Culling Fish

Erm, did i just hear this right. Fish being culled for no other reason than their a bit too small, jeeze where do yo uguys learn to keep fish Aushwitz. Im a snake breeder and i have to say that even if an animal would bite every time i picked it up, even if it had three heads and two asses, even if it was the size of a min head cricket that animal has every right to live and i as its keeper have every responsibility towards that animal to ensure that it has the potential to live out its life to full capacity. Yea sure your allways going to get a few rough ones, a few small ones, but what the hell have they done to deserve death, especially when its your responsibility for bringing them into this world in the first place. Everyoone would like to have a pristeene fish room full of prized specimins, but natures just not like that. This action i feel may be common place with you people, and in the sake of reliving suffering may be excused in extreeme examples, like a fish being borne without gill plates. But in as far as creating an Airian fish stock may your soul rot in hell. I was impressed by some of the collections ive seen so far, but if this is how you go about achiving this then yu should all be ashamed of yourselfs, you all disgust me and i wish to be no part of this, Simply Discuss, Simply Discusting.

[dm]

Please keep in mind, this is not happenning here on Simply, it is happening everywhere. It is not an option. If you are a breeder you will have to cull. Period.

And why exactly? and if its asthetic keep it to yourself. You breed em you feed em, but never kill. Im prepared to listen to a valid arguemnt, but superficial cosmetic faults are not dibilitating. And no, your wallet doesn't come into it either, you breed em you feed em.

[larry lob]

I am not sure if i should get involved in this argument, however i feel the idea of culling fish in order to weed out the weak fish and only leave geneticaly strong fish to grow and then breed themselves. if a breeder can not sell culls then the reality is that he will have a fish room full of culls and no space for better fish. it is not a financial thing just a fact that there will be no physical space.
i agree that all life should be free to live and if there was a way to get undesired fish back into thier natrual habitat then i am sure it would be done.
The reality is that in every brood of babys there will be a percentage of geneticaly weak fish purly because there culls are ancesters somewhere along the line.

i am not sure if i got my point across or not but in short if there was another way then it would be done.
think of the problems that would be solved in the world if we culled criminals. <cowers for cover>

Larry

[roger]

Theres a whole list of reasons for culling and most of them really have to do with a shallow gene pool. Some of the discus strains I think come from a very shallow gene pool so if your breeding fish you cant afford to let any deformities stay in that gene pool. That covers size and more generic problems (missing fins, gill plates etc ...).

If your selling fish as well as breeding you cant afford to send out any lemon fish so you have to make sure what you sell is only the best.

This is after all what happens in nature, the strongest survive.

BTW I havent gotten fry yet either so I dont know how I am going to cross that bridge when I get to it.

Peace,
Roger

If it were the case that these fish went on to breed willy nilly then i could see a point, but they dont. You make that selection, you choose the strongest ones and place them together specifically to breed.

Quote:

it is not a financial thing just a fact that there will be no physical space.


That IS a financial thing, space = money. If this was done morrally then im sure the better fish, being more difficult to procure would have higer price, the other cheaper (or soon to be dead as you call it) not so perfect fish can populate the tanks of newbies, and people who cant afford the better ones. I still find no reason why this barbarric practice should continue. Youll bring us all back to the dark ages of dog breeding, and just look at some of the sickening examples people have created through the use of culling and hybridisation. As i said before, this practice is barbaric, and the only reason why the young are there is because you made CONSIDERABLE EFFORTS to do so. To then kill them for being less than perfect is discusting. All i need is one decent reason, just one. And as yet i have heard just lame excuses. jeeze, and i thought keeping them in plain RO was non PC. Something infact which may be directly related to the number of supposed diformities your encountering. These two practices i find lazy and irresponsible. How would you like it if you found that all blond puppies were killed from whats supposed to be a black breed. sick sick sick.

[Liz_Streithorst]

There are people who feel that it is their moral responsability to cull just as there are people who feel that it is their moral responsibility to allow all healthy animals to live. These are 2 fundimentally different views. There is no way the issue will be decided in this forum. In fact it is an extremely divicive issue and I can't help but wonder if it wasn't raised simply to provoke controversy.

