American Fish Farmers

[pasofino]

Hi my business is st.croix discus hatchery in minnesota.
I need some support for my business, i breed and sell all that i produce in the united states i don't import any fish.
Since 9/11 business has not been good. :'(
Even before that it wasn't great. I've been breeding and selling these discus fish for over 20 years. With ups and downs of the business, this is the worst i've seen in some time, i might have to shut down in the future, if business doesn't pick up.
So if you want to buy a hatchery its for sale, over 50 pairs of all types, babies and all equipment.
We import into this country fish,fish supplies, fish feed & equipment second only to oil, and the national dedt keeps going up. :o
So if you want to keep importing and buying fish thats your choice, but there are plenty of breeders that do a good job producing quality discus right here. We might not have all the different fancy names or the latest strain but i believe we will be there soon, hoping for your support. :)
So sorry for whining, :( but I really care about these fish :)
and the american farmer, for we are losing more & more of every day.
So next time you buy discus, give a second thought to us who are trying to compete with overseas fish, then be a big shot and import some more and bury the american farmer, we don't matter anyway ???
I need some babie discus are you willing to sell for the same price as overseas? I am ;D

Great to see you on Simply Paul. :wave:

I do hope you enjoy it here as much as I ... :D

Weezy, Linda and I are planning on a trip real soon! We'll grab Al on the way. Anxious to see you again and your set up... :thumbsup:

I'll be in touch....

Julz :)

BTW I should post the pics I took at Linda's.... It was very nice to meet you there.

[redlines]

Paul,

Good to see yout at Simply. Just a few questions:

Are you the same Paul who used to live near White Bear Lake or one of those Mnpls Burbs back in the 80's?

Do you have a brother who was also into Discus?

Did you once call your place Pauls Fish Pallace?

If so fellow board members this guy has great fish! You were the first breeder I ever purchased from when I was just a poor college student in Mnpls!!!

Andy

[RichieE]

Hang in there. As much as I hate to admitt it things were better off when Hillary was running the country. :) Hopefully things will get better for everyone.
Posting here from time to time will most likely help get your name around to people who didnt know you existed (me for one) Your prices seem fair and if you have been around for twenty years I'm sure more than a few people can give feedback good(hopefully) or bad about your fish and service.
Welcome and good luck in the future. Rich

[DHDiscusMan]

Paul,

Thanks for visiting simply. I never knew you were out there. There are several US breeders who post regularly on this site and have great reputations for selling quality fish. So many of us are aware that great discus need not be imported.

I wish you all the best with your business and hope that things improve quickly for you.

Take care.

Dan

[Denny]

paul,

take some pictures, post in the breeders section, and start to let people know you and things will get better. ;D


denny


see you in feb.

[yogi]

I just wanted to say welcome. Also I wanted to place your website in this thread. http://www.stcroixdiscus.com

Hey Paul,
I agree with your message, but I'm afraid you gave it to the wrong crowd. Most all of us here support American breeders like Cary, Mike, etc. Sure, some people import, but that's just how it is. I bet the reason you haven't gotten many sales from people here on Simply is that you haven't been here yet. Post some pics of your fish and you setup here, and throw up some people that have fish from you to testify. If you do that and honestly try to help people here, I'm sure you'll get more sales.

Brad

[Willie]

The next Midwest Discus Club meeting will be held at Paul's hatchery. Details in the Events section. Join us if you can and learn from Paul.

Willie

[rsawest]

Hi Paul,

Glad to see you made it here. :D

[goldengatediscus]

Paul, you should stop your whining about imports hurting the American economy, and “buy American.” It’s very passe, xenophobic, and insulting to our international SIMPLY community. We live in a global economy. Look at the computer that you are using, the microwave that you use, the TV that you watch, and look at the labels on the clothes that you wear, and the shoes that you walk on. We could not afford most of that if it were made in America. Americans excel in many areas, but labor intensive jobs with low income are better suited to developing countries.

You say that you don’t have fancy names or the latest strain. Please tell us what is a “golden rattle snake” discus as listed on your website. Just as car models are updated every few years, people like to look for new strains. If you only have the older strains, and nothing in the pipeline, then you’ve already limited your sales. The last time you updated your website was 18 months ago. Market yourself positively and aggressively. Most other well known US breeders have another job as well as breeding discus. I don’t know if they would survive just doing the discus business. If you have high quality fish, excellent customer service, good marketing, reasonable priced fish, positive feedback from customers, then the sales will come.
I wish you the best, but read below to see why “Buy American” is Un-American.
Brigitte

Why “Buy American” is Un-American.

