DO NOT USE STRAIGHT RO WATER!!

If you are just starting out with discus, please learn from my mistake and DO NOT use straight RO water! I did this for over a year, changing 30% of water daily and had no problems.... I thought.

When the day came that I got a breeding pair and put them in their own tank, they had tons of babies. Because I didn't have enough RO water to water change all my tanks daily, I decided not to change the water as frequently in my 75 adult tank and instead use it for water changes toward the breeding pair with babies tank. This caused my pH in my 75 to crash!

I woke up one morning, and almost all my fish were on their sides, some floating around, dark, clamped and hitting the tank wall as hard as they could- literally freaking out! I was devastated and did not know what to do and they looked like they were going to DIE!!!! (I have close to 1000 dollars worth of fish in that tank!)

I immediately did a water change, and left for work. When I got home, they were a little better- but not much! I called Brew and he told me why I needed to mix treated tap water with RO. I followed his advice and slowly added treated tap water and now use 20% tap with 80% RO all the time. (thank goodness I lost no fish- they all recovered..... THANK YOU so much Brew- you saved my fish!!!)

I can say that by following this 20/80 rule, I have seen the following difference with my fish:

1) they are no longer skittish
2) they are happy- always swimming around!!! No longer hanging by the bottom of the tank
3) More perked and colorful- not dark and never clamped
4) they eat better and beg for food
5) they really looked healthier

If you are a beginner, please read other's experiences, so you can save yourself the heartache and have a great experience with your new discus! This forum is filled with great advice and I am so thankful everyday when I look at my fish that I found it!!!!

Weezy ;D

[Jeffery_Doty]

Weezy,

A great post! It is very tempting to think that if 80% R/O works great, 100% should be better! Not so. Thank you for pointing that out.

Jeff
Oregon

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Weezy! :)

I'm so glad you didn't lose any! When I first started using RO, I didn't realize how quickly the pH could drop in a heavily stocked tank, with no buffers, Its scary. I lost some :-[ :'( but I learned from it.

I think often times we try to match the low conductivity of the amazon waters too closely, and the forget That the water there is always turning over and being "changed" not so in our tanks all the time.


This is good advise for many. Learn about Buffers and water chemistry as much as you can!

take care,
al

[April]

glad you didnt lose any weezy.
i have had a crash also....cause my water is almost ro. and yes...if you dont keep up with the changes it just keeps sliding. also...i was told you dont get good growth etc with that mineral poor water. minerals need to be added back in. its not very good seeing them freaking and bouncing off the walls..and jumping ship. takes them a few days to get over it.

[tyrancooper]

Before I set up my 40 breeder for the first time one of the clerks at a LFS told me to definitely use only R/O water if I wanted to have success raising discus. I have used 100% R/O water from the beginning (6 mos.) with my 4 juvenile blue diamonds.

Now that I've read Weezy's post an the replies that followed, I am going to try the 80:20 ratio with my next water change. My fish presently exhibit a lot of the same behaviors that Weezy was able to eradicate by adding a small proportion of tap water and I hope the same will happen for me.

Wish me luck!

Tyra

[brewmaster15]

Hi Tyra,
Actually go less than that , slowly work up to that ratio, or one close to it that works for your water. Too fast may harm the fish.

How familar are you with aging water, pH and water hardness?

I would suggest putting a post in the water section on the board, describing what you do now, and give info on your tap parameters. Ask for advice there. Or email me, and I'll try to help you work your way thru it , or put you in contact with someone who can.

hth,
al

ps next time that clerk offers you advice, advise them not to give it to you! :)

[RandalB]

Tyra,
What are the parameters of your tap water and How old are your fish?

You might be better off raising your juveniles in your Tap water until they get old enough to breed. This is provided that your tap water does not have dissolved organic or other noxious chemicals in it. Discus like other fish get a portion of their needed mineral content from the water they are in, the juveniles need more than the adults because of their growth. I understand that Jack Wattley did some experiments where he showed that Juvenile discus raised in hard water did better than ones that were raised in soft water. They apparently get some of the calcium for bone structure from the water they are in... Keeping fish in straight RO water is dangerous both developmentally and from the pH standpoint.

As far as bringing your Current RO water up to your tap water conditions, do 15-25% daily water changes until the water reads the same as your tap. I do this when removing salt or bringing fish to breeding conditions. I have been told by a major breeder that it is also a good idea to give even adults and breeding pairs a break in harder water to avoid problems. If you wish to use a RO/Tap mix, Experiment with even ratios to make it easier to be consistant. 50-50, 25-75, etc. Premix it and follow the above 15-25% water change routine. It is probably not necessary to mix RO/Tap for growout though.

