Automatic Water Change System

[BlueTurquoise]

It's me again, still investimagating stuff ;D

I have a new question regarding automatically dosing my storage tank with water ager. Basically I need a timed system to dose exact amounts at a certain time. Any ideas? Is there a machine that is out on the market that will do this? Or does anyone have any ideas how I can rig up something DIY style?

Sorry if there has already been a discussion on thsi topic beforehand...

Chong

[Ralph]

Investimawhatwho?
I'm not sure what you mean by a water ager. The people that I know that put additives in their water storage, do it one time when they refill it.
Please enlightenmagate me.

[BlueTurquoise]

Investimagate as in finding out stuff you know... ;D

Water ager, you know anti-chlorine, chloromine remover... the problem is I have chloromines in my tap water so I need to use water conditioner to remove them. No trace element additive needed for me, just got to neutralize the chloromines...

Chong

OK now I am investimgating you investimagation.. A bit edumacation for me as well? ;)

Curious, why do you need to time it? Am I missing something Chong?

Julz :)

[BlueTurquoise]

Sorry for not trying to explain but perhaps it might be better if I did then maybe you'd have advice for me.

Ok here is my plan for auto water change system. From the main tank at a certain time and for a certain time, a solenoid vavle will open along a siphon tube which will allow the filled tube to suck out water into a drain or garden. When it reaches certain level (timed inveral, at mounted and a safe height inside the tank to prevent total tank drainage) it stops.

Then a pump which is also on a timer in a storage container starts up and begins to pump aged, heated water from the storage container into the main tank. As the tank empties itself I can use a float valve system (like that detailed by daninthesand, which is designed to be used in a toilet) will open when the water level goes bellow a certain hieght, the storage container starts to refill itself automatically (as he says the flow rate of the float valve can be adjusted so that the mixing of new and aged water is negligeable.

This is the time (or after the storage container is full) i will need to dose the water with chloromine neutralizing conditioner and leave it to be heated and bubbled overnight ready for the next waterchange cycle.

Of course I would put in an overflow in the main tank and an overflow on the storage unit just in case. That is my grand scheme for automated water change. I have drawn lots of diagrams and stuff here on paper, i wish i could show you. What do you think?

I have solved nearly every problem with this system so far by searching already done solutions, and have edumacated myself lots on things such as to drill an overflow pipe into the top of the tank etc. All i need now is to figure out how to do this automated water conditioner dosage thingy. I foudn some really good leads from the link that DM posted in the DIY section. basically an air driven system with a reservior and a couple of one way check valves. ounds good to me (else I can buy a Dupla $AU700 LCD panel unit that can do it for me, NOT!)

I just wanted to investimagate further to see if there were any other cool systems or advice that I have not seen before. Else I will probably put together the air driven system this weekend.

Basically I told the wife that if I could get this thing going I'd not have to worry so much about water changes and not have to cart dripping buckets over our carpet every night. She is behind me 100% hehehe

Thanks for the interest Julz, could always count on you baby! ;)
Chong ;D

All I have to say is OH MY GOODNESS. :o

Sounds like quite the plan. I will sit back a bit now and learn.... Gotta Get Randal's attention, he will love this one....

Damn its good to see you back, Chong... ;)

Julz :)

[BlueTurquoise]

hehe thatnks Julz! it's good to be back. Yes no rest for the wicked, straight into a new fishy project for me lol. Well here is the plan! i drew it up on MS pain so bare with me but I will try to explain it:

Basically the solenoid timer on the main tank goes off first and starts to siphon water out. Then once this is done the sump pump in the storage container gets going and pumps the aged water into the main tank. When the storage water level drops below the float valve it gets going and starts to top up the storage container with new water. The rate of the float valve is slow so the mixing of new + old water is nelgeable (I hope!). Then the sump pump turns off after a certain time. The storage container then gets filled up (slowly over time, maybe 1 or 2 hours) and that is when the water ager dosage kicks in and deposits 20-40mls or whatever into the storage tank. The heater/air stone is constantly running (I will mount the heater right at the bottom to avoid it runninf dry I guess).

The overflows are in there in case of problems and I will try to get digital timers with battery backup so they are more accurate (down the the minute? or seconds I don't know yet).

So what do you think???
Chong

[BlueTurquoise]

Will it work???

[BlueTurquoise]

Here is the plan for the auto dosage system. Be warned this plan is plagurized and I didn't invent it!

Basically it works by air pumping water ager through the airline hoses to the storage tank. The air pump will have to work on a timer too so it turns on at the right time.

What do you think?

[BlueTurquoise]

So my questions then are

1) on the solenoid end (syphon part) will this work? is there another solution to this that is easier? I ahave never used solenoid before so I am nto sure how to hook it up, not even sure if I need to convert 240V to 12V or something... maybe you can advice me with product links...

2) is it necessary to dose the de-chlorimines when the storage tank is full or should I just do it at anytime?

3) is there a way to design the water ager dosage so that I can mount it above the storage tank and not have to worry about the siphon emptying the water ager tank? see if I mount with the feeder hose above the unit it will not siphon. But for convenience I want to mount the whole auto doser (heh) above the storage container... how can I do this and ensure that it doesn't just continually siphon everything out of the water ager reservior tank?

4) how do I drill holes in tanks??? I need to drill a hole for the overflow. How big is big enough?

erm... i will have more questions when I think of them...

[RandalB]

Ok Chong...
This is not necessarily my area of expertise, but Julz asked me to jump in...


In answer to your questions,

1)The only problem I see with the Siphon/solenoid idea is exactly timing the drain cycle. If the water level breaks the siphon before the timer cuts off, You'll have to reestablish it every time. Have you considered a pump rather than a siphon?A delivery demand pump with a solenoid and a level controller would probably work better If you can get them there.

