What Not To buy....

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Help me out here everyone... Please post all your pics showing fish that new hobbyists should not buy. ... Put all those culls to good use here. Post the pics , point out the flaws.

Thanks,
al

[BlueTurquoise]

I will start.

This is a supposed "red spotted" discus that I downloaded off an anonymouse LFS website advertising discus. Maybe I can point out a few things to consider when we are looking at fish and hopefully it will help you to start "training" your eyes to see what to look for in an ideal and not so ideal discus.

Shape: firstly we judge discus shape by the roundness of their bodies and fins. This fish is obviously not very round at all. It's shape from the pelvic fin (the two long fins under it's body) right through to the tail is almost a straight line.

Eyes: Eyes that are not in proportion to the fish's body size is a good indicator of stunted growth. In this case the eyes are large and leary. The biggest giveaway is the fact that this fish's head is almost 1/3 of it's entire body which for a discus is not proportional. Also the eyes must be clear and vibrant. This fish's eyes are not very round at all. but almost an oval shape.

Ridged forehead: this fish shows a "mediteranean" nose, ie. it is not round and fat but shows instead a concave between the upper forhead and mouth area. Healthy/ideal discus would have an almost circular forehead.

Finnage: Can you see the raggedy fins on this fish? This is especially evident around the anal fin area. This is a very big indicator that this fish is probably stressed or carries diseases like fin rot. Look at the tail fin. Discus's tail fins should protrude out of the body like a trepazoid and curve around to meet in an almost perfect semicircle. This fish, becuase of fin rot or whatever, has almost got a perfect triangular tail fin.

Colour: although this fish is showing some sort of colour, you can see that it is flawed. The red almost dissapears to a pale skin colour towards the middle of the fish. Metallic blue colouring (which in this case it just metallic and not very blue) doesn't exist beyond the fin areas. Good coloured "red spotted" discus will have perfect patterning the entire surface if it's body. Add to that the fact that there are hardly any red spots at all. Also notice the very strong vertical stress/mood bars. They are deep and dark. This is probably not a good sign of health and comfort although some fish show these bars all the time even when they are healthy and happy. Just be aware of them.

Other factors: although it is very difficult to see in this picture from this angle, the dorsal ridge area (or the top part of the fish) looks thin like a knife edge. This is a good indicator that the fish has been sick for awhile. This area should be fat and plump in healthy specimines. Looking from the front of the fish, this area should not be too thin and should have some "body" to it. Bascially healthy juvenile discus should be fat, plump and active. If this fish looks very frail and thin.

Also there is the issue of how old this fish is compared to it's size. If these are not proportionate then it is a good indicator of stunted growth. This fish's size is probably no more than 3-4 inches max. A normal healthy discus at 3-4 inches should be around the 1 year old mark. Judging by the size of the eyes on this fish it looks more like 2 year old fish. Basically by asking the owner or careful study you can judge whether the fish in question is stunted in growth or not.

The bottom line is that you must really study the fish that you are about to purchase to see if at rest (not excited by tankmate agressiveness and food) it shows good breathing rates, gill movement, overall movement, finnage, stress/mood bars etc. It is difficult to spot a perfect fish from a not so ideal fish when first starting off. An expert can do it in a blink of an eye. The best way to "train" your eyes to see what is good and what is not is to see lots of fish for yourself and be aware of what you should be looking for. Go out to the LFS, breeders, online and look at many fish, study their shape and their tank personalities.

Basically you cannot know what is good until you know what is not good but equally you cannot tell a bad fish from a good fish if you have only ever seen one fish...

I hope that has helped everyone! Fell free to correct me or add on stuff.
Chong :thumbsup:

[brewmaster15]

Great Info Chong!! and yesss, Thats a a fish that should definetly not be purchased!!!


Heres a less obvious defect.... This is a fish witha shortened gill plate....

