YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!

[RandalB]

Hi all!

It seems that one of the most common questions that I see in the Water Works section is on how to modify pH.

For the most part there is absolutely no need to change your pH.

If growing out Baby or Juvenile Discus, there is no need to change it unless it is acid or basic enough to melt them.

If you are trying to breed adults, you might have to modify pH to induce them to spawn but probably not!

I make RO units and help people with water questions very frequently.

I have talked to people that have tap water with a wide range of pH values and hardness from soft to rock hard. People with pH of 8.5 report the same sucess with raising and keeping discus as people with 6.0 out of the tap. I personally Keep all my discus (except my breeding pair) at a pH of 7.8 with GH of 8 and KH of 6. The breeding pair is at 7.2 due to the addition of RO water that I use to lower TDS.

There is no magic pH value or TDS Reading

Consistency in the quality and parameters is more important than anyone's arbitrary set values for water chemistry. There is no absolutely exact value for raising and keeping discus. Giving them consistent pH of 8.0 is better than bouncing your water's pH around with chemicals and additives trying to get that magical 6.8. It's a lot cheaper too both in chemicals and the health of your fish.

If your Tap water pH changes with aging, age your water and do your water changes. If it stays the same and high, just use it as is and do your water changes. Your fish will be happier in the long run.

I Personally killed quite a few angelfish and assorted tropicals (dozens in fact)when I was starting out because a LFS employee told me I HAD to have a pH of 7.0 for a community tank. So I bought the pH up and down and the Proper 7.0. I added it and the pH went all over the place. I could'nt figure out why my fish died after I did a water change. It's a miracle I'm still into aquariums it was so frustrating. But a good LFS owner (Trying to sell me Discus in fact) told me that was crap and my fish stopped dying almost immediately. So here I am today, 9 tanks with more on the way just waiting for my first pair to get it right. (4th spawn on the 16th! Not yet, but they keep trying!)

A good rule of thumb:
If you can drink your tap water your fish will be fine in it.


Excuse the running off at the keyboard, I hope it helps someone.
RandalB

[Carol_Roberts]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Carol :heart1:

[roger]

I think someone needs a hug :)

My fish do fine in liquid rock water here in florida. They spawn like mad, of course they are just teasing me.

So unless your trying to work with wilds or breed your fish then consistant water will make your fish happy.

Peace,
Roger

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
I would like to "second" that thought by Randal! I too believe that pH plays a much smaller role in the health of discus than has been the popular thought. This is the reason I DO NOT bother testing pH until I see a problem arise, like skittish fish, as was the case when my pH had dropped to 3.7 ONE TIME! :o I would caution that a person should know their W/C pH(along with the other params) and know how it's components affect the chemical makeup and reactions in a water body. This will save a lot of undue stress on the fish! Good post, Randal!


Steve

[fossil]

When I first started off with tropical fish, I also had the same thing happen to me, I had a nice pair angels that died because I thought I had to have the PH at 7.0 :-[

O well I have learned. Good idea to make the whole PH thing clear.

[Jaker]

I have read with interest your comments about not altering the PH of your water. I have well water with a ph of 6.2 and I alter it to 6.8-7.0 because of everything I've read. I notice that when my ph drops to below 6.8 my discus become very aggressive and spook easily when I approach the tank to feed them. At a Ph of 7.0 they seem to calm down and come up to the surface to feed when I approach. Also, what do you do if you have a ph of 6.2 and you buy a new discus from a breeder that keeps his water at 7.0 or higher, doesn't the large change in ph adversely affect the fish?

[Carol_Roberts]

You can raise the pH in the quarantine tank for new fish to match the pH they are used to and then lower it with water changes.

Your discus should be fine in a pH of 6.2 ???

With my well I find the pH rises naturally. Have you testd water both directly from the tap and water that has set out in a cup overnight? What are the two numbers?

[Steve_Warner]

I have well water with a ph of 6.2 and I alter it to 6.8-7.0 because of everything I've read. I notice that when my ph drops to below 6.8 my discus become very aggressive and spook easily when I approach the tank to feed them. At a Ph of 7.0 they seem to calm down and come up to the surface to feed when I approach. Also, what do you do if you have a ph of 6.2 and you buy a new discus from a breeder that keeps his water at 7.0 or higher, doesn't the large change in ph adversely affect the fish?


Hi all,
Jaker, how do you modify your pH to 7.0? Have you tried to vigorously aerate and let it sit for 24 hours or so and test pH then? I keep my discus(9) in water with pH in the 5's and 4's. They are very healthy, happy, hungry and vibrant. I have NO problems with skittishness, so I feel that there is something else going on in your tank besides the pH thought. You might have some dissolved gasses due to well pressures in the water or toxic salts of some sort(metals?) causing those reactions. There are many variables which could be causing those reactions(shadows, even!). Can you give us a very thorough description of ALL things in the water or coming into contact with it, please? Carol has stated a great suggestion for acclimating a new discus to a differing pH environment. Just some thoughts

Steve

[Jaker]

Hey Steve, Thanks for the reply and your thoughts on my situation. With respect to your request for more info on my water the following is provided. I have a 55 gal Aquarium with 4 med size tank raised discus (2 red turks, a cobalt blue and a red marlboro). The tank has 2 to 3 inches of substrate, a piece of driftwood, 4 rocks and is fairly well planted with Amazon Sword plants. For tank mates, I have one placo and a cory cat. The tank has been set up for about a year and 3 or the 4 discus have been in it that long. I bought them at 2 inches and now they have grown to 4 inches and the one red turk is about 5 inches. My water is strictly well water and quite aggressive coming from the well head. I try to calm it down passing it through 2 sediment filters, an acid neutralizing tank charged with calcite and a water softner. At the faucet the water is around 6.0-6.2. I buffer the water with Sodium Bicarbonate (good ole Arm&Hammer Baking Soda) to a 6.8-7.0 ph. The hardness is 15dH. I keep the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels low with 20% water changes every 3 or 4 days. I vacuum the substrate on a weekly basis. I have not had a complete water analysis done but I do know that I have clear water iron in my water and I suspect copper that is leeching out of my plumbing, due to the acidic nature of my well water. As far a filtration is concerned, I use an undergravel filter w/a power head on each of the 2 lift tubes and an outside box filter with carbon floss inserts and 2 bio wheels. When vaccuming the gravel, the water gets a somewhat turbid so I add an additional outside floss filter/airator for a couple of hours which aggitates and clears the water very nicely, I'm sure the plants don't like it but the water gets crystal clear. Other than that I can't think of anything else that might be affecting my discus. They seem to be healthy and happy other then when the ph drops and they get aggressive and spooky. Any additional thoughts, comments or suggestions are welcome. Other then eating more food, any thoughts as to why the one grew bigger and faster than the others, which are all about the same size. Happy Trails, John

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Randall
I agree with you 100% except when it comes to breeding, you will always get a much better hatch rate at ph 5.5 than you will at ph 7
Dennis

[BlueTurquoise]

Pascale and I don't check our PH values, ever... I used to do it all the time once back when I first started and was fooled into thinking that I had to fool around with PH.

Nowadays I have no idea what my PH or GH, kh or TDS is and honestly I really don't care. They breed in the water i give them and succuess rate is pretty good never the less.

I ask Henry (dude with a fish room and about 100 Discus nearby to me) what his PH is and he said flattly "what? I dunno?" hehe

Edit: Ok Pascale you win! Pascale asked Henry! LOL

Chong :thumbsup:

[Shari]

I've thought often about doing water changes to slowly raise my Discus from the 6.8-7.0 PH they are at now.
I use Seachem Regulator then the Buffer to get it down from tap of 7.6-7.8.
I had a problem a couple times where I was at about 7 at 10pm and awoke to find the PH dropped to 6.2. I worry about that for the fish's sake. The Discus in the tanks were new and I've never tried it since. Do any of you use a regulator to at least keep it near the tap PH ?