2)If you want to dose the tank when it's full, you might want to have some kind of water movement to make sure the dosage spreads (I don't know how often you'll be changing water) as far as treating the water as it enters, an IV bottle filled with your Chloramine treatment might be an idea. Use a medical drip adjuster to sinc it to the water flow. This depends on how often you plan on changing water. If it is once per day, you can adjust for the additive to drip in over a 24 hour period and use a powerhead to mix the water. You can often find refillable IV bottles at science surplus stores.

3)See the above IV idea. You can mount a hook above the tank and have it gravity feed. Saves a few $$. If you want to be complex, I know there are several dosing pumps on the market that are completely digital and will do the drip rates for you. I prefer to homebrew it though as I am a Cheap SOB.

4) The overflow should at least be as big as the feed port on the float valve. If you think that is not enough, a 2" drainline should be enough for most residental water pressure.

Hope this helps, again this is not my speciality, maybe a plumber on the board can help out?

RandalB

[BlueTurquoise]

Randal,

thanks for the reply! I am very grateful and have been waiting eagerly!

The mixing part is not too difficult as I will have an airstone going all the time to stir and agitate the water. Is this enough or do I need a powerhead?

i see what you mean by breaking the siphon... maybe a pump is a better idea but I was hoping for the el cheapo method cuase I am also one cheapo SOB, LOL :D Actually I was planning to have the siphon intake at lower levels, say half way so that I can time it just well enough to get no more than half way. Having it not go all the way to the bottom is only a failsafe thing I guess.

But yes you are right, if the siphon is broken then things will get ugly! more investimagation on that area...

Is a 2" hole too big??? wow that is a huge hole... I am scared that if I drill that, I will need a new tank cause it will crack! is there any other non drilling solutions? will any of the overflow boxes dodats do the trick? Drilling sounds difficult, did I mention that I am also one lazy SOB too hehe...

Well as you can see it aint a perfect plan, I guess it will always be a work in progress. Wife loves the idea hehe

Chong

[Jason]

chong,

low-tech dosing use an i.v. bag drip type set-up.

high-tec use a peristalic dosing pump.

hth!

[Ralph]

There might be a problem with the main set up. I don't want to sound negative though, it is a very impressive system.
When the pump in the storage tanks starts pumping, almost right away the the float valve will open and tap water will start entering the storage tank. The pump will then be putting at least some tap water directly into your aquarium. I was trying to think of some kind of delay on the float valve but it might be better to go to a valve with a timer. Maybe I am missing something though.
No ideas on the dechlorinator. The problem is getting the exact number of drips. If the dechlorinator is diluted though, it becomes a different set up.
If none of this makes sense, it's because I just woke up.

I've been there & done that. I don't have chloramine in my water so I didn't have to worry about adding any Prime. And I just overflowed the tanks that I changed water in so I didn't worry about siphoning water first. But I was rarely, if ever, out of the house at the time all of this water changing took place. It would freak me out to thing that 100's of gallons of water were draining & refilling while I was gone so I did it first thing in the morning so I was always there. What I'm getting at is start simpler and complicate it as your need dictates. Start by just tossing in some Prime sometime during the day before the next water change. If it is common that you forget or are out for more than a day at a time then try to automate that, otherwise it's a lot of work for little gain. And it sounds like you're going from using buckets to fully automated. It would make more sense to start with a holding tank and a pump and drain & fill manually for awhile. Then start automating each step. Drill the hole(s) in the tank(s) for overflow, overflow the tanks for water changes, then automate the siphoning of the tank prior to refilling, etc.

In the end you'll probably find that you're gaining little going from a simple system to a fully automated system. For instance if you just drilled your tanks like Mike Wells' system where you just open or turn a pipe and it empties... go eat your breakfast... then turn on a pump and refill and you're done the benefits of automating all of that are minimal. And don't forget you still have to siphon the tank bottom daily and the best time to do that is while you're doing a water change.

Dave

[RandalB]

Chong,
I didn't realize that you were talking about glass holding tanks. I thought you had a plastic one. 1" would probably be sufficient. I recommended a 2" based on plastic. Ralph and Dave both have good points too. I would personally use a Powerhead rather than an airstone , it would give a better mix.


RandalB

[BlueTurquoise]

I see. No the holding tank most likely will be plastic but i meant the 2" hole in the main tank for overflow sounded abit big. Also about the float vavle going off at the same time as the storage tank starts to empty, I was following advice given by daninthesand regarding these float vavles. Basically he was saying that if you turned the flow rate of the float valve to a small capacity then the amount of tap water that gets pumped into the main tank during this time is negligeable. I can live with a small bit of tap water, no problem. Basically the holding tank takes awhile to fill (it sounds like it does it over several hours). By then a higher capacity pump would have already evacuated most of the water and the timer turns it off long before the float valve fills too much. does half of that even make sense?

Dave, thanks for that great bit of advice. You are right, I am probably thinking way too quickly ahead from buckets straight to automated. I guess my point of view was to start with small parts of the total cycle (like the storage tank part with float valve etc first, then go from there as I see fit or as required. I probably would not have time or to dare do the lot in one go.

Also one thing I wanted to add, I would most likely time everything to start when I am at home (sometime at nightabout 7-8pm) that way I can oversee it's opperation.

As for the IV thing, I am in luck as I have many doctor friends. I will ask them for an IV regulator drip thingy and see how I go...

Thanks for all your help guys, if you can think of anythign else let me know. I will post my progress as I go.

Chong

[Ralph]

A slow incoming flow on the float valve should take care of that problem.
What a massive undertaking, I hope it works out for you, it will sure take the pain out of those daily water changes.

[BlueTurquoise]

Massive, you bet. I don't even know where to start!

I will go out and buy a 60 - 80L square garbage bin today (as apposed to 2x25L buckets, back breaking I tell ya!, square cuase that's the only type that will fit in the space) and I will recieve my pump via courier today too. That's a start I guess. I will look into hoses to the balcony as well.