Many Americans think it their patriotic duty to give preference to American-made products. But “Buy American” is wholly un-American in both its economics and its philosophy.
International trade is not mortal combat but a form of cooperation, a means of expanding worldwide production. The benefits of international trade flow to both trading partners, even when one of the countries is more efficient across the board. This is the “Law of Comparative Advantage,” covered in every economics textbook. Free trade does not destroy but creates employment.
Philosophically, Americanism means individualism. Individualism holds that one’s personal identity, moral worth, and inalienable rights belong to one as an individual, not as a member of a particular race, class, nation, or other collective.
But collectivism is the premise of “Buy American.” In purchasing goods, we are expected to view ourselves and the sellers not as individuals, but as units of a nation. We are expected to accept lower quality or more expensive goods in the name of alleged benefits to the national collective.
Most “Buy American” advocates are motivated by misplaced patriotism. But for some the motive is a collectivist hostility towards foreigners. This xenophobic attitude is thoroughly un-American; it is plain bigotry.
Giving preference to American-made products over German or Japanese products is the same injustice as giving preference to products made by whites over those made by blacks. Economic nationalism, like racism, means judging men and their products by the group from which they come, not by merit.
The “Buy American” campaign implies “It’s Japan or us.” If Japan is getting richer, then we must be getting poorer. More and better production is good for everyone, everywhere. What’s good for Toyota is good for America. That’s individualism, and that’s Americanism.
Sacrificing one’s standard of living in order to subsidize inefficient domestic producers is un-American. The tribal fear of foreigners is un-American. Resentment at others’ success is un-American.
A patriotic American acts as a capitalist and an individualist: he buys the best, wherever it may be found, whether it’s an import or made in the USA!
By Harry Binswanger, Ph.D.

I support whoever can deliver the best fish at the best price. I'm not here to join a fan club. At times, this forum can lean in that direction.

Ebill,
Stop Your Playing You know your My biggest fan! :P :P :P


Tell the truth My little Rose red! :-*

Cary Gld LOL!

[Debo]

When I first started looking for Discus my first try was at St Croix Discus . I chose this place because it was close. I sent 2 emails for a visit never recieved any response. I sent and faxed to several places and Cary at Great Lakes was the only one to respond. (Plus I read some good stuff about him on forums. :) )And He tolded me I had to WAIT :o to order Discus from him because he was going to Florada. Now telling someone who has been trying to get herself some discus that she had to wait longer, was just torture. ;) But I waited and got the beautiful Discus I have now. Thank You! Cary. I had to Tell this story because customer services does count.I know because this is wait I do for a living ;D
Deb
Ps I have my letter into Santa for another Tank. And of course I will need more Discus ;D

[rsawest]

I have purchased discus from Paul about 4 or 5 times, the latest being this past summer.

In my experience, his fish have been round, hi-bodied, and healthy. Paul has always been helpful and friendly, and stands by his fish.

Besides Paul, I have also purchased fish from Cary and Al Johnson.

I have been happy with my purchases, and plan on purchasing from these three gentlemen again in the near future.

[RichieE]

Brigitte could you elaborate ;D While i agree with what you wrote I saw a good bumpersticker last week..."Are you out of work? No jobs around? Eat your import." Rich

[paul_burney]

Brigitte
Sorry but i have to agree with Rich i buy American every chance i get even if its a little more. im not saying i wont buy something made outside the USA but i try not to . You wont see me driving a Japanese or German or Koren car it wont happen ;D ;D enough said here cause i dont want to get into it on my views on imports.
Paul

Hi Cary, I've got your picture in my bedroom right beside Pamela Anderson, lol.
I swear I'm gonna buy some fish from you one day. Have a nice Xmas.
I'm gearing up for our family's usual "who can ride the greased goat the longest" festival here in Signal Mountain, TN. Nothing brings in a new year like a sore crotch.

My take on American breeders..I've got fish from Mike Wells and they are fantastic. I haven't bought from Cary yet but plan to. My worst fish came from an American "breeder" who's pairs seem are kept at a brother in laws house but I again won't mention names and I won't buy from him again. Some have posted pictures of fish that came from there too, and for the most part, they weren't really top quality fish in my opinion. There are imports swimming in almost all of our tanks I suspect.