I'de love to stop messin with the water....

[RandalB]

Shari,
You are on Chicago Municipal water out there in Bolingbrook. Your pH is 7.86 (I have a pH meter!) (OK I have boxes of them...)your General Hardness is 8 and Your Carbonate Hardness is 6. The Gh and Kh might fluctuate seasonally but your pH will remain constant from the tap.

My $0.02 is: Stop trying to alter your pH. Your fish will do just fine at your Tapwater conditions. I have 26 Discus ranging from juveniles to adults in Chicago tapwater with no modifications. My breeding pairs get Chicago tap/RO water mix at a 50/50 ratio to promote higher hatch rates.

To bring your water up to tap conditions do 25% tap water W/C's.

As my first post said, consistency is more important than magical values. You can be consistant by providing tap water and doing regular changes. Worry about TDS and pH when they are breeding.

HTH,
RandalB

[Smokey]

amen.... your so right .
I keep all my discus in peat filtered water; reason.. to lower the gh/kh. Liquid rock water. The pH, nicely, stays at ~6.8 - 7.0.
P.S.- the peat is NOT in the tanks; I pass my tap water through a large 5 gallon container of peat, heat, treat[ammonia] and aireate.

The discus - 7 adults and 11 juviniles are doing just fine... and I like the tinted water look...so do they.

Smokey

[Mat]

Hello to all, this is my first post on this forum please be gentle..
You dont need to change your ph?, im glad its been hard enough as it is hah, seriously though i have an r.o unit im mixing 50%R.O with 50%tap im getting a ph of 7.4 and gh 5 kh 3. As experienced Discus keepers do you have any comments/reccomendations in regards to these readings?
i appreciate consistency is important but i do worry that the ph is too high,my discus x4 red turqs(more to come) seem ok but id like to be sure..
Sorry for dragging this on but you all must have gone throught this worrying about perfection phase. Cheers Mat ;D

[RandalB]

Mat,
Your water is fine don't change anything.

BTW, Don't ever worry about posting questions. That's why we are all here. The only dumb question is the one no one asks.


RandalB

[Mat]

Thanks for your reply its nice to get a bit of reassurance, looking forward to seeing other comments ;D

[Shari]

Randal - you are excellent. Thanks.

I'm going to give it a shot over the next couple weeks.
May finally get rid of that slight fog from the phosphates too.!! :D

[RXTrev]

In regards to Smokey's reply, I was just wondering if you could lower the pH and make water softer with peat granules made for the fluval canister filters instead of using an RO unit. I have 2 55's one is fully planted and the other has angels in it, so I would like a lower pH, and lower hardness than my liquid rock tap water. I currently do water changes with aged tap water, but I was wondering if I could use the peat granules. Since I use a 55g garbage can for my aged water, I figure I could put the same amount of peat in all the tanks and garbage can, then after a few water changes, just use it in the garbage can to keep the new aged water's pH the same as the tanks' already lower pH. This should keep the pH constant, right ? Prove me wrong before I try it, please :)

[Mr. Limpet]

In my opinion, you can't really go wrong with using peat, if you don't make a dramatic change. I have used Queen sized leg stockings to hold peat in my storage barrels with good success. Peat pellets are really expensive compared to Home depot bought peat. You need to be careful to change the stockings out before the peat starts to rot, usually around a week +/- a day or so. you can use the old peat in your garden. Personally, I like the tea stain that the peaat leaves. Paul.

[Smokey]

Peat does have a short life. Putting peat pellets into a tank will have little effect, over-all.
MPE - ex:- 4 gallons of fresh Canadian Peat Moss will treat ~100-150 gallons of fresh water. MPE. The peat, in this case, drops the pH from 8.5 to 6.5, and the gh/kk from 450ppp down to ~40ppm and 12ppm repectfully.

This with a flow rate of 1 gallon per minute/60gallons/hr. The fresh water only flows through the ''peat'' once. After 100 gallons , I discard the peat..to the garden.

The time the water spends reacting with the peat determines the overall final effect.
The faster the flow rate the less the effect will be.

Since my tap water is alkiline and hard, the effect with others water may vary. TEST THE PEAT FILTERED WATER TO DETERMINE WHAT THE FINAL NUMBERS ARE.
And don't be afraid to experiment.

The peat filtered water is soft, slighty acid, and is a lovely tinge of brown. The discus love it!!!

P.S.- all peat filtered water is done outside of my tanks. I use a 5 gallon plastic bucket to hold the peat, have the fresh tap water enter from the bottom,. The water has to flow up through all the peat to exit. I found placing a 1'' foam on top prevents the peat from flowing out of the bucket. However, placing the peat in a loose fitting materal sock/sack/??? may do the same thing.

I then treat for chlorine/ammonia, aireate, match tank temperature and add to the tanks. Actually, I use warm water, 85 - 90F, and by the time the storage container (an old 45 gal. tank) is full, the peat filtered water is ready to use.
Been using this setup for over 6 months.. the peat filtered water is stable and consistant. which I like.
A bale of peat is about $5.00; cheap . Less expensive than replacing the carbon filters on the R/O uint.

Smokey

[Todd77357]

I agree in part with "YOU DON'T NEED TO CHANGE YOUR pH!", since most modern discus haven't lived in their natural environment in many generations they no longer have a set ph value. They have been forced to adapt to many different water conditions. However, wild caught fish need to be kept at natural levels of ph or breeding will be almost impossible. I have many discus, and I do adjust my ph using C02 and a controller, ph stabilitiy is key to healthy low stressed fish. I also raise my ph levels in fry grow out tanks to 7 since most fish stores and discus buyers won't keep their water values as I do.

[Smokey]

Very good point - Todd. And a very important point to remember.
We seem to go out of our way to give the best water/care for our discus. Then they are thrown into a tap water environment! STRESS.

Let your discus aclimitize to your water. And KEEP UP THE WATER CHANGES.

Smokey

[RandalB]

Todd,
You missed the point. I'm not talking about breeding discus here. I'm talking about raising and keeping them. Getting Discus to breed sucessfully is a whole other ballgame and is covered in the Breeding section. This thread is for the newbie who has been told by some well meaning but uninformed person that discus have to have pH 6.8 or below to live. I'm hoping to keep that hypothetical newbie from screwing around with all kinds of buffers and pH down products and stressing their fish to death.

Smokey,
Not sure what point you are trying to make about tap water stressing discus, please elaborate.

Regards,
RandalB

[Smokey]

I was agreeing with todd's post.
And yes, I am aware that the new discus owner, should raise the discus in water that is available to him/herself.

They are a number of options, available, to adjust a particulat waters numbers. If this is what a person wants to do, NOT every body has "good water" on hand.

Any discus kept in water with the numbers of , lets say .. pH6.8 and a softness of 40ppm; and then taken home and throw into water with a pH of 8.4/hardness of 400ppm .. can expect trouble.

Beaware of the water conditions from where the discus is kept. For the first few days, it may be necessay to baby sit the discus until it will be " happy" in its new home.
Hope I cleared up my suggestions.

Smokey

[Todd77357]

Randal, my point was the fact that hybrid discus can be kept at a wide range of water conditions. In my opinion keeping their water close to natural levels is best. Hybrid discus no longer have "ideal water conditions", so keep your fish at whatevery ph and ppm u wish. Just keep it stable. I believe wild caught discus must be kept in water at natural levels for them to truly have low stress. As far as breeding wilds, that was an example. People love to play God, lol.

