Water Changes in Planted Tank

[murali]

Hi,
As you know many keepers of planted tanks (or Dutch, or natural) talk about replacing only small amounts of water. Their tanks are probably general community tanks without discus.

Could those who have planted tanks and discus please comment on their frequency of WCs.

Thanks,

Murali :-*

[Ralph]

Hi Murali,
Welcome to Simplydiscus, and you have a great question.
I don't have an exact answer for you but I can talk around it and maybe give you a better idea of what percentage of WC you should be doing.
The difference between the dutch style tanks and planted discus tanks is a matter of priorities. The dutch tanks, which I really admire, are set up for plants, they use massive CO2, fertilizers, lighting, etc., things that in excess are detrimental to discus. Many of the dutch tanks that I have seen, have no fish at all. A planted discus tank is set up for healthy fish which sometime means sacrificing a little in plant care. Some plants can't handle higher temps. Some plants won't grow as fast or may not have the vibrant colors. Your discus have priority.
Back to WCs, I do daily changes instead of massive weekly changes for several reasons, but mainly for consistency of water quality. Most of the WC is done by vacuuming the gravel. I use foods that don't foul the water too much. It is also a factor of your fish load and the age of your fish.
What I am trying to say with all this is do the WCs necessary for the health of your discus (they talk about this in the Water Quality section) and work around the WCs for your plant health, such as adding fertilizer after the WC, etc.
There has been some talk that with plants, WCs aren't needed or at least not as often, which sounds plausible but I haven't seen any proof of this.
I hope I haven't made things more complicated for you.

[Mick M]

For my 75gall planted discus tank.

Substrate:- Laterite/ sand mix, approx.40mm depth.
Heating:- 300w heater set to 89F.
Lighting:- 4 strip lights, total 108watts, 12 hours day.
Fertiliser:- Leaf Zone 35ml added every two weeks.
Water changes:- 20gall per day (min).
Plants:- Plant collection from specialist mail order co. about 20 different species.
Fish:- 4 discus, 20 cardinal tetras,12 black tetras, albino bristle plec.
Water:- RO water with RO Right, pH 7.0, GH 4.0, KH 1.5, Cond 425us. NH3 0.0, NO2 0.0, NO3 5mg/l
Filter:- Internal sponge filters (5) run by powerhead.
Comments:- The discus are now 12 months old and haven't grown as large as perhaps they could of by now. The plants grow like crazy and I remove one full bucket every week.
I would prefer to only house adult fish in a planted setup in future, other discus in bb tanks have grown quicker.

[murali]

Thanks Ralph and Mick for making this a Canada/USA/England roundtable.

I appreciate the details you have both given.

I have my adult pair in a natural aquarium and am about to inject carbon dioxide in a serious way. Before I do so, I may move the discus to a BB tank that I am just now setting up. I am thinking and thinking and...

It is all about balance isn't it? Not only in your tank but in your life. Now there's a topic, and given Ralph's signature statement he would be the appropriate moderator.

Thanks guys,
Murali

[Ralph]

You sure got my number, I love spending time on those big questions. I try to focus on fish while I'm here though.

You are exactly right, it's about balance, balancing the needs of the fish with those of the plants, and also the needs of your tank with the time and effort that you can devote to it.
Let us know what you decide though, either way.

[dm]

I have a planted tank with my Discus. As Ralph said, you Discus come first so you have to make some considerations when having both. Unfortunatly Discus and the plants like different things. Discus like pure clean water and plants like fish waste and the minerals in the water. I use mostly R/O water and do water changes every 2 to 3 days. It seems like a good compromise. The fish are doing great and the plants are growing albeit slow. This works for me. I'm not sure how others do it.

[ChloroPhil]

Hmmmm.....quite a question Murali....

I would say it all depends on the total mass of plants in your tank and what species plants you have. I know quite a few people who keep very vibrant planted tanks with Discus, as well as planted discus tanks (notice the difference). While not 100% across the board the vast majority of people I know do 50% weekly or bi-weekly water changes. Worth mentioning is when I do a water change I change only water and do just a superficial substrate vaccumming to clean up junk in the foreground so I don't see much mulm in the front.