I am interested in your water parameters, Please let us know what they are.

Hope this helps,
RandalB

[RandalB]

Tyra,
I answered my own question about your water when I saw you live in Chicago.

Your water is pH 7.8 out of the tap and stable, your Gh is 8 and your Kh is 6. The water reads around 178-200 PPM TDS out of the tap. This is of course seasonal but the pH stays about the same year round, This water is perfect for raising young discus. Don't bother mixing RO for the young'uns.

When You get a pair, use a 75%-25% RO to Tap mix which will put you around pH 6.2-6.8 with a TDS around 100-120. Nice and stable as long as you w/c 50% at least every other day. Make sure to change the water slowly to bring it to tap conditions as explained above and use 2X the normal dechlorinator as it is winter time and the UV sterilizers are off right now at the Chicago Water treatment plants, so they are really pumping in the Chlorine.

Regards to a fellow southsider,
RandalB

[YZFR1rider]

With this ratio of R/O and tap water effect other species of fish in the tank also? I have not researched this R/O water much.

Matt

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: OK, guys, don't want to muddy the waters, but, I'm using straight r/o for all my fish. I tried the tap r/o mix & got into big trouble, lost a few fish & all had been doing well 'til then; this is some time ago, but left me with fear of trying that again. I'm sure my well water is not very good out of tap, actually out of water softener, which has taken out the good minerals & substituted sodium, but I'm not sure it was the sodium that was the culprit. Anyway, started using 100% r/o, reconstituting it with the salt recipe, epsom, aquarium, & CASO4 (food grade). My fish have been very happy since, & actually try to breed in the community tank. So, if you use straight r/o, one must replenish the minerals that are stripped out in order for the fish to have the necessities for growth etc. JMO, Dottie :o :o

[RandalB]

Dottie, Glad to see you back!

No confusion, you got it exactly right. There is no reason not to use straight RO if you are reconstituting your mineral content. It is using straight RO with no minerals added that is the problem.

Also, Matt,
The ratios I mentioned above are for Chicago Municipal tap water and are not Necessarily the way to go for everyone. Tap water is a huge variable from place to place. As far as effecting other fish, they should be allright just as discus are. Unless you are dealing with hard water africans or brackish fish.

RandalB

[tyrancooper]

Thanks Al and RandalB!

Although I had been using 100% RO water, I would always add 1/2 teaspoon of Kent Marine's "R/O Right" for every 10 gallons of water. (When the LFS clerk that I mentioned before saw me purchasing the "R/O Right, he told me that I really did not need to use it at all. However, I did some reading and found out that somehow mineral poor water has a way of leeching minerals from the plants and animals that are in it. Needless to say, I did not take the LFS clerk's advice that time!)

In the first few months that I had the juvenile BD's, I was also using Kent Marines "pH control Minus", until I learned from Simply Discus that that was not necessary for such young discus.

I tested the pH every few days, and from time to time it would really crash and then I would use Kent Marine's "pH Stable" to try to slowly guide it back up.

Another reason why I was so afraid to use the tap water was because tap water in chicago has so much chlorine in it that a glass of it smells like it came from a swimming pool. This is especially true in the summer. (I always use a dechlorinator in tap water for all of my tanks, though.)

I realize that I am rambling, but I just want to give proof of an amateur trying desparately to provide good conditions for her discus. To me, having these four little guys have been similar to an inexperienced young mother bringing a newborn home for the first time! (Lots of reading, questioning, and worrying) It's a huge learning experience!

I'll take it slow with increasing the tap water ratio. Thanks again for the information and for the concern.

Tyra

[Don_Lee]

The only reason to use some tap is to add some minerals/nutrients back in to the water, as long as you are adding some additive like RO right that works ok too AFAIK. Actually, it is probably safer to use the RO and additive mix than RO and tap, as one never knows totally what might be in the tap. But, the $ for additives can add up if tap will do, the important thing is to really understand and know ones water.

Don ;D

[Aditya]

Hello there!Im new here ,and what a way to start!!At present I am using 100%RO water.guess that has gotta change!There seem to be so many different bits of advice(most of them contradictory)that keeping discus is more an art of picking the right advice!! ;D

[DREW]

How much tapwater do you have to use to put in the r/o water mix to buffer it enough and get a accurate ph reading? 1% 5%. My city water has a ton of dissolved solids.

Drew

Hi Drew. I do 50% water changes, use 25% straight RO, and the other 25% tap water and use Aqua Plus water conditioner with the tap. I do not mix my RO and tap in the holding tank, but others may. I too was surprised with the pH and TDS, but my fish seem to still love it....

