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View Full Version : discus laying on bottom,not well.



beck
01-04-2003, 04:59 AM
Hi all,
New discus keeper needs help! Got 15 blk neons+8 discus in a 300 ltr tank.All but 1 of my discus now lays on its side at the bottom of my tank underneath the filter.They go dark when hiding,but go bak 2 normal if & wen they come out.Some are clamping 1 fin to their side,some have fluffy white growths on their fins.The tank was set up before the neons were put in,then i put the discus in.They have only been in since sunday.If you can surgest anything,please bear in mind there are neons in the tank.Can put them in my community tank if needs be thou.
Checklist as follows:-

PHYSICAL CONDITION OF FISH.
1.visible parasites.
NO
2.stringy feces.
NO
3.head standing.
NO
4.bloated/constipated.
NO
5.hole in head,lateral lin erosion.
NO
6.spots,salt like flecks,velvety appearance,cotton like growths.
YES,COTTON GROWTHS ON FINS,5mm WHITE LINES ON 1 FISH
7.excessive slime production.
NO
8.labored breathing.
NO
9.cloudy eyes.
NO
10.darkened colour.
ONLY WEN IN HIDING
11.faded colour.
NO
12.other unusual changes.
LISTING WEN SWIMMING,LAYING ON THE BOTTOM,HIDING UNDER FILTER.

WATER PARAMETERS.
1.ph.
STEADY 6.4
2.temp.
82-84 deg f
3.hardness.
SOFT
4.conductivity.
????WATS THAT.
5.tds.
????WATA THAT.
6.r/o filtered,tap,rain water.
CHLORINATED CITY,TREATED WITH TETRA AQUASAFE.
7.water change regime.
25% DAILY
8.appearance.
STAINED BY BOGWOOD.
9.odor.
SMELLS CLEAN.

TANK PARAMETERS.
1.size in volume.
300 ltrs (62 imp gallongs approx).
2.substrate.
SAND(THOROUGHLY CLEANED).
3.planted.
YES,5 PLANTS.
4.drft wood.
2 PIECES OF BOG WOOD.

FILTER TYPE.
1.wet/dry.
WET,JUWEL JUMBO(1000 ltr per hour,diffused outlet,so little current.)
2.canister.
NO
3.hanging box.
NO
4.sponges.
YES IN JUWEL(2 FINE,2 COARSE,1 CARBON + 1 PRE FILTER FLOSS).
5.suppliment peat.
NO
6.suppliment air.
NO
7.carbon,resin exchanges,ammo-chips.
CARBON SPONGE IN FILTER.

LIGHTING.
1.hood.
YES.
2.bulb type/size,watts,spectrum.
2 FLOURECENT TUBES,1 NARVA WARMLIGHT-30" 38WATT,1 NARVA DAYLIGHT-30" 38WATT.
3. light/dark cycle.
14HRS LIGHTS ON.

GENERAL.
1.diet.
TETRA PRIMA,TETRA RUBY,KING BRITISH BLOODWORMS.TETRA FED TWICE DAILY,BLOODWORMS EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS.
2.other tank occupants.
15 BLACK NEON TETRA'S.
3.how many discus in my tank.
8
4.how long have you had them.
6 DAYS.
5.where did you get them.
LFS.
6.tank and filter cleaning schedule.
FILTER-FLOSS CHANGED WEEKLY,CORBON CHANGED MONTHLY,SPONGES CLEANED IN TANK WATER FORTNIGHTLY.TANK-GLASS CLEANED WEEKLY,PLANTS CHECKED+DEAD BITS REMOVED DAILY,FECES+UNEATEN FOOD REMOVED WHILE DOING DAILY 25% WC.
7.medications/salt remedies used or tried to treat this prob.
NONE AS YET,THIS IS WHERE YOU LOT COME IN.

P.S. my discus are 2" long.

limige
01-04-2003, 06:11 AM
sounds to me like a bacterial infection. i had the same problem before. Dr. Cary said work it up to 2 tb. spoons salt/10 gallons for 10 days. 50% water changes daily adding the same amount of salt to the new water during the change.

for young discus they like 88 degrees. if they don't eat at that temp, raise it to 92 until they start eating again.

your tetras probably won't like the heat though, most of us keep cardinals if anything. they withstand the heat much better.