If you have a tank with high lighting and fast growing plants then I would recommend a weekly regimen. First, because your plants are outgrowing any nutrients, *not* pollutants :), being put into the water column. In this case the 50% water change is merely to "reset" the nutrient levels in the tank rather than an attempt to "clean" the water, that's the plants' job. I've kept fish in a tank with a high plant mass with daily nutrient supplimentation doing 25% water changes every other month.

If you've got a tank with sparse planting and/or slow growth then smaller and less frequent supplimentation will solve your problems better than frequent water changes. Constant changes in food levels [Water changes] will challenge a plant's ability to absorb nutrients in the water so greatly that they often die, or at the very least merely survive and don't grow well.

When I'm getting a tank ready for show, or am battling a water borne algae I do twice weekly WCs of 50%. Each WC I do I suppliment enough to get my levels near the high end of where I want them to be to keep the plants revving in high gear. My aquarium never looks better, and my fish are never in better health, than when I'm on this regimen. It's something to think about and is probably the best compromise.

[chavez720]

Maybe a difference of opinion. In my experience good healthy plant growth equals healthy fish. So my main concern are the plants! Provide plants with optimal growing conditions and there will be no problem with the fish. This has been shown many times with members of other list that I have seen - APD, Aquabotanic. Most have never had to medicate in years and have fish spawning in their tanks with minimal waters changes.

Personally I do 50% water change once a week (OK sometimes every two weeks). The water comes straight from the tap - just adjust temp no chems added. In fact I am adding what some consider pollutants - Nitrate and Phosphate - two to three times a week for good plant growth. If not these levels drop to zero very quickly and results in poor plant growth. My fish were doing great prior to the ice-storm of 2002! In fact I believe due to the fact that my discus were kept in a fully planted tank they survived 2.5 days without power.

Just a different way of keeping discus!

[Ralph]

Glad to hear that everyone survived, I can't imagine going three days without power, and I don't mean just for the fish.

No one is saying to ignore your plants. Whenever I think about adding or doing or setting up something in the tank, I have to evaluate how it will affect the discus and the plants. And I don't think it means a lot of sacrifice, either way, but you have to be careful and moderate in your applications Does that make sense? I always know what I am trying to say, sometimes it doesn't make it to my posts though.

[ChloroPhil]

Ralph,

It does make sense and I think I understand what you're trying to say, and it's very understandable. Having been a fish keeper for many years it was strange at first to be adding Nitrate and Posphate to my planted tanks. It went against years of experience but turned out to be the right thing to do. :)

One thing in keeping plants in an aquarium. Moderation is great as long as the levels of nutrients and supplimentation meet the requirements of the plants in an aquarium. If levels are insufficient the plants will die and pollute the system even more.

Popular (mis)conceptions regarding the sensitivity of Discus and the toxicity of supplimentation steer many fish keepers away from planted aquaria entirely. I can say with complete certainty that I have never seen a Discus, or any fish for that matter, suffer from supplimentation when kept at the appropriate levels.

An appropriate comparison would be that of a Reef Aquarium. Many people today are keeping reef tanks without a traditional filter. This method uses only a Protein Skimmer, some sort of sock to catch physical debris, and large amounts of live rock to provide biological filteration.

Every day people add salt, calcium, and other chemicals to create an environment which best stimulates growth in their corals and invertibrates. Vigorous growth of algaes, corals, and nitrifying bacteria use up the chemicals added to the tank and provide sufficient filteration to merit the absence of a filter.

-Our plants are just like the coral and algae!-

They are our biological filter, only in this case they don't leave any chemicals in the water which would necessitate a WC.

-By adding a little extra nutrients to the water we allow the plants to absorb greater amounts than we add.-

The second one adds a plant to an aquarium one must consider the whole aquarium as a living system rather than just a place where fish reside. Those keeping plants are truly Aquarists rather than Fisk Keepers.


This has been a Public Service Announcement by your friendly neighborhood Plant Nut. :)

[Ralph]

I'm sure glad you post here on Simply. That is exactly what I was trying to say, only it is better.
It is a completely different mindset to create an enclosed system (well...not a completely closed system) and then monitor it, as opposed to the human having sole responsibility for taking care of every need of the fish. And we all have been conditioned to think that discus are whimps and the Amazon is a some kind of resort where the fish are pampered.
Do you think that that a filterless tank is a practical possibility?

