are present maybe 1 in 100,000 in the western world. In Saudi you see them 1 in 1,000 or even less. It all boils down to intermarriage bringing out less desireable traits.

In the case of discus all the inbreeding is bringing out desireable traits but also undesirable ones. For example, the blue diamond, althought it is beautiful in its pure blue colour, it appears it has a tendency toward HITH. Possibly a nutritional uptake deficiency. Who know for sure. Or the PB strains tend to mature faster and hence may possibly inhibit their potential to get very large. All these examples show that inbeeding is not always a good thing.

By introducing some wild blood back into the domestic population, you strengthen the genetic makeup of the fish (sometimes called "hybrid vigour")and hopefully can still maintain the desireable characteristics you are looking for.

I too love the look of a qualtiy wild discus. And I also love the domestics. Can you Imagine an all red fish with a single black heckel-like stripe! I think it would be awesome. This could only be achieved by introducing wild with domestic.

I hope you see my point.

Daniel

Heck would'nt it be neat to see this........

[daninthesand]

or this....

[daninthesand]

or even this......!!!!!!

you can get all of those with a good waterproof marker, dan...now go clean that ink off your fish ;D

[daninthesand]

Ha ha ha. I WISH I had a fish that looked like that even without the marker!!!

[Denny]

i'll hold out for the one with 3- x's ;D
denny

[Ryan Smith]

Dan, I see you are one of the select few who owns the elusive "Super Red X Marks The Spot" discus :)

[daninthesand]

with too much inbreeding you get very strange results sometimes...like this flounder discus...

[daninthesand]

or worse!!!

[Lynn]

look out!
Dan's outta control with photoshop!

Round head...the wild strains will add back to the gene pool, and I think its important to preserve them as disctinct species too. Someday they may not be there! :(

[Denny]

dan,

can i get one from you to cross to my butterfly discus?

[Denny]

and one to pair with my flowerhorn/ discus cross too please

denny

[jim_shedden]

Lyn : I agree ..............
Dan : You have too much time on your hands.........didn't I see on of those on aquabid?

Jim

[korbi_doc]

:jester: :jester: :bounce2: :bounce2:

ROTFLMAO DAN, THAT IS TOO MUCH!!!! the color is great, just what I want in my new wilds, hahahahahaahaha!
But,prefer the original without the additives!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah!!! you all have too much time on your hands, & I'm still
LMAOROTF..................Dottie ::) ::) ::)

[limige]

dan, is the second one a cross with a largemouth bass?
lol

[daninthesand]

yes, too much time on my hands. thats why I have time for discus.

In case anyone is wondering where i got the photo from it is attached below unretouched. It can be found on the "below water" website, the original source for this photo.

http://www.belowwater.com/fish/discus.html

Apparently this is a WILD CAUGHT fish. The mother of a breeding WILD pair. So there is something to be said for wilds maybe after all.......

Daniel

[paulmat]

Dan

NOW THATS A HECKLE CROSS :o :o :o :o

Paul :guitarist:

Wow! I am feeling some heat now. My post was intended for the serious breeders not the photoshop expert. Any fool can manipulate and breed an image on his pc.
Everyone wants to think that our modern day discus are grossly inbred. I challenge you all to prove it. I want to see it in writing. I want to see your fish traced back to the original cross.
If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will.

I have too much respect for this forum so I'll stop here to prevent Ole Brew from another headache.

Peace and
Good Luck.

[daninthesand]

Wow! I am feeling some heat now. My post was intended for the serious breeders not the photoshop expert. Any fool can manipulate and breed an image on his pc.
Everyone wants to think that our modern day discus are grossly inbred. I challenge you all to prove it. I want to see it in writing. I want to see your fish traced back to the original cross.
If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will.

I have too much respect for this forum so I'll stop here to prevent Ole Brew from another headache.

Peace and
Good Luck.


Peace and good luck?!

I guess i fail to see the peace offering in that post. Foolish me.

roundhead?!?!? What gives? No sense of humor or what? Your questions were responded to directly. No need for personal attacks.




I too love the look of a qualtiy wild discus. And I also love the domestics.