PS: good job providing proper info :thumbsup:

Ardan
01-04-2003, 06:17 AM
HI,
New discus will generally take time to adjust and feel less stress in a new home. This could be why they hide and turn dark. Salt will help them overcome stress and some diseases.(fungus, some bacteria)
Also upping the temp to theupper 80F or even 90F may help them adjust and overcome possible parasites.

hth
Ardan :sun:

01-04-2003, 08:54 AM
What about a higher concentration of salt to help w/ the bac. infection....say 4 Tbs/10 gallons. That's more than safe. Also, may want to try some meth blue, as it works quite well for bac. infections at 4 drops/gallon

beck
01-04-2003, 01:17 PM
Thanx 4 the advice!
firstly,have added salt at 2 tblspns/10 gal.Have also treated tank with "waterlife-protozin",hope its the rite kind of treatment! ??? Have turned my heater up all the way,but it takes hours just to raise it a couple of degrees.
there is a fish rite at the front of the tank now,looks like it has been sunburned & its skin is starting to peel.It also has white stringey bits hanging from its lower fin.
Another has taken 2 resting half way up the tank,facing the surface.All fish are now permanently dark.

keep you posted.

limige
01-04-2003, 04:33 PM
well, i'm not an expert hopefully cary or someone can help some more. that sunburnt look doesn't sound good.

check out
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1076

are you usin enough chlroline/chlorimine treatment in your water? i'm worried about possible chlorine burns if it's not desease. pics would help alot if you have a friend with a digital camera.

for camera pics, use lots of tank light, no camera flash, macro focusing (not auto), and downsize picture size to 480x640 mpixels in jpeg or gif format.

mike

Carol_Roberts
01-04-2003, 05:22 PM
You've had these baby discus for less than a week and already they have fungus on the fins and patches on the body AND are laying on the bottom of the tank black.

Have you read the thread on columnaris? I'm thinking it's going to take a lot more than a little salt and heat to save these guys. Probably they came to your house sick. Did they ever eat and swim about happily?
Carol :heart1:

beck
01-04-2003, 05:56 PM
Hi again,
Firstly thanks for the continued help + interest.2 answer your question carol,they have not realy had much of an appetite from the start.1 fish seemed to list as soon as he went into my tank,prob listing in shop 2.So many fish in such a small tank,its difficult to notice if all fish are healthy in a shop.

3 of the discus are now up & feeding.Well,wen there not rubbing themselves against the plants.The cotton wool growths are coming off wen they do this.IS THIS A GOOD SIGN? :-\

As for the rest of my discus,not good.Dont seem 2 b able 2 get off the bottom of the tank now,basically semi-controlled drifting is the best they can manage.They have gone down hill very fast. :'(

Will check out that thread now carol,thanx.

beck

limige
01-04-2003, 11:50 PM
glad to hear some are doing better, yes it's a great sign the white stuff is coming off! check out that thread and keep us posted!

beck
01-05-2003, 12:47 PM
hi,
The fish seemed on their last legs this morn'.None of them could get off the bottom.Things have improved a little during the afternoon,have had up to 5 of them swimming around.Albeit,just about.I have noticed today that there r now white fluffy/stringey bits all over my bogwood.DOES THIS HELP YOU AT ALL?
I have added the second dose of "waterlife-protozin",the final dose is tomorrow.
I have taken some pics,but the water is coloured by the med+their a lot blurry!
One thing i'd forgotten to mention,their feces are RED!,the tetra food is also red so im assuming its just the food.

beck.

beck
01-05-2003, 12:55 PM
you can just make out white bits on this fish!
bek.

limige
01-05-2003, 02:16 PM
i'm not sure, red feces would indicate they are pretty messed up internally. someone else needs to help here.

if it's fungal and not bacterial you need to move to a bare bottom tank with clean water, change 50% twice a day. keep the salt and use an antifungal med.

others please help, i've never dealt with something this bad.

Carol_Roberts
01-05-2003, 03:15 PM
I've never seen anything like it. Can you get Potasium Permanganet ( used in water softners) ? Here is a link to Dave Clubine's site for usage http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/master.htm

Here is more info from TeddyJ's website

Potassium Permanganate Dip.