[keno]

There are people from all over the world here on Simply, so you may not get much simpathy in your request to "buy American".

10 years ago I bought a Buick and sunk 1000's of dollars into it cause GM wouldnt stand behind their product. I hung onto this lemon until my wallet couldnt take it any longer (3 years). Then I bought a honda because of their reputation for making truley great cars. For the next 4 years i changed the oil anf the tires and thats the only money i ever spent on it.

Now I buy the best product available period! I dont care where it is made.

Ken

[goldengatediscus]

My post pretty says what I want to say on this topic. If you can buy American, then go for it. All things being equal, if I see an import and US made, both of same quality and similar pricing, I'll buy American, even if it may cost a few pennies more.

May the person with the bumper sticker continue to drive their Ford Focus, introduced in 1999, and already the subject of 11 recalls and 6 defect investigations by Federal regulators. Thank God we don't import the Yugo anymore. Ever flown on a Tupolov 150? If you have, then you are ever thankful to Boeing, and proud that the US aerospace industry is the best in the world.

I love tropical fish, but what future is there for my children as a fish farmer? Just as we moved from the agricultural age to the industrial revolution to the information age, some industries and occupations will become extinct if they don't adapt. Around the period of WWI, great discoveries were being made in the use of antibiotics, chemistry. Through the knowledge of chemistry came the development of nuclear physics during WWII and beyond. Cathode Ray tubes and the integrated circuit brought more changes, and now a computer in every home is almost as common as a microwave. What's next? I don't know, but probably the merging and use of computers and biology/biochemistry. Look at the human genome project. That was not possible 100 years ago. A pill with a built in camera has been developed. You swallow this pill and doctors can see your insides! It's still being refined, but things like this are happening now.

My children and your children will study subjects at college that we've never heard of. They may be in occupations that don't even exist yet. Ask them what an LP or record player is, and they give you a strange look. Maybe it's the spirit of the new year, but I'm excited about the future, and I hope that you are too!
Brigitte

[paul_burney]

Enough Said from me :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X dont want to get into trouble :-X :-X

[Denny]

i hate to do it but i will answer your question brigitte,

what will happen is simple to see if you live in the middle of it. over the last 15 years in my farming community we have gone from farm families who also raised livestock like cattle, hogs and chickens and had large gardens for their vegetables, to single use farms where you either produce soybeans and corn or you have large scale hog confinement buildings. with government mandates i have done work in a dairyfarmers home where he buys his milk at the store because the equipment he would have to upgrade to to meet the guidelines is not cost effective.

what does all of this mean? it means we are closer to the time when few enough corporations own the land and control the production that they will dictate to you and your children how much your food will cost, similar to the health insurance and drug industry does now. will that be better? depends on what side of the fence you are on. think i am full of crap? think back 10 years and consider what you would have said if i told you that you would pay 2 bucks for a bottle of water when it is free from the tap.

sorry, i had to. but i have always respected your posts.

denny

[pasofino]

Paul,

Good to see yout at Simply. Just a few questions:

Are you the same Paul who used to live near White Bear Lake or one of those Mnpls Burbs back in the 80's?Yes

Do you have a brother who was also into Discus?Yes, he's into dog sleding now.

Did you once call your place Pauls Fish Pallace?Yes
Now i've got south american horses to go along with the fish.
If so fellow board members this guy has great fish! You were the first breeder I ever purchased from when I was just a poor college student in Mnpls!!! Glad to here from you Andy. Thanks for your support.

Andy

While I can certainly feel for Paul's plight, I primarily buy Asian/import.

While there are great breeders out there, most of the innovation comes from Asian lands, and most of the really fancy strains come from Asia.

I have yet to see "Minnesota Discus" or "California Discus" books offered for sale next to Malaysia Discus or Penang Discus at the book store. Beyonf Frank Anderson, Jack Wattley and JimQ, what american books have you seen beyond the know your discus crap from TFH???

I'm all for buying american when it is merited. I plan to get stuff from Mike and Cary and a couple of others here, but I plan to import a lot of stuff in quantity from Malaysia, Hong Kong and Japan because it is simply among the best.

For buy american in the discus market to mean something, some of us are going to have to take the Asian mentality with our stock. I was chatting with Jeff last night, and as he said, it's a hobby, not a full time career. Asians take their fish as an obsession. It IS a major business with them and they take it very seriously.

Until American breeders start producing exotic new strains, and not just breeding someone elses stock, and americans start winning the Singapore Aquarama or the Discus shows in Germany, buy american isn't going to mean much.

denny,

I think you're confusing big business vs. family owned business and Foreign vs. American owned. Many of the large corporations that are putting the family farms out of business are American owned. The point that I got out of Brigitte's post was that this is an international forum so it is inappropriate to suggest that anyone should buy American. If the best fish can be had from an American then I'll buy from an American. If not then I'll buy elsewhere. My last batch of fish came from Cary Strong, an American. They included fish that he had imported from Singapore, decidely not American.

I have never purchased from Paul, although in December/99 I did try to get some pricing information via email and received no response. I have also never heard his name or his hatchery mentioned on this forum. Business doesn't usually find you, you have to look for it and nurture it.

Dave

[RichieE]

Denny, I can remember saying "who would ever pay for TV when you can get it for free?" Rich

[RichieE]

Discus Dude, Ive never imported and I'm no where near an expert but from what Ive read and heard the Asian breeders are not sending their best fish over here. If this is true and takeing into consideration the stress of the long trip are you better off takeing a chance overseas than buying the best Discus American breeders have to offer? If there is a problem its got to be easier to work something out with someone local.
My thinking is let the breeder here deal with all the hastles of importing and cleaning up the fish. You said you plan to import from several Asian countries but have you done this? If so have you always been happy and if not do they go to great lengths to try to make things right like many of the breeders that are mentioned on this forum do?
I can only speak for myself but the risk (stressed fish,disease,dead fish,artif. colored fish, language barrier) doesn't justify the reward.(getting beautiful fish that I couldnt get from a breeder here) Rich

[keno]

Oh BTW Im an Irishman living in America and driving a German car, and damn proud of all 3! ;D ;D


Ken

[snooze]

Hi Paul,
The problem with the discus market is there is too much supply and not enough demand. It's a worldwide problem due to the current world's economic recession. More than half of the discus farms in Thailand and Malaysia have gone out of the discus business in the last several years. Some have switched to the flower horns, while others have just quit. There is just too much supply and it is not worth breeding fish to lose money. The United States breeders/brokers haven't done well either. The few that are in business are probably having trouble just breaking even. I expect most will quit as well in the next year or two once they figure out their taxes. Like the late Jim Quarles said "It is almost impossible to make a profit selling fish". Here is a link to a breeder survey at DPH. Most of those on that survey no longer sell discus. You can even see how depressed the market is by going to aquabid.com and checking on the discus auctions. There are very few bids and most bids don't even meet the reserved price. I wish you a lot of luck Paul and hope your business improves.

http://www.dph.nl/sub-breedersurvey/breedercountry.shtml

There are plenty of other breeders/brokers from the USA that are not even on that list. Here's just a few that I remember that I believe have quit: Rising Sun Discus, Marc Weiss, Romac Discus, AppleValley Discus, Jordan Hatcheries, Discus Plus, Discus Haven, Gargas Hatchery, Sheridan Bay Discus...

[Discusgeo]

If you had mention this a year ago I would have told you to keep your worthless American Discus. Up until about a year ago all my Discus were from Asia, all imported Discus thru Ray Kosaka at Discus Hawaii who has done a fantastic job of getting me Discus. It wasn't until Jim Quarles sent me some Red Turquoise from Bill Norris did I reconsider American Discus. I then contacted Cary at Great Lakes Discus after hearing about him on various forums. I took a chance with Carys Discus and I am happy with the product he sent me. In fact I got a second set from him because of the quality Discus he sent me. But because someone who say's buy his Discus an American Discus Hatchery because he's hurting isn't going to happen here with me. I can only hope he does a better job of promoting his Discus. I went to his hatchery and wasn't impressed with what he has to offer. I also want to know what is a Golden Rattle Snake is? I have seen Rattlesnakes here in the Arizona Desert and want to see a Discus resemble one of them.
George

Discus Dude, Ive never imported and I'm no where near an expert but from what Ive read and heard the Asian breeders are not sending their best fish over here. If this is true and takeing into consideration the stress of the long trip are you better off takeing a chance overseas than buying the best Discus American breeders have to offer? If there is a problem its got to be easier to work something out with someone local.


True. The best fish don't get here. However you are still getting a lot better than the average fish around here, and as was stated elsewhere, many of the people who are breeding imported thier stock from overseas.

I bought some Tangerines awhile back, imported. They were supposed to be 3-4" I got 6"+ and they were spawning within a month. I was charged 20.00 each for them, I sold babies for 15-20 each at 2" and sold everything I produced.

I have never had a problem with dealing with imports. In fact, I have had far better luck dealing with imports than dealing with "american". I bought 6 large Discus from an American breeder, supposedly one of the "best". At 150.00 each, I got horribly deformed stuff that shouldn't have made it past the first culling. Not a single fish in that had any redeeming traits worth saving. One of them, when you looked at it straight on, was curved, almost like a crescent moon.

Although the fish were "gauranteed" The dealer in question said that pictures of discus on his web site were like Playboy magazine. You see the best and most perfect, and that what I got was worth the 150.00 I paid per fish. Needless to say I have written this guy off as a complete joke and FYI, he's still around ripping people off.




My thinking is let the breeder here deal with all the hastles of importing and cleaning up the fish. You said you plan to import from several Asian countries but have you done this?


Many many times. At one point I got as many as 12-20 boxes per week. There's nothing to it.




If so have you always been happy and if not do they go to great lengths to try to make things right like many of the breeders that are mentioned on this forum do?
I can only speak for myself but the risk (stressed fish,disease,dead fish,artif. colored fish, language barrier) doesn't justify the reward.(getting beautiful fish that I couldnt get from a breeder here) Rich


I have never been disappionted with what I got. most of the time I got better than what I asked for and often got extra fish as samples. On one occasion I had a problem and was compensated quite well for it.

the stressed fish, disease, dead etc you mention is more fairy tale than reality if you deal with legit businessmen.

I woul say that it DOES justify the reward as I have received many fish that could not be had anywhere else. I've bought 100 count boxes of babies, maybe one or two floaters here and ther, fed them for a two just to be certain all was well, then quadrupled my cost in less than a month.

even more if I held them and grew them out for a month.

I'd say it's worth it......

[goldengatediscus]

I'm not gonna get in trouble again like the LSS thread, so I won't say much more, other than Dave_C has it right on the button. I also agree with Snooze. Somehow, I end up on controversial discussions, and as long as it's civil and in good nature, it's educational to see different sides of an issue.

America’s distinction among all the nations of the world is its enshrined political and economic FREEDOM. We have the CHOICE to buy water for $2 a bottle or drink it from the tap, (which you still pay for through your utility bill. Occasionally, I buy bottled water for road trips etc, but we drink water from the faucet every day. We even refill our water bottles with tap water after they have been washed, to conserve and recycle.

Radio is also free now, but with the emergence of satellite radio, people are opting to pay for advertising-free radio and music of their choice. So, in 10 years, we will be amazed that people pay for radio when we can get it for free! BUT, that's the beauty of having freedom of choice.

I'm not getting into the discussion of imported and domestic fish, because I was discussing "buy American" on a more global issue.
Brigitte

[RichieE]

Discus Dude, who are some of your favorite breeders to import from? Your story is refreshing and not the picture I had. You even make it sound easy. Rich

There are plenty of other breeders/brokers from the USA that are not even on that list. Here's just a few that I remember that I believe have quit: Rising Sun Discus, Marc Weiss, Romac Discus, AppleValley Discus, Jordan Hatcheries, Discus Plus, Discus Haven, Gargas Hatchery, Sheridan Bay Discus...


Boy those bring back memories.

Rising Sun, Weiss, Jordan, Gargas, Discus haven.........

A couple of those others I have heard of but really know little about them.

Thoise were the good old days...... :)

Discus Dude, who are some of your favorite breeders to import from? Your story is refreshing and not the picture I had. You even make it sound easy. Rich


It is.

But like anything, you have to know what you are doing and use some common sense. For every reputable breeder out there, you have 10 idiots growing "cobalts" in muddy ponds full of parasites and trying to pass them off as Blue Diamonds.

First you ask around. There are a lot of guys in the states that know a lot of people over there. I've been out for awhile so I'm a little rusty on contacts right now, but plan on digging up references to people I knew or possibly new sources.

[Al_M.]