-al

[BlueTurquoise]

Nice pic! I am going to add that to my collection.

pssst Al, perhaps we should explain why short gill plates are bad again ;) :)

Chong

[jeep]

It's shape from the pelvic fin (the two long fins under it's body) right through to the tail is almost a straight line.



Does this particular imperfection mean "cull" or does it mean simply a less than perfect discus?

This whole "newbie" section is a great tool!

[BlueTurquoise]

Hi Jeep.

Ideal shape and acceptable size etc are purely a measure of what a hobbyist or enthusast should ideally be looking for when purchasing fish. I suppose you could relate it to buying apples and making sure you know what to look for in a good apple and to be able to tell the difference between a good and a rotten apple. That's not to say that you can't go and buy imperfect cats or dogs, by all means they are just a cute and adorable as pure breed cats and dogs of champion stature.

Culling is used by breeders as a way of quality controlling their stock of fish. It's just like a farmer would cut down bad corn stalks as they take up soil neutrients and fertilizer from sourounding good stock.

Basically if you are a hobbyist, it's best to avoid purchasing fish with these imperfections to start off with. Lets say you are a hobbyist and you have a spawn of fish with some showing these imperfections, it is entirely up to you what you want to do. Basically I would not cull my dogs or cats even if they did have 3 legs or one eye. Can you see what I am trying to get at? when it comes to fish I may or may not cull imperfect fish, it all depends on your fish keeping perogatives. For me, being a hobbyist only, I would keep imperfect fish, if I had them by some means or another, but, and here is the big difference, allowing it to breed and pass on genetic imperfections is another story altogether. I would not allow fish with short gill plates or imperfect shape to breed, so i suppose you can call it a breeding cull, or a fish that is no good for breeding but it's a nice pet never the less.

From a breeders point of view however, if i had a fish room with 3000 fish, where fish food, heating bills and water bills go way over $100-$500 a week, and I am commercially selling these fish then culling greatly imperfect fish would be a top consideration for me, to save money first of all, but also and to prevent imperfect fish from entering the market as well as to keep my fish line at a high quality standard.

That said, these bodily imperfections that we are talking about (esp on this particular fish) are probably not genetic at all but a combination or poor diet, poor environment and years of diseases and infections that have caused it's body to grow abnormally, and if this fish were to ever breed (if it were capable) it could very well still pass good traits genetically to it's fry (if properly raised).

I hope this is close to answering your question and it hasn't confused you further... ;) :)

Chong

[jeep]

It's not confusing at all. As a matter of fact, you've verified the impression I've had of one of my fish. He's grown to a "basically" nice shape, but he has that particular imperfection and from what I've learned over the past few months I would not want to breed him.

[BlueTurquoise]

I see, well like I said there is a difference between environmental effects on body shape and genetic imperfection so it may still breed decent fry if it was the former mentioned that effected it's shape.

I have seen fish that point their heads downwards at 30 deg becuase of infections to their air bladder at an early age but it still breeds true and upright fry.

Add to this the fact that some fish may not breed true (fry does not turn out exactly the same as their parents) and if you cross your suspected imperfect fish with another fish that does not show this imperfection then you may still get a few perfectly shaped fish. It's tough and I am no way the one to advice you on this one! Ask Cary, Miles, Al, Jimmy. Anyway I am sure this fish you talk about is still a very nice fish!

This has been a great chat!
Chong

[ak]

Al/Chong,

Frankly speaking I wouldnt have ever been able to tell about the shortened gill plate and actually thought that this was a perfect discus. Could either one of you again explain how to tell if the gill plate is shortened, how and why it happens? Thanks.

[redlines]

ak,

A shortened gill plate is often a genetic trait inherited by fish from one or both of it's parents. As fish are bred to produce desireable qualities there are times when some of the less than desireable ones are passed along or are intensified.

A shortened gill plate could also result from poor growth and development of the Discus at a young age. If kept in less than desireable conditions or fed poorly short gill plate growth and other problems can find there way in.