[RandalB]

Todd,
Not to be quarrelsome, but I am keeping 2 adult wild caught Alancers and 1 juvenile RSG in my tap water right now, and they are not showing any signs of stress at all. As a matter of fact they are the terror of the 55 gallon QT tank. Stealing all the food, harassing the larger domestics, etc. It's been my experience that wilds tend to hold up better than their inbred domestic cousins. I've never had a wild fish get sick or display any signs of stress at all. My tap water is pH 7.8 gH 8, kH 6 at 178 PPM. Not solid rock but definately not amazon conditions. As far as getting them to breed, that I haven't even given a thought to yet. The RSG appears to be a female, and I'll start looking into breeding when she gets a little older. The alancers appear to be male and female and I'll be thinking about breeding them after QT is over.

No arguement from me about what best conditions for Wilds are, but they will also do just fine with harder water and plenty of W/C's.

RandalB

[Todd77357]

Randal

Humans have lived for thousands of years breathing around 2% oxygen. We could live breathing lets say 10% oxygen, but we would never truely adapt. The same goes for all of nature, the conditions all creatures have had for generations is always best. Who are we to tell nature it was wrong.

[RandalB]

Todd,
What are the conditions in the amazon that are good for all wilds? Are they always the same or do they fluctuate from season to season? Is the water always acidic and low in minerals? Or does the mineral content increase due to run off, etc? Who's to say what the proper conditions are for keeping wild discus? I am by no means an expert in wilds or raising them. I do have experience however. I do also know that conditions in the amazon are different in different areas and different seasons. The fish adapt to the seasonal conditions as they adapt to the water conditions in home tanks. This is something that nature built into them to help them survive in their natural environment where the water conditions can and do change seasonally.

The whole point of this thread is to put forward the information that Discus can and do adapt to most tapwater conditions found in most homes. There is no perfect pH reading or TDS reading for Discus. The way to keep healthy discus is to be consistant with your treatment of them. It's better to do frequent water changes at pH 8.0 than to toss in pounds of buffers or pH regulators and screw with complicated and inconsistent water chemistry in a vain attempt to match amazon river average conditions.

Wilds don't need 6.8 pH any more than domestics do to survive and thrive.

I appreciate and respect your opinion,
RandalB

[Carol_Roberts]

When I first started with discus all the books said the perfect water for discus had a pH of 6.0. I wanted perfect water for my discus.

Water comes out of my tap at pH 6.8. I'd lower it to 6.0 in a five gallon bucket with the pink acid powder and then pour my "perfect" water in the tank . . . . (I didn't know it at the the time, but overnight in the tank the pH would raise to 7.8 ). . . . .strangely my discus would all turn dark, hide in the corner and glower at me during water changes :P

Soon it dawned on me to check the pH of the tank water. pH 7.8 how could that be ??? So then I decided to add more acid to the 5 gallon bucket of change water. I was determined to have "perfect" water. I added 10 gallons 0f pH5 water to my 29 gallon tank, dropping the pH from 7.8 down to 6.8. Wow, I said to myself, tomorrow the water in this tank will be perfect.

My discus got very dark and looked very, very sick. And the next day the pH in the tank was right back up to 7.8

I stopped using the acid, learned to agitate my water to offgas CO2 which stabilizes the pH. Now I can do 90% water changes and my discus all have smiles on their faces. . . now I have "perfect" water for my discus. . . . GH 11, ph 7.8 well water.

Perfect water is consistant water.

[Smokey]

This all goes back to the original disscussin - provide constant, stable water ... AND ... do those water changes.

Smokey

[ronrca]

I am interested in wilds and naturally I always wonder about them being kept in their 'natural' water. I had the oppurunity to pm wildthing (aka David Webber) from wilddiscus.com. He imports wild discus to breed and sell.

This was part of his message:


keeping wilds is easy, they are tougher than domestics IMO, as they are already proven survivors. Breeding is also the same, as you say, soft slightly acidic water, but just for keeping them that is not necessary

[Smokey]

Hmmmmm. someone has certainly caught the "OBSESSION ".

[L337 Kr3w pwnz j00]

I was wondering...

I have tap water that is hard, but not extremely so. My tap water pH is 8.5-9.0

Is that really going to be ok? And is there any way to use peat without having brown water?

Oh and one other question: why does the inside of the aquarium need to be wiped down weekly? Will it hurt the discus not to do so, simply to scrub algae when it occurs, and do a regular weekly water change?

Thank you,
Rob

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rob,
On the brown water...filter thru peat fisrt then a carbon block to remove the brown.

on the wiping the tank wall... Discus generate a lot of slime.... The side walls tend to get slick with slime, abd bacteria. Too much so and theres a chance that it could lead to a disease problem.. or maybe just make it so you can't see your fish. I know some have even thought that The organic build up... caused anaerobic conditions in the tank.

I don't wipe my tanks daily... but I do it every few days.

-al

[Smokey]

Rob ; Is you really from Sask-a-bush ??
Only the second person to admitt-so !!!

Welcome to the SimplyDiscus world.

I see you are wondering about the water quality; up your way. I can help you. However, like Al mentioned, to remove the brownness - you need to pass the peat conditioned water through carbon .

MPO/MPE - If you wish keep / breed any speices from south america - peat conditioned water is necessary.
Not a personal suggestion. Nature works in different ways./

Smokey

[Norm]

I've problem with fluctuating ph levels and hope that any one of you out here could advice me on stablising the ph level....

water straight from my tap has a high ph of betw 8.0 to 9.0. I aged the water overnite with aeration and that brings down the ph to abt 7.3+, which I then used for my water change routine (abt 30% daily).

However, the tank water kept showing a low ph of abt 5.4+ (sometimes hitting a low of 4+) the following day eventhough I conduct water change daily. Is there anyway to raise and stablise the ph level at abt neutral 7.0? will adding small piece of coral chips help?

[Smokey]

Rigth you are Al.
However , I do have one inquirery - I am at a loss as to the effectiveness of the peat after being carbon cleaned .

As you know, all my discus /angels, have been on peat conditioned water since day one. pH@ 6.8 all the way up to 7.4;[ I experiment a bit.].

The KG/GH numbers determine [my tank] pH.

eg - when I run raw tap water through a container of fresh peat.... The first 5 gallons of water are very soft, very soft. the KH is as low as 2 ppm, Gh at 25 ppm. the pH is below 5.5. As more water has passed through the peat, say 100 gallons u.s. - the numbers of the peat conditioned water are :
pH-6.9
KH-70ppm
GH-125ppm

The peat container has 3 gallons of peat moss, in this case.!
{ my current holding tank is a 120 gallon tank, so I adjust the amount of peat I put in the "peat bomb". ]

Back to your orginal suggestion, Al. running the peat conditioned water through a caron block; to remove the brown-ness.

would the carbon remove the medical qualities of the peat conditioned water ?

I have placed fish. in peat cond. water, that had visably signs of fungus infections and gram negative bacterial infections. IMobsevatios - the fungus/.bacteria infections cleared up in two to three days.

What are your thoughts. Ideas.

Smokey

[Jason]

I don't know if carbon filtering reduces the effects of peat moss, if you run a DE filter on your holding container the browny colour will be a bit less.

We really have to move beyond this low ph+ hardness issue, yes that's what it is in the spawning season-but there is alot of other factors at work.

and the absolute bottom line is.

conditions change from not favourable to produce offspring to a condition where it is favourable to produce young.

nature is a survivor and it will survive, the fish's whole goal in life is to pass its genes on to the next generation, and if enough conditions are right it will, that could be in ph5.5 and 2gdh or not!

[Big Boy]

I use to raise Discus about 9-10 years ago, and I have cared for freshwater fish for several years prior. I am trying to get back into things. I have 65 gallon tank and that has been completely cycled. I am trying to reacquaint myself with the latest trends and practices. I have read five different books. One on general freshwater fish care and maintenance, and the anothers on Discus specifically. And have I been talking to representatives from a reputable fish store.

