Muriatic Acid to lower pH

[roger]

Greets All,

I have been fighting the pH war here on my end in an attempt to be able to get some wild discus.

Heres the numbers I have out of the tap and after being aged. The water is if nothing else very stable. All the tank raised fish dont seem to mind the tap water at all.

pH 8.4-5
gH 14-15
kH 3-4

Yeah I know I should be raising african cichlids instead ;D

I went to the store today and got a one gallon jug of muriatic acid and pored about a 1sec worth into a 5 gallon bucket. The pH is still dropping which is fine since Im playing around trying to get a feel for the right ratio.

I was looking for anyone else that was going this route to see if they had any does/donts and any other good advice for this.

Peace,
Roger

[fcdiscus]

Find what works for you, and add it in a holding receptacle first, and aerate for 24 hours. It will drop the pH drasticly, and then it will start to rise fast. If you are going to use it, never put it directly into a tank of fish, and try your hardest to keep each batch at the same level. Good luck Frank

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Roger
Muratic acid is nastey stuff, wear protective gloves and eye protection when using it all so you do not want to breath the fumes.
Frank is right it will drop the ph fast then it will rebound a little.
Always mix in a separete container NOT in the aquarium and let it stabilize for 12 to 24 hours before using.
I have used it and if the need arises I will use it again.
An other option for you would be to peat filter your water, I feel this is better but more work.
Dennis

[bmrin1]

Roger,
Dennis is right on. The stuff is dangerous so use extreme caution. My water is similar to yours and I advise that you keep a close o eye on the ph until you get exactly what you want. The ph will definately rebound. Good Luck.
Brian

[roger]

Hey Dennis, FC, Brian

Looks like I have some playing around to do so that I can get a feel for this stuff. I have a few weeks before I plan on picking up any wilds.

I have some peat in house now but what Im finding is that the water is so hard and the pH so high that it takes a lot of work to get it to drop.

One of the questions that I have is does anyone know if adding muriatic acid changes hardness at all. I would think that its possible that kH drops since thats a measure of pH buffering capacity.

It may end up being a mix of muriatic acid to lower the pH and knock down kH and the peat to lower pH and hopefully knock down gH.

[Wolf]

I switched to M. acid a few weeks ago and I'm loving the savings over discus buffer. I add it to my storage container and airate it for 24 hours. My ph stays steady as long as I keep it at 6.5ph. My water out of the tap is 10+ph, GH 5, KH 2. If I try to decrease the ph under 6.5ph it will rise over 24 hours to 6.5ph again so I start of at 6.5ph and it stays there. I also use a 1 gallon milk jug to dilute the acid about 6/8 water then top it off with the acid. This way its much safer to handle daily and the 1 gallon jug will treat 55g of water a day for over a month.

[Carol_Roberts]

Dennis has soft water - that's why his ph bounces up a little. Your's will bounce around like a ping pong ball!

My well water is GH 11 (not as hard as yours). You will be amazed at how much acid you have to use to lower your pH and keep it there AND it's not going to happen with a little overnight airstone. Get out the big pond pump and agitate it like a washing machine. . . . . . BUT WHY?

Acid doesn't soften the water at all and INCREASES TDS

You need an RO to soften your water THEN you can add a bit of acid or peat to lower the pH.

Carol :heart1:

[roger]

Carol

Isnt it the kH that does the buffering and not the gH?

And yes Im working on getting a RO system but it may be a couple of weeks before I manage it and then probably another couple of weeks to figure out what mix of water to get what I want.

My 1st experiment with this stuff was a total nightmare, glad I did all my water changes before I added it to my aging tank. Suffice to say a few water changes to the aging tank and I have the pH holding mostly steady at 7.8. Im happy with that since all my fish are at 8.4ish and a sudden drop is what Im trying to avoid.

BTW a wooden stand with a 120g tank creaks when you fill and empty it :) I just didnt realize it since I have never had anything bigger than a 55 and that is on iron.

Peace,
Roger

Hi Roger

I have used M-Acid for a while too.
It takes out the KH and it brings the Conductivity/Tds up.
I later changed to RO with the best result.
If you go with wild's I dont think bringing up the Cond./Tds is a good thing. Of course that depends on the parameters you have right now.
Either use peat or RO thats to my knowleged the best for wild's. I use for my wild.s R/O and they like it. I get a pH of 6.5 and I adjust the conductivity to 200. The KH is very low but with regular W/C it stays very stable.
KH is only a part of GH so if one would say GH affects the buffering he would not be that wrong.

[lkleung007]

Hi Roger;

I have to agree with Carol. The ability to bring the pH down using "acids" depends on the KH. If the KH or buffering capacity is very high then it will take a LOT of acid to bring it down and keep it down. I have used "pH down" before for my well water which is fairly soft and easier to adjust. Also be careful with using acids, once the buffering capacity is "exhausted" by adding acids the pH can really plummet and cause severe harm to your Discus.

With water that is as hard as yours I would use RO/tap mix to get it the way you would like.

HTH, Lester

[roger]

I had a nice call with Walter from airwaterice.com about a RO unit. If things go right I should have one in my hands by at the latest monday. Until then I still need to work on this muriatic acid combination.

My goal with muriatic acid is to be able to make 6.50 water without having to give up all the kH to get there. I have the sneaking feeling that even once I have RO in house that Ill be probably be mixing water anyways. Whether its RO + tap or RO + tap + peate water or even acid water.

Its a big yes on high kH and pH bouncing around, I have the water at 7.8 and running through a peat bag. I had 3 water that I added tap to do get there so the kH shouldnt be completely depleted. Ill be measuring the gH kH and getting back with those numbers.

Phosphoric acid human grade is best 80%

Cary Gld!
p.s
Muriatic acid will also remove o2 from your water ;) so its best to use it on the side

[fcdiscus]

Cary: where would you get Phosphoric Acid, and answer my e-mail already! Frank ;)

[yogi]

For things like phosphoric acid or for formalin. Look up chemicals in your local yellow pages. If that doesn't work call Advance Scientific and Chemical Inc. in Dania Beach, Fl. I can't find there 800 number, but this is there regular number. (954) 327-0900

[roger]

I wonder if the reason that you get such a nasty drop then bounce with Muriatic acid is that because it does rob the water of O2 that which also causes pH to drop. As you airate the system all the O2 coming back makes it rocket back up. ?

[Russ]

I just started expermenting with mutric acid to lower my ph, I use it and the ph drops to 5 then airate the water for 24hrs and this brings my ph to 6.5, but after another 24hrs hrs the ph falls to 5 or lower again, how can I get it stay at 6.5?

My PH out of the tap is 8.5, my GH is 5, and my KH is 1.

[roger]

Muriatic Acid is some seriously strong stough and with your kH that low already you may want to go with something milder. Like run a bag of peat in your filter or just use a itty bitty bit of acid to lower the pH.

I will only use this stuff on RO water these days because that bounce was driving me crazy.

Any particular reason your trying to lower your tap? I would think that most of use would kill to have that coming out of the tap.

Peace,
Roger

Hi Russ,

Having simelar water parameter as you do I have done follwing:
I have used M.Acid and have let the water sit for 48 hrs.
After 24 hrs. it still was bouncing all over the place. Make sure you have air supplie for the pretreating procedure.

In the BB Tank I have placed Crushed Coral shells to add back some calcium carbonate (sp). That did the trick.

I then have decided to go with R/O and without Acid. In one tank I still have the C. Coral for the buffering. My Planted Tank has enough buffering so there I have no need for it.

That was what I have done so far. Your water might be a bit different then mine so I would recommed to test around a bit. ( of course not in the tank with Fish ;D)

HTH Ronald

[jesser]

a year of using m, acid, ( in any pool supply store) too much work it turns out the ro mixture and consistency of a stable ph in my case a 7.2, 100 ppms @ 84 degrees i have been able to trigger my discus to spawn. consistency was the trick for me. the less work the better forme.

[roger]

Hello Jesser

I came to the same conclusion that you did, but more do the fact that my tap water is so hard.

I do still use muriatic acid on RO water when Im trying to bring the pH down in it. But its in the drop/gallon category and its as stable as a rock. I usually use peat but that will only lower pH so far.

I think the people with soft water can use muriatic acid on a regular basis.

Peace,
Roger

Hi All,
"I think the people with soft water can use muriatic acid on a regular basis."

Roger, That is a very dangerous statement in my opinion.

Soft water is defined by a few factors and one includes a low KH. Using Muriatic Acid on already soft water can cause a pH crash if not monitored very carefully. Muriatc Acid takes out KH. Now leaving already soft water with less KH will most certainly end in a pH crash if the KH will not be brought up again. (baking soda or something else)(rising pH again ???)
To avoid that one has to be extrem carefully. I would not recommed it if someone is new to this.
Oh this does not refer to you by the way. ;D

Ronald

[Carol_Roberts]

Lowering the pH with muriatic acid is a PITA with moderately hard/hard water too as the pH keeps swinging back up in the tank . . . I tried and tried and never was satisified with the results.

At my house the pH is what the pH is and I don't mess with it anymore.

[roger]

Hello Ronald,

I was making a statement of fact based on the effort it takes to use that stuff on hard water.

If anyone is thinking about using this stuff PLEASE be CAREFULL.

As Ronald has pointed out the only way to get the pH to change and stay changed is to basically reduce kH to 0. When you are down in that range a pH crash probably isnt a matter of if but when it will happen.

There are people that live life on the edge with low pH and low kH and they do a lot of extra work to keep things from getting out of hand.

Peace,
Roger

[Russ]

Hi Ronald,

I tried using baking soda and all that did was counter the effect of the muturic acid, raising the PH to 8.5 again and only raising the KH to 2.
I have a couple of questions about crushed coral, would using crushed coral, like the baking soda raise my PH which is already higher then 8.5, how much coral would I need for a 90 gallon tank and how long is crushed coral good for.
I also have a couple of questions about peat, how much should I use and how long does it take take to work? I'd appreciate any advice you have to offer.

Russ

[Steve_Warner]

Hi Ronald,

I tried using baking soda and all that did was counter the effect of the muturic acid, raising the PH to 8.5 again and only raising the KH to 2.

Russ




Hi all,
Russ..........and all the while sending your conductance SKYROCKETTING. When you put in Muriatic Acid(37% Hydrochloric Acid) you are adding Hydrogen and Chloride ions, which will send your conductance up dramatically. When you counter that acid with baking soda(Sodium Bicarbonate), you are adding more ions in the form of Sodium and Bicarbonate. These too will add to your conductance rising. Why are you fiddling with your water? You have relatively good water, which will either naturally drop in pH with a healthy, active bio-system or drop with the addition of peat acids. Have you tried aging your source water to see what it goes to with aeration/time? Just my opinion.


Steve

Hi Steve and Russ
It's about time you got into this Steve ;D

That's exactly what happened with my water. (what you described with M.Acid and backing soda) The cond. ended up over 550.
Well my pH was, is unbelievable 9.5 out of tap with dGH 4 and dKH 1 and cond. around 400. Now after 48hours of air it came to 7.5-7.9 pH which is for me not acceptable.

I also think using Peat is one way to go and not using Acid's with the Parameters given. Another way (the one I am using now) is R/O either mix with Tap or Straight and then adding back the minerals. In my case R/O gives me the Parameters I want and the crushed Coral gives me the stability without affecting the pH too much.

Regarding CC you could put a handful in a pantyhose and see if the pH stabilizes. If it drops just add a bit more.

Regarding how long it is active, I have no clue. I just recently
(after using it for about 6 month) have changed it.

Regarding peat I hope Yogi aka Jerry Baer jumps in because I know that is what he uses. I am sure there a also more around who can tell you about peat.

Whatever you decide to do try to use KISS (keep it simply stupid)

hth Ronald

[Russ]

Hi,

This may be a stupid question, but do I run peat only in the holding tank, or both in the holding tank and the display tank? also how long does peat useally last before it needs to be changed?

Russ

[ClayT101]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but that is what "search" is for. So, if I continue to add muriatic acid, eventually it will overcome the kH and lower the pH? My KH is 8, my GH is 1, my pH is 8.2, possibly 8.5. I have played with this in the past, and it kept jumping back up.