Why so much anti LFS Attitude???

[JeffreyRichard]

OK BoxerDad, I'm going to pick on your post a little bit, but it happens to be the most recent that regards the LFS with distain, which I've seen way too much of, IMHO.

I don't get why there is so much anti-LFS opinion coming out of the Discus hobby ... ??? ??? ???

Actually, I think I understand why, but I don't agree with it IN GENERAL.

Let me get this out of the way up front ... I have been to certain LFS's where one would be taking their own life in their hand by just entering the shop, never mind buying so livestock from them.

However, I have found there to be more "positive" LFS than negative in my travels. Within 45 minutes of my house are six quality shops where I both have sold to and bought fish from ... wouldn't hesitate to keep doing this.

LFS are the conerstone to the hobby ... this is where hobbiests in general get all there fish, equipment and supplies. AND this is where enterprising breeders sell their wares ... anyone who has a quantity of fish, regardless of species, knows that most must be marketed through this channel (or the wholesale market).

So why the bad rap? I believe that most LFS owners/help basically want to do the right thing ... but most have never had experience with Discus (or other specialty fish). I have found that when I "taught" my LFS how to maintain discus, they are able to keep and sell thriving healthy fish. I put together a "one-page info sheet" I gave to the LFS for them to follow and for there customers to follow ... focus on the basics (water changes, temperature, food, space). After this, the LFS have been able to sell my fish and maintain the quality for long periods of time.

The second point that I believe contributes to the bad rap is that most LFS get their stock from wholesalers ... this is solved by selling locally bred fish to the LFS. Enough said ...

History lesson ... the time line is approximate, but it will give you the idea. During the mid 80's, angelfish were almost wiped out through a contagious plague-like illness that many people think originated in the oriental fish farms. The quality of what you could find in an angelfish was horrorible. However, over time the local breeder managed to fill the void with quality stock for the LFS. Today, quality angelfish are generally available at most LFS ... largely because of the local breeder. We Discus breeders should take a queue from this.

Last, the LFS is a great friend for the serious hobbiest/breeder. By providing quality stock at reasonable prices to the LFS, you can easily establish a relationship where you can get fish, supplies and equipment at greatly reduced prices ... do NOT underestimate this!!! :thumbsup:

So fellow discus hobbiests ... do not bash the LFS, help make them better!

Jeff

[lcs]

Jeff,

I agree. I think it would be great if most of the stock in a LFS came from local breeders instead of wholesalers - no matter what the species. I was just thinking about this yesterday actually. I don't even have my first discus tank yet (but soon, very soon :D) and my husband is already encouraging me to get into breeding and supplying our local pet shops. I know there are at least a couple "serious" discus keepers in my area (one of them right here on this board ;) ) and it would be great if they (we) could help out our local stores.

Of course I'm assuming they want our help!

[DarkDiscus]

When you walk into a LFS you pretty much know within 5 minutes if it is a good one or a bad one. The good ones are great! The bad ones...

I always suggest that you give as much of your business to the good LFS as you can! The bad ones...

John

I agree. Of course there are bad LFS out there. There's bad online pet supply places & bad breeders too. The nice thing about a LFS is that you can see the fish, talk to the store owner (in some cases) and determine whether you want to buy the fish. The prices charged by the LFS aren't unreasonable in my opinion, not when you consider fish deaths, theft by customers, fish replacement, stock turnover and the cost of marketing. I've heard people say that 100% markup is an unreasonable rate to charge on dry goods at a LFS, and that 10-20% would be more appropriate. I doubt there are any breeders on this forum that buy a fish from Asia for $10, pay $3 in shipping to get it here and then turn around and sell it for $15.60. What would be the point? Why take the risk in the first place if the return is so low? I can't believe they would sell such a fish for less then $30 and it would probably go to the average hobbyist who buys <6 fish for $40 each. So the markups are everywhere. Even your favorite breeder is making some big % on the fish they sell.

The online stores definitely markup less, their overhead is less and their volume is huge. They will win in the end and the average LFS will go out of business, it's only a matter of time. What will be left will be the great ones that have found a niche in the market but there will be very few of those. There will also be the Mega-LFS which give the illusion of quality & fair pricing when all they are doing is taking advantage of the ignorance of first-time fish owners. They sell them whatever they can and don't concern themselves with the customer once the sale is made. Convenience is what those stores are really selling... large parking lots, lots of stock and complete packages that you can just pick up and walk away with. It doesn't matter that the goods in the package are cheap and won't meet your needs for long... the average customer shelves the tank in the first 6 months anyways.