I have been getting conflicting information. When I raised discus before, my tap water was already relativity soft and had a pH of 7. I live in Arizona now, and the water is very hard and the pH is about 8.2-8.4 out of the tap. On one hand I have heard (read) that Discus water needs to have a low pH and the water needs to be soft. This is how I used to maintain my discus years ago, but I had very little prep-work to do for a water change, because the water was already soft and had a low pH. I mostly just put peat in my filter and of course removed the Chlorine. On the other hand, I am also hearing that frequent water changes are most important, regardless of the tap waters pH, and that hybrid discus can handle the much higher pH’s and hard waters. As long as the pH does not fluctuate more than .2 during water changes, the discus can thrive just the same in the harder and higher pH waters.

One of the guys, at the fish store I mentioned, said he raises angelfish and Discus, and he does not adjust his pH at all. In addition, he does not add softer water, or use a reverse osmosis pump. He just adds “Tropical Science- Amazon Rain” while doing a water change. This guy, and the bottle says, this will soften the water. This can not soften the water. He is adding something to the water, so the osmotic pressure will increase. Soft water has less salts (less stuff) and therefore is has a lower osmotic pressure. Adding something to water can not really make the water softer, can it?

I have been reading the simply discus forum for several weeks now and I have read many comments. There still seems to be a lot of controversy over water quality and maintenance. Some will say the water needs to be 6.5-6 pH, while others tell you it just does matter unless you are breeding. I have read many of the forums discussions on this topic, and most agree that frequent water changes are more important than low pH and soft water. But why is there still the controversy? I even got an email from a reputable breeder in the USA, that stated to raise discus I have to have my water pH between 6-6.5. :-\

What if your tap water has a very, very high pH? Like 8.5, and is extremely hard? Can you get by with it to grow discus in a community tank? I just want a simple answer. Will my discus suffer? Or do I need make a some sort of elaborate water prep system (ie peat bomb)? :-\

I look forward to hearing from you all :D

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi BigBoy, Welcome to SimplyDiscus :wave:

I don't know that I'd be listening to the guy at the fish store. ;) any time you add something - even Tropical Science Amazon Rain to your fish tank you raise the Total Disolved Solids (TDS) which may increase hardness.

The only time I worry about hardness is when I want eggs to hatch.

My water is GH 11, TDS 176, pH 7.8

Your pH is higher than mine. Do you know what your GH or TDS is? I know we have folks in the Rockies and other hard water places raising discus - many in tap water.

Beth in Lousiana has some discus in pH 9.0+ water.

You may have to agitate your holding water to off gas CO2 in order to stablize your pH. I run a pond pump in my holding barrels for 3 hours to stabilize my water.

I suggest you give it a try and see how the discus do.

[RandalB]

Jim,
You have mail.

As info for the whole board,

What you are referring to is a common misconception and the confusion relating to it. The term that is being used is "Soft" water. Soft water has more than one definition. One definition is the lack of Magnesium and Calcium in the water. This is also water that has been processed by a home water softener where the Mg and Ca have been replaced by sodium. This water if looked at with the other definition of soft water which is most commonly used here in discus breeding can be very hard. The most commonly referred to definition of soft water in discus keeping is the lack of Dissolved Solids or ionic content of the water. RO water by definition is "Soft" (very low or nonexistant TDS or uS).

Your Petstore by using the Blackwater,etc water treatments is removing the Mg and Ca content of the water. So by one definition, the product is "Softening" the water and by the other it is making it harder (adding to the TDS and uS of the water).

I don't think that this is a "Simple" answer. Unfortunately this is a controversial topic.

Let me suffice it to say that I know dozens of people who are keeping discus successfully at your pH. It's very likely that you would have no problems w/o elaborate water prep. I keep my discus at 7.8 pH.

HTH,
RandalB

[Big Boy]

Carol,

Thanks for the quick response. My GH is 13.

I have been reading about many of you agitating your holding water to stablize your pH. I have never done it. I will get a pump tomorrow and try it. I will let you know.

What about putting a nylon full of white peat in the holding container while you are agitating it? ???

[Big Boy]

Thanks for your quick response also, Randal.

I understand what you are saying about the reduction in Mg and Ca, but the increase of the TDS.

[Smokey]

Howdey Big boy;

Like yourself, I have hard water. pH - 8.0 / GH - 340 ppm / KH - 190 ppm.; and like yourself, I have bee inandated by different water vaules and methods for achieving such values.

As you are aware, I am an advocate for using Peat moss.
Simply, effective, fully controlable, reliable, and inexpensive.

Personally, my discus water is maintaned at 45ppm - 70ppm KH. pH is maintaned at 6.8 - 7.1. I do vary the water numbers [ as it is so easy to do so], from time to time.

My suggestion - choose the numbers you and the discus/community fish are comfortable with, and maintane them.

Your idea of using the peat to condition the make-up water, has always worked for me. AND REMAINS STABLE!

Smokey

[Big Boy]

When agitating your holding water to off gas CO2 in order to stablize your pH, does the container need to have an open top?

[Carol_Roberts]

Just enough for gas to escape. I put my lid on loosley

[Smokey]

A peat bomb does not have to be elaberate!

A good ol' 5 gallon plastic bucket; with a drain hole in the lower side. I use a flow rate, for the water in @ 10 gph.

The amount of peat used will determine the final numbers of the conditioned water. e.g. - 3 gallons of peat conditions 345 Liters [ of my hard water ] to 6.8pH @ ~70KH.

All numbers are variable - flow rate, amount of peat used; amount of water processed by the peat; so run a few trial passes. Once you have determined how much peat is required for a given amont of make-up water, you can judge for your self.

Like Jason has mentioned - sometimes change is good [ nature does] .unnecessarily bouncing water around, unpredictabily and rude changes should be avoided.

Personally - I run three different types of water, through my discus tanks. slow graduation - from one to the other !

From extremely soft - 15ppm to slightly harder - 75ppm; at different times. I alter the pH from 6.0 up to 7.6.
I do notice different discus behaviours / different feeding patterns / and different social behaviours.

Some of my personal observations.

Smokey

[ahmad]

Dear Carol_Roberts

Pls , I want to know the normal range of CO2 - KH in the DISCUS tanks.

I have tank size = 140 gallon

Thanks

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Ahmad and welcome to Simplydiscus :wave:

I don't know the normal range of CO2.

I only know that water under pressure (like my well) holds more CO2 and that as this water is circulated in the aquarium or a holding tank the CO2 gas escapes into the air.

As a result the water becomes less acid and the pH rises. At a certain point the pH stabilizes because no more CO2 leaves the water.

Discus do fine in w wide range of KH 2-12 are good numbers

[Smokey]

NOPE - perhaps the problen exist's with your exisiting ground water.

Smokey

[Neophyte]

Ahmad, here's a link which may help you understand the CO@, pH, and hardness relationship.
http://groups.msn.com/LyreTailsAquarium/understandingph.msnw

I hope this works...otherwise copy and paste it.

[realbetta]

This is big help. I would not try to keep Discus otherwise.
Thanks

[nokoto]

Hi Peeps

Hope I'm not going to put a spanner in the works here...

Here's what I found simple but effective...

When you get your tank PLAY WITH WATER FIRST!!! Understand the water volume exactly to many people OD there fish because it's an estimate normally... Sorry I'm sidetracking as I was saying once you have the water put the bog wood, rock etc in as you can OBTIAN A BALANCE, this is the key... for example I can put KH+ neat in my tank and the tank will balance back to what it was...

How does this help, simple you can obtain the PH value you require the offset, then you don't have to panic too much since your water will ajust automatically...