Thanks for all your advice I will let you know how I go!

Chong

[BlueTurquoise]

Inline valve timer:

I went to a supermarket (not Kmart but similar) and they sell a garden watering timer that runs on batteries. Basically you set it to 24/48/72 hour, up to 1 week etc before one opperation goes off, then another dial controls how long the opperation runs for. Smallest time is 1min then 5 mins, 10, 15 etc. This is the basic model for $AU18 and connects directly inline with a hose.

I could easily use this to control the water removing siphon end of the design if I didn't use a pump. Better yet it could replace the storage tank pump if I ran it on gravity fed system (storage tank higher than main tank). hmmm very intersting, esp for the price.

There is an electronic model for AU$68 which can be set at 1 min increments.

Hey hey I found the link! but these guys are expensive!
http://www.hardwareshop.com.au/details.asp?prodid=1165&cat=16&path=2,128,16

Chong

[BlueTurquoise]

Still investimagating, thought I'd update ya's.

I went to hardware warehouse (Bunnings!) last night (I dragged Jenny along too poor girl) anyway all they have is the brass ball float valve for toilets (the long handle and a floating tennis ball shaped piece at the end of it.)

The other interesting thing they had was a AU$26 float valve for toilets. A simple thing with a floating box that runs up a PVC tube as the tank gets filled, When the floating "box" reaches a certain height the water is cut off. Nice! the problem is that it is bottom mounted (ie, the screw on part is supposed to be at the bottom of the tank as per normal toilets) that's no good as that will mean I will have to have my tank raised off the ground and drilled from the bottom. hmmm... I am going to have to research further, perhaps visits a plumbing supply shop to see whether they have side mountable compact units like daninthesand describes.

To the Bat Mobile!
Chong

[Ralph]

We have evaporative coolers for the houses here in Arizona. The input water line has a cut off valve with a float on it that I think would be perfect for you. The problem though is that you live in Australia! You might ask around though.

[BlueTurquoise]

yeah i haev seen boat bilge float valves that can electronically turn a pump on but I am really looking for a mechanical unit.

Anyway I am sure you guys would send me one if i paid for postage as well right?? ;D

Chong

[scottwheels]

G'day Chong, nice to see you back. Let me say I investigated the auto water change thingy, using mini float valves and solenoids purloined from old washing machines. Since I don't have chloramines, my plan was to put a carbon filter on my water line and solenoids on an auto-syphon for a drain and on the main water line for fill. The idea was that while one solenoid was on, the other was off and vice versa. In terms of water distribution, it got too complicated and I ended up designing it to change all my tanks at once. Temperature was an issue, so I was going to do 10% water changes per day. then there was where to get cheap timers. I even looked at Dick Smiths for kit timers. I haven't abandoned to idea, but I ended up using a "semi-automatic" system similar to the one that Dave C uses. Open a valve to drain, and then close that and open another one to fill. It works quite well, but there is no safety for overflows. Also the cat (!) chewed holes in my drain line, so I was wondering why the dining room kept flooding every time I did a WC.

You can use toilet float valves - just put a bend in the steel bar and there you go! However, if you go to a plumbing shop, they have mini float valves that are 100% polyurethane, so no worries about immersing metals in your tank water. Also, I think they have side-mount ones also. Just FYI.

Cheers, Scott

[BlueTurquoise]

Dang, to the Bat Mobile to the local plumbing shop!!!

well i got one tank only (2 if you count the hospital tank) so I won't have multiple tank problem. The valve idea is fantastic I can get that going tongiht!

Thanks for that, hugely valuable info. Will let you know how i go!
Chong

[scottwheels]

I mentioned this elsewhere on the forum, but I thought I'd post it here as well: Hydroponics shops are an untapped resource for the DIY aquarist. Not only do they have pumps, piping, valves and fittings, but they also have heaters, aerators and grow lights (fluoro and MH/LPS) No compact fluorescent though - not available in Oz (Yet?!).

Cheers, Scott

[BlueTurquoise]

Cool! I went to the local hydroponics just then and they had good stuff but they didn't have an auto float valve. I went to a nearby plumbing warehouse and picked up a Fluidmaster all plastic side mountable float valve.

http://www.fluidmaster.com/float_products_intl_747.html

Comes with great instructions and looks like it will work well. All for AU$22! cool!

I will now go and buy a holding tank (found a 60L one at bunnings for $30) and start drilling! hehe

Cheers Scott. Next I will look at ball valves, pumps and timers...
Chong

[kevster]

Maybe this will give you some ideas

[kevster]

Smaller square container gets the r/o water and has a float valve. When its full float valve shuts off r/o unit. 2 round containers get the waster water. There is an $18 pump in each container. They are plugged into 2 timers. Every morning first the waste water pump comes on and pumps to the fry tanks. About 10 minute later the r/o water gets pumped to the breeders As soon as the water level drops the r/o unit comes on to produce more water. I have drip valve to regulater the water into the tanks and also large valve if I want to do it quick. Tanks on left all get r/o water, on right get waste water. Presto! All automated

[kevster]

Once every other day I siphon off waste ad thats it for water changing

[daninthesand]

Chong.

I have been using a device now for about six months and so far it is flawless. Check out this link where I go over the details.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3467;sta rt=0

You might find a use for it. It can be used with any storage container (even glass) without drilling a hole through the side. It can simply be placed in through the top of the container and hung in the water at whatever height you decide. Just make sure it stays at a specific height (depth). It senses the depth of the water (pressure). It works at any angle and is adjustable with a little screw.


Daniel

[BlueTurquoise]

Kev, thanks for those pics! very cool setup! I don't need RO so it is straight tap for me on the feed end. I think it is simpler than your system but I am very impressed! wow how long did it take you to set taht up?

Daniel, yeah I have been referring to that post of yours regularly for the past 2 weeks! I can't get a hold of taht unit anywhere. Doesn't matter as I have found a very simple side mounted float valve which will do just that but requires drilling my plastic container. No biggy so long as it works!