My water then reads as follows:
TDS (straight from the tap) = 289
TDS (in the fish tank mixed with RO) = 186
TDS (RO holding tank) = 12

pH (straight from the tap) = 7.8
pH (in the fish tank mixed with RO) = 7.2
pH (RO holding tank) = 6.2

I am by no menas a water expert, and do not understand it myself, as you can see from starting this thread. All I do know, is that my fish like it better since I have been adding conditioned tap water!!! :P

Weezy

[wildthing]

Personal Peeve......

I have been very troubled recently by some people (in the the buisness less than a year but) recommending to keep Discus in straight r/o water, some using sea salt to 'add back'.
This is very inappropriate.
Sea salt ( nor any NaCl type salt) does not contain the correct minerals to reconstitute r/o . Straight r/o ( if your unit is working right) will produce water with no minerals at all, which will soon enough lead to HitH from mineral deficiency & other stress related body dysfunctions, not to mention that the water is not buffered & will pH crash ( as described above).
While the Amazon is very pure water with few minerals in it it is important to know which ones are present & replace them. There are also many dissolved organics which don;t show up on meter tests.

R/O MUST be reconstituted ( minerals added back, either by adding mineral supplements or tap water) to prevent these problems & IMO anyone saying different is lacking long term experience & giving dangerous advice.
DW

[SnowCichlid]

Would this apply to tanks that get well water ... I do not live in a big city and therefore my source of water is chlorine and chemical free ... the only thing that needs to be treated occasionally is the pH level tha comes from it

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Snowcichlid:
I'm not sure I understand your question. . . are you asking about using your well water as is or whether you should use RO water?

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Interesting thread here............I hope DW reads this again and elaborates on his belief that sea salts or any salts are dangerous to suggest. I'm very curious to know why he says this and am eager to know his thoughts(Chloride ions, maybe?). Many people hit the nail on the head by stating that R/O must be reconstituted before being added to a tank, 'cause this could lead to all sorts of problems, such as pH crashes, HITH, etc. One must understand the full cycle of water/chemical reactions and it's buffering capacity to get an idea of what is needed to keep relative stability in a tank. When a water body is low or devoid of buffers to prevent the acids from overwhelming the system, the water is in a danger zone in regards to pH crashes. Think of it as a sheer cliff and the buffers are the stoppers from going over that cliff. The more acids produced/added to use up the buffers, the closer to the edge of the cliff the water gets. (This is why it is very dangerous to use inorganic acids to lower pH by anyone but the most experienced aquarists who understand chemistry to a certain extent). Once a water body is exhausted of it's buffering capacity, the acids overwhelm the system EXTREMELY quickly!......thus a pH crash! There is a mechanism in nature to counteract this natural occurrance(acid production) called Denitrification, but it can only do so much to prevent a crash.


Steve

[Greg]

David, What do you add to your RO water to bring back up the mineral content?

[Carol_Roberts]

You can use a product like RO right or you can make your own. The receipe is:
1 gram Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt),
1 gram Calcium Chloride (Sea Salt)
3 grams Calcium Sulfate (Gypsom)

[vendetta]

What's the reason of the pH crashing when use RO water?.. is it the lack of minerals?.. I'm starting with my firsts RO filter and I noted that pH grow from 6.5 to 7.5 slowly if I don't do water changes.

Regards.

[Second Hand Pat]

Low KH can led to a ph crash. KH is what buffers the ph.

[tolga]

Hi, what about wild heckels? I've been told to use straight ro which gives me water with 46 micro Siemens so there appears to be some minerals left in the product water. I've been using this straight on all my heckels. My tank is on a constant drip system. I have a bag of crushed shells which keeps the water around 1 KH. My Ph hasn't dropped to less than 6.4 in the last six months. I have been experimenting with seachem discus trace and I'm in the process of setting up a dosing pump to add the discus trace on a continuous basis. I'll be interested to know if there are any views on this. I'm not suggesting this is the best way but it has been pretty straightforward for me from day one and my juveniles have been growing in this water although the skittishness has been an issue from time to time but I'm not sure if its caused by straight RO or other factors. Thanks for bringing this tread up again.

[vendetta]

Low KH can led to a ph crash. KH is what buffers the ph.

I used in the past a combination of acid y regulator buffers by Seachem.. do you think I can use regulator buffer to grow the KH?.. or is it better and more easy with tap water?

[bs6749]

You can use baking soda to safely increase the KH of your water. Alternatively, if you find some rocks that contain limestone/calcium carbonate, you can put them into the tank and this will help raise your KH (buffering ability) but it will also tend to hold your pH around 8.0, which should be fine for your fish as I've kept discus, angelfish, rams, and other "soft water fishes" in these conditions and they thrived and spawned for me.