UNDERSTANDING WATER IS THE KEY, FISH AND PLANTS JUST FALL INTO PLACE THERE AFTER...

8) Coool job done

Wayne

[trace_russ]

Hi guys,

Wow reading this has made me reconsider what I do with my tanks.

I have been told like so many of you that ph needs to be between 6.5 and 7 no lower and definatly no higher.

I am in Australia where the water is shocking (just ask Rod Lewis) and my ph out of the tap is around 8.

I hate fiddling around with ph buffers and making sure the ph is 6.8 when I water change as it takes me ages to get it right, But i work at a lfs and we do straight w/c's and check the ph afterwards and if above 7 we ph down.

I am so confused now as I'm not sure if I am doing the right thing for my fish by lowering the ph from the tap. I am also starting to get my fish to spawn and the tank at 6.8 they seem to like.

So what do I do, leave them at 6.8 or slowly raise the ph untill its the same as from the tap ??? ???

Please advise me

Trace :)

[ronrca]

Hi Trace,
I understand your dilemna! When I first started with discus, I was not a member of simplydiscus (actually, I dont think simplydiscus was started yet) and from doing research on my own, I also tried ph down, acids, buffers, etc! Luckily I did this in a seperate bucket and not in my tanks. I never could use this water because I was always crashing the ph. I would add a little, wait 12 hours.....not enough, add a little more until it crashed so I was never able to acheive the 'desired' ph. It was really frustrating. It was around that time that I became a member here and I didnt have to change my ph just add my water? Wow!

So, from my experience, trying to change water parameters is a pain in the butt (unless your breeding) using chemicals. It you make a mistake, you have to start all over again. Then, you cant really be doing massive daily water changes. Now, my ph is 7.8 aged and every 4-6hours I can do a wc! I dont have to worry about adding this or that. If you do want to lower ph or conductivity for breeding, RO mixed with tap is the best. ;)


So what do I do, leave them at 6.8 or slowly raise the ph untill its the same as from the tap? Well, that would be up to you to decide if you want to continue to add stuff to your water. Now you know that it is not neseccary to do so. Believe me, its a peace of mind knowing that you didnt mess up the water parameters by adding this or that! I would slowly start raising the ph to your aged tap water. ;)

[Carol_Roberts]

You can safely raise the pH just by doing your regular water changes with aged tap water. No need to ever add acid again. ;D

[Big Boy]

I have been told like so many of you that ph needs to be between 6.5 and 7 no lower and definatly no higher.

I am in Australia where the water is shocking (just ask Rod Lewis) and my ph out of the tap is around 8.


I understand completely. I am in the same situation here in Arizona, where the tap water has a pH of 8. I used to raise discus years (7-9 years) ago and I alway kept my pH at 6.5 with the use of chemicals. I started again in June this year. Months before I started I read many books, read many forums opinions, ("Simply Discus" has been great) and on this tank I have now, I have never adjusted the pH. I just do frequent water changes, and my discus are doing great. my juveniles actually are growing out faster than they had previously when I was trying to adjust the pH. My juvies were about 1 and 1/2 inches in June, and now I have a couple that are about 4 inches. I know now that I was stressing my discus trying to maintain a pH of 6.5 with the use of chemicals, I can see the difference in their behavior. You know what they say, "hind sight is 20/20," and we learn from our past mistakes. Frequent water changes is the way to go. ;)

[ronrca]

Thanks Jimbo for sharing your experience! Compared to 7-9 years ago, hasnt the internet changed the hobby? Isnt it great? ;)

[Gunnie]

Hi! This is my first post here, and all the reading I've been doing on this forum is very interesting and helpful. I am very interested in starting a discus tank in either 55 gallon or 110. I knew they were a little more difficult than say a betta or a tetra, but I've been in this hobby almost a year, and feel I am ready. After reading through this whole thread, I was relieved to read I would not have to "pre-condition" the water because my ph is 7.6. That makes keeping discus much more doable for me, and have a simple question for the pros. If my ph tests 7.6 right out of the tap, and it has the same reading in one of my running tanks, can I safely do water changes with a python? Of course I will add dechlor when adding the new water to the tank. Also, can someone please direct me to any thread here that explains how to safely acclimate these fish to your tank, because all the LFS I've gone to and asked about discuss, they always have their tanks at a ph of around 7? I don't want to shock my fish to death when I get them home. :o

[Ardan]

Hi and Welcome!

Take a bucket of water and put an airstone in it overnight and see if the ph stays the same. If it does then you can do wc's from the faucet.
The ph in the tank that is the same may be affected by the bio cycle or things in the tank.

To put discus in ph that is higher is no problem, plop them in :)
It is best to get healthy discus from the start. Be sure the lfs has good fish or order from a reputable breeder. I am much happier since I have gotten discus from someone I now trust. In the past the lfs discus were not that good for me and he ships all over the U.S. and Canada (I'm not sure where you live). I have since gotten discus from Cary at GLD and I recommend him highly. there are others around too that I am sure are good. Its entirely up to you, these are just my experiences. :)

hth

[Jim_Guz]

Randal B (also wouldn't mind other opinions): I have a couple of freshwater stingrays I am keeping in Chgo city water, using Peat in the filter and driftwood to soften the water. Have had them for 3-4 weeks and they seem to be doing great. I've seen them kept with discus at Scott's in Westchester, IL (quite stunning together!). I used to keep discus many years ago and the bug has bitten again. I've read your article on not having to alter pH. Interesting, since you're selling RO equipment. So you're telling me then, not to invest in RO equipment. I just want to be sure that my investment in fish is protected....the rays have already cost me big bucks and by the time I add the discus, the investment will be substantial.

When doing water changes, do you just let the Chgo water flow directly from the tap into your tank (temp matched and adding dechlorinator, obviously!) or would it be more important for me to get a garbage can set up to age the water first?

Thanks for your time and advice in advance.

[RandalB]

Jim,
RO equipment is more of a special purpose item than you might think. Not everyone needs it. You definately don't need it to raise discus in Chicago. All my fish except the breeders are in Chicago Tap and doing great.

Our water has enough kH that the pH doesn't drop after aging. I go right from the tap with a squirt of dechlor.

RandalB

[abc]

New to the forum and was looking into water quality issues. My pH and water is high, 7.5, but it sounds as if I should not try to soften it.

I'm a chicagolander.

Thanks for all the good info.

abc

[ShinShin]

Well, I am one of those that think discus should really be kept in soft, acidic water. I hadn't had any success in breeding discus while living in Pennsylvania using the tap water. Most of the water in that area of the state was from limestone river systems. I bought a small DI water system and immediately discus began to spawn. Their coloration also improved dramatically.

I moved back to the Pacific Northwest with tap water at 6.5pH, and 50 microseimens. Again, discus spawn everywhere.

Discus evolved in certain water conditions. Different species discus also live in water parameters that vary according to species. I think they will always do better in water that meets their evolutionary needs. Most people who have had trouble with discus because of their attempts to alter water parameters from their tap to parameters better suited for discus, most likely just lack the skill or knowledge to propperly do so. This can be learned.

Mat (not the same Mat that posted earlier in this thread)

[PDX-PLT]

To put discus in ph that is higher is no problem, plop them in :)

Really? Is that true!?

[Mattie]

Over the years, I've been trying to keep Discus in the simpliest method. To me, Discus keeping should be like guppy breeding. As long as the cleanliness of the tank water is maintain, there will be minimum casualty or disease breakout.
Today in my hatchery that consist of 119 tanks in total, I'm breeding and raising all my Discus with direct tap water that contains Chlorine, Chloramine and pH of 7.8-8.2. I do not see the need for a storage tank as I understand that Chloramine will not be dissipated through aging like Chlorine. It need to be neutralized instead. In order to make my life easier and more cost effective, I've trained all the fish that I'm keeping; Arowana, stingrays, Wild Altum Angels, Show Bettas and Show Guppies etc to tolerate 100% water change with direct tap water without any additive whatsoever. Of course, not to mention about my Discus stocks that experience 200% water change daily. Its only if the fish are trained to withstand harsh conditions like mine at a tender age, will the hobbyists be able to enjoy fsh keeping then to spend a bomb on unnecessary equipments and becoming the slave for his fish.