I am now trying to retrofit thsi unit to my existing tap setup , I have a few problems with space but I think I can work it out. When I do I will post you pics on what it turns out to look like. Already I have saved alot of time and back breaking work with just hoses and pumps! phew! can't wait to partially automate it!

Thanks for the advice guys. Me learning lots! :book: :idea2:
Chong

[kevster]

Those last 2 pics came out terrible so I just wanted to put them up better.

[kevster]

and the last one

[BlueTurquoise]

Wow what a setup you got there Kev! nice, i wish I had enough space...

When you say a timer goes off to pump in waste water, are they those PVC tubes that sit halfway up the tank? so does the pump drain only up to that level? Does the pump every run dry? What type of failsafe's do you have? ie overflows incase something goes wrong?

Thanks for the posts Kev

[BlueTurquoise]

Hey Kev you may know this,

do you drill your own tanks? Can you tell me exactly what I need to do and how to do it in simple steps? Do you need to reinforce the glass with wood or something before you drill? or is there other ways of doing it? I have no idea...

Chong

[kevster]

Chong
The tanks are all drilled and the pvc in the tank goes up to about 1 inch from the top of the tank.. the pump is an $18 submersible pump i got online and is plugged into a $6.00 timer you get at home depot. The timers is on for an hour and yes it pumps then right down to the bottom of the container but once it starts sucking air it can't get all of the water so its still sitting in about 2 inches of water. I have overflows on all three containers (1 r/o water and 2 waste water. ) Once the water level on the r/o water container is almost full that float valve shuts off the r/o unit so no more water flowing. If the float valve failed it the r/o unit would keep producing water but it would all overflow to a drain.

Now as for drilling tanks. Very easy. You have to buy a diamond drill bit for about $45.00. Then I got a piece of styrafoam about 2 inches thick and sat the tank on that. Put a little water in the tank about 1/4 inch. Get a piece of wood or plexiglass about any size will do as long as it fits in your tank. a 6 in by 6 in is good. Drill a hole in that first. This is a guide hole. Now position the guide hole piece in your tank where you want the hole. Start drilling the hole. About 10 secounds is all you need and then you can stop and remove the guide hole. When I 1st started drilling tanks I tried to put equal pressure on the drill as it made the hole. That was WRONG. It was taking me about 10 minutes to drill a tank. I realized if you kind of tipped the drill or kind of move it in a circular motion putting pressure on different areas you could drill a hole in about 25 secounds. I did crack a few tanks when I 1st started but after I started moving the drill around I didn't break one. I got brave enough to drill a 70 gallon tank 3/4 full of water with a cordless drill

Later
kev

[BlueTurquoise]

Wow. ok... I will have to think hard about that one... I only want to drill 1 tank...

I am looking into hang on the back overflows. Do they work? i suppose provided that it was a big enough to empty the capacity that my pump was pumping in. hmm will have to work on this one a little.

Thanks for the info. No doubt I will have more questions for you very soon. Hope you don't mind!

Chong

[kevster]

For 1 tank thats probaly the way to go, You can make them yourself and just use 1 1/4 in pvc as it looks like the ones the sell are 3/4 in pvc.
Later time to hit the hay.

[BlueTurquoise]

Thanks Kev. Go to sleep!

When you wake up: how does hang on the back's work??? if the water level drops and the siphon is broken then how does it work when the tank starts to overflow??? :inquisitive: confused...

Chong

[Jason]

Kev,

nice set up! are you just setting the hot/cold mix with the valves, or useing a thermostaticly controlled device?

what happens if someone has a shower??

[kevster]

Chong
I haven't used one I just read what other people have said.
But if the siphon fails your in trouble. There is a thread somewhere that I read about making your own

If I see it L will send you the link
kev

[kevster]

Jason

I am just using the valves. Cold is open all the way for full pressure and hot is open about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn to bring temp up to 82. You must use check valves because the higher pressure from the cold could back feed into the hot water pipe without them. Timers are set to do changes at about 9 am so right now kids are in school, wifes at work and I am at work so no ones using water. And anyway even if someone did take a shower and the temp fluctuated a little bit the water goes into containers with heaters so it really would't matter. I am told the r/o unit works better with the warmer water also
later
kev

[Jason]

gotcha cool, thanks

[BlueTurquoise]

Thanks Kev, you are a library of info!

I have researched the box overflows and they are definately not failsafe. If the siphon breaks then they are usless. But if the siphon is engaged then it will start removing water full time. So the only answer is that I drill my tank.

Chong

[scottwheels]

Hey Chong, have you thought of autosyphons? There was a post a little while back on the subject, and some of the members here use them. The basic principle is that you never break the syphon, the upper and lower water levels are dictated by the outlet levels on your autosyhon.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/f4a19a6a/bc/My+Photos/__hr_autosyphon.jpg?bcf5zI.AL6_3AQoM

This diagram shows the upper and lower level setpoints. Once the solenoid valve is energised, the water will only flow to the level indicated. The syphon retains water because the inlet is still below the surface. You cannot overfill, since water will keep syphoning out once the upper level is reached. I don't use one personally since I never got around to timers and solenoid valves. When we get our 8 foot tank however... That's another story! ;D ;D HTH.

