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jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 08:40 PM
One of the wild heckles I purchased last month is looking a little under the weather. Its eyes are not as bright as they were, he has turned rather dark and he seems to be just hanging around. I treated them for internals last week. The water peramiters are right on and they get a 40% w/c per day. He isn't really sick yet but I feel he is coming down with something. He is eating but not real aggresively. The attached pictures are very poor. I do not have a digital with a quick shutter but you can get an idea of what he looks like as compared to the color of the others. I feel that it could be flukes.

jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 08:42 PM
#2

BlueTurquoise
01-22-2003, 08:49 PM
Hey Jim, sorry to hear about your heckle... he looks like a nice fish otherwise...

Does he dart around sometimes or have any cuts or scrapes along his body? does he scratch himself (typical male thing to do)?

My fish were showing these exact same symptoms last week and I also want to know if it is the same thing or similar so i can treat them the same way...

BTW I used elevated temps and salt and they are recovering slowly

hmmm :-\

Chong

jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 09:02 PM
Hi Chong : He isn't moving around all that much. I have started to raise the temp and I have just added salt.

BlueTurquoise
01-22-2003, 09:08 PM
hmm mine didn't either but every so often they would get really spooked and start swimming erratically and banged themselves onto the tank and other equipment and ended up with a few marks and scratches. Maybe it isn't the same...

Good luck Jim

Chong

jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 09:18 PM
Chong : I was hopeing for some of your words of wisdom like : "FILLET HIM AND FRY HIM".........or something like that......... ;D

BlueTurquoise
01-22-2003, 09:24 PM
ROFL!!! Well I really did want to say that but i thought you were touchy on the subject ;D ;D ;D . Fillet and fry? pfft a nice beer batter, ranch chips with sour cream and sweet chilli suace, touch of lemon and perhaps some white wine! LMAO

sorry I couldn't resist! It's lunchtime here! ROFLMAO!!!

Chong

Francisco_Borrero
01-22-2003, 09:25 PM
You have shown that fish before and I really like him. Large, round, very dark rim all around, very dark bars. Beautiful! Location/origin ??
I don't know what is the problem, but a little salt and extra water changes for 2-3 days in a row is what I have done whenever I see a fish that "is nt quite himself but doesn't show a specific ailment". It has work for me everytime.
I add at least 3tbs/10gallons and continue adding the same over 3 days, so the concentration rises slightly. That has been all that it has taken. Of course, lots of observation at the same time.
The one thing that puzzles me is that you say that its eyes are not as bright. Heckels change eye color frequently, ad back and forth, but if I saw any cloudiness in one of my fish I would think water quality inmediately.
Just some thoughts. HTH, Francisco.

jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 09:40 PM
Francisco : Thanks for the note. You may be right about the eye color. I have noticed the other heckles eyes changing as well. This particular heckle came from the Maderia area. I also have two other smaller ones. The smallest is like a bumble bee. Constantly on the move. One thing that I have read is that heckles like to hide. The two smaller ones like to hide behind the filter and the larger one likes to shadow the largest purus. Very interesting fish.

Thanks for the help : Jim

yogi
01-22-2003, 10:38 PM
Jim you said you treated for internals last week, but you didn't mention what you used. If you changed enough water to think your tank is medication free. I would go with formalin at 1 ml per 10 gallons. That works out to 2 drops per gallon. Leave for eight hours and then do a water change. If it's flukes your fish will eat after the water change and not be as dark. Make sure the tank temp is no higher than 85. You can also use 2 tablspoons of salt per 10 gallons during the formalin treatment.

I have seven tanks of discus with six of the tanks containing wilds. A couple months ago I went away for a few days and had no one feed the fish. When I came home I did a water change and then fed the fish. In two of the tanks there was one fish in each tank that would not eat. I raised the temp to 93 and waited a few days and still no eating. I then used metro which also did not help. Then a fish in another tank started not eating. I said to myself this can't be happening. No heavy breathing or clamp gills.

Then in the new tank with the fish not eating I saw another fish rub it's gills on a filter tube. I hit this tank with formalin and the fish ate. I then lowered the other tanks to 85 over a couple of days and hit them with formalin. Now these fish started eating also.

They say adult discus are not bothered by flukes I say wrong. Or are wild caught more sensitive to flukes than domestics? good luck

jim_shedden
01-22-2003, 11:30 PM
Thanks for the note Yogi.
I have noticed that he is now tilted at about a 45 degree angle facing down. When I fed them 10 minutes ago he was the only one that did not eat. His gills appear to be working rather hard and he seems to be swimming around aimlessly.
I am not sure if I can get Formalin without mailordering it. I do have Clout however. I think I may wait until morning at which time I will observe them and then make a decision on treatment if its required.
Thanks for the help. Any other ideas please let me know.