Let me try this one.
First of all I have known Paul for almost 20 years and consider him a very good friend.
He has some very nice fish, I was just at his house about a week or so ago. He may not have the very latest strains but he still has some quality fish. He probably will never be a regular on the forums, (why) because he does work full time, has hosres to take care of, 40 to 50 pairs of discus to change water on & babies, and he has a wife also, sometimes theres just not enough hours in the day.
Paul probably has forgot more about discus than most of us know, includeing me.
He has helped out more people in the Twin Cities than anyone else I know of.
And I probably wouldn't have had discus for the last 20 years if it wasn't for him.
One last thing he has had aleast 40 pairs of discus for over 20 years, NOW THATS DEDICATION I know I would have burnt out long ago. ;D ;D
Al M.
P.s. come to our next meeting and see for yourself. ;)

Discus_ Dude

Sounds like Your old school.


Welcome to Discus 2002

Very best wishes to You My friend!

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Cary Gld!

P.S Don't let one bad apple make up your Mind!

Discus_ Dude

Sounds like Your old school.


Welcome to Discus 2002

P.S Don't let one bad apple make up your Mind!



I am indeed.

That does shape some of my opinion as I base on what I recall the hobby like compared to now. I see plenty that could and should change.

I'm also willing to make the effort to help effect that change when I can.

There was a time when you got painted with a very bad brush if you sold imported stock. Not that I see it matters much since quality discus are a good thing, it doesn't matter where they come from.

The one thing I always got irked over were the guys that would bash on someone for selling imported, and then made the claim they bred all their own fish while they were importing a couple dozen boxes per week and passing it off as their own.

Ya! Buddy I agree ;D


Their are still some doing that in FL or was it Michigan!
LOL LOL!

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
TakeCare' Discus Dude
Cary Gld!

[brewmaster15]

Just my 2 cents here...

.... I think it is always prudent to support businesses in your cummunity,state, country etc, when ever possible. It helps them , and it fills the tax coffers and can drive the stock market. ...But there is a flip side to this.... chosing to buy the best product, at at the best price, can drive the local market to improve or be innovative to compete with international markets. ....

...Necessity is the mother of invention.

-al

ps...

Brigitte.... Theres nothing wrong with being on the opposite end of an issue....It'd be a boring world if everyone was looking from the same angle.

Steve...discus Dude.... good seeing you posting again.

Paul,
Welcome to SimplyDiscus! Probably wasn't the best way to introduce yourself :), but I can see where you are coming from. This economy is hell on everyone. If you get a chance to post some pics of your hatchery and fish , that woudl be great. There is also a section on the board for breeders to post about their hatchery....feel free to use it.

Hope things turn around for you,
al

[pasofino]

Paul, you should stop your whining about imports hurting the American economy, and “buy American.” It’s very passe, xenophobic, and insulting to our international SIMPLY community. We live in a global economy. Look at the computer that you are using, the microwave that you use, the TV that you watch, and look at the labels on the clothes that you wear, and the shoes that you walk on. We could not afford most of that if it were made in America. Americans excel in many areas, but labor intensive jobs with low income are better suited to developing countries.

You say that you don’t have fancy names or the latest strain. Please tell us what is a “golden rattle snake” discus as listed on your website. Just as car models are updated every few years, people like to look for new strains. If you only have the older strains, and nothing in the pipeline, then you’ve already limited your sales. The last time you updated your website was 18 months ago. Market yourself positively and aggressively. Most other well known US breeders have another job as well as breeding discus. I don’t know if they would survive just doing the discus business. If you have high quality fish, excellent customer service, good marketing, reasonable priced fish, positive feedback from customers, then the sales will come.
I wish you the best, but read below to see why “Buy American” is Un-American.
Brigitte

Why “Buy American” is Un-American.

Many Americans think it their patriotic duty to give preference to American-made products. But “Buy American” is wholly un-American in both its economics and its philosophy.
International trade is not mortal combat but a form of cooperation, a means of expanding worldwide production. The benefits of international trade flow to both trading partners, even when one of the countries is more efficient across the board. This is the “Law of Comparative Advantage,” covered in every economics textbook. Free trade does not destroy but creates employment.
Philosophically, Americanism means individualism. Individualism holds that one’s personal identity, moral worth, and inalienable rights belong to one as an individual, not as a member of a particular race, class, nation, or other collective.
But collectivism is the premise of “Buy American.” In purchasing goods, we are expected to view ourselves and the sellers not as individuals, but as units of a nation. We are expected to accept lower quality or more expensive goods in the name of alleged benefits to the national collective.
Most “Buy American” advocates are motivated by misplaced patriotism. But for some the motive is a collectivist hostility towards foreigners. This xenophobic attitude is thoroughly un-American; it is plain bigotry.
Giving preference to American-made products over German or Japanese products is the same injustice as giving preference to products made by whites over those made by blacks. Economic nationalism, like racism, means judging men and their products by the group from which they come, not by merit.
The “Buy American” campaign implies “It’s Japan or us.” If Japan is getting richer, then we must be getting poorer. More and better production is good for everyone, everywhere. What’s good for Toyota is good for America. That’s individualism, and that’s Americanism.
Sacrificing one’s standard of living in order to subsidize inefficient domestic producers is un-American. The tribal fear of foreigners is un-American. Resentment at others’ success is un-American.
A patriotic American acts as a capitalist and an individualist: he buys the best, wherever it may be found, whether it’s an import or made in the USA!
By Harry Binswanger, Ph.D.