Cheers, Scott

[BlueTurquoise]

Scott,

Thanks mate! I will look into it! interest level 11 out of 10!
Chong

[BlueTurquoise]

Ingenius!!! that's a fantastic design!!! cool! no more drilling required!

now.. how to make it... :)

[shootingstar]

Daninthesand,

I have one question for you, by looking at the picture that you have for the peerless or fillpro ballcock, where is outlet for the water to come out ?

thanks

[Lance_Krueger]

Chong Ly,
I've been thinking about automating my fishroom for a long time. But I've got a standalone 200 gallon BB full of adults that's totally away from my fish room, and have thought about using the Safety Siphon (Model #JSSSP) from Jehmco to empty it:
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/HARDWARE_/Safety_Siphon_Aquarium_Drain/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html
You'd have to make sure it wouldn't move up or down, or accidentally fall to the bottom of your tank and empty it. I thought I'd put it on a timer to automate the draining part, and angle it to where it did a 50% water change (or whatever amount you decide to do) once a day (or as many times as your timer will allow). This will keep you from having to drill your tank. For a single, stand alone tank, I would think this is the way to go.
For filling the tank after the Safety Siphon empty's part of your tank, you could just have a pump (like a Mag Drive) that sits on the bottome of your collection barrel on a timer. It could fill the tank back up a half hour or so after the Safety siphon empties it. You would just want to make sure the collection barrel capacity is about the same amount as the water you're taking out. You can set up a float valve for the incoming water (like the Fillpro/Peerless), and adjust it to the exact amount of water you need. If you want to make sure it doesn't overflow, you could hook up an "autosiphon" described above, which should cover you if your calculations are a bit off. When you get it adjusted, then you could take out the temporary autosiphon, or leave it just in case something wrong happens. I would set up the timer on the refill pump to run a little bit longer than the time it takes to drain the water aging barrel. Since half of the pump will be sitting in water, it won't heat up at all, especially if it's only running for a few minutes. Same goes for the powerhead on the end of the safety siphon in the tank.
Just some thoughts,
Lance Krueger

[Lance_Krueger]

Chong Ly,
Another doser you might consider is the Kent Aquadoser, which is the same concept as the IV bottles, but much larger capacity and very cheap. See it at http://www.kentmarine.com/aquadose.html
Don't know how exact this is to give you precise amounts of de-chloraminator, though. It's mainly used by saltwater people for dosing Kalkawasser, etc.
The other option is to use an automatic fish feeder to deliver premeasured amounts of dry de-chloraminator, such as Chloram-X (also available at Jehmco). I use it and love it. Plus it's extremely cheap. Don't know if it's available in Australia, though.
Lance Krueger

[BlueTurquoise]

Lance,

This is extremely helpful information!!! thanks so much for posting it! I will have to investigate it thoroughly. My main problem at the moment is finding a drain to drain the water to... there isn't one anywhere arounf the tank and the only 2 options I have are to run a permanent hose out to my balcony (which is impossible as it means I have to keep the door open at all times) or a drain in the middle of my laundry floor...

Anyway thanks for the leads, I will look them up, I esp like the AquaDose, it is IDEAL!

Chong

[DRRACING]

Chang,

I had a thought, I don't know if it is doable but it is worth further imvestimagation. You could use an irrigation timer and irrigation valves. In your storage tank, you could have a submersable pump that runs all the time with a bypass to recycle the water back into the storage tank when the fill valve is closed. This would aid inaggitating any additives into the storage tank. On the drain side, if is a gravity syphon type drain, you would just have to time to see how long to keep the valve open, likewise the fill side. Due to the nature of the irrigation timer, the fill valve would not open till the drain valve is closed. The only chance of overflow I see would be if the water pressure changed but this danger could be eliminated with a pressure valve. May not work but I think it warrants further investigation.

Hope it helps,
Bob

[DRRACING]

Sorry Chong,
got the name wrong....

[DRRACING]

Here is a link to an irrigation timer on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2308076109&category=20 542

[BlueTurquoise]

Yes I have seen the irigation timers and have investimagated the possibility. The way it is now though (10 mins or less to do 25gal water change) without breaking my back, I think my system will do for my one measly tank.

The amount of work it will take to automate this entire setup will not substantiate the time/effort saved so I won't do anything else to the system. Unless I upgrade to multiple tanks then I will think about it.

Thanks for the info and effort.

Are you looking to automate? I have lots of good info for you if you are

Chong

[DRRACING]

Chong,

Yes, I am looking to automate. My plan is for 4 - 80gal tanks and 1 180gal tank.

Any info you could share would be helpful.

Thanks,
Bob

[BlueTurquoise]

Check out Mike Wells' setup. If I were starting again I would do the bulkhead drilling with standpipe thing. It is a very good idea, adjustable water drainage height.

I would use a simple garden timer to start your siphon of the tanks. Just get a cheap analogue version as these are cheaper, and you really don't need to be too accurate as all it needs to do is start the siphon to expell water and it will only drain to a certain level anyway (if you are using Mike Wells' bulkhead/standpipe setup).

I would then look at a sump pump on a regular electrical outlet timer to pump water out of the storage container. The pump starts at a certain time, ends at a certain time. If you cannot find a accurate timer (digital is best) then try using a pressure valve to compensate for the lack in timing accuracy. ie if your timer onyl does 1 min intervals, just reduce the flow of the pump using comination of adjustable pump flow and a valve to control the flow rate so that it is slower and therefore more accurate.

For your storage tank refill, look at Daninthesand's float valve solution. you can also use toilet float valves. Again use pressure to control how slowly the storage gets filled. The slower the better as it the storage tank will start to refil as the water gets pumped out of it into the main tanks.

Then I would think about installing an overflow to the drain for both your storage tank and your main tanks as a failsafe. Also look at PVC and how you can use this effectively throughout your system. It moves water faster than regular 3/4 inch hoses etc.

The last thing to think about is water conditioner (if you need it like me who has chloromines in tao water). For this I would say use a medical IV drip system.

Feel free to ask me to clarify any of these things. Sorry for the briefness of the info...

Chong

[FishHead]

http://waynesworldangelfish.com/automated_water_changes.htm

I'll be happy to answer anyones questions regarding my set up.

-Wayne

[ronrca]

:thumbsup:

[BlueTurquoise]

Thanks Wayne! :thumbsup:

Chong

[Discus Dreams]

I notice your first post about a machine which will be able to dose chlorine remover into the storage tank. I will check the manufactuer's name but I believe it is called osmonics they have a device that does that very thing and releases timed doses of liquid chemical.