Jim

01-23-2003, 02:14 AM
I agree,
One weak discus with flukes. :'(
Cary Gld!

wildthing
01-23-2003, 10:55 AM
I disagree.
Did you do any kind of prophylactic quarantine?
IMO an adult fish will not be so dramaticly affected by flukes.
IMO This is probably the begining of the manifestation of a bacterial problem, probably something gramm neg.
Using sterile swabs like your doctor uses to swab your throat with take swabs from the fish's side & gill area where it looks worst & get them analysed asap. ( U.Georgia) it costs $20 & takes about a week for bacterial cultures & sensitivity tests. Do this today & fed-ex the samples tonite so they can start tomorrow morning when they get them. Time is of the essence.
Meantime...add salt, at least 4 tablespoons per 10 gallons to help prevent secondary problems. ( I use 1 lb per 75 gallons which = about 5 tablespoons per 10) Raising the temp is not needed but crank the airation. The correct antibiotic is required soon, before this spreads to your other fish, for sure they are already exposed to it but just don;t show symptoms yet.
If you don;t get the tests done you won;t have a clue what is going on or how to efficiently treat.
BTW, that is not really a heckel, it is a heckel cross.

Francisco_Borrero
01-23-2003, 01:00 PM
I would say the recommendation of having a sample analyzed pronto is definitely worth following.
The part that sounds bad is that now the fish is headstanding, which may be related to bacterial infection (which ???).
I hope things start to look better.
By the way, if you wanted to use formalin and could't get it, one can use Formalite II (found at most LFS), which is largely formalin with some Malachite green. Formalin is better and good to have around.
Cheers, Francisco.

p.s. In my limited experience, heckels don't like to hide anymore than other fish, unless something is not right with them. I have 2 that hide, I know something is wrong, and I have not been able to fix it. They have been cleaned well, but something is there. My two most "boisterous" wild fish are heckels.

jim_shedden
01-23-2003, 01:29 PM
Unfortunately I do not have access to formalin or formalite 1. I just ordered some from Big Al's and it will arrive in a couple of days. I do have pp. Jimmy L recommended that I pp them for a couple of hours. I have some pp and the instructions state to use 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons.
NOTE : This morning when I check on him he was swimming around like nothing was wrong. His color was still a little dark but otherwise there was no headstanding. I just fed them 5 minutes ago and he was ravenous. I really don't want to medicate the tank without knowing what the problem is. I think for the time being I will do some significant w/c's, raise the temp and add some salt. I would however appreciate your response to the pp.

daninthesand
01-23-2003, 01:41 PM
Jim. 1 teaspoon for 5 gallons! That sounds like an awful lot! Does that mean 1 teaspoon of crystals? Yikes. Recheck that dosage...


Daniel

jim_shedden
01-23-2003, 01:42 PM
Dave : I caught the little pest and swabbed the gills and the sides. I am sending the samples down to Guelph University by UPS. When I looked inside the gills they were still nice and pink. When I get the results I will post them.

Thanks for the note: Jim

jim_shedden
01-23-2003, 01:45 PM
Daniel : The bottle says : Add 1 teaspoon to 5 gallons and then do a 50% w/c in 3 hours. I questioned it also, thats why I posted it. I don't trust everything I read........ ;D

Jim

daninthesand
01-23-2003, 01:59 PM
Dan: Make a stock solution. Approx. 2-4 Macdonald's coffee spoonfull of crystalized PP to 500ml of clean water. Amount is not important at this stage. Add about 1cc/gal until the color turn into reddish purple and stop. Depending on the Bio-load of your tank. Amount varies in every application. PP is an active oxidation agent when purple and become non-effective when turn to brown and yellow. In that case ,add more PP stock solution until reddish color reappear. Keep it for 4 hours and neutralize with Hydrogen peroxide. Water will turn crystal clear when done. Stock solution can be used for anything like cleaning tanks and even vegetable for supermarket. Application for the fish is the same procedure except you always have a loaded syringe with Hydrogen peroxide ready for action with the first sign of stress. Personally I never like the 3 min. dip. It stress the fish too much Wear gloves when cleaning tank otherwise your kids and spouse will stay away from you.JMHO
HTH

Jimmy.


Jim. Here is the quote from another post. Hopefully you can use this. I have used this recipe many times without any problems. Futhermore, you will find that the tank will turn a light purple initially and eventually will turn brownish. This may happen right away if the bioload in your tank is high. If it is low it may take a while for the purple to go brown. (Purple is active, brown is inactive). when it goes brown add more PP. Keep adding and watching over the next 3 to 4 hours. When the 4 hour period is over add hydrogen proxide (H2O2)to the tank,1-2 tablespoons at a time. You will see the brown water start to turn clear. Wait a few minutes between H2O2 additions because it can take a few minutes for it to work. Eventually you will have added enough H2O2 for the tank water to be crystal clear. No need to change water unless you see a lot of worms on the bottom of the tank (tiny, about 1/4 inch long) Then just siphon out the worms and add water to refill the tank. Or you can change the water if you like. BTW the PP may kill your biofilter. To avoid this you can turn off the air supply to the sponge or turn of the power to the filter. Just make sure you add another source of air to the tank during treatment since the process uses a lot of oxygen.