David Lim
:antlers:
Taken from MondoDiscus

[Ardan]

Really? Is that true!?
ph 7.6 is fine even higher to 8.0 is fine.

hth
Ardan

[poconogal]

My tank now runs 7.9 - 8.0, tap is 8.1 - 8.2. I use tap only for changes, don't need to dechlor as I'm on my own well. My Discus spawn weekly and I get wigglers every time, because although tap PH is high, my water is soft, KH 4 and GH 5 out of the tap, 4 dkh and 4 dgh in the tank. That tells me that PH is not really as important for breeding as KH and GH.

[PDX-PLT]

ph 7.6 is fine even higher to 8.0 is fine.


What as was wondering about was the "plop them in" part. Surely, they need to be acclimated gradually(!?).

[RandalB]

Nope, they don't.

I never acclimated a discus (or a saltwater fish,coral or invertibrate) and I've never had a problem with any of them.

On the discus end, I've gone from pH 4.0 in the bag to 7.8 in the tank, temp 68 to 88. No problems, no illness, no losses.

On the Salt end, Bag pH 6 to Tank pH 8.2, salinity 1.025 to 1.009 (qt), temp 65 to 78. No problems, no illness, no losses.

JMPE,
RandalB

[Timbo]

i dont think there is a thing wrong with gradual acclimization, but as many have pointed out, it appears unnecessary

[Discus_KC]

Plop and drop may work for most but not here. Just look at the PH reading out of the tap. 10.64 if you can't make it out. For the majority of hobbyists this is a thread to build their confidence up. I'm just fearful that some new hobbyists will take this as the normal thing to do and lose every fish they have. I may be the only exception out there but I am a exception. So is KC for the most part.

Just my perspective on the topic.

Jack

[eddie238]

hi Randal.
I`m new to the hobby,and I`m gald to hear we dont have to mess with the tap water`s Ph. My questions is: I`m going to order discus fish online,and the breeder told me that their fish was shipped in pure r/o water,and they recommend I use r/o water too,and my tap water ph in california is around 8. so when I receive the fish can I just put the fish in my ph8 tap water?(of course the water is been cycled for four weeks with some neon tetra)
thanks!

[waj8]

I think in general fish don't give a crap about pH. I too killed my first fish due to some LFS guy telling me to adjust my pH to 7. The proof that fish don't care about pH is in a planted tank with CO2 injection. I do not see any difference in fish behavior with CO2 injection or without it. The water stays the same but the pH changes and as long as the change is gradual the fish don't care.

I think one of the traps that beginners get fall into is the "pH out of the tap trap." The pH out of the tap is not relevant. To test your tap water pH you must aerate your water to bring the CO2 levels in line with normal atmospheric CO2 levels. I always cringe when someone gives pH readings straight from the tap without aeration. It leads to some pretty crazy conclusions.

[boxters]

So what I'm hearing here is that if you jump from a warm shower into an ice cold one, you won't get a shock. If that's the attitude towards fish with ph an acclimation, I would urge you to get ready for lots of dead or sick fish. Just because they don't show symptoms straight away, does not mean they are not affected and believe me I have worked with a fish vet for a few years and I'm telling you, you are doing major damage

[tcyiu]

I`m going to order discus fish online,and the breeder told me that their fish was shipped in pure r/o water,and they recommend I use r/o water too,and my tap water ph in california is around 8. so when I receive the fish can I just put the fish in my ph8 tap water?(of course the water is been cycled for four weeks with some neon tetra)
thanks!

eddie238,
If you'll look at the date of the original post, you'll see that this is a very old thread. You would do better to start a new thread.

But that said, here's a couple of notes on your situation:

If a seller of fish say that they keep their discus in pure R/O, that is wrong. I would run, not walk away. That indicates that a) they are lying or b) they do not understand water chemistry and discus requirements. You should not buy fish from this individual. There are plenty of sponsors on this website who are reputable.

Secondly, if possible, try to buy from people who have water conditions that are similar to yours. i.e. same or similar water source. That would reduce any stress issues relating to adapting to new water conditions. But this is NOT a requirement.

Discus can adapt to new conditions - if given the right acclimation period.

Are you picking up discus and driving them home? Or are you having them shipped?

If the discus are traveling less than a few hours, the acclimation is much simpler. Put them in a container with the water they came in, drip the tank water in with a very small plastic tube (such as an airline tube). After the temperature has stabilized, net them into the quarantine tank. Discard the water they came. Cover the tank and keep them stress free for a few days. Don't introduce food that will decay for a day. If you have clean live food that you trust, you can try that putting that into the tank.

If the fish are being shipped, you have a slightly more challenging problem. There is some debate about what happens to shipping water once exposed to fresh air again. Do a search for that topic and read up on how to acclimate shipped fish.

BTW, if you buy from the more reputable sponsors here, don't be surprised if the fish bounce right back and start begging for food within a couple of hours.

Tim

[eddie238]

thank you TCYICU:
I haven`t order the fish yet. The seller told me the R/O water is just for shipping purpose,keep the ph very low so the amonia won`t kill the fish during shipping.
And I`m looking to buy fish from the forum here!

[KeeperNtheClouds]

quite interesting. I have always heard and read in many different sources that especially for discus, the ph needs to mimic the lower ph's in the wild. So glad to read this.

[Bilbo]

quite interesting. I have always heard and read in many different sources that especially for discus, the ph needs to mimic the lower ph's in the wild. So glad to read this. Now that was a heck of a bump, LOL. This thread is 10 years old.....

[Woodduck]

Why in the world would you tell a possible newbie that "If you can drink your tap water, your fish can live in it." Lots of tap waters are good enough to drink, but will kill any fish in a minute. Of course you mean AFTER adding water conditioner, but it's never mentioned. I don't understand this forum. Ph is another issue that I don't think is properly portrayed. Yes, they might "live" in it (high ph), but are they at their best? A few give their ideas, and the rest seem to follow. I guess I can keep following and see if it takes me to more knowledge. I hope so.
Woodduck

[rickztahone]

Why in the world would you tell a possible newbie that "If you can drink your tap water, your fish can live in it." Lots of tap waters are good enough to drink, but will kill any fish in a minute. Of course you mean AFTER adding water conditioner, but it's never mentioned. I don't understand this forum. Ph is another issue that I don't think is properly portrayed. Yes, they might "live" in it (high ph), but are they at their best? A few give their ideas, and the rest seem to follow. I guess I can keep following and see if it takes me to more knowledge. I hope so.
Woodduck

There are many discus owners that have used their tap water at 8 pH with no ill effects. The more important aspect of pH is for it to be stable.

[matakara]

Can we say higher ph meaning less fertilized egss or hatch rate.

[John_Nicholson]

Can we say higher ph meaning less fertilized egss or hatch rate.

Within reason it is the hardness and not the ph that makes a difference.

-john

[limige]

my big debate right now is how low is still ok?
my RO water is at 6, if I use RO right to bring up the tds but that doesn't change the PH. so should I stick with 6 or mix in some well water to bring the PH up? just 1/2 gallon of well to 30 gallon RO raises the PH up to about 6.7

the ph would probably be more stable if i'm not changing it and leave it at 6 but this will reduce the number of good bacteria in the filter. I've noticed a bit of difference in that respect.