[datsnotacarp]

Hello fellow country-man
Chong, have you seen or maybe your missus buys these
air oudourizers called ambi pure ,? well they use this unique manual doseage devise you control. You plug it in the wall or in your case a timer ....maybe you can get some ideas on how to change the liquid.You can also vist the csrio and get a specially mixed pressurised fluid to your tailor(custom made)hope this is some help! ;D

[Keystonediscus]

Ive seen a complicated system design which John over at Jemco was working on for some Doctor's 250 gal discus tank. sounded like what your looking to build Chong. It has a series of selenoids conected to each water supply each would turn the water supply on off at certain levels in the tank. there was about three fluid level sensor valves hooked to selenoids one would alow tap to enter the tank to a certain level and shut off then the ro unit would fill the rest of the way the the last sensor would start the pump to pump all the water into the tank the tank would have had over flows to take out excess water as the tank filled. Try giving him a shout and see what he can rig up it was a pretty impressive system.

[GeeCharron]

I luv this stuff on water changing and filtering. Keep it coming people. Great reading.

[dmacch]

Chong,
I find what you are doing very interesting and exciting. I think I may have a solution for the problem of refilling the storage tank. Instead of using a float valve why not use a selonoid valve, the type used on sprinkler systems. The valve would be hooked up to a timer which you can synchronize to turn on when the pump going to the tank shuts off. It really doesn't have to be synchronized as long as it turns on after the storage tank is empty.

Dom

[zfish]

Dom,
I have done this very thing. I used a lawn irrigation control box and a couple of rainbird valves from Lowes. The lawn irrigation box can do six valves so it can expand in the future. I can post a picture if anyone is interested. The water then goes into a 100 gallon horse tank I bought as a supply store. In order to stop the water when it is full I added a simple float valve farmers use to keep their stock tanks from overflowing, I think it cost $13. The system is nothing short of fantastic and works like clockwork.
I also solved the fishtank draining problem with a very simple but efficient system. I installed a small powerhead in the tank that hangs about 1/3 of the way from the top. It is connected to a hose that runs out of the tank then down. I purchased a digital timer that kicks on the powerhead for one minute. This starts a siphon action that will continue after the powerhead stopsuntil the tank is 1/3 empty.
I have a seperate digital timer that kicks on a pump to fill the fish tank about 30 minutes later. I do this in two seperate incriments so as not to stress the fish. The tank is drilled with an overflow in case it overfills or if the powerhead fails to work.
Later in the day the storage tank fills automatically. All I do is add dechlorinator. As a safety mechanism, I have a carbon filter that kicks on at night which would remove the chlorine if I forget to add dechlorinator.
Its an awesome system. It took me quite a few months to figure out. Before doing so, I sold all my discus because I wanted to do it right and start over. I purchased some a couple of months ago and they have had water changes every day without fail.
Every component costs around $15 to $20 with the exception of the sprinkler valve control box which cost arount $50. I had to look around for this because I had to find one that would control each valve totally seperately.
With this system I could mix RO and tap water in any ratio I want. It also fills my african cichlid tanks by sending water through a carbon filter to remove chlorine then directly into the tanks.
Zfish

[ronrca]

Wow! Your system sounds sweet. Of course I want to see some pics please! ;)
About your storage container. How much and how big is it?

Thanks for sharing!

[LEM504]

zfish,
Please post picures!

Larry

[zfish]

OK, Folks. First chance I get I will take some photos and do further posts.
Zfish

[zfish]

OK, I have taken some photos and I am ready to post. However, my photo files are around 400KB each and I can only post 85KB. Any suggestions?
zfish

[Denny]

use your photo software to resize the pictures. I usually resize them to 640x480 and then they are small enough

[zfish]

Ok, Here we go. A water siphon is started with a small pump. This is a rio, but any will do.

[zfish]

The pump is kicked on for one minute by a digital timer. After the water is down to the level of the pump, the siphon is broken and the tank can fill.

[zfish]

Here is the water fill system. I had a plumber do a hot and cold copper water line down so I could hook in with pvc. Water comes in from the upper right hand corner. The two top red valves are used to permanently set the water temperature. The box on left is the control box. The two big black valves are sprinkler valves. I got the type that are adjustable for water flow. The top valves releases water to a carbon filter then the water dumps directly into african cichlid tanks. I use ZeoCarb from Hagan which will take out all the chlorine if you go slow enough.
The lower valve releases water into a storage tank for discus. The red valve below that is a manual valve I can use for other purposes

[zfish]

Here is a close up of the connection from the copper to the pvc. The yellow valves shut off the water to the whole system. The two vertical brass pieces are one way flow valves. These are very important since the water is left permanently on. Otherwise hot water would backflow into your houses cold water and visa versa, making for interesting showers. Also, you must use hot water type pvc. The water sprinkler valves cannot be used for hot water, but the mixed warm water is OK.

[zfish]

Here is the shut off valve used to stop the water when the tank is full. I got this from a farmer supply store for $13. This is how farmer's keep their stock tanks from running over. I set the water sprinkler valve to also shut off shortly after the tank is full. You can also do an over flow drain for added protection. The hoses you see go to a carbon filter. This is for aeration and also, the carbon filter removes chlorine in case I forget to add chlorine remover.

[zfish]

The last part of the system is just a big rio pump connected to a timer. The timer kicks the pump on to fill the tank. You can see the tubing. comming out of the tank in the earlier photo of the water fill system and the other end of the tubing in the first photo. The fish tank has an overflow in case it runs to long. This photo is of the electrical by the storage tank. The first timer kicks on the pump. The second timer kicks on the carbon filter. I have it timed so the carbon filter is off when the tank fills and for a few hours after. This gives me time to add dechlorinator so I don't use up the carbon by having it take out the chlorine.