Liz

[April]

aquamouse..do you own discus? the lower quality ones end up at the lfs...lower grades. and they are sold in bulk to other places.
when breeders cull..they are looking for faults that are hereditary.
and yes.they are bred willy nilly. as all the ones who are sent to the lfs are bought...and the fish pair up themselves. and breed. and people who buy them say...heh cool...my fish just laid eggs. discus choose their own mates for the most part. we as hobbyists provide them with a tank and choose their tank mates and they choose which one they like from the choice they have. in nature..theyd choose differently..but for sure..one who was well enough and strong enough to survive.
and yes..in nature only a handful of the strongest ones would ever make it. and the tiny ones who are culled....do eventually just get further and further behind. then get weak and die as they can not keep up with their bigger brothers and sisters. remember.they all started out the same size..and those tiny ones are not eating properly ..hence small. or just wont grow.
we do have some members who rescue sick or runted fish from the lfs. and nurture them.
you too..can do that. its your choice where you buy from.
you can go to a hatchery and ask for their culls....or...you can ask them for some nice fish.
but which ones would most people want to get for their hard earned money sent to them? and how long would these breeders be in business if they sent all their culls to someone ?
it isnt just about money...its genetics.

[hunterbeav]

Aquamouse, I LOVE TO CULL FISH. WHEN I'M FEELING DOWN AND INADEQUATE I GET ME A BEER TWIST ONE UP AND CULL FISH BY THE DOZENS. AFTER THAT WOW DO I FEEL ALIVE AND MANLY AGAIN. I HOPE THIS HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I DO IT. MAINLY FOR THE SHEER JOY IT BRINGS ME TO KILL HELPLESS BABIE FISHIES !!!!!!!!! :) ;D :bounce: :bounce2:

[larry lob]

hunter,

I do the same dude but with criminals so i hear you !!!!!!!!!1

crack a beer then the rifle.

xxxxxxxx

[Ralph]

The relationships between humans and animals is a morality quagmire. There is so much injustice, inequities, illogics, and hypocrisies that you can go crazy trying to make sense of it. A local man is now doing time for drowning some kittens but his neighbor may kill 200 cows every day and get paid good money. Some guy offered a $5000 reward for his lost dog while the city puts 400 animals to sleep every day because no one wants them. There are about 30 companies here who's sole purpose is to kill "pests" including rodents, yet a power plant can't be built because it will affect a 1" fish nearby. And how about fur protesters who go to lunch at McDonalds.
A generalization about the relationship would be that our morality attitudes towards animals are based on practicality, rarity of the animal, the status quo, and what I call the morality of cuteness (the animal's value is based on looks).
I think that you bring up some good points Aquamouse and I have thought and felt that way myself. We have many people here who have rescued some ugly fish from LFSs. And I don't know anyone who is proud of the culling rate and I think that it could probably be reduced (it would be nice if the last level of culls (inadequate coloring, etc.) could be made available to newbies at reduced prices.). But it is a practical necessity.
And you can't really compare it to mammals, they are not the same. And it is not just discus, it's all domestic bred fish (even guppies), and I've never seen any fish killed on the board, in fact I've never seen any fish on the board.
These types of complex issues are never solved by finger pointing, look at the abortion issue. Personally, I've set about trying to clean up my own act. We can all find enough moral blindness and stupidity in our own lives to keep us busy. And if I can do something in my own life to make life better for my planet mates, I'll try that. And if you can come up with a practical solution that would reduce or eliminate culling, breeders everywhere will be indebted to you for it.

[larry lob]

Ralph,

Are you a lawyer?

damn well said

[Ralph]

I hope that I don't sound like a lawyer, Larry.
I'm just unemployed with too much time on my hands.
Thanks though.

[larry lob]

someone employ him to argue for you quick.

[RichieE]

This is an arguement with no answer and no end. If I had to cull on a regular basis I would employ an Oscar. Natures way. Rich

[pete m daniels]

Aquamouse
Could you please spell disgusting with a g and not a c.

Have a nice day

pete

[John_Nicholson]

As many of you know I am NOT for the animal rights movement. I think a lot of animal lovers (which I am one..and no sheep jokes here) get suckered by these losers. Here is an interesting set of quotes that I ran across today. Before you classify yourself as an animal rights individual or before you sent money to a group that you think just wants to help animals please read and verify some of these.

-john

P.S. Aquamouse you have no clue of what you speak

Quotes From Animal Rights Activists

By Brian Carnell

Sunday, May 14, 2000


General Philosophy

"We feel that animals have the same rights as retarded children."
-Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA, New York Times, January 14, 1989.

"The life of an ant and that of my child should be granted equal consideration."
-Michael W. Fox, Vice President, The Human Society of the United States, The Inhumane Society, New York, 1990.

"Surely there will be some nonhuman animals whose lives, by any standards, are more valuable than the lives of some humans."
-Peter Singer, Animal Liberation: A New Ethic for Our Treatment of Animals, 2nd edition, 1990.

Regan when asked which he would save, a dog or a baby, if a boat capsized in the ocean: "If it were a retarded baby and a bright dog, I'd save the dog."
-Tom Regan, Q&A session following a speech, University of Wisconsin-Madison, October 27, 1989.