[Second Hand Pat]

my big debate right now is how low is still ok?
my RO water is at 6, if I use RO right to bring up the tds but that doesn't change the PH. so should I stick with 6 or mix in some well water to bring the PH up? just 1/2 gallon of well to 30 gallon RO raises the PH up to about 6.7

the ph would probably be more stable if i'm not changing it and leave it at 6 but this will reduce the number of good bacteria in the filter. I've noticed a bit of difference in that respect.

Depends on what your goals are with your fish. Do you know what your kh is? Are we talking wilds or domestics?

[Woodduck]

I completely agree, John. I think what I was trying to say was if they feel better to court and spawn (with the lower ph, doesn't that tell us something about what they want. If you can't keep it in the 6's, then completely consistant is a close second best.

[limige]

i'm breeding, don't have a test kit for KH i'm just worried the RO right may not contain any buffer for ph. since its straight RO then it may be unstable.

the fry will be acclimated to well water that is 8.2. but for breeding i'm looking at 6's. i'm just worried 6.0 is aweful low. going through some of the older post I see some ppl were running a ph of 5 so I guess its not as bad as I thought.

right now I have a pair of discus and a pair of angels i'm working

[Second Hand Pat]

For breeding I would suggest being more concerned about hardness or GH. A GH of about 70ppm or 4 oGH. Let the ph fall where it will.
Pat

[limige]

thanks pat I have that end figured out, i'm more concerned about a ph crash

[Second Hand Pat]

Then best to get a API GH/KH test kit. :)

[limige]

yeah I suppose that would be the best route.

[Woodduck]

Before I got hurt, I use to raise dogs as a hobby. I knew breeders and hunters that fed their dogs bread that the local factory sold dirt cheap. Bread and water. That's it. I never heard of one dying, but just because you "know somebody" that does that, doesn't make it the right way to go. Oh, and MANY discus owners do an 8ph? Name 10.

[Second Hand Pat]

I do. I keep domestics in 8.2 which is the ph of my well water after aging for four hours. I have also raised wild discus fry in such water.
Pat

[limige]

raising yes. how about breeding?

many ppl keep discus in high ph no problems. my issues came because i'm trying to breed. used ro to lower the tds and the ph dropped to 6. question is now how to buffer it and remain at 6-6.5 I dont' wish to change it much from where it naturally is from the ro. meaning no ph bounce

[Second Hand Pat]

I only worry about a low GH (70ppm) for breeding purposes.
Pat

[John_Nicholson]

"Oh, and MANY discus owners do an 8ph? Name 10" Really? Who are you to tell people to name 10? If you do not want to keep your at 8 then don't. What many of us are saying is that unless your ph is completely off the charts it is far better to keep a stable ph by leaving it alone than it is to mess with it. The vast majority of people do not have to skill to do so and all they do is cause their ph to bounce, often killing their fish. I have no clue what my ph runs. I do not bother to check it because in the long run it just really does not matter in most situations. If you want to breed then get an RO unit, make suer your water is soft and then raise all of the babies you want.

-john

[limige]

you do have to be mindful of it though because if you take fry from my breeding tank at RO mixed at a ph of 6 and dump them into the well water of 8.3 they may have some issues.

I am curious about low ph affects on spawns. ive been told lower ph helps but I wonder who is successfully breeding in higher ph's and what kind of hatch rate they saw.

this pair had a very nice hatch rate in a ph of 6 with a tds of 122. straight ro/di mixed with the ro right from kent marine.

[inigomontoya]

"Oh, and MANY discus owners do an 8ph? Name 10" Really? Who are you to tell people to name 10? If you do not want to keep your at 8 then don't. What many of us are saying is that unless your ph is completely off the charts it is far better to keep a stable ph by leaving it alone than it is to mess with it. The vast majority of people do not have to skill to do so and all they do is cause their ph to bounce, often killing their fish. I have no clue what my ph runs. I do not bother to check it because in the long run it just really does not matter in most situations. If you want to breed then get an RO unit, make suer your water is soft and then raise all of the babies you want.

-john

Is there a way to like posts here?

[rickztahone]

Is there a way to like posts here?

There is no like system, sorry.

[Woodduck]

Ants at a picnic. We are not talking about "the people who do not have the skill". Who are you to label different skill levels of discus owners. Where do you put yourself in that grouping? A guy new to the forum, but defintely not the sport has an opinion and the charter members jump on with both feet. I don't think anybody OR their discus would be happy with that high of ph. It's been known from Dr. Axelrodi's days and still applies. If they breed better and the fry do better, they're telling you something. I choose to listen. You can learn alot by listening.
Woodduck

[John_Nicholson]

I am simply a guy who raises literally thousands of discus a year and has for about the last 20 or so. A guy who has seen what happens when people try to mess with their ph. If you think your fish will do better at a lower ph than by all means do that, but until you have tried just leaving it alone I don't think you should be offering advice that you don't know anything about. Do what you want with your fish but when you start offering advice that can very easily cause new folks to kill their discus then I will step in to offer my opinion as someone that has been there and done that. Axlerodi ? LOL. When you do the whole google, copy and paste deal you ought to at least get it right. His name is Axlerod.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

you do have to be mindful of it though because if you take fry from my breeding tank at RO mixed at a ph of 6 and dump them into the well water of 8.3 they may have some issues.

I am curious about low ph affects on spawns. ive been told lower ph helps but I wonder who is successfully breeding in higher ph's and what kind of hatch rate they saw.

this pair had a very nice hatch rate in a ph of 6 with a tds of 122. straight ro/di mixed with the ro right from kent marine.


I have never had a fish that had issues with going from a lower ph to a higher ph. It is the other way around that causes problems. When you get fish shipped in the ph is often very low in the bags but not in your tanks. Most of us will suggest that you just take the fish out of the bag and throw it in the tank. The last thing you want is any of the old bad water in your tank or any of your clean tank water in the bag. At the low ph in the bag the ammonia is locked away. The golden rule going from a lower temp to a higher temp...fine....going from a lower ph to a higher ph fine.....The other way around may or may not cause problems depending on the exact situation.

-john

[Woodduck]

Dear John
You're dead wrong, I was thinking of him when I wrote that, but my brain said his name in what matters most to us. Symphysodon aequifasciata AXELRODI.
Dr. Herbert R. Axelrod
President
T.F.H. Publications, Inc.
I have the original bible by Dr. William T. Innes that I've had before you were born. So get off my back, please. I don't want your spot, whatever that is. Your way might be right, but mine is definitely not wrong. In any circle..
Woodduck

[Woodduck]

86307

[Woodduck]

86308

[John_Nicholson]

I have the same book and I know exactly who Axlerod is but thanks.

-john

[Discus-n00b]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

[brewmaster15]

Sigh... yet another pH battle....Without naming anyone, I can pretty much say we have people that have Discus happily swimming in waters that range from the 5.0s- mid 8s here.

But just for kicks and be cause I Really like the poll function... I'll run a poll to see where everyones water is at these days... aged..mines in the 7.6-7.8 range and I have kept domestics and wilds including Heckels in it for years.

al

[John_Nicholson]

Well said Matt.

-john

[XAnhLe]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

+1

Great writing Matt.