This treatment is very hard on fish, and is only for external problems. Please do not use it unless you are absolutely sure that the fish you need to treat really needs this treatment, and there is absolutely no other less traumatic means of treating the fish for its problems). This treatment can kill your valuable fish. Be warned!

Now you’ve had the warning. I can continue with what I’ve learned.

This treatment will kill external parasites like flukes (incl. gill flukes) and just about any pathogen/bacteria on a fish that may be causing it problems. This treatment will also remove the slime coat from your Discus, and leave it unprotected during the time it takes for the fish to re-grow its slime coat. A similar treatment with a 3-minute dip (for adult fish) has been recommended by Jim Quarles and others as a treatment for ‘The Discus Plague’

Prepare a sterile tank and add 1 tblsp of none iodized salt per 10 gals and an air stone. Prepare (clean) and fill two buckets (or similar containers). Try to make sure the water in the tank and buckets (containers) has the same or similar parameters as that from which the fish are to be taken. To one bucket (container), add 10mls of base mix per gal (4 ltrs) of water and give it a stir. The water will be a very dark purple. (almost black). Net the fish, and using a stopwatch or other accurate time measuring device, dip the net and fish into the container of PP mix for 1.5 minutes. Remove the fish (still in the net) and immediately dip it (and net) in the other clean prepared bucket to rinse, and then place the fish into the clean tank to recover from its ordeal. The fish should completely re-grow/replace its slime coat within 12 hrs or so. Following this treatment, the fish should be quarantined for at least 4 weeks to ascertain that the problems have been removed, and the fish is well enough to be returned to its normal habitat.. I can only add that I hope you never have to use this procedure.

All the best, teddy,j

I think it's also know as KMNO4
Carol :heart1:

beck
01-05-2003, 03:27 PM
Hi limige,
The "waterlife" med im using is for,i quote "all protozoan & fungal infections."I've looked on the bottle but cant find the active ingredients.
Just watched one of my discus rub against a leaf,dislogding some of the "fungus?",this was quickly eaten by 1 of my tetra's!I'll c if i can get a good pic of the "fungus?" on the bogwood.

bek

beck
01-05-2003, 03:51 PM
Hi all,
Thanx 4 that carol!At least i have a "last resort!" option now.Only thing,i dont have a spare tank!YET!If things go that way,wats best to do with my current display tank?Assume empty+steralise.
I've got a decent pic of the "fungus?" on the bogwood.Both pieces are now lightly covered with it!

bek.

Carol_Roberts
01-05-2003, 03:57 PM
Take the bogwood out and boil it!
Carol :heart1:

peety
01-05-2003, 03:57 PM
I feed tons of tetra bits, and my discus have red feces too. No probs there....

Thats all I can help on.... sorry. Good luck.

peet

beck
01-05-2003, 05:17 PM
Thanx,
At least the red feces are ok.1 less thing to worry about!
Bogwood's on its way out of my tank!!!!!

bek.

beck
01-05-2003, 06:19 PM
Just finished boiling the bogwood.1 of the pieces stank!!!Not sure if it was mainly the salt that made it smell so much?Thort bogwood was inert+safe 4 aquaria.
Keep u posted!

bek.

Carol_Roberts
01-05-2003, 09:08 PM
Are you sure you don't have a dead fish in there somewhere? I'd start pulling things out and doing big water changes with aged water of the same pH and temperature.
Carol :heart1:

beck
01-06-2003, 05:03 PM
Hi,
Lost 1 of my discus today. :'( The white bits on 1 fish now looks like a sore!All look unwell.Added another heater earlier,taken to long with just 1.Up to 88 deg f now.Added the third and final course of the "waterlife" med,doesnt seem to have made a difference.
The fish that died didnt have any marks or white bits on it! :-\
Got a few new pics of my fish,i'll post them in a bit i hope.Having probs with my ISP,their fone line is down.Costing me a fortune to b on at mo.

bek

beck
01-06-2003, 05:25 PM
ISP back online! :)
Only 1 pic small enough 2 post.Sorry bout my finger,but you can c the "sore" ok!

beck
01-07-2003, 01:31 PM
hi,
1 of the discus has got long white stringy feces.According to my book,sounds like "hexamita".Any brand name treatments for that?

bek

limige
01-07-2003, 05:19 PM
hexout or hex i mit anything with metrodiazinol!!!

hurry to the store and treat those poor guys!!!

good luck!

beck
01-07-2003, 05:36 PM
Cannot find any of those products on u.k. web sites!Gonna take too long to get them from the states!Any branded products that contain metro in u.k.?Any suggestions?

bek

Carol_Roberts
01-07-2003, 09:46 PM
Hex is not causing the problems on the exterior of your discus. I believe this is merely another symptom of the stress your discus are undergoing right now. I think you need to address the water quality issue before jumping to another medication.