[LEM504]

A couple of dumb questions about your system.

Will the valves - sprinkler valves - water tank shut off valve - work at low pressure?
In other words, would they be reliable at the low pressure from a pond pump, or do they require normal house plumbing pressure.?

Power heads.
My number one complaint with power heads, is re-priming them, after a water change.
If the water level gets below the power head, air gets trapped in the power head, and you have to turn them upside down, to bleed the air out. ( at least on the ones I have )

Will they operate properly, if they are turned on their side, or upside down? Will this damage them - assuming they are not operated dry?
If they were mounted on their side, or upside down, they would be self priming.
( the air could escape, when the water level reached them )

Thanks
Larry

[zfish]

Larry,
The sprinkler valves will not work with pump pressure. I tried this but it does not work. You must have house water pressure behind it.
The rio pump I am using to start a siphon out of the tank is actually a small submersable pump and not a powerhead. I think a powerhead would work so long as the intake is sloped downward to allow for self priming. However, a powerhead is not sealed like a pump, so it might not self prime as well. You would just have to try and see. I only run it long enough to start the siphon, so it is never running dry. I once had a big rio submersable pump that was sitting in water run dry for 12 hours with no apparent damage.
Zfish

[zfish]

I would like to add a comment about automating dosing of a dechlorinator. It seemed to me like the two choices are either to go cheap and risk failure, or to spend a lot of money on an expensive dosing system. The problem is that in the event of failure, you can kill your bio filter if not the fish. A sytem like mine, will take 90% of the hassle out of water changing. It takes only a minute to add dechlorinator, and your going to be in your fish room everyday anyway, feeding your fish if nothing else. I decided the carbon filter as a back up would serve to protect against forgetting to add dechlorinator.
Having said all that, if you could dose automatically you could change your water without even walking into your fishroom.
zfish

[ronrca]

;) Very nice zfish! Thanks for the pics and explanation!

Just a question though!

The sprinkler valves will not work with pump pressure. I tried this but it does not work. You must have house water pressure behind it. I have heard the same and wonder if you would use a powerful enough pump, could you make the sprinkler valves work. In my system, I use Mag 9 pumps that drain the sumps. Will a Mag 9 pump create enough pressure for the valve to work?

[zfish]

ronrca,
The pump I used was a mag 5 so it was a little smaller. I feel it is unlikely a mag 9 would do it. Also, it takes a certain amount of pressure for the valve to close properly.

[LEM504]

About the sprinkler valves not working at low pressure.
Don’t know how you would tie it into an automatic system, but try a livestock water tank shut off. They are cheap - just bought one for my holding tank, and it works great.
They are nothing but a metal box, to hold the hose, ( and deflect the water down ) and a float with a rubber washer that closes the end of the hose.
With a little modification on the metal bracket, to prevent metal contact with the glass,
They would work great on tanks. Small enough to just hang on the inside.
You could stick one in each tank, or just move it when a tank is full.
No more wet floors. Check it out! Bet you can come up with something that works!

Larry

PS They range in price from $10 to $25. I got the cheap one. Couldn’t see any difference in the $25 ones. The ones I looked at were all made by Little Giant. They would work under any pressure, unless it was too high.

[CanadianGuy]

I haven't read thru all of the pages for this thread so if someone already mentioned this I apologize.

If you want to dose something at certain times get a Peristaltic Pump and put it on a timer. They are used by doctors and hospitals for dosing meds and are extremely accurate. The best part is that whatever fluid you are pumping never comes in contact with anything outside of the tubing. That's whay it's safe for meds and blood and such.

You can buy either stand alone pumps or you can get old medical units pretty cheap. They are used by SW hobbyists.

Hope this helps!

[zfish]

CanadianGuy,
Exactly how would you go about getting one of these pumps? How much would it cost? The pumps I found online looked very expensive.
Zfish

[CanadianGuy]

http://www.clarksol.com/html/prodspecsM045Pump.htm

These are just the bare pumps. Most people put them in hobby boxes that you can get a Radio Shack for just a few bucks. Or you could just cut out a hole on a piece of wood and mount it that way. I think these particular pumps run around $50-60us...you might be able to find some cheaper on Ebay tho...

hope this helps!

James

[LEM504]

Someone was looking for an automatic doser.

I found this quite by accident- maybe it will work

http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=28547;category_id=2241

I don't have a clue - if it works

Larry

[zfish]

LEM504,
I took a close look at this item and I believe it will work. I plan to order it and try it out in the next few weeks. I will let you know how it works. Zfish

[ronrca]

Zfish,
Where did you find the one way valves? Ive looked at Home Depot and a couple of other places and they all give me a blank look when I ask for one way valves! Maybe Im not asking by the right name.

[zfish]

These can be found at Lowe's. They are copper, but can be fitted to pvc. Go to the pvc area then try one row over. It should be close. Also, be sure to mount them vertically so to be sure they will close. Zfish

[LEM504]

Don't know which valve you are asking about.
I think all of his valves are just lawn sprinkler valves.

You might also look at this.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=19;action=display;threadid=16770

I'm using these on the tanks and barrel to shut off the water. Work great, but not an automatic system.

Larry

[ronrca]

Zfish,
Thanks! I guess I'll just have to look harder! LOL!

Larry,
Im looking for valves that are used on the 1/2" water line because when mixing hot/cold together, you need a one way valve to stop the mixing of water when showering also! ;)

[LEM504]

Sorry - I can't help you on this one.
I would think that any good plumbing store, would have an expert who can help you.
Don't worry about the pipe size. They have tons of adaptors that will go to larger or smaller pipe, or plastic.

You might also ask in the garden supply departments. Some of the automatic plant watering systems are getting very high tech.