And while it may seem like a good thing if only the great LFS remain there are many LFS that have the potential to be great but simply can't compete due to the size of the population that is available to them and the high cost of marketing to that population. But I'm not naive enough to think that online purchasing is the root of the problem, it's just one contributing factor. I've seen LFS owners come & go in my town and there's only been one that endured and had a great store for more then 10 years. All of the others are well-meaning hobbyists that get into it for the love of the hobby and leave because they can't afford to continue losing money. Discus are just one fish that they carry. A tank of 100 Cardinal Tetras will turn over weekly and cost them about $100 to carry. A tank of 8 3" Discus will turn over monthly (if that) and cost them about the same. Why would they place any more focus on the Discus then the Cardinals? They can't, and the profits from Discus don't justify it. Even if local breeders start selling to the LFS they're going to be selling their B & C grade Discus to them. Why wouldn't they? If I'm selling Discus to the public from my home and supplementing those sales by wholesaling them to the LFS who do you think will get the best fish? And who will pay more? Of course the walk-in customer will pay me more then the LFS and I will want to attach my name to the best fish so the walk-in customer will take the best fish. Those that are lower in quality will go to the LFS, continuing the perception that crappy Discus are found at the LFS. That's why the online wholesalers get the fish they get, why would the breeder give them their best fish? The fish & the breeder become anonymous once the fish get to the wholesaler so they send their lower quality fish and sell the best fish to people who will know where the fish came from & are willing to pay top $ for that privilege.

I'm not trying to get up on a pedestal, I've bought online as well. But now that I own a LFS I see a lot of the reasons for the criticisms levied against the LFS. It's a tough racket. It doesn't bother me that most people take potshots at the LFS, most of cracks are earned. But if you completely abandon the LFS they will cease to exist and when you absolutely need something you'll pay through the nose or you just won't find it. Maybe that's for the best, or inevitable at least. I make sure I have what I need in a good enough supply so I am not forced to buy in a hurry. I doubt the average hobbyist does that.

Dave

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
I think the probelm is that most LFS don't want to take the time and invest the money to treat discus in way that promotes good growth and health. Most just throw them into their central filter systems,and don't even test to see if the water parameters/temp are good. Throw in pinch of stale flake and sell them to an unknowing customer. I have worked at LFSs and I have consulted for them on diseases, and I have visited just about every LFS in CT and 90% are terrible as far as anything that requires a little more than ordinary care.

Most would rather sell a few sword tails or goldfish than invest in some dedicated tank space (something that is at premium)for an expensive fish that few but the certified insane would buy. ;D Or they need to justify the space alotment by buying discus dirt cheap from any source they can... and you know what that means for quality.


I have only had one positive experience with one, and it was because the kid that ran the place was a friend of mine and I got him discus hooked.



I think you really need to look at the LFS in General, not just in your area, my experiences on the disease board here and elsewhere make me a firm believer in the LFS being negative impacter on this hobby as far discus go. Hobbyists that lose their first discus are less prone to buy more.

I'll also make the generalized statement that most LFS buy their fish as grade B fish from breeders and hobbyists, or from wholesalers, and charge a ridiculous price for a low quality fish just because it is a discus.

I might as well add to that and make the generalization that probably 90% of all the SOS 's I get on diseased fish originate from LFS or importer/wholesalers, with about 10% coming commercial breeders.


I can say this with 100% confidence that I do not and would reccommend any one buy discus from a LFS, unless you have a lot of experience, plenty of quaranteen tanks, and a good accountant that can get you a tax writeoff for bad hobby investments! ;D ;D ;D Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes with alot of TLC you get a good fish. Most of the time You get a low grade discus or a sick fish.


And Keep in mind , you can never know if the fish you are spending good money on is even going to breed true, or is a cross or the offspring of a mongrel cull., and the LFS certainly won't be able to show the fishes parents. I have said it before and I probably always will....I think you have a better chance at succeeding with Discus if you buy your fish from a reputable breeder or hobbyist,

I agree that their are some good LFS out there, but the numbers of bad ones makes it a risky venture, and one I really can't in good concious reccommend. If you are reading this and you are a good one... sorry to lump you all together.


Sorry to have to disagree so strongly here, but I have spent far too much time helping people with LFS discus to send them more customers. I believe they have a responsibilty to learn about the livestock they sell, or they shouldn't be selling it.

take care,
al

Most of the disease related issues I've heard about come from a lack of quarantine, regardless of where the fish are bought. People seem to think that if they buy their fish from a LFS they don't have to quarantine them. Nothing could be further from the truth. People that buy from breeders tend to be better educated as well and often the breeder will go out of his/her way to ensure that they are better educated. Unfortunately that is typically lacking at most LFS.

Another reason disease issues come from LFS purchases is that some hobbyists "rescue" fish from the dastardly LFS and they buy a fish that they wouldn't accept from a breeder. Or they buy a sick fish because it was on sale. There's no doubt the quality of fish is low but we only reward these stores for bringing in such garbage when we buy the crappy fish.

Dave

[DREW]

For me I love small owner owned and operated by owner stores. They are not in it for the money. I've worked for most in the twin city areas and I have always frequented them. Now as far as discus even the most technical stores in Mn can't take care of them( Only a few have healthy fish). I know what wholesalers they are buyng them from and I wouldn't buy any of them even at half price. I've talked to a few managers and they say the carry them for the varity but they don't sell very well. Most of them are dark and unhealthy and share the same water as the other fish on a central system. My goal is to change them when I get things going. I think the brighter new strains well get some customers hooked on them.

Drew

[BoxerDad]

Thank-You AL.

Not to mention the fact that I get somewhat attached to these little guys and just want to make sure they are purchased by someone with some experience to take car of them correctly.

[Ryan Smith]

There is one pet store in my area who set up an angelfish tank separate from his central filtration system. He brought in healthy angels from a local hobbyist breeder and was selling them for a fair price. I went into the shop many times, as it was next to my college, and I talked to him about the ins and outs of running a shop, the problems he faced, etc. One of his complaints with angels is that he sold very few because they were "expensive" according to his customers.

We are talking nickel-sized angels such as black lace, blacks, zebra veils, blue blushers--all great quality--for $5 a piece. If you order from any semi-reputable angel breeder online you are going to pay at least this much. People were wanting angels for like $1 or $2 because this is how much "other" stores had them from. That's not to mention that in "other" stores they were hanging at the top with clamped fins, gasping, ... So a lot of what goes on is determined, indirectly, by the consumer, not the store.

He talked to me very seriously about setting up a discus setup, similar to his angel setup. However, when I went back a month later, the angel setup was gone, and once again he'd started buying his angels from a wholesaler. They were in one of the tanks on his central filtration system, no longer in their own separate setup. I asked what happened, and he just basically said, "They weren't selling--no interest." So I didn't even bother asking about the discus idea.

Now, this is one of about fifteen pet stores I have visited in the Volusia/Orange/Lake/Putnam/Flagler county areas, and it's the ONLY one where I have seen quality angelfish. In NONE of them did I see discus. Normally when you ask you get the same story--"We used to carry those, but no one ever bought them and they kept dying." The further south you go in Florida, the better the shops are as far as tropical fish go. I've seen some really great quality discus in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale.

But I think it boils down to what will sell, and at price you sell it for. I bet if you could sell 3" discus at $2.99 people would buy them like crazy, especially if they were the right size for their 10 gallon community with guppies, swordtails, an oscar, etc...

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

Don't get me wrong everyone. I Think LFS should be supported, and I think they a good job with most fish, just not Discus.

Maybe I should go into more detail here...

How many LFS are there out there That would go thru the trouble of Quaranteening for weeks before selling new fish.... not many.... Turn around time is too important. So with each additional fish added the chances for disease go
up.

How many LFS will take the time and invest the money for meds to treat for hexamita? worms? protozoan. Every med they used would drive up the cost for the fish.

How many LFS are there that do a 30%-50% WC daily? bare glass tanks, aged water of the same pH and temp? uncrowded tanks? feed a diverse diet?

How many LFS even know the name of the strain they are selling, know a good shape from a bad one, good eyes, take the time to watch the fish to see they are all eating, and not missing the food when they go to eat it.

How many will help you figure out what is best for your discus?

How many out there actually have nice LFS discus (except The wilds)? How many have gotten LFS Discus that died?
Would the LFS fish that you have pass all those quality criteria we often debate here?


I'm not sure this is a fair analogy but, I feel the same away about a dog or Cat. I feel Local pet shops should not sell them, If someone wants one of these animals you;d be better getting them from a hobbyist (owner with kittens) or a breeder.


and I agree with Dave's note here...Another reason disease issues come from LFS purchases is that some hobbyists "rescue" fish from the dastardly LFS and they buy a fish that they wouldn't accept from a breeder. Or they buy a sick fish because it was on sale. There's no doubt the quality of fish is low but we only reward these stores for bringing in such garbage when we buy the crappy fish.

I used to do this, and now I tell them their fish are pure "cr@p" and walk out. If you buy that LFS , it is just rewarding them, which is another reason why I don't reccommend people buy LFS discsus.


I just believe that today, there are far better and safer ways to get discus than a LFS. But if you see a good one , and trust the owner, and want to take a chance ... thats your call.
-al

[tango0806]

I support my LFs, I buy all my supplies and equipment there. I just won't buy a young Discus that has large eyes small body and is swimming around in a tank with it's fins clamped and along with several other species of fish which they have no business being in a tank with. How many Lfs owners know all that much about Discus? Not many and I have stated this before their mark up is very high and it is generally safer and probably cheaper to obtain your Discus from a reputable breeder. I'm not saying that it is alway's the case. I have had some disapointments with Discus from breeders also, but in the end I expect more from a good breeder than I do from a LFS owner that does not specialize in Discus but in many different species that he needs to sell in order to make a living. Last I would not buy my supplies from a Discus breeder that specializes in Discus but not in fish supplies and equipment ;D

John & Kathy G

[DHDiscusMan]

I can't really say that LFSs are bad or good. I think you can easily find both just about everywhere. The problem are as follows:

When buying discus, I think the quality and selection are better ordering from a hobbiest or professional breeder who specializes in Discus. The prices for LFS discus are very similar to prices charged by breeders so the better quality is basically free. Easy choice for me. When buying supplies, equiptment, non-parishables LFS cant come close to the prices that can be had on the internet.

I have researched heaters and AquaClears lately at my LFS (both independant and chain stores) and compared prices against some of the major websites. The problem here is that prices in LFS are frequently 100% OR MORE over the cost of identical items from websites. Who can afford to pay $75-90 for an AC500 when you can get it at BigAlsOnline for $39.99?

I would like to be able to support my lfs, especially the locally owned ones, but I'm only willing to go so far to do it.

It's sad that the availibility of the internet and overnight shipping has hurt some specialty businesses but what that means is that the LFS have to find ways of offering something that the internet can't. Maybe if I start selling fish for store credit I can then use that credit to buy things from LFS but to be honest I don't think LFS can count on serious hobbiests for their core business any more. They need to make their money from people who wander in and want an aquarium, some nice fish etc... not from people who are maintaining several aquariums and raising or breeding specialty fish.

Just my opinion.

Dan

[paulmat]

I support my LFS whenever I can.It's hard for them to be competetive with the lg. discount places on line and catalogs,but sometimes you need it today and not 5-7 work days. right.

My #1 LFS is very eager to learn the proper ways of maintaining the fish I sell him,and passing that info to the people he sells them to,he discourages people not willing to make the effort to take care of the fish they buy.

They often call for info. and oppinions,have listened and implimented suggestions,and have increased thier bus. and have the rep. that this is where locals can go to get nice discus.They feed them right and take care of them right,and sell them to the right people. Heck he has even switched his CBW supplier to Dan.
The reason is he loves discus and I think that makes all the difference.

Like John said you can tell right away when your in a good place.

Paul :guitarist:

[DarkDiscus]

After thinking about all the hours I've spent in LFS and looking at fish and thinking in the years I've been doing this hobby, I would have to say that I would seriously miss having the small business LFS around. I love nothing more than a trip to the LFS where I can wander the aisles and see what's going on in terms of new imports, new strains and fish quality.

Even the smell of a good LFS gets me fired up.

It's all a question of quality. I have seen some GREAT stores and some HORRIBLE ones. I can only think of 3 good plus stores here in CT, though I have never been to the Norwalk Aquarium, which I have heard good things about. And I will drive 2-3 hours to check out a LFS I haven't seen yet.

Only one of these stores carries discus, by the way. They were big and healthy the last time I was there, but they were also really expensive. I would not buy discus at a LFS. But they are still important to me nevertheless.

John

[JeffreyRichard]

Counterpoint, Al ... :argue:

I did a lot of traveling 10 years ago, and used to visit shops in my off-hours (vs visiting the Bars, which I'm sure my wife would appreciate ...). I ALWAYS managed to find at least one decent LFS in every major city I visited. So IMO, IN GENERAL there are good LFS around for everyone ... I'll qualify this statement with a "in or around the larger cities" statement.

It is unfortunate that you don't have any good shops near you ... but I believe that to be the exception. I'll be glad to steer you to some good shops out my way.

In regards to the knowledge/desire/funds to quarenteen, you are right. The LFS is not in the business to hold inventory but to move it. That is why the end-user needs to use good quarentine approach to ANY fish they buy. However, any good businessperson will understand that a certain investment needs to be made to ensure REASONABLY healthy fish
fish losses result in direct $$$ losses (spoilage) poor quality results in loss of future business healthy fish will result in sales; it is in the LFS best interest to treat problems and maintain a level of good conditions
I do sincerely believe that most decent shop owners will do what is reasonable to maintain healthy discus ... keep them off central systems, water changes, right temperature, correct diet.

Will a shop owner maintain the fish as you or I would? Unlikely ... it is not profitable. BUT, a reasonably maintained LFS discus obtained from a quality source will (usually) grow into a reasonable (or better) adult discus IF it is maintained correctly. I had a whole line of Blue Diamonds I created from six fish I obtained through a wholesaler (Al, your breeder male is a decendent of these guys).

What I am NOT saying is that buying from a LFS is better than obtaining stock from a breeder directly. IN MOST CASES, I would rather buy from the breeder. BUT, the majority of fish keepers in this country, regardless of the strain, buy there fish at the LFS. Why not sell to a reasonable LFS, and help propogate the discus hobby? :idea2:

John stated "Not to mention the fact that I get somewhat attached to these little guys and just want to make sure they are purchased by someone with some experience to take car of them correctly." All kidding aside, I hope that there isn't any Simplydiscus Poster arrogant enough NOT to want to share discus with newbies who visit LFS regularly and fall in love with Discus this way. That's the way this hobby works for most people.

Look, the bottom line here is that the LFS is the source of fish for MOST hobbiests, regardless of species (fish, not the hobbiest). We should not go around promoting NOT to buy LFS ... we should, rather, promote SMART purchasing, whether it be from a breeder, wholesaler, hobbiest or LFS.

[DarkDiscus]

Jeff,

I definitely don't blame Al for LFS frustration, though. When I worked in that part of the state a friend and I went on a pilgrimage to find every LFS possible - it was pretty ugly. We hit every place we could find and I found one LFS that I would buy ANYTHING from.

It really is a desolate landscape for LFS in Connecticut.

Maybe we can convince Al to open a good one! I'd go!

;)

John

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
I know what you mean about this....

Why not sell to a reasonable LFS, and help propogate the discus hobby?
and if there is one in a hobbyist area that is a good, and a relationshipcan be cultivated where they are willing to treat the fish in a fair manner than I say great give it a try. I had one such store and hated when the owner decided their wasn't a market. I sold that store 2 inch healthy fish for $5.00 a piece. he marked them up to $29.99 and couldn't move them. I walked in one day and the tank was full of tetras, and barbs, and sharks, temp was way too low, my discus were huddled in corner, and I left disgusted.


For those of you out there that do sell to a LFS, what do you get as a price? , and what do they turn around and sell them for?

I think its important to remember the issue here isn't supporting a LFS, its Discus at a LFS, which probably constitutes less than 1 % of all revenues. You can still support a LFS without buying your discus at one. I have some I support all the time, buying plants and other supplies , just not Discus.

did a lot of traveling 10 years ago, and used to visit shops in my off-hours (vs visiting the Bars, which I'm sure my wife would appreciate ...). I ALWAYS managed to find at least one decent LFS in every major city I visited. So IMO, IN GENERAL there are good LFS around for everyone ... I'll qualify this statement with a "in or around the larger cities" statement--Jeff , I never said there wasn't. But this statement of yours doesn't mean that the "good" shops, had good discus, or would be interested in good discus. They can be a great shop, I have one 20 min from here, has everything at afair price...but the discus are always diseased and marked up phenomenally. I have tried repeatly to talk to the owner, but he isn't interested in buying from anyone but the wholesaler he gets his trops from.

Its a bigworld , what does everyone else here think about LFS and Discus? Its a good topic Jeff, even if I don't agree with everything you posted! :)

-al

[lcs]

I agree with Jeff about being SMART when purchasing fish at an LFS. I try to purchase equipment, meds, etc. at the one I frequent because the owner has always been extremely helpful and most of the fish are in pretty good shape. As for discus...not so much. The ones that are there now aren't looking healthy, which is too bad, because shape is good and the color used to be. I think she would be willing to give it a go at trying with the discus if there was interest.

I would think that it would be good business at a store to educate the customers and sell them quality fish. I worked at a different LFS a while ago and most of the customers appreciated being told about the right way to keep fish. Hopefully those people would continue to have success and want to move on to a more challenging fish like the discus.

Just my $0.02

Lisa

[brewmaster15]

Hi Lisa,
Welcome to our Forum! ...Your $0.02 is always welcome here... and you'd be surprised how much it buys here ;D

-al

[JeffreyRichard]

Its a good topic Jeff, even if I don't agree with everything you posted!


Excuse me???? Not agree .... :o how absured ...

BTW, I do think the markup thing is an indicator about how smart the LFS owner is. The rule of thumb is 3 to 4 X markup ... but that works for low-cost/high volume items. For the higher cost items, 2x or less markup is used by the "successful" shops that I deal/have delt with. I typically would sell discus @$3 - $8.00, depending on size and strain. The shops I delt with would sell the discus for $10 - $25, and they would move. Again, I think this is an education thing.

I think its important to remember the issue here isn't supporting a LFS, its Discus at a LFS, which probably constitutes less than 1 % of all revenues. You can still support a LFS without buying your discus at one. I have some I support all the time, buying plants and other supplies , just not Discus. The problem with your statement is that this presumes 1) Discus are more delicate/needy than other fish, and 2) other fish do not deserve the care that one should give discus. I know what your saying ... Discus are your love, like it is for all of us on the board. However, there are plenty of "other" challenging fish that LFS will sell that should get the same care that a discus gets. I believe Angelfish, guppies and bettas should get the same level of care as discus.

I know, I know, I'm kinda nit-picking with this particular issue ... but I just think hobbiests should be consistant regarding care of fish, whether it be a swordtail, Discus or a Queen Triggerfish. Which is why I say if its not good enough for discus, its not good enough for anyfish.

Hey, how are the pairs doing? Fry yet?

Also, did you follow up with the Altums? I think Altums would be a great topic at the next meeting ... my friend David Lass has a nice colony of 15 Altums (I got my second batch from him) ... hopefully in several months we will have some tales about these fish ...

Jeff

[brewmaster15]

Jeff--
Excuse me???? Not agree .... how absured ...

you'd be surprised at how many wars start over something as ridiculous as a difference of opinion ! :)

BTW, I do think the markup thing is an indicator about how smart the LFS owner Connecticut has some dumb ones then!

The problem with your statement is that this presumes 1) Discus are more delicate/needy than other fish, and 2) other fish do not deserve the care that one should give discus. I know what your saying ... Discus are your love, like it is for all of us on the board. However, there are plenty of "other" challenging fish that LFS will sell that should get the same care that a discus gets. I believe Angelfish, guppies and bettas should get the same level of care as discus I have been advised to plead guilty as charged.... but I would like to plead guilty to a lesser charge... i tend to presume they are not more delicate or needy, just need more attention to thrive, but once you know what that attention entails I think Discus are easy! ;D i can't help but feel that the majority of lfs tend to be a little more forgiving though when it comes to water quality, and disease susceptibility---I know I am presuming alot here!


No fry yet, but the angels are all doing fine. No altums yet either but they are on the list. I have a tank of fish to sell first and some holiday gifts to buy... maybe I should try a LFS one last time?LOL

Take care,
al

[Mike_T]

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where there are several good LFS. I used to sell to one regularly, until they started putting them in tanks with central filtration. Now I sell to only one shop, more as a favor to a friend, and usually I get supplies instead of cash. To give you my answer to your question Al, the markup around here is generally around 200% for local stuff. Discus from the local "chain" store get their discus dirt cheap, around $3 each, so you can imagine the markup there. So if they sell one or two and the other six die, no big deal to them.

Fortunately for me there is the internet where I can get quality discus from a knowledgeable breeder. I can even find out which ones to avoid and which ones get all the repeat business. And it only costs a little more. Small price for a piece of mind and nice discus. Why would I do anything different?

Mike T 8)

[Wolf]

My local fish store experience has been bad for discus. Several stores sale them in the area and only one keeps them in good conditions. The store that keeps good conditions only sells wilds as far as I know.

One store in particular imports his discus, keeps them in a cental filtration system with gravel and sells diseased fish. I purchased my first discus there before I knew any better and spent 4 months treating them for hexamita, tape worms, and columnaris to get them healthy. I go by there when he gets the shipments in and 95% are culls, arrow shaped discus with big eyes. Most have signs of columnaris or hexamita and I have yet to see him feed any of these fish. If you go back a month after he gets them in, you will see the few remnants of stunted and unhealthy discus that survived this ordeal. I have tried to talk to him about how to keep his discus and improve the conditions but he is not interested at all in keeping them healthy just pushing them out the door.

The other store in the area sells Watlley's for $100-150 a peice. They do keep them in bare bottom tanks but they are also having health problems. They don't do frequent enough water changes and they keep locally traded discus right next to the Watlley tank so disease are traded back and forth between the Wattley's and the local stock. I think if you are going to mark up a fish 400% you should at least keep them from being contaminated from other stock. The point in buying Watlley's anyway is to get disease free discus and as soon as they get there they are exposed to other fish with problems. Last time I went in there, the Wattley fish were dark huddled in the corner showing sign of hexamita and stunted growth.

They asked me what I would do to treat the fish. I told him how to treat for hexamita and how to improve their conditions by frequent water changes and feedings but it seems like they don't want to put the time into keeping them heatlhy either.

What can I say but don't buy fish from local pet stores. It's not worth it. I do buy other supplies there but not anymore discus. I learned my lesson the hard way.

[samcatj]

I try and support LFS whenever I find one that sells quality fish and products at a reasonable price. I know that I can purchase on line somewhat cheaper but I feel an obligation to support small business' in my City as they are trying to make a living and the money I spend stays within the City and is turned over many times as they spend it and the next person spends it and so. They also pay local City and sales tax much of which stays right in our City supporting various city programs/activities. I think Carol Roberts being a Justice of the Peace could vouch for that fact.
If you get a chance and come across a good LFS try and support it - even if they may be a little higher. Remember they do not purchase in near the volume as the large chains and online dealers and often there overheard is much higher with there smaller operation.
LFS are no different than many breeders many of whom we already know about. There are good ones and there are bad ones. The bad LFS like the bad breeders are only hurting themselfes in the long run as word quickly spreads about there poor operation of business.


Samcatj

[nalah]

This is a very interesting thread.

Things here are a bit different.We dont have as many breeders for starters.
In my area,we have 2 lfs that specialize...one for marine,one for cichlids. The other 20 or so sell the average garden variety of tropicals,goldfish,etc.and the staff know only the basics."you're buying tropicals..ok,you'll need a heater."

Some will occasionally have a discus or two and thats how beginners get most often caught. something different.

There is only ONE lfs in sydney that has quality stock,quarantines for 3-4 weeks prior to selling them,knows the strains,medicates whilst in quarantine,has seperate holding tanks..the lot. the down side is that they import Wayne discus. so a ss would cost around 80.00,the waynes ss costs you 500.00 AUD.But should they get lower grade discus,they sell them cheap and tell you that the fish you are buying are not grade A.

Sadly,imo - there will always be cons selling for profit rather than quality..that goes for both breeders and lfs.
i've been had by both.

[BoxerDad]

My apologies to all if the heading to my last posting titled

"I got to move em out and I don't want the LFS to get them"

caused such a stir.



That was not my intention,I just wanted to post the fry that I have for sale and figured it would attract attention.

Needless to say it has attracted many potential buyers so I guess I accomplished what I originally had intended to do.


Again my apologies to all.


John Apuzza aka BoxerDad

[brewmaster15]

No apology needed John, you unintentionally started a good thread, and It would have only come up at a latter point in time.

I'm really interested in everyones opinion of LFS and Discus. Any more hobbyist or Breeders out there that can add to this post would be great!

thanks,
al

[April]

My lfs had great wilds. but after time..they shrivel and get hith.
but i get them when they come in the door. and i get the cost price.
they get their domestics from asia and each batch they get a new virus that spreads. they have them on their own filtration system..but i think they spread it with nets or what have you.
but.....they are a great store for getting you in anything you need. they bring in stuff other lfs wouldnt. hobbyist needs. they cater to the serious hobbyists...and they remember your names and what you have and what you bought and who else bought what etc. so great people to have around.
they actually do better than some lfs with discus....but they do buy most thier other fish from hobbyists.and they self import their own fish from south america. so they get some neat fish and very healthy. like all the neat pleccos etc. neer had one die on me yet.
and their wilds are good...as long as you get them out of there pronto.
we need this kind of lfs around that caters to the serious hobbyist.
I know a guy who owns and breeds discus who works for a lfs....and he knows his stuff...think id like to go buy fish and supplies from his store and get advice.
thats it....all the discus phenatics need to quit their jobs and go get hired at a lfs near them. it will solve everything. we can care for them .teach...and direct them to simplydiscus.com and all will be well. whos first?
;D

[brewmaster15]

LOL April :),

all the discus phenatics need to quit their jobs and go get hired at a lfs near them. it will solve everything. we can care for them .teach...and direct them to simplydiscus.com and all will be well. whos first?


You and darkdiscus already know the answer to that one! But he'd rather own that LFS (and pay himself minimum wage)then work for minimum wage at it for the owner of a LFS. ;) ;D

-al

[JeffreyRichard]

BoxerDad ... I'm glad you started the tread. The LFS thing has been a peev of mine for a while, so this was just an opportunity for me to sound off ...

Wolf ... I've got to jump on a couple of things you posted ...
Gravel - gravel in a tank is not necessarily a bad thing. I think the whole issue about bare bottom tanks is way overblown IMO. As long as the tank bottom gets cleaned regularly, or there are plants to utilize the mulm buildup, there should be NO problems. Sure, it is easier to clean a bare-bottom tank, BUT gravel doesn't mean there are problems. We all need to be careful about the Do's and Don'ts ... most are not absolute, but are dependent on other factors. My point is that you shouldn't condeme a tank with gravel in it just on general principle. Disease free - ??? This doesn't exist as far as my research and understanding goes. ALL fish carry "disease" ... gill flukes, hexamita, capallaria, they all exist in fish in some amount. The key to healthy fish is the management of the bad things around them. As long as a fish is healthy (well fed, well maintained, low stress) it is not very suseptable to disease. I challenge anyone breeding fish to prove that there fish are completely disease-free. Good breeders keep healthy fish ... they are not stess and the population of bad things can be managed by the organisms immune systems. OK, I've taken some liberties with what I think is the intent of your statement; that the fish you spoke of were sickly and badly infested with disease ... which is indicative of a poorly maintained environment. But just be careful about the concept "disease-free" ...

I think it's time to start a Top Ten Myths Regarding Discus thread ...

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble and vent ...

Jeff

[April]

well yes for sure...be your own boss. then you can do it all right. just remember though while your playing fishy you still need to turn a profit. ::)
ok so...we're all quittng our jobs then and buying out the lfs right?
one day maybe i will quit grooming dogs and turn it into a fish store. im trying hard to...got the tanks there...now just gotta convince the boss this is a fish store not a grooming salon. so far i have to groom dogs inbetween water changes!! and..no money flying out the door from fish so far....
but...ive amazed to see some of our customers know what discus are!! but none of them so far were into it at my obsessed level . think they just fiddled around with a few.

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
I have been thinking about this LFS-discus thing, and wonder if it might not help if those members of this forum that have a good LFS for Discus near them could possibly take some pictures of that shop, and their tanks, with the owners permission., possibly even post a little info on what shop does to maintain their discus. It might be educational to entrenched people like me, and it may be useful to educate the LFS that take poor care of their stock.

just a thought,
al

[April]

I have the pics already. lol
got the wild ones...and got big als new shipment in with their fish from germany and their nice black gravel on the bottom.
i'll email them to you. with the story attached. ;D