By all means order the metronidazole.

I think you need a hospital tank. Bare bottom, heater, sponge filter and start afresh.
Carol :heart1:

engineguy129
01-08-2003, 12:23 AM
Just a guess, but the white stringy things comming off your fish's skin could be the mucous membrane detatching from a bac infection. I wish you the best of luck.

Rob

beck
01-09-2003, 03:50 PM
Hi,
Things have gotten worse since i last posted a report.Today 2 discus have died! :'( ALL the other discus now have "sores" on them.They are all permanently black + have little control over themselves.
The first fish that showed the "funguns",has been getting eaten away!If it lasts any longer its not going to have any skin or fins left. :'(
I have added air to my tank now,not for any particular reason.Just to make sure there's enough in there.
The neon's are still un-affected! ??? i'm at a loss.
Tomorrow i'll be setting up a hospital tank,so i will then give the PP treatment some serious thort.My fish are already doomed. :'(

bek

Carol_Roberts
01-09-2003, 04:12 PM
I would dip them in a bucket of PP for 4 minutes prior to adding them to the hospital tank with fresh, aged water. Can you get any anti bacterial medication (gram negative) to put in the water like kanacyn or a penicillan derivitive?

Carol :heart1:

beck
01-09-2003, 05:02 PM
The best i can do is age the water for 24hrs!As for any med for the hospital tank,have to c wat LFS has got?Should be able to get something!
Wats the ratio of PP to water for a qwik dip?So many diff opions on how to use it.

thanx!

Carol_Roberts
01-09-2003, 05:19 PM
Here is a link to Dave Clubines site with a PP article taken from the "medication" section http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/master.htm
Carol :heart1:

beck
01-09-2003, 07:37 PM
Have just been on a couple of web sites reading up on "columnaris"! Hmmmmm!,symtoms very,very similar!Any thorts?

bek

Carol_Roberts
01-09-2003, 08:27 PM
You're looking at the fish Beck, we're just sitting here guessing ;) If you think columnaris go for it. You will find a treatment in the library or use the search function - get lots of salt on hand.

Carol :heart1:

peety
01-09-2003, 11:36 PM
Beck.
I am going through similar. I bagged a dead fish and took it to the vet (gotta be fresh or no go), or take a sick fish. Phone around, it took me about an hour to find someone who knew anything about fish. It cost me $30 to have my problem identified (see my post - dying fish).

I don't know if I can save the other fish I have yet (he's pretty sick) but at least I know what to use on my other fish that aren't showing any signs yet ...

Good luck
peety

beck
01-11-2003, 11:41 AM
hi,
I have started treatment of my fish today.I am limited to wat i can use by the availability of things here in very rural west wales.
I am using a salt dip mixed at 13tblspns - 10ltrs of water!(P.P. not available).
If you think i need 2 alter the dip ratio,pls let me no!
I've dipped them 2ice so far today,1st at 9am then at 3pm.Planning on 1 more at 8pm.Then i'll leave them overnite 2 grow their slime coat bak.I'll continue with the dipping at these intervals (unless you think i need 2 adjust) untill the fish look fine.

The fish now live in the hospital tank,which was sterile this morning.(has NO biological filter,only just bort tank!)The water in there contains "waterlife-myxazin",a broad spectrum bactericide + protoacide(all i could get again!!).

The fish are constantly black+not very happy.Their slime coat is coming off.
If you think any of the details above need adjusting,pls let me no.
Any thorts on feeding?They havnt realy eaten properly since i've had them.
4got 2 mention,the last 2 discus i introduced into my tank had black eyes!These to fish were the 1st to die!
I'm now down to 4 discus,found 1 dead this morn'.

bek

Carol_Roberts
01-11-2003, 03:29 PM
I hope all works out for the best.
Carol :heart1: