struc. engineering or construction ?'s

[midnight1]

any one have any structural engineering / construction questions maybe i can help. i'm a registered engineer and have been in the construction/remodeling industry since 1986. you guys are giving me great advice on discus and i'm willing too share my expertise (if you want too call it that)

paul

[DarkDiscus]

Paul,

I guarantee you will get some questions regarding tank/water weight and whether or not their houses are going to collapse!

John

[midnight1]

that kind of question is no problem :D

paul

[cgrim10]

i have one. this is a serious question.
i am a structural detailer/checker at home office. i recentley recieved drawings for bid (petrochemical) through a local fabricator(houston).
after doing a takeoff, and running it through a unit pricing schedule, i came up with 74,000 lbs. and my bid reflected that. they accepted my bid and issued drawings marked for detailing also asking for a price on revision time. i have completed the model, SDS2. and it weighed in at 117,000lbs. after seeing this i verified the error, the engineer had changed material sizes from the bid set, to the detailing set without clouding changed sizes revised.
(they were given revision levels from "for bid", to "for detailing")
no extra members, just per foot weight. and i mean most beam sizes doubled. i finished recieving revisions(inconsequential at best) and am wanting to bill, but don't want to put the fabricator in the middle of this, because he is my customer. what do you see here? any info/help appreciated
craig

[midnight1]

craig - i think i understand what you are asking but here is my summary as i see it. you did a take-off of structural steel for a bid job done by an architect for a different owner. the fabricator hires you too do the take off for them and they either tell you how much too put the bid in per pound of steel or you give the fabricator the weight and they plug in their numbers and submit the proposal. between the time of their accepting the proposal and the final shop drawings the actual scope of the work changed. you didn't realize this until after you finished the detailing drawings. i'm not sure how much time has passed between when you recieved the revised drawings and the present.

you have 2 concerns (i think)

#1 - your bill is now going too be more too the fabricator due too this change (charge fabricator per ton of steel?) or (time involved due too changes from architect).

#2 - you are concerned that the fabricator didn't or can't change his price too the owner or general contractor too reflect this additional steel.

if this is correct this is what gets done by me / normal around here.

#1 - the frabicator should of in his proposal to the owner / g.c. stated the job name, address, scope of what he is supplying, drawing date and date of any revisions. this covers him for the changes made after the revision/drawing date stated on his proposal. thus the fabricator can give the owner / g.c. a revised bid too reflect these changes. afterwhich two things can happen - they can accept the additional price or they can rebid the job out again (since the scope of the job changed) - usually if the revised price is in line (the same per ton charge as the original bid or less) then the revised bid is now the correct one.

#2 - you should give the fabricator a revised proposal reflecting the additional time required by you for the changes made by the architect.

#3 - both you and the fabricator are protected since there were changes made after your prices were submitted and accepted (and you can verify/prove these differences). the owner/g.c. doesn't have too rebid the job if they don't want too because of the changes.

here is what i'm guessing happened the architect/engineer checked his work and realized that the steel used was undersized. instead of telling the owner he made a mistake and the price of the job would go up too reflect this mistake. he corrected his error and was hoping that it would just be done without the owner ever finding out. the mistake might have even been found out by the state when they were doing their review.

either way the revised steel pricing should get submitted to the general contractor (or whoever the fabricator submitted his bid to in the first place for approval) prior too starting the steel fabrication. try not too proceed any farther until the fabricator has approval.

i realize that you already did your additional work and that is how this change was found out. i would submit your bill to the fabricator as well as a letter stating how the scope of work was changed and thus your price changed too reflect that. there shouldn't be any problem with that.

good luck - i hope this helped - if i misunderstood something let me know.

paul

[cgrim10]

i recieved revised drawings 12-5-02. this job was sent for fabrication this week. originally, the fabricator sent me a package to bid, i have my own unit pricing. i did my takeoff, the fabricator did also. we were within 300 lbs. i was awarded the package, and asked about revision pricing by the engineer. only after modeling was the discrepancy discovered. i am okay with the revisions. (need to throw some in for incomplete drawings!!"
it is the weight i am concerned about since we bid by the lb.
the way i understand the "scope of work involved" leaves me the question, does it apply to material size? or weight? or just the area? the second set of drawings only reflected a "approved for detailing" revision level, nothing clouded, final drawings appeared after the model was built from the approved for detailing drawings, i accepted these as revisions and proceeded to complete at an agreed on price for revision time.
they are 4 weeks behind, steel should have been in the field allready. i see the problem. and have jumped through hoops providing these drawings.
now it's "billin time"!!!!!! and daddy needs some new fish!!!

Also, hi, my names craig. glad you could join this forum. we need people with good sense to keep up the hobby! i take it from your entrance that you are a discus keeper? whats kind you have? and how long you been "kept"
cg

[midnight1]

scope of the work - the way i used it is - what materials and labor you are supplying. if your proposal specified a weight that you were supplying for a specific dollar amount then you should be okay since that is what was agreed on - a specific weight for a specific dollar amount. (too be honest i don't accept bids like that since then it is up to me as the g.c. or owner too verify that the amount specified is correct)

so what happened is they sent out detailing drawings too you and fabricator but either didn't highlight any revisions or didn't highlight the ones that effected your scope. and then the final drawings were finished by the architect even after this point.

it sounds like the changes were made prior to you giving an afformation to "the revision pricing" that the engineer asked for on just detailing drawings? but actual "revised drawings" weren't sent out till afterwards

if the revisions were made on drawings that were given too you as a revised set for you too verify your initial bid/revised bid and thus you either confirmered your initial bid or didn't change your price - because you didn't realize that there were changes that effected you (since they weren't marked) it is a real grey area.

you and your fabricator not taking the time too see if the revised plans effected your pricing and just going by the fact that no changes were highlighted might keep you on the hook for the revisions without additional money. most of the time though you should be able to talk too the g.c. (or who you bid too) and explain the situation and they should "go too bat for you" since IMO this was an honest mistake/oversight (and a poorly revised drawing for you too work off of).

as for your other questions - i used too breed angel fish about 15 years ago. had some discus at that time. moved had my discus die (6 wattley turquoise and 4 schmidt folke reds) the dissapointment and lack of time had me quit till now again. my girls are at an age were they are enjoying their own tanks (5 yrs and 7 yrs old) so now i'm getting excited about discus and angels again.

in the process of building a fish room off of my office - about 20x20 in size. i currently only have some tangerines and blue spotted snakeskins - about 3 months old each. once i get my digital camera i'll share pictures with everone. plan on haveing about 50 tanks for discus and angles with room for 100 total in time.

[cgrim10]

a stamped engineer!! i can't imagine doing what you do! i know i understand only a small part. and appreciate your help on the subject.
thats alot of water space, 50 tanks in 20X20, what your racks gonna look like? thats what i want to see. i am also "doing" a fishroom, alittle smaller though, 17X14. don't plan on that many tanks. i have red royal blues and marlboro reds from cary strong, red spotted greens and red royal greens from mike wells. wattley coruleans, team discus cobalts and a very nice redturq from john nicholson. the wife said they had to go outside after my last flood. am currently looking at large capacity wetdry filter and pump setups. it is time to add tanks and fish to the room, i just don't want to set it up twice. gotta be neat and trim. gotta hurry too. the wife is eyeing a corner for a pantry!!! cg