Animal Experimentation

"To those people who say, `My father is alive because of animal experimentation,' I say `Yeah, well, good for you. This dog died so your father could live.' Sorry, but I am just not behind that kind of trade off."
- Bill Maher, PETA celebrity spokesman

"If the death of one rat cured all diseases, it wouldn't make any difference to me."
-Chris De Rose, Director, Last Chance for Animals

"An animal experiment cannot be justifiable unless the experiment is so important that the use of a brain-damaged human would be justifiable."
-Peter Singer, Animal Liberation: A New Ethic for Our Treatment of Animals, 2nd. edition, 1990.

"If abandoning animal research means that there are some things we cannot learn, then so be it ... We have no basic right ... not to be harmed by those natural diseases we are heir to."
-Tom Regan, The Case for Animal Rights, 1983


Meat

"Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughter houses."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, The Washington Post, November 13, 1983.



Pets

"In a perfect world, animals would be free to live their lives to the fullest: raising their young, enjoying their native environments, and following their natural instincts. However, domesticated dogs and cats cannot survive "free" in our concrete jungles, so we must take as good care of them as possible. People with the time, money, love, and patience to make a lifetime commitment to an animal can make an enormous difference by adopting from shelters or rescuing animals from a perilous life on the street. But it is also important to stop manufacturing "pets," thereby perpetuating a class of animals forced to rely on humans to survive."
-PETA pamphlet, Companion Animals: Pets or Prisoners?

"I don’t use the word "pet." I think it’s speciesist language. I prefer "companion animal." For one thing, we would no longer allow breeding. People could not create different breeds. There would be no pet shops. If people had companion animals in their homes, those animals would have to be refugees from the animal shelters and the streets. You would have a protective relationship with them just as you would with an orphaned child. But as the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship – enjoyment at a distance."
-Ingrid Newkirk, PETA vice-president, quoted in The Harper's Forum Book, Jack Hitt, ed., 1989, p.223.

"It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just, road would be ending the concept of pet ownership."
-Elliot Katz, President, In Defense of Animals, "In Defense of Animals," Spring 1997

"Liberating our language by eliminating the word 'pet' is the first step ... In an ideal society where all exploitation and oppression has been eliminated, it will be NJARA's policy to oppose the keeping of animals as 'pets.'"
-New Jersey Animal Rights Alliance, "Should Dogs Be Kept As Pets? NO!" Good Dog! February 1991, p.20

"Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete jungles -- from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains by which we enslave it."
-John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of A Changing Ethic, PETA, 1982, p.15.

"The cat, like the dog, must disappear..... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist."
-John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of a Changing Ethic, PETA 1982, p.15.

"As John Bryant has written in his book Fettered Kingdoms, they [pets] are like slaves, even if well-kept slaves."
-PETA's Statement on Companion Animals

"The bottom line is that people don't have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats ... If people want toys they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship they should seek it with their own kind."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, "Animals," May/June 1993

"You don't have to own squirrels and starlings to get enjoyment from them ... One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild ... they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990.

"Pet ownership is an abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, Washingtonian, August 1986

"One day we would like an end to pet shops and breeding animals [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild."
-Ingrid Newkirk, Chicago Daily Herald, March 1, 1990


Terrorism

"Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause."
-Alex Pacheco, Director, PETA

"Andrew Cunanan, because he got Versace to stop doing fur."
-PETA's David Mathews reply when to Genre request for "Men We Love"

"I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PETA, National Animal Rights Convention '97, June 27, 1997

"Get arrested. Destroy the property of those who torture animals. Liberate those animals interned in the hellholes our society tolerates."
Jerry Vlasak, Animal Defense League, Internet post to AR Views list, June 21, 1996

"We have found that civil disobedience and direction action has been powerful in generating massive attention in our communities ... and has been very effective in traumatizing our targets."
-J.P. Goodwin, Committee to Abolish the Fur Trade, National Animal Rights Convention '97, June 27, 1997.

"In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors."
-Tim Daley, British Animal Liberation Front Leader


"If a girl gets sexual pleasure from riding a horse, does the horse suffer? If not, who cares? If you French kiss your dog and he or she thinks it's great, is it wrong? We believe all exploitation and abuse is wrong. If it isn't exploitation and abuse, it may not be wrong."
-Ingrid Newkirk, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

[tango0806]

I will not even attempt to get into the pros and cons of culling. I am an Animal Control Office at a municiple animal shelter and I am a state certified euthanasia technician. When I have to euthanize an old sick or badly injured animal I find some sort of justification for it. When I have to euthanize simply because the shelter is "full" my job becomes that much more difficult. The point I will make here is that breeders "cull" their Discus and sell the rest. How many times have you purchased a quality Discus that never panned out to be what it was supposed to be?