The fish illustated earlier IMO has it's short gill plate simply due to genetics. I also have a real nice looking fish which also has a shortened plate but in the case of my fish it is noticeable at the bottom not nearest to the gills.

Andy

[Don_Lee]

Great information shared here! Thanks Andy, and all other contributors.

Don ;D

[BlueTurquoise]

Sometimes fish with shortenned gill plates look very normal except the gill plate (the thing that moves when they breath) doesn't actually cover all of their gill membranes and it exposes some or alot of the red membrane that should be entirely covered by the plate. In the photo that Andy posted, you can see where his arrow is pointed, the fish's gill at the bottom exposes some of the red gill membrane.

Nice pic Andy! very nice fish too cept for that...

Hope that helps!
Chong

Hi Chong!!!!

here is another picture of a fish with short gill plates!!! I bought him when I didn't know what to look for!!

Weezy ;D

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/gill_too_short.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~spluweze/_uimages/AQUA027.jpg

[BlueTurquoise]

Ahh yes short gill plates. Very good pic! Check out the flashed eyes! lol

Chong

Here is a close-up...

Here is a stunted fish. Like Chong said, look at the eye size. If you buy a fish with big eyes that is small, this is what happens!!! See the difference in size? Both are the same age:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/normal_and_a_runt2.jpg

[BlueTurquoise]

Same Age!!! wow, I have to commend you for the photos!

Yes about the shape, you can tell the stunted growth by looking at the size of the head. It looks like the fish's head is not proportional to the rest of it's body (ie mouth, eyes and gills look like it should rest on a larger body).

Very clear in these pics.

Chong

Not only is this discus stunted, he also has a horrible shape. Discus should be round. See the difference? The first one has a very pointy nose...

http://home.earthlink.net/~spluweze/_uimages/6016.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~spluweze/_uimages/AIM005.jpg

Like Chong noted.... look for ragged fins!

EYES!!! Has Chong quoted:


Also the eyes must be clear and vibrant.

Here are clear vibrant red eyes!!!!!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/pigeon_closeup2.jpg

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/julz_wild.jpg

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachments/pigeon_closeup.jpg

[BlueTurquoise]

On the eyes note, the best way too look at whether the eyes are clear and not milky is to look at the fish head on. You will see the eyes bulge out of the sides of the fish in a semi circular shape. The fluid inside this semi circular membrane should be clear like the water. If it is milky, cloudy or tinted in any way that is odd.

It is not always easy to look directly into a fish's eyes and see that it is clear or not, side on.

Add to this the colour. I notice that my blue diamond can change the colour of her eyes as a sign of mood/stress as apposed to showing body stripes (true blue diamonds are devoid of any darkenning on it's body) She changes from fire red eyes to black eyes during the times of stress. However most of the time her eyes are perfectly round, sharp colouration (not murky colours) and clear (liek the colour you see in Weezy's eye example pic (the top picture, fire red), what to look for in healthy fish. The bottom pic looks like my Blue Diamond when stressed.

Chong
PS this is a great thread! I am learning lots too! such nice pics :o

[ak]

Thanks all for explaining the gill plates. Extremely helpful.
After looking at the discus with stunted growth, I realized that I have one that is identical to it. Even the color and especially the shape of the head.

The questions here are, will this discus ever grow to atleast 4 - 5 inches, or will stay this small?
Also, is there a chance that the shape of the head will change with time, or it will remain as it is?

I have had him for about a month and a half, and he has become fatter but grown marginally.

ak

[DarkDiscus]

ak,

I have 2 RSG discus I bought at the same time and are a bit under a year old. One is about 5 inches in length, the other is 3 inches. Same brood. The little guy is clearly stunted. I tried moving her to a tank alone, tons of w/c and increased diet. The fish eats like a hog and is healthy. Just stunted and not likely to ever grow. It will be culled or put in a special tank for guinea pig fish!

