hole in the head diagnosis?

[ReeferKimberly]

does HITH look like small pin prik holes or just large ones? every time i have seen HITH on fish they have had large rather noticable holes. a couple of my juvie blue turq discus have small pin prik size holes (looking like extra nostrils) on their head areas. are these a disease or just normal. maybe the really bad cases are large and this is how its starts out? they are acting perfectly normal....eating well, active, not icthing, colors good...

thankz
~kim~

[Ivan]

How many holes are there?
are the holes around the eyes and mouth, or do they spread down the side of the gill plates and body? Are the holes in a symetrical pattern on the face or just random.

[ReeferKimberly]

on one of the fish there are about 8 holes. they range from in between the eyes to higher up on the forhead. there is one right below the mouth. none on the gill pates or very high on the head. also none on the body cavity. they are pretty random. they are really small ad i can only detect them on the turqs b/c they still have their brown color. i have some golden pandas of the same size that i cannot see holes on. they are in the same tank. the tank is always clean and i do a 50% wc every day and i'm never skimpy about it. the ph is 7.0 and its a bare bottom with the heat at 85. hardness is 33ppm. peat in the filter. ammo,nitrate and nitrite=0. i have seen no other problems or disease. i'm just wondering what the very beginning of HITH looks like....

thankz!
~kim~

[aquatechnics]

Kim,

We need to be careful when it comes to diagnose hexamita (hole in the head) in our discus. Sometimes pinholes in the head are not a disease, so the questions is: hexamita or glands???? If the holes are in pairs, in a symmetrical pattern, then it is just the mucous or cement glands. All cichlids, ones more than others, have the same glands in the head. Discus are not the exception. A baby fry (larva) has usually three pairs of glands on the head which secrete a mucous substance by means of which the baby fry becomes attached to the spawning site. At this stage, this secretion is vital because without it, the baby fry would sink to the bottom of the tank or their habitat and inevitably perish. As they grow, these mucous or cement glands, around the face of the discus, get smaller in the epidermis and in some cases, barely visible. I found this and more information in “Breeding Discus” by Jack Wattley and I remember reading a breeding article in DiskusBrief, as well. Here is a picture of my discus showing where these glands can be seen.

[aquatechnics]

Here is also the same pics without the markups for a clear view....

As far as I know, the main characteristic of the Hexamita is the growth of a small white worm-like substance in the skin, usually on the forehead and above the eyes area. When this growth goes away, it leaves a relatively large hole behind. In this board, Flexy has recently posted a picture of his discus with a clear case of hole in the head (hexamita).

Alberto

[Carol_Roberts]

I've had HITH with my beginner discus. usually it appears in the area above the top lip - what we would think of as the nose and forehead area.

Have you ever taken a potato peeler and dug out a spot on a potato with the tip? That is what it looks like - a small scoop, not just a dot. When infected a hard, pus like material may extrude from the pit- some people mistake this for a worm.

Usually an affected discus has several pits of different sizes. They are easiest to see on blue diamonds because of the color contrast.

I believe the holes are caused by a combination of poor water quality and poor nutrition (lack of a diverse diet and/or impaired absorption of food caused by worms or intestinal flagellates).

Increased tank maintainance, a diet of live foods such as CBW and red wigglers along with a course of metro and/or flubendazole should cure it.
Carol :heart1:

I agree with Carol,

But like Alberto pointed out most if not all adult Discus have very small pits around the mouth area and head area more so in wild Discus IME. Am not so sure about the gland statements because lack of info but it very well could be true. If you look close you will see this even on the healthiest discus that is free of diseases. My only problem with this statement is I find the pin holes allways in diffrent places even on related discus.

If You look close at my pics you can see the Tiny Tiny pin holes on some discus but others you cannot!


IMO theses so called glands grow bigger in size from the lack of Good Conditions Water, Food, + Elements.

So like I said I agree with Carol and agree this is often over looked as Hex.