I think the 1 teaspoon dosage is quite high unless maybe for a 30 second dip, but I've never used a dip solution so I can't be sure...

HTH

Daniel

PS. The heckels I got from the LFS a while back took forever (it seemed) to settle into my tanks. They eventually did but it took a long time. I don't know if it was because they were wilds, or if it was because they were heckels, or simply because they were abused in the LFS. ???

01-23-2003, 02:09 PM
DW, What a sound piece of advice :thumbsup:

Jim, is the PP you have in solution? I have never seen it sold this way. Most of the time it comes in crystal form and a stock solution needs to be made. If all possible I would wait until the report from the lab comes back before treating.
PP can sometimes do more harm then good. JMO

Mike

daninthesand
01-23-2003, 02:18 PM
Hi Mike.

I was just wondering what harm in your experience has ben caused by the PP? I use PP a fair amount and would be curious as to the harmfull effects I need to look out for.

Thanks. :)

01-23-2003, 03:01 PM
For PP to have any affect on external parasites. You must literally remove/oxidize the slime coat on the fish. If not your just turning your water purple and killing your bio filter. (no big deal if your doing w/c) Planria and copods can survive 4hr treatments what's to say a gill fluke or other monogenea can't? Yes I agree it can provide temporary relief but it can really be very stressful to break down an already sick fish suffering from something totally different. Same goes for bacteria. You may rid the water column of bacteria but what will it take to rid the fish of bacteria on the skin? I'm not saying PP is not a affective tool just very over rated and over used. JMO :-\

Mike

daninthesand
01-23-2003, 03:06 PM
Thanks Mike.

I have noticed that the PP treatments do not eradicate worms permanently. But it does seem to be effective as a temporary reduction in worm populations since it clearly makes the worms fall to the bottom of the tank.

So I do wonder on its long term effectiveness. But it does seem to have its uses.

What are your uses for it?

Daniel

01-23-2003, 03:25 PM
Net dip, Clean Tanks, Water storage barrels. Sometime as a tank clean up (water column and filters), after fish recover from bacterial infection...

Have not used it for aggressive fish treatment in a long time.

Mike

jim_shedden
01-23-2003, 04:55 PM
MIke : This pp is in liquid form and manufactured by Aquatronics out of California.

Thanks for the info : Jim

01-23-2003, 05:16 PM
Jim,
Stay away from the med nuts LOL!

They Know not what they say :-*

Bacteria LOL! just cause jimmy had a problem does not mean jim will have the same.


No slime No cloudy eye no scraching No nothing! Come on guys You really think so? I though You guys new more then that the 45 Degree lean is a dead give away! IME


Not all fish are affectted the same way! some are weak others are strong. large Discus with flukes are fine untill moved keep that in mind.


keep us posted jim
Cary Gld!

P.s By the way most if not all BAC'S are fast acting! it does not take its time. it strikes and kills fast through a hatchery in days. Remember?

Barb Newell
01-24-2003, 01:01 AM
Hi Jim, sorry to hear about your problems with your new fish. I hope it works out for you and I hope Guelph can give you some answers. If you need some formalin, I have some 37% formaldehyde, maybe I could drop it off at your inlaws or mail it? Let me know.

Barb :)

jim_shedden
01-24-2003, 08:59 AM
Hi Barb : Thanks for the note. I am going to go over to my local drug dealer........... ;D and see if he cn get it for me first. If I have a problem I will drop you a line.

Thanks for the help : Jim

jim
01-26-2003, 10:57 AM
You have to be careful with PP. If you leave it too long or the treatment is too strong, it will start to oxidize the gills, fins etc. that is why you need to H2O2 standing by. as soon as you see stress, neutralize the PP.

safety first.

neo.

jim_shedden
01-26-2003, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the note Neo.Its appreciated.

Jim

jim_shedden
01-26-2003, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the note Neo.Its appreciated.

Jim

jim_shedden
01-26-2003, 05:36 PM
I thought that I would give you an update on the ill-feeling heckle I have. Because of the good information I received I decided to increase the heat and add salt and watch closely until I could make a sound diagnosis on what was bothering this guy. I kept the heat and the salt going for 4 days and he bounced right back and has been eating ravenously. His color has also come back even stronger. I have had these wilds for only a month and I had expected a bit of assimilation time and maybe that was what he was going through. I am going to continue to observe him closely and watch for any tell tale sighns of critters. Check the before and after picture of him and you will see quite a change.

Thanks for the help : Jim