John

[BlueTurquoise]

AK how big is it now? how old do you think the fish is? Any chance for pics?

Chong

[Anna Piranha]

This thread, like all the others here, is great. If any of you have children and they ever say, "what do I have to learn THAT for???" You can explain that one day they might want to have an aquarium and for that you should know about math, biology, chemistry, geography, finance, and on and on. It is amazing how this hobby allows us to apply so much of what we know about the world. It feeds my nerdiness :D

This particular thread is terrific, because it puts the power in the hands of the consumer. Sometimes if we see a big price tag, we assume quality. Now I know to look at the gill plates on those pricey fish. I didn't know this before. Thanks Again!

[jim_shedden]

Anna : You can also tell them that if they don't eat their peas and carrots they will end up with great big google eyes.............. :-*

Chong, Kinda late getting in this thread , but the pic that was put up by the LFS--IMO, has internal flagellates (Hexamita ) which will cause the frayed fins you are referencing more so than just ordinary stunting. Notice the pinholes all around the head region? Copped fins in this state , shows an advanced stage of disease. Many think fin damage is related to malnutrition and they would be correct to some degree . I feel it is a secondary issue to the flagellates. It appears the fish is suffering from lateral line disease as well.

HTH, Joe :-\

[BlueTurquoise]

Good point Joe. It is a very poor fish!

Chong

Chong, That disaster gives fish a bad name!!! Joe ;D

[scottwheels]

Well, this is even later for this thread, but I felt I had so much to contribute!! LOL! Anyway, here are some fish you should NOT buy if you're looking for some new discus. In our defence, we bought these fish when they were about 1 inch, and we were still new to discus. They are still happy enough fish, and since they are my pets and I am not a breeder, I haven't culled them. So, here's a cobalt with a face only a mother could love. See the flat spot at the bottom of the eye? This is an undesirable genetic defect, caused by too much inbreeding. The breeder was trying to breed a solid cobalt discus. Just go and buy a blue diamond!

http://202.92.69.54/Photo23/145194/50/3445378.jpg

Here's a better shot. Note the "monkey face" or saddle nose. This trait is actually bred for in some places (But then so are butterfly discus...)

http://202.92.69.54/Photo23/145194/50/3445371.jpg

I know I'm picking on him, but compare the eye size and placement to the fish in the background. Stunting has caused a disproportionate eye/body size ratio.

http://202.92.69.54/Photo23/145194/50/3445364.jpg

Here's another "monkey face". Note that this fish is elongated as well, more of an egg shape than round. This is probably due to environmental factors (planted tank), but can also be genetic.

http://202.92.69.54/Photo23/145194/50/3445385.jpg

And last but not least is another short gill plates. This defect doesn't expose any gill tissue, but it's still not pretty. BTW, this was our first discus, so go easy on us...

http://202.92.69.54/Photo23/145194/50/3445392.jpg

So there you have it. Hope this helps some of you.

Cheers, Scott

[BlueTurquoise]

Great pics Scott! Don't feel too bad, we love our pets just the same as if they were perfect or not.

Chong

[Pink]

Hi all,

How many palm-sized discus can i keep in a regular aquarium tank? Can i keep other type of fishes with my discus? What type? And what type of water plants can i add it to my aquarium?
Thanks!

Pink

[jeep]

How big is your "regular aquarium"? The basic rule is 10 gallons per adult fish. A palm sized discus can become dinner plate sized at full growth.

As for tank mates? Start with the discus in a bare bottom tank until you do lots of reading and find out what YOU think is best.

Good luck.

Hi,

here is a fish with large eye.

alex

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Pink:
You can keep 6 palm sized discus in a 55 gallon tank with daily water changes of 25%. I don't keep anything with discus but discus.

[Ardan]

Please, If you have pics that you can repost for this thread, please do so, it helps out a lot of people.


Thanks :)
Ardan