If you look at albertos wild Discus you can see the holes very well. Wild discus have a rough life so I expect the so called glads to be bigger then My spoiled rotton eat better then me Discus that have it made. ;D ;D ;D

HTH you hold off on the meds
Cary G :D d!

A harder to see Discus

[Francisco_Borrero]

This is a wild blue fish (older fish) that I have rehabilitated from one of the most dramatic cases of HITH I have seen. Basically large portions of the head, between the eyes, above the eyes, and pits on the opercula were present. This fish was at some bozo's aquarium and I got it (along with other wilds) for very lttle money. Unfortunately I don't have a "before" picture, so what I am showing here is a detail of the head of the fish as of last November (about a year after bringing the fish to my house, perhaps less).
HITH is gone and covered over by new tissue. The new tissue appears thinner and lighter in color than the rest of the head, so you can still see what the massive damage must have been. I don't think it will ever disapear completely, but it continues to improve.

[Francisco_Borrero]

and this is the fish (the one in the right). This picture is taken a few days later in December.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Francisco:
Do the fins ever fill back in?
Carol :heart1:

[ReeferKimberly]

thank you everyone for your advice. the holes look very much like the first two oictures, maybe even smaller. i think they are probly just the glands u were talking about b/c i understand it usually only occurs with overcrowding and bad conditions but my discus are spoiled and their tank is immaculate. the juvies are in a 35 gallon (only five 2 inche fish). i cannot see the holes on my adults but they are light in color so maybe its just harder to see them. thankz everyone, i'll make sure it doesn't turn into something else w/out my knowledge.
~kim~

Carol,
This is a case were the discus should have his fins trimmed!


After trimming and kept under good conditions food,water,ETC
the fins will grow back even in most cases.


HTH You win a Discus Show!
Cary Gld!

[Francisco_Borrero]

Carol: I guess they improve but it takes a very long time.
Cary, I wish I felt brave enough to use the scissors, but I don't. I don't disbeleive you but I wish I had some "trashy" fish to try it on. Of course somebody can say that all my fish are "trashy", as all 14 wild fish have been purchased from either "bozos" who had them nearly dying before letting me have them, or LFS's where I convinced them to sell them to me very cheap because otherwise they were going to loose them to Capillaria and neglect. Thus I do have several fish that have shredded fins since they came to me, and have improved substantially, but again, very slowly. And also have some that had hole in the head and have recovered nicely. I had not paid "full price" for any fish until last week, when I decided to buy some wild Curipera from Oliver Lucanus. They are arriving tomorrow and I can't wait!!!
As an example of a cheap fish, I paid $12.95 for each of 4 fish, including the pictured red heckel. They were 2 heckels and 2 blue fish, riddled with what seemed like Capillaria (black, slime sloughing off), skinny, gill flukes, tapeworms, nematodes, white feces, etc. Several people in this forum, perhaps yourselves included encouraged me and answered questions about my proposed treatments, and I am very greateful with what came out. Here is the fish as of late November (purchased in June).

Thanks & cheers, Francisco.

[Francisco_Borrero]

I just remembered about the recent article by Phog in FAMA (? or was it another magazine?) using the clipping technique to achieve regeneration of damaged fins. I may just be a chicken but I don't feel brave enough!...
I wish it would work if I practiced it first on paper fish, but unfortunately paper fish have been proven not to regenerate anything.
Thanks again, Francisco.

Good Job MY FRIEND :thumbsup:

I've never heard of the 'gland' issue with Discus, nor have I read it anywhere. I'd be interested to get some actual quotes regarding these Discus glands in fry and adults. From what I have read HITH and Hexamita should not be used interchangeably. Hexamita often accompanies HITH but it is not equivalent to HITH. HITH is thought to be caused by poor water conditions, poor diet or stray voltage. It is often cured by Metro, improved diet & improved environment. I have a bunch of adults, some have pits but most don't. If the average Discus has glands and these glands are visible and numerous then I would think they would all have them.

Bottom line for me, if I'm buying a Discus I would choose the one without visible glands since many don't have them. I would operate on the assumption that visible glands are really the first signs of HITH and I would not buy a fish that had them.

Dave

[daninthesand]

I agree with Dave. HITH and Hex are not the same thing. IE My reading and research has led me to undersand that Hex. is an opportunistic infection that colonizes holes created by HITH "disease" (loosely using that term BTW)

I've read that swabs from the holes in fish with HITH did not show Hex. all the time.

Another thing to point out is that "normal" pores, glands whatever you want to call them tend to be symetrical in placement. IE Both sides of the face have the pits in the same location if you look a the fish straight on. Sort of like bilateral rows of nostrils. At least thats what I see in my discus. Its really obvious in adults.

HITH tends to be more haphazard and irregular in both shape and location. From what I have seen anyway.

HTH.

Daniel

Dave + Dan,
I agree I have done some further reading and come up with the same thing. I have even gone over all my adult discus and nothing of mine looks even close to albertos pics. So IMO I believe what we are seeing is the start of HITH.

Like I said before I believe the wilds are more commen to carry them. It dose not mean the discus is doomed just means some precaution's should be taken to fix the problem before it
leads to other problems like Bac infections infesting the holes etc...

Alberto,
Here is the book you were talking about and this is all it said about HITH. nothing about glands.

Brew, whats your thought's?

HTH you stop your discus from looking like the Moon!
Cary Gld!

[Francisco_Borrero]

I agree on the quality of picture-taking.

This is copied from something I posted a while back on the Metronidazole discussion started by Al a while back (this same discussion forum). My "theory" about 2 types of HITH did not provoque comments by anyone, but is something I have come to believe looking at the fish I have bought sick and have rehabilitated. Here is the quote, and I would really appreciate if anyone could comment.
Here is the quote:
_______________________________________________

I believe there are at least 2 types of HITH scars/lessions: 1) Type I: The "classical" HITH that starts as pinholes that become larger but mostly deeper (as oppossed to wider). They become deep and usually white stuff is seen protruding from the holes. It occurs most commonly in the forehead, and above the eyes.
2) Type II: another type that does not go deep but extends laterally, becoming wide but shallow "ulcers"; these can be so wide as to cover large portions of the face, operculum, etc. They can occur anywhere in the head region. I have never seen any white stuff protruding from them, and they don't seem to get deeper, only wider.

When I have said that I have seen some recovery of HITH, this has been with both Type I and II above.
Some time ago, Al, the Brewmaster, suggested that small "HITH" ulcers of the Type II above (the nomenclature is my own) may be related to Capillaria infestation (rather than Hexamita), and gave me some Panacur and a recipe for using it in food. I have tried and believe it works, but the recovery is a slow process, and it may not be complete within a lifetime (mine or the fishes, or within "one's patience time"). All in all, I have seen some recovery.

One last thing. There is a DiskusBrief article (can't think of the reference right now) where the author describes his experience in attempting to cure the actual holes on the fish, using several methods. This is different from cleaning the fish from intestinal parasites ("the reason" for the holes), since now we want to actually patch up the holes, after cleaning the fish of parasites. Several things were tried but no success were seen. At last, the author tried something called BETAISODOMA, which is an IODINE COMPLEX solution, dabbed onto the wounds, and then covered with a cream (forgot the name) that acted as a "sealer", so the med would stay in place. The author described 100% recovery of the actual holes over several weeks using this, although I don't know how severe the holes were to start with. Betaisodoma is a german drug not available in the US, but I looked in the internet and found it, and came to the conclusion that is very similar to many readily available iodine solutions sold in the US. The sealer cream also had a german trademark, but seemed to be something along the lines of Vaseline jelly. I have actually been tempted to attempt this but have not. Obviously one would need to net the fish for such applications.
I have not tried these procedures but I read them with interest.
______________________________________________

I agree with the suggestion that small pinholes are early stages of HITH. I also know that discus do indeed have pores, and several books talk about this. But which pores are glands and whick are HITH pinholes?...I don't know.
Do the pinholes (my Type I HITH) become large shallow areas (my Type II). From my observations.....no.

Great thread guys. Thanks and Cheers, Francisco.