I would think you are looking for a simple ball check valve. Should be cheap - :-\

Larry

[zfish]

Larry,
That's what I'm talking about. Go to post 75 with the photo. The vertical brass pieces toward the right side of the photo are one-way valves so the hot and cold won't mix. You can get them at Lowe's just one isle over from the pvc pieces. You can also get pvc one way valves, but I think the brass are better.
Zfish

[ronrca]

Yahoo! I found the check valves on Saturday! I wasnt really even looking for them, just browsing to see what is available and lo and behold, check valves, brass, 1/2"! So I bought them and installed them right away (Boy do I love bowpex). I was not looking in the right area for these check valves. They were in the motor/sump/pump section instead of the house plumbing. ;)

Thanks~

[LEM504]

I can relate to your valve problem! It is frustrating as hell, to spend half an hour, searching in a store for something you know they sell. The sales clerks either don’t know what you are looking for, or where to find it.

A large hardware chain store opened here. They had Everything! Life was going to be wonderful. Then they were bought by a larger company. Seems like once a month, a new salesman walks in - yanks the current products and puts his in. The quality goes down, prices go up, and they drop the slow moving products. Most of the things you want in a hardware store are gone.

I went back to the old family owned store. You can walk in, ask for a shinny thing for water, that goes on a piece of white pipe, close to the water heater - and they will pull it off the shelf. Also found the prices are usually better. I have sent my wife to this store, for something I couldn’t describe, and they always send her back with the right thing!
That alone - is worth double the price! :)

Glad you are up and running!

Larry

[zfish]

I did go ahead and purchase the Eheim Liquidoser. It is designed to deliver Eheim fertilizer on a consistant basis. It works by way of a rotating drum. The drum can rotate up to 8 times per day. According to Eheim the product delivers 1 ml fertilizer per rotation. Therefore, you could dose 8 ml of fertilizer per day.
My experiments showed that the amount of tap water conditioner it delivers varies depending on the type you use. The thicker it is the less that comes out. I am currently using the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals brand which is very thick. The Liquidoser can only deliver a total of 4 ml. in 8 rotations. Since one teaspoon equals 5 ml and one teaspoon treats 100 gallons, I can treat about 80 gallons per day. The drum hold 50 ml which is ten teaspoons, so I could treat 1000 gallons without refilling. So if I treated 50 gallons a day I could maybe streatch it out to 20 days.
I also feel the drum will need to be emptied and cleaned with some consistancy since dechlorinator dries out and becomes sticky and even thicker which could effect how well it works. But I know for sure I can go 10 days without doing so Also, I have found that with my water I can remove chlorine with only about half the recommended dose, so this is another variable.
With a thinner water conditioner, it delivered more that twice as much. I also found that there is some variation in how much it delivers, so you have to build in a little safety margin.
Bottom line is that I feel this is a very reliable way to dechlorinate your water every day. A more expensive delivery system would be more precise, but for most hobbyists this would work real well. In an earlier post, I poo-pooed the need for auto dosing of dechlorinator, but now that I have it I think it is fantastic. I now have a system that reliably changes my water, even if I never enter the fish room!
Zfish

[jay43452]

this thread is great!!the problem is after work the daily water changes didn't leave much time for "family"time so i,ve been thinking about automation for some time and with all these ideas maybeI'll get it done and get back to the family ;)

[ronrca]

;) I hear you! My wife had gotten upset at me when wc's would take an hour plus. I did 2 things. First one was do the wc's in the mornings and second, bigger pipes, bigger pumps! ;) Now I can do it in 20mins. ;D

[Smokey]

Sometimes bigger IS better.
Ron
You are doing the w/c on the sumps. [??].

[sacramento]

Hi:
I want to share the simplicity off my automation system water.This is my first setup to my 2 tanks.Later I want add more a few tanks in my fish room!

The fish room:

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_5.jpg

[sacramento]

The side view off the fishroom:

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_6.jpg

[sacramento]

The filters with three segments:

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_1.jpg

[sacramento]

The view off the wacth wich I controller the flow off the water.A simply gardner watch with a single battery 9V.

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_2.jpg

[sacramento]

The first setup off two tanks

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_3.jpg

[sacramento]

Annother view off the sump and they dreynage system

http://www.megagaleria.com/pictures/Pic_1920_4.jpg

[ronrca]

Very nice! ;) Good job!

Can you show me more though? ;D Im not sure how you are draining/filling automaticly. Im getting geared up to automate my fishroom and all the tips I can get would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[sacramento]

Hi:
The images show the way to put water in the sump...to put out the water I use a litlle pump inside off the sump with a electrical watch programmed to daily put in work the pump.The pump connects to a tube,to empty the water I pretend.First I empty the tanks through the pump,and then +/- 15 minutos later the water start to fill the tank.Very easy,without any sophisticated system.

Later I post new photos!

Best regards

[ronrca]

For months now I have been planning on testing out this sprinkler solenoid valve and finally yesterday I did (now I only wish I had done it sooner >:( ).

First the background on my system:
- 250G storage tank with 2" PVC running around the perimeter of the room
- Aquamaster 2400 (can you guess what its for)
- at each sump location, the 2" reduces down to 1" ball valves
- I can fill multiple 40G sumps in under a minute

How the s-valve works:
-***the valve opens when there is power. Power must be on to keep the valve on
-***the valve is closes when there is no power

What I want to achieve is a good flow rate so I compared the flows rates with the s-valve to that of the flow rate with just straight pipe (nothing hindering the flow like flow valves).

I only tested the fill system so far. My first test was just connecting the s-valve as is. Flow rate was about half of the capacity. My second test involved taking the diaphram spring out (the spring assists in closing the valve). The flow rate improve to around 80-90%. However the shutoff took 6-8 seconds longer that the first test.

This completes the biggest hurdle in my automation system. I really didn’t want to spend $300+ on 1 solenoid valve. These valves run around $20cdn each. Next step is setting up limit switching (hi level, low level) and programming. ;D

For more pics on my setup:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=19;action=display;threadid=18021