Where in that statement do I suggest I don't like domestic discus?

Any serious discus breeder would take it for granted that too much interbreeding is potentially harmful. Its basic genetics. Plain and simple. There is no need to prove it here. Read ANY genetic textbook or take ANY university level genetics course and you will get your proof. Do a little reading and you will get your proof. And a little more reading of the previous posts and you will see that people might have opinions on that as well.

By doing a little photoshop manipulation I was TRYING to illustrate my point. A desireable looking fish (my opinion of course, but in my tanks, its really the only opinion that matters.) that would come about by breeding a domestic discus with a heckel to achieve the prominent 5th stress bar. You got any domestic heckels lying around? If you do I'll buy 10 please.

I guess I got a little carried away by TRYING to illustrate potential problems with inbreeding. Just having a little fun, but addressing your questions just the same. Oh well I tried. The last picture I posed above, in case maybe you missed it, is quite an awesome looking fish. IMO. And guess what...its WILD...bred by good ole' mother nature. Not bad for a foolish old broad.



I hope you see my point.



Nope. Missed it by a mile.... ???

Daniel

While your post may have been intended for serious breeders, the question showed that you are not one yourself. Ask any breeder how they developed a yellow fish, and how they attempt to fix the strain and they'll discuss the various methods of inbreeding employed. The question is naive in my opinion. Are you suggesting that inbreeding is not a technique used by breeders? Or are you accepting that it's fact but demanding proof?

[jim_shedden]

OOOOCH David...............I like them all but I must admit some of the "new Caught" wilds are absolutely outstanding. I have an empty 50 Gallon right now and it will house wild discus in it someday.............preferably Tefe Greens. Don't get me wrong , I really enjoy the new varieties but there is something about a wild that tells me that this planet isn't too far gone ...yet.

Jim

The comparisons listed... wolf & dog etc. make me wonder... What exactly is so genetically different between a tank-bred bright yellow Discus and a wild Discus? If not for inbreeding to create the yellow Discus wouldn't they be pretty much the same fish? So I'm confused by the question, either introducing wild Discus is unnecessary because the genetic makeup of wild & domestic fish hasn't changed as a result of captivity or it makes sense because the makeup has changed. And since wild Discus are inherently strong fish since they are typically adults and have been able to fend for themself then introducing those genes into your breeding program must make some sense. I don't have to hear the reasons from the big-name breeders, I just need to know that they are bringing in wilds on their own for the very reasons stated in this thread. I've yet to hear a large-scale breeder say that inbreeding is not a problem with some strains of Discus or that introducing wild Discus into your breding is bad or unnecessary.

Dave

Dave

[Lynn]

Everyone wants to think that our modern day discus are grossly inbred. I challenge you all to prove it. I want to see it in writing. I want to see your fish traced back to the original cross.
If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will.


Writing??? Discus breeding is not the AKC or UKC!! It never will be. I don't see where you are going.
Why do you think the best wild caughts are sold for a LOT of money to Asia?

One more reason....outcrossing strengthens the immune system....Its one of the first things to be effected in highly inbred and crossbred fish. Its weakened well before any obvious physical defects show through. Some types of discus on the market are "harder to keep" than other types, I believe this is the number one reason why.

There was a study a while back by the Univ. of Singapore(I think) Showing that the gene pool of domestic discus is VERY shallow compared to the gene pool of certain wilds. Which leads me to believe that the wild discus ISN'T being utalized to the full extent that it could be. I think there are alot of new things yet to be discovered....only to be uncovered by bringing in wild blood.

Why cant a breeder just find an unrelated type that matches his type and outcross to those to strengthen his line?? They do....all the time. But IMO this only delays(and not for long in a genetic time frame) the need to outcross to wild.

Tony

[DarkDiscus]

1. Why don't they don't cross a race horses with a wild horse to "Hope" for a faster cross?
2. Why don't they cross a gray hound with the wolf and "Hope" for a faster cross?
3. Why don't they cross a blood hound to a jackal and "Hope" for a better nose dog?
4. Why don't they cross a rhode island red to a wild chicken and "Hope" for a meatier bird.
5. Why don't they cross fancy bettas with the wild and "Hope" for a newer type?
6. Why don't they cross fancy goldfish with a carp and "Hope" for a newer type?



My first thought here before reading all the other thoughtful and insightful responses is this:

1. They DO breed racehorses with arabians to attempt to rejuvenate the bloodlines and make better horses. Maybe they are not 'wilds' but the problem is that most true wild horses today are very inbred, due to a small population.

2. Don't know that much about greyhounds, but I'm pretty sure that there's enough of a breeding base in the breed that they can remain healthy if bred properly. An no one has advocated breeding greyhounds brother to sister or parent for 10 generations to fix characteristics, either...

3. I'm pretty sure you can't breed a jackal with a dog as they are different species. Maybe you could hybridize them...

4. Wild chickens are FAR different from today's birds... They have been bred for physical characteristics. The only major differences between wild discus and domestic are color, patterns and attempting an improved body shape. You can go back to the original without losing a LOT of the gains made by breeding. This isn't so with chickens. Plus Rhode Island Reds are bred primarily as egg layers - not for meat.

5. & 6. I would think that breeders of goldfish and or bettas WOULD utilize the wild strains to attempt to improve upon their bloodlines. I don't know enough about them!

Thanks for an interesting and thought provoking topic!

John

[tango0806]

It's gentics, outcrossing and back crossing improves, strengthen and creates better breeding. I have had Discus for many years never had wilds but over the past 6 months or so I have become more and more interested in them. Eventually I plan on having a tank of wild caught Discus. I recently read in a magazine that despite the amount of Discus caught in the wild the population has not shown any significant decrease over the past 40 years or so. David in New York where are you on this subject? How about some input from one who specializes in wilds?

John & Kathy G

[wildthing]

I think most of the reasons for outcrossing with wild stock have been well stated above.
millions of square miles of the Amazon ( as far as fish are concerned) is unexplored still. Fishermen know where to go to the nearest point to find the fish that are in demand . Looking for new varieties requires expensive trips to unknown rivers without any guaranteed results, but they are surely out there, New species & variants of other fish, animals, insects & plants are being discovered annually. It has been noticed that whenever a new hydro project is completed on the Amazon Discus are one of the first species to thrive in the newly created environment.
The single & by far the biggest threat to all wild species of animals in the Amazon is loss of habitat, not fishing.

DW

:)

"Wow! I am feeling some heat now" <-- are you sure that isn't just embarassment??

"My post was intended for the serious breeders not the photoshop expert." <---i doubt any serious breeders would even bother to address your post, they wouldn't be able to stop laughing long enough to do so...

" Any fool can manipulate and breed an image on his pc."<---- the pictures were posted to try and illustrate a point...

"If you don't see where I am going with this, you'll never will." <--- I'm not a geneticist, but I have enough of a basic understanding to realize that you're talking out of your *ss....it's sad that I'll never experience the enlightenment of this advanced knowledge you claim to possess... ::) ::) ::)


thanks for a good laugh, dan (flounder discus) ;D

[Denny]

i think i'll gdawc- antone else? ;D

denny

Roundhead ??....where are you??....c'mon, no more hit and run posts! Im not looking for a fight...I would just like you to explain some of the comments you made. This is a great topic.
You cant just make statements like you did, then get mad and storm off in a huff >:( because you recieved some static. you just make yourself look foolish. Your statements imply that you know something we dont?? Please share it with the rest of us.

Tony

David,
I'll talk to you nicely.
Please leave out all of your bias reasonings may it be an economic strategy or personal preference for the "Wild and Home Grown" fish.

First of all, I am not dishing out personal attacks.
Secondly, what is there to be embarrass about?
I am no PhD in genetics, but my feet is still wet in this field.

I made a challenge to see proof of anyone's so called grossly inbred fish. All I get is a generic UKC/AKC comparison from a "Nobody". It doesn't make any sense to me when people make these outrageous prejudice claims about inbreeding and can't back it up. Ever study the peds for a winning dog or horse. The prior generation looks like a cross but look deeper. You don't need a club to register your fish. All you need is a book and a pencil to record the history of your family of fish. Hell, you don't need a stinking camera with photoshop to keep record. Just mark all of your fish. "Marking fish" is whole new topic.

My topic was not intended to go this way but I have a perfect story to relate to your inbreeding fear. Take it any way you want.
I have a friend who was an old high school professor. He has two types of discus for more that 20 years. He was the one who got me interested in teh fish. These two types are the common brown and the original Wattley T. He keep these two type going all this time from a single pair without introducing any new blood. He has never even cross them together and they all look identical to type; like clones. They eat the same and chit the same. To this day his fish are big and healthy as a horse.
Here is the secret of inbreeding if you care to know. Very simple.

1. Have a goal and stay with it.
2. Brother x Sister and line.
3. And most important is selectivity.

He only keep fish to his standard and projected program.
If they missed a meal, he cullem.
If they turned dark for a few minutes, he cullem.
If they constipate, he cullem.
If they swim alone, he cullem.
If they eat fry more than 3 times, he cullem.
If they have a different color or pattern, he cullem.

I thought he was ruthless when I was a kid. But since I passed his class, I know he is a professional. And I bet my life that some of the hardcore breeders are like this.
I could point out a fish and he can tell me about the breeding and show it on paper tracing it back to the beginning.

So you can tell me whatever you want about the negative affect from inbreeding, I will not believe you unless you have walked the walk.

Believe it or not, the ******* sprays my whole body from head to toes with disinfectant every time I visit his place just because I have discus.

Lane,

Show us the way. Take the fish you received from Pompadua Discus and trace the family history for us. If you can't do that, then take any fish you currently own and trace its history for us. In all cases your tracing will end with the purchase of the fish from the breeder as that information will not be made available to you.

And no one is speaking of a fear of inbreeding. They're speaking of the value of improving the genetic makeup of a fish that has been subject to inbreeding by introducing wild fish into the breeding program. Why is Wattley doing it? Why was Jordan? Mike Wells got some, so did Cary. Why are all these breeders doing it? They're not answering your question, we're just giving our opinions. I agree, none of us are breeders with any real knowledge. Apparently neither are you so our opinion is as valid as yours. We support our opinion that introducing wild blood into a Discus breeding program is a useful thing to do by pointing to largescale breeders that are doing. How do you support your opinion that it's unnecessary?

Dave

[Ralph]

I don't know if you need another nongeneticist's opinion here, but...

My understanding of inbreeding problems is that it is more a question of percentages. A recessive trait may show up in one birth in 10,000 in a mixed gene pool but could be one birth in 100 or even 1 in 4 with inbreeding. Even undesired dominant traits (such as webbed toes in humans) show a much higher occurance in "closed" populations. That is not to say that inbreeding is wrong or that healthy beautiful fish can't be achieved, but like your professor, the cull rate will go up. And some undesirable traits such as poor parenting skills. infertility, etc. won't show up until adulthood.

David,
Look on the bright side a bit will ya.
Why be so negative about everything.
If I could trace the line back to a So. American river, you will then ask me to trace those fish back further to the lake which feeds that river.

Don't you know already that we have more control things which are in our possession and of our creation.

Last but not least. No disrespect for anyone. Out of all the names you mention, to my knowledge only Wattley is the key example because he created his own well established strain. Good luck to all the dedicated discus breeders. I know that Cary is on a serious mission to break new grounds. And again I'll bet my life that any future well established strain from these guys will be heavily inbred. The strong lines and the weak lines being produced will show you the difference between a breeder with good eyes for selectivity and a breeder with great eyes for selectivity.

I understand exactly what you are talking about refreshing the gene pool. So I would like to ask you a couple of simple questions concerning this "Mad" idea of going back to the wild. Given the fact that a wild fish is more likely to be genetically diversed than a domestic fish and that any cross with a wild fish will produce a higher variance than a cross with a domestic fish. True?

1. What is your goal when you put a specific Dom. Male and Wild female together?
2. Do you have a goal or just crossing your fingers and wishing for something extraordinary to appear?

Reminded me of a story when a Hill Billy crossed a man-eater pitbull to a wolf hoping to create an ultimate fighting machine. He pitted this cross to a highly inbred pit dog and lost a bucket of money. He still kept these worthless dogs and they ended up killing his wife and kids. This guy did not have a brain nor any vision, he only had greed and wishful thinking

Peace.

There's no doubt that your professor's breeding program could be stretched out to the absolute max with such a huge cull rate.
I was under the impression that we were talking about "the general population" of discus we have on the market today?? Or that you were refering to the "average proffesional breeder"?? There's no way in the world that a proffesional breeder could run a program like that and still pay the bills at the end of the month. Oh....wait!...unless he sells all the rest of the genetically inferior, "HIGHLY INBRED CULLS" to the general public and keeps the genetically superior fish for his own breeding program. This is not rocket science were talking about here Lane....look a bit futher than your professors back yard...at whats happening in the real discus world. How do you think you got ahold of all those sub-standard fish from Pompadou??

I'd be interested to know at what generation your friends fish are at...and what the cull rate is today vs. 20 years ago. Im sure that Info is right at his fingertips.

Tony

Look on the bright side a bit will ya.
Why be so negative about everything.
If I could trace the line back to a So. American river, you will then ask me to trace those fish back further to the lake which feeds that river.

There is nothing negative about asking you to provide the same evidence that you asked us to provide. I will accept whatever information you can provide about the history of the fish that you received. I highly doubt that you will trace it back past it's parents (if you can even get that far), let alone a South American river.

The premise of this thread is that you have information that debunks the theory that introducing wild Discus into your breeding program is a good thing. So far all you've done is ask us for details, you've provided nothing. I think you've got nothing to give but innuendo. Rather then giving examples of other animals why don't you limit your discussion to Discus and explain why adding wild Discus to a pool of domestic Discus is a bad or unnecessary thing?

Dave

OK,
You rule David.
I am such an idiot for not giving you the credit you so rightful deservce.
Good Luck with those beautiful wild brownies.
Can't wait to hear about those super dupper hybrid brownies hitting the market. If they look and act good, I'll pay top dollar for them too. Really! But we all know it ain't going to happen. Maybe inbreed doms with inbreed brownies, but nothing straight from the wild is going to make an impact to the discus world.

Common people, this economic strategy has no leverage.
Just an excuse to steer people away from the poorly breed and treated fish hitting the market lately. Damn, trust me I know about nasty fish.
Its the right source that you got to go to for great fish thats all. Hey, different strokes for different folks. You like brownies, more power to ya. But don't spread lies about this idea that the wild brownies are a must to refresh the doms grossly inbred gene pool. Again good luck, you're going to need it.

Dun here. Its winter steelheading for me now.

Thanks for enlightening us with so much information. Once again it was a learning experience. I don't know how I can "rule" or deserve credit for asking you to provide the genetic heritage of your fish after you asked the same of us. Or for asking you to provide some information about how introducing wild Discus into a breeder program is wrong or unnecessary. That doesn't make me right since I don't say that you're wrong, just that you're stating things as fact and providing no evidence.

Dave

p.s. I stand corrected. In my last post I did say "I think you've got nothing to give but innuendo." I guess I was right about that. Thanks. I rule. Yay.

LMAO...You'll never change R.H.

Im ..."dun" here also....I think I'll go beat my head on the sidewalk.....

Tony

[Lynn]

I made a challenge to see proof of anyone's so called grossly inbred fish. All I get is a generic UKC/AKC comparison from a "Nobody".

Round head...I may be a "Nobody" to you. But what have you shown us? NOTHING

If you wish to name-call, please go elsewhere!

Lynn

[Ryan Smith]

Well, this certainly was an interesting 4 pages of posts... but once again, the thread was started by someone who already had his mind made up about the subject in question, and he's not going to change his mind. Thanks to everyone for you input on this subject. A lot of great answers were given and I think we covered the questions that he wanted to cover. Since the last few posts have just been directed at each other, rather than at the topic at hand, I'm going to lock it.

By the way, Lynn, I apologize. That comment should have been edited out.

Ryan