John G

[Don_Lee]

Aquamouse-Perhaps you should review our mission statement and the guidelines that you agreed to abide by when you joined this forum. Terms such as "simply disgusting" etc. are not necessary or appreciated. If you have views, please air them. However, do so in a way that gives others the respect they deserve. I think there have been alot of good points made, and I feel this is a topic that is a matter of opinion when all is said and done. Be assured that there are many caring and kind people here.

Don ;D

[Kevin]

Why not? Just this morning, I culled five discus for bottom fins that were not right, a snakeskin with one eye too small, and about thirty angel fish that all had a variety of things not right with them. A local shop owner calls those types " Banjo babies" I look at how I have bought most of my fish. Lets see those five look good at only fifty or ninety dollars each, well now they have grown up and it is time to pair them off. First possable mistake. These fish are from the same line or parents, they may have been inbread how many times before I get my chance to do the same? Then some of them have the nerve to have defects. Rats I have a whole bunch of money in them, so I cull out the junk and sell the rest. I have a few blue diamonds that have a heckle stripe on them and one that has just a few partial bars suggesting the heratige of the line. I have learned to mix them up a bit to lower the cull ratio but alas there will awalys be some that are not right. If anyone would like these culls just email me and you pay the shipping and a small handling charge. I will be glad to send out the ones that do end up as food for a friends oscar. Then you can feed and house those poor fish that no one wants, the oscars absolutely love them though. Heck untill today I thought that anyone with a little sense did the same. Ok thanks for the reading. it has been intresting. and remember the one rule when laying sod. " Green side up" R.S. K.

[heavyp83]

Hey Aquamoose,
Are you a vegetarian? I am and have been for 4 years. But I would never make a post like the one you did. I share the same thoughts as you on culling, except for genetic defects, but I think that the way you present your argument is uncalled for. I am also pretty sure that no one on this board who culls fish is going to stop simlpy because of what you said. I am absolutley an advocate of animal rights, but I think you should learn to present yourself a bit more peacfully, and I bet more people will listen to what you have to say.

[John_Nicholson]

Heavyp83 sice you consider yourself an animal right supporter (which has very little with how you treat animals) how many of the statements above from the worlds most high profile "animal rights leaders" to you agree with?

Thanks -john

[Wolf]

It's a fish plain and simple. They aren't mammals or human in any way. They have no brain and no thought process. You have to cull out the weak. In nature, maybe 3 fish out of 300 fry will reach adult hood. There is nothing immoral about flushing a obvious runt or just plain dumping them in the trash or feeding them to the cat or other fish. Once again this is a fish we are talking about. I hope you don't like seafood. You aren't doing anyone a favor by giving away your least desirable fish either. What happens is the amature fish keeper puts 30 minutes or more a day for a year into raising those obviouis genetically flawed fish. They spend money on food, their time, and money trying to fix a fish that has an obvious defect. After a year of trouble, they think of all the hard work, time and money it took to raise these fish and all they have is some ugly runts staring back at them. They realise all the time and money they wasted on these fish and just plain give up on the hobby or they go buy some quality fish to start over again with. Bleeding heart liberal PETA members make me sick :P

[heavyp83]

As far as animals being granted the same consideration as humans, I have to disagree, I'd save a retarted child over a beautiful dog anyday.
Animal Experimentation-- I disagree with cosmetics and food companys experimenting on animals. Medically, I am more leanyant however, with todays technology, I think we are close to not needing to test on animals anymore. I agree with the statement about the Holocaust corrolated to chicken farms. People can satisfy their body's needs suficiently without eating animals. I want to say that I think that people who say they are animal lovers, yet eat meat should give this issue some thought. The ones that aren't cute and fuzzy, or in this case, round and colorful (hehe) have their right to live too. I hope no one takes offense to this, I have no problem with people eating meat or hunting, as long as you don't try to discourage me from my views. I live my life the way I do because I want to, not because I want others to follow me. Therefore I don't have the right to shove my beliefs down other peoples throats. Hope that answers your question, John.

Heavy :drummer: :guitarist: :singer:

[brewmaster15]

This topic is closed. Aquamouse will not be posting any more responses on this site.

While I recognize the question of animal rights, supporters and non, the matter will never settled on a forum, and was brought up for obvious reason..... ...for that matter it will never get past the discussion stage with the tone and purpose that aquamouse used here.

-al

I will not go into details as to my views of culling, but culling is done by nature everyday, this is something that is not able to happen in the fishhatchery setting....which is why it needs to be done, if desired outcomes are to be achieved. Like it or not there is no other way to preserve a strain as a healthy strain.