Lighten up brigitt, I said i was sorry for whining and acting like a victum, import all you want i don't care. So send me a whole sale price list, let see if you can compete with the importers. ;)
Paul

[pasofino]

When I first started looking for Discus my first try was at St Croix Discus . I chose this place because it was close. I sent 2 emails for a visit never recieved any response. I sent and faxed to several places and Cary at Great Lakes was the only one to respond. (Plus I read some good stuff about him on forums. :) )And He tolded me I had to WAIT :o to order Discus from him because he was going to Florada. Now telling someone who has been trying to get herself some discus that she had to wait longer, was just torture. ;) But I waited and got the beautiful Discus I have now. Thank You! Cary. I had to Tell this story because customer services does count.I know because this is wait I do for a living ;D
Deb
Ps I have my letter into Santa for another Tank. And of course I will need more Discus ;D
Sorry i missed your E-mail, I usually save them all so i'll check to see if your naughty or nice. Since your as close as you say you are, will see you at our midwest discus club meeting.
Paul

[pasofino]

denny,

I think you're confusing big business vs. family owned business and Foreign vs. American owned. Many of the large corporations that are putting the family farms out of business are American owned. The point that I got out of Brigitte's post was that this is an international forum so it is inappropriate to suggest that anyone should buy American. If the best fish can be had from an American then I'll buy from an American. If not then I'll buy elsewhere. My last batch of fish came from Cary Strong, an American. They included fish that he had imported from Singapore, decidely not American.

I have never purchased from Paul, although in December/99 I did try to get some pricing information via email and received no response. I have also never heard his name or his hatchery mentioned on this forum. Business doesn't usually find you, you have to look for it and nurture it.

Dave

Dave
Sorry i missed your E-mail i usually answer all and save them for future referance.I apologize for bing inept.
So you have any baby's for sale, send me your whole sale price list.

[pasofino]

Hi Paul,
The problem with the discus market is there is too much supply and not enough demand. It's a worldwide problem due to the current world's economic recession. More than half of the discus farms in Thailand and Malaysia have gone out of the discus business in the last several years. Some have switched to the flower horns, while others have just quit. There is just too much supply and it is not worth breeding fish to lose money. The United States breeders/brokers haven't done well either. The few that are in business are probably having trouble just breaking even. I expect most will quit as well in the next year or two once they figure out their taxes. Like the late Jim Quarles said "It is almost impossible to make a profit selling fish". Here is a link to a breeder survey at DPH. Most of those on that survey no longer sell discus. You can even see how depressed the market is by going to aquabid.com and checking on the discus auctions. There are very few bids and most bids don't even meet the reserved price. I wish you a lot of luck Paul and hope your business improves.

http://www.dph.nl/sub-breedersurvey/breedercountry.shtml

There are plenty of other breeders/brokers from the USA that are not even on that list. Here's just a few that I remember that I believe have quit: Rising Sun Discus, Marc Weiss, Romac Discus, AppleValley Discus, Jordan Hatcheries, Discus Plus, Discus Haven, Gargas Hatchery, Sheridan Bay Discus...


Hi
Thanks for your support. You speak the truth, i know i'll survive but its hard work these fish, probably getting burned out after 20 years with all the ups and downs.
I don't want to be on the quit list, never been a quiter.
So maybe i should sell the business for .10 cents on the dollar :-[.
Once again thanks for telling the truth.
Paul

[redlines]

Hey Paul if you sell have to sell for .10 on the dollar put me on the list ;)

I will take 3 breeding pairs at $40 per pair and 100 3 inch fry at $3 ea ;) ;)


Seriously, I do wish you the very best and it is good to know that you are still out there!!!

Regards,

Andy

[pasofino]

If you had mention this a year ago I would have told you to keep your worthless American Discus. Up until about a year ago all my Discus were from Asia, all imported Discus thru Ray Kosaka at Discus Hawaii who has done a fantastic job of getting me Discus. It wasn't until Jim Quarles sent me some Red Turquoise from Bill Norris did I reconsider American Discus. I then contacted Cary at Great Lakes Discus after hearing about him on various forums. I took a chance with Carys Discus and I am happy with the product he sent me. In fact I got a second set from him because of the quality Discus he sent me. But because someone who say's buy his Discus an American Discus Hatchery because he's hurting isn't going to happen here with me. I can only hope he does a better job of promoting his Discus. I went to his hatchery and wasn't impressed with what he has to offer. I also want to know what is a Golden Rattle Snake is? I have seen Rattlesnakes here in the Arizona Desert and want to see a Discus resemble one of them.
George



George
The golden rattle snake is a cross between a snake skin and a marlboro red seen in alot of asian books. Sorry it doesn't resemble the reptile. I don't recall you visiting my hatchery, you must be an impecable breeder, sorry you were not impressed. Refresh my memory. Next time i'm in the deserts of arizona i'll stop in, maybe you can impress me with your fish and i'll buy some stock from you, so i can improve my genitics.
Paul

[goldengatediscus]

Paul:
I am an avid hobbyist. I don't import and resell. On my last trip to Singapore and Malaysia, I brought fish back with me. I kept what I wanted, and sold the rest. So, sorry, I don't have any sort of price list for you. Whatever fish I have for sale in the future will be the babies from my current collection.

There seem to be some members with excess fry like John Apuzza (BoxerDad). You can probably buy their babies and resell.
Brigitte

last tiem I checked this was a capitalist market... you give good product you get customers.. else you don't I drive and american car and I am happy about it..... Don't whine if you can't compete do something about it you will get rewarded.....

[Ryan]

This topic has been moved to a more appropriate section of the board. The replies have strayed off the path of the original message and there is no reason to keep it on the General Discussion board.

SimplyDiscus is an international board. We are made up of members from around the world and we are proud of that. I am not quite sure that this post was actually out to do anyone harm, I just believe it may have been worded incorrectly and maybe Paul started off on the wrong foot.

We do not encourage or discourage the purchasing of imported discus on this website--instead, we encourage our members to buy healthy fish from whatever source they choose to, regardless of location, reputation, or recommendation. There are breeders and importers out there to satisfy everyones' tastes and hobbyists know what they want and enjoy. Buy from the person who makes you happy.

Also, as a side note, everytime a questionable discussion thread on this website, a Guest viewer sends anonymous complaints to a moderator. If you have a problem with a message here, please e-mail us or include your address in the complaint so that we may contact you personally about the issue. I, personally, do not appreciate anonymous viewers telling me how this website should be handled, and if I continue to get these same complaints flooding my mailbox over and over again I will ban whoever is sending them, because I do have your IP address.

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

Ryan has pretty much stated how I feel about this thread, and the "report to moderator" by guests. I get enough enough junk mail from spammers out there, I don't need to read things like....


Comment by reporting user: Is this a Discus webite or a philosophy web site?
Most “Buy American” advocates are motivated by misplaced patriotism. But for
some the motive is a collectivist hostility towards foreigners. This xenophobic
attitude is thoroughly un-American; it is plain bigotry.
The following post has been reported by a user: Guest (Guest)
Subject: Re:American Fish Farmers
sent 2 times


Comment by reporting user: Is this what this forum is about? Quoting some Phd.
who is spouting "Most “Buy American” advocates are motivated by misplaced
patriotism. But for some the motive is a collectivist hostility towards
foreigners. This xenophobic attitude is thoroughly un-American; it is plain
bigotry."
The following post has been reported by a user: Guest (Guest)
Subject: Re:American Fish Farmers


Abusers of the "report to moderator function" will be banned. If you have serious issue with a post, please as Ryan said , include info so we can contact you. Mods and Admins are always online, just IM them or email me.

Thanks,
al

Ps,
to the guest that sent the above to me...... get a life. A persons view on whether to buy American is a personal choice with economic implications...nothing more....lighten up, will you!!!!!!