[brewmaster15]

Poll posted...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?119281-The-%28Yet-Another%29-Water-pH-Poll

[DiscusBR]

There are a million ways plus some to do things in this hobby and we are all passionate about our way of doing things. However what works for some may not work for others. The good thing about forums is you can share your successes and failures with everyone to develop more knowledge and progression in the hobby as a whole. The even better part is you don't have to do what other people are doing. There have been multiple posts on here about a WIDE range of pH's and the success that has come from them, spawning and raising fry included (pictures as well). I think a lot of people in this hobby K.I.S.S. and take what is given to them in their area and work with it. As we ALL know pH fluctuations do more damage than a high or low pH at a consistent level would by themselves so tinkering with it is not the best option for everyone, especially someone entering the hobby who has been reading those publications from the 60s-70s that say there is only one way to do things and they start trying to drop their water to amazon levels. I don't care if you keep Discus or Guppies that's true across the board. I never check the pH in my Tropheus tank but I know its not at rift lake levels. Fish are starting to breed, show great color, and eat everything I give them....however I refuse to chase a number. I think with wild fish you may have a case for a lower pH, but with domestic bred fish that are further removed from the amazon than the dinosaurs are from walking the earth (not really but you get the idea) then I don't agree with that.

Is that to say that pH of 6 and 8 are on an even playing field? Maybe, maybe not. I think it is general knowledge that harder water causes eggs to harden faster and prevents fertilization success especially with an inexperienced male. But to say one is better than the other is naive. There are so many other factors at play here. Put an average unconditioned pair in a tank with pH of 6, have a decent spawn. Put a well conditioned pair in a tank of 8 and have a gigantic spawn. On the surface you would side with the pH of 8 tank. But dig deeper and we're talking fish health, vitality, breeding experience (does the male know what he's doing)....everything beyond JUST the water. What it boils down to is a vast amount of water parameters are acceptable for these fish and we should no longer live in the 60s where everyone thought the discus would drop dead with anything but bottled amazon water.

I thank these gentlemen for their early contributions to the hobby but the fact is time has sped past them and they are relics of a different era. Do some of their methods and teachings still hold true? Of course. Is that the only way? Not even close. Brings me back to the forum. Thanks to technology now we have connections with people from all walks of life all around the world from breeder to hobbyist and we can see the vast differences in keeping/breeding techniques. The information is out there, you have to be the one that chooses what method you adopt for yourself and your own situation. There is a well worn path already cut through the woods, but does that mean you can't step off of it and still find the log cabin at the end? Not at all. We're all humans, we don't like change so once we find what works for us we stick with it and as is clearly shown we are passionate about letting others know about it.

Let us get back to the topic at hand, pH and not having to tinker with it for discus.

:thumbsup:

[Woodduck]

It seems You should google him. Axelrod, not Axlerod. You jumped on my very first post very negatively and have not let up. Let's be friends with the same goals if not different means. Deal?
Woodduck

[John_Nicholson]

Good with me. I am not mad at you at all. I am just very straight forward and some folks don't take that well. It was not you I was going after it as your advice that I had issues with. Hope to see you at a NADA show at some point. We will sit around and talk fish....and there is nothing more funny then when one person post about a typo and then turns around and makes a typo f their own......LOL.

-john

[nc0gnet0]

Oh, and MANY discus owners do an 8ph? Name 10.


A guy new to the forum, but defintely not the sport has an opinion and the charter members jump on with both feet. I don't think anybody OR their discus would be happy with that high of ph. It's been known from Dr. Axelrodi's days and still applies. If they breed better and the fry do better, they're telling you something. I choose to listen. You can learn alot by listening.
Woodduck

You can add me to that list of 10. For the record I don't find pH a particularly useful measurement at all, but rather TDS is a more accurate assessment of what is really effecting the discus. Most of the myth from the early days regarding low pH had to do with the loose correlation of the two, and the fact many of the specimens hobbyist were working with simply had not been properly acclimated.

-Rick

[Discus-n00b]

and there is nothing more funny then when one person post about a typo and then turns around and makes a typo f their own......LOL.

Well now this is embarrassing....;) LOL

And I agree Rick, TDS seems to be a far better measure.

[zchauvin]

After reading this mess I'll chime in and say that I've kept Wild Tefe greens in ph 8.4 and Tds of 440. They all came out perfectly fine... Then I tried to "fix" my water to better suite my heckels and boy was that a mess. 6.2 going in and 7.6 coming out, this after only 24hrs of being in the tank.

[cvarena21989]

Hello all,

I realize this thread is many years old and I apologize if I missed this being answered earlier beyond the "stable is key" quotes. I WILL be a new discus keep within the next few months when I move and purchase a house. I called water treatment facilities serving the area I'm going to move to and ph ranged from 7.6-8.4 depending on which particular facility is supplying the water. the hardness is roughly 220 ppm. I am in love with wild blues, would they survive in these conditions or would I be hurting them? I do not want to invest thousands in stock for me to kill them with their housing.

Chris

[coralbandit]

Get a TDS meter !
Before you invest you need the whole story of your water.
pH can be very misleading IMO .

[Sandip]

Apologies for posting on a very old thread. As I continue to prepare my tank, I was having some doubts/concerns about my tap water ph, tds, kh and gh.

In my house, tap water is:
pH = 7.6 - 7.7. After aging with prime, air-stone and heater, pH = 7.8-7.9
TDS = 110-130
kh = 2-3 dKH
gh = 4-6 dKH

Reading this thread gave me some peace of mind that I do not need to mess with water chemistry.
I want to thank the admins and moderators for keeping access to these old threads.

[jeep]

The older parts of this forum are never outdated! It's good you take the time to read and learn instead of taking advice from google, lol...

[fljones3]

Sandip, I am in the Richmond area. Water is fine although in the Fall, they can muck with it a little. I have bred and raised discus in this water. You are fine.

[Sandip]

Sandip, I am in the Richmond area. Water is fine although in the Fall, they can muck with it a little. I have bred and raised discus in this water. You are fine.


Thank you Frank that gives me some hope. I live in the west end, near short pump. I am seeing chloramines in the water. Hopefully Prime will take care of it and then the BB in the filter will consume it quickly enough. This is consistent with Henrico county water report.

[fljones3]

Prime takes care of mine. I will take time later to read the thread you sent, but if I remember correctly the PH drop was due to other factors.
I don’t do anything with my water presently.

[Raul-7]

But I enjoy playing with water chemistry; I'm a firm believer in consistency but also in the fact that we should replicate their preferred water conditions to our best ability. I love RO water, much better than the liquid crap that comes out of my tap.

I won't recommend keeping blackwater species in high TDS, pH, DGH water no matter how consistent the parameters are.

[brewmaster15]

Raul what are the parameters out of your tap?
Al

[Raul-7]

Last I tested: around 400 ppm, dKH ~ 9 and dGH ~ 11. All I know it's terrible.

[brewmaster15]

Last I tested: around 400 ppm, dKH ~ 9 and dGH ~ 11. All I know it's terrible.


They are high.. however.. Stendkers hatchery had even higher values and they churned out many many many discus.

136490

Al

[Bart_NL]

In my community tank, tap water of pH > 8 but in my breeding tank pH is going down...

I have a RO water storage tank of 100 liters, in which I re-mineralize the water to 100 μS/cm, pH settles at 7.2

However in the breeding tank, 125 liter with canister filter the pH is dropping below 6, values of 5.7 and even lower do worry me.

But, reading this thread I am NOT going to do anything about it, except bigger water changes, right ?

Even if this feels wrong, Right ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bart, how fast is your pH changing? I would suggest to re-mineralize to about 80 TDS. You are about 50 ATM. What's your kH at? Would suggest about 4. Adding a bit of tap water may help. Also WCs might be all that is needed depending on how fast your ph is dropping.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

In my community tank, tap water of pH > 8 but in my breeding tank pH is going down...

I have a RO water storage tank of 100 liters, in which I re-mineralize the water to 100 μS/cm, pH settles at 7.2

However in the breeding tank, 125 liter with canister filter the pH is dropping below 6, values of 5.7 and even lower do worry me.

But, reading this thread I am NOT going to do anything about it, except bigger water changes, right ?

Even if this feels wrong, Right ?

How much water do you change in your breeder and how often?