[b3dlam]

Bioman has certainly summarised the aims and the general concensus of many aquarists. The main angst and discussions come from 'how to' aspect of the hobby.

Ralph: IMHO, a filterless tank is certainly a real possibility. This statement is dependent on a few criterions though. The most important one being the uptake of nitrogeneous compounds are being consumed faster than the production by the bioload. In situations where you have to add nitrogen into the system (you do this if nitrate does not accumulate), you can safely assume that the fish wastes (ammonia etc) is immediately consumed by the plants.
I am considering removing much of the biofilter in my cannister filters so that the flow rate can be improved. The only part i would keep is the mechanical filter section (ceramic rings).

my two cents
:D

[Ralph]

I have about four empty 10 gal tanks. I think I might give it a try (with tetras of course). I've never seen any info on how much ammonia a fish gives off nor how much a plant absorbs though both figures would vary with type of fish and type of plant. And then there is still the nitrifying bacteria in the tank. Maybe it would be best to locate an aquarium book from times before biological filters. But then, they didn't have the expertise with plant needs that we do now. I guess I need to do some research. Maybe I'll just set up the tank, I can monitor ammonia levels and know if it will work or not before the fish are killed.

[dm]

Ralph, I have a magazine that explains about natural tanks without filters. They are possible but extremely delicately balanced. I'll see if I can get it to you if you want. There are some great thoughts in this thread. Bio has made some excellent points in his thread. We just better make sure the BB people don't catch us talking like this. They might block the door from the outside so we can't get out. :)

[Ralph]

Hi Dale,
It is a little like throwing out the refrigerator to get closer to nature. Hopefully I won't end up with food poisoning. It is more of an experiment, I don't think I'll be selling all my filters anytime soon.
The magazine sounds great. Could you mail it to me, and I'll mail it back with your expenses? Or I could meet you at your work at quitting time. Whatever is convenient for you. Email me.

[ChloroPhil]

Ralph,

Check out "The Ecology of Planted Aquaria" by Diana Walstead. Her tanks are all filterless and supposedly do pretty well, though I'd certainly never dare to house a discus in one.

Filterless tanks are certainly possible, but it would be much better to have a tank with only mechanical filteration. Most of my tanks get monthly or quarterly WC and I rarely, if ever have changed the filter media, with the exception of the polyester batting that I use in the small tanks to keep the water clear. Any foam blocks may get a rinse 2x/year.

If you do try the filterless aproach make sure you use only fast growers like Rotala, Hygrophila, and Riccia and have plenty of light and CO2.

BTW, thanks for the kind words...the encouragement is needed.

Best,
Phil

[regal]

I have a filterless tank. I got the idea from a very sucessful reef tank I had. What you do is have a long sump and float styrofoam then poke holes in the this and push peace lilly's and pothos. Above these plants you need a very strong light. Also I have in the main tank alot of fast growing stem plants like wisteria, water sprite, and camboda with 2.5 wpg and CO2. I have has 40 cardinals, 6 ottos, a ram, and 4 SAE's for 3 months now with a zero nitrate reading. I recently added 3 discus. Still no nitrates. I have some algae and have been told that adding nitrate and phosphate would reduce the algae but I am uncorfortable adding "waste" to the tank

[ChloroPhil]

regal,


The levels you need are well below anything considered toxic. Ironically the addition of the "waste" helps your plants absorb what the fish put out.

It's funny you should mention your "refugeum" for the planted tank. When i get my fishroom up and running I'm going to have all my tanks running through some plant only tanks as a sort of filter just like in a salt tank. The only better use of cuttings is getting credit at the LFS. :)

[prew62]

I love the way these threads get started. My father kept fish in the 40's he said he used to go to an aquarium store that was owned by a german man who had all planted tanks (even the ones he sold fish out of) and his show tanks had no filters. Dad said they were incredibly beautiful.
I think the key word here is balance. If you look at some of the old aquarium books (Inness) they talk about this. While filters are certainly necessary, if you have the right balance of plants, fertilizer, fish and (snails) your tank should become a biotope and take care of itself. Whether or not this works for Discus is another story.

[regal]

If you are interested do a search on "aquaculture" Here they use hydroponics to culture fish in very high stocking densities. They use a think a type of cichlid. Breeding discus is currently a break even proposition. Something like aquaculture could make breeding discus a more efficient operation.