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BryanN
01-25-2003, 02:44 AM
I am new to discus keeping and have been doing research on different types of discus. I find that the wild strains are really nice and wanted to know where you guys would recommend me buying them.

Thanks in advance,

Bryan Nguyen

Wolf
01-25-2003, 02:51 AM
Check out this thread.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=6463

Oliver seems to have some of the best Wilds around. I'm not sure how to contact him but I'm sure you can find out if you dig around a little. Last I heard, he was back in the rainforest getting another batch. Be sure you are well prepared and read read read if you are new to discus.

Lauro Baldini
01-25-2003, 09:52 AM
Bryan, don't buy wild discus. Let me tell you some interesting facts:

1) Wild discus are captured for export. In that process, more than 60% of the fishes die;
2) Brazilian government is not capable - as for now, due to our economical problems - to keep and eye on those exportations and there are areas where we are running out of discus;
3) Wild discus are very difficult to maintain: they usually eat only live food and water conditions must be compatible with the water of their original environment;
4) They live in areas with poor illumination, very clean, black, acid and soft water and no plants or rocks: a well-planted aquarium is a strange environment to them.
5) Wild discus are used to live in large areas, in shoals. Even a big aquarium with 5 or some more individuals is a stress to them.

I can list more and more items to make you think about having wild discus. If those above aren't enough to convince you, you should know that any discus is more beautiful than the wild discus.

Excuse my English.

Greetings from Brazil.

Lauro.

01-25-2003, 11:12 AM
Well Said! Lauro. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dennis_Hardenburge
01-25-2003, 10:06 PM
Lauro
First I would like to thank you for posting.
I have no idea what the mortality during capture or transporting is. Or if there is any damage to the envirement to capture them.
But I do have to disagree with you on the other pionts you mentioned.
Keeping wild discus healthy in an aquarium is no more different or difficult than domestic stocks. You do need to provide the proper water for them. And all will discus don't come from dark water.
My wilds eat every thing my domestic fish do, including flake food.
I can't feel they are stressed as they come to the front of the aquarium to greet me, and if my hand is put in the water they come over to play with it.
And I certainly feel they are every bit as beautiful as any domestic bred fish and more so than a lot of them.
I am not trying to start a big debate here but just giving my opinion.
Dennis

fishfarm
01-25-2003, 11:28 PM
I have to agree with Dennis, I have no trouble keeping and feeding newly aquired imports I get directly from Peru and Columbia, Within days they eat everything I offer to them and come to the front of the tank when they see me coming. Wilds are actually preferred by many hobbyist. I also think wilds are an importent part of any breeding program to bring in new genetic material and improve the vigor of domestic strains.
I don't think most people realize that a large percentage of all species of tropical fish for sale are wild caught, yes some perish from collecting, but every legitimate collector tries to prevent this as this is his livelyhood. Having collected fish myself I do not believe the loses are as great as you alluded to.
Oliver's web site is www.belowwater.com Check it out!

Francisco_Borrero
01-26-2003, 12:01 AM
I also have to agree with Dennis and Fishfarm.

Regarding Lauro's first point, which is inded a very valid concern, I also think there are other things to consider. Wild fish collection and collectors don't quite do it like it was 20 or 30 years ago. This is true of a number of countries in South America. Collectors are paid for their fish, and are paid better if the fish are in good shape. Further, holdng facilities and transportation have improved dramatically. Yes, deaths occur, and I am sure do so in large numbers, but the fish business is one that gives employment and a need to protect the fish/habitats to a lot of people who would otherwise be chopping trees and attempting (unsucessfully) to clear cut the forest to harvest crops.
JMO. Cheers, Francisco.

roger
01-26-2003, 12:06 AM
Hello All,

There are many places to get wild discus from, and the people bringing them in are doing some from several locations, not just brasil.

Two people come to mind for wild discus and both of them I believe import, Oliver at http://www.belowwater.com and Alberto at http://www.aquatechnics.net .

Ive never seen any of Olivers fish for myself, he is in Canada and Im in Florida. I have been to Albertos and picked up a few from him, I dont think you can go wrong with either one of these guys.

There are 2 schools of thought on wild discus, one saying make your water match whats in the wild and the other is just use what domestic fish will take.

If your just starting with discus I would recommend getting some domestic discus that have the same color scheme as wilds. The domestics should be easier to find and cheaper. Give yourself some time to get use to caring for the fish before you spend money bringing in wilds before your familiar with the fish. That is all of course IMO.

Peace,
Roger

BryanN
01-26-2003, 04:41 AM
Thanks for all the infornmation. I will certainly make a second thought before buying any wild discus.

Bryan

gump
01-26-2003, 07:07 AM
I'm going out on a limb here, but it is my impression that more discus are caught for food than exported!??
Francisco.. They have been succesful in clearcutting, just unsuccesful in harvesting crops!! Go figure with their soils & climate!!
Pierre

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 07:45 AM
Dear Friends:

Thank you for you considerations on my first point. Regarding wild discus, the only scientific project that I know is Project "Piaba", from Amazon University. I'm not sure if there are any other projects. Maybe so, as I'm not up-to-date in that particular area. Anyway, I'll transcript some parts of a report from Project Piaba (the whole report can be seen in http://www.angelfire.com/pq/piaba/Breifing2.DOC.

"Problems regarding Ornamental Fishes Industry in Amazon:

Preoccupations on live fish mortality rate and treatment methods during transportation in commercial chains. Environmental organizations are pressuring European Union to prohibit the live animal commerce entirely (including ornamental fishes); airline companies like KLM and Lufthansa already refuses to transport live fish.

(...)

As for Cardinal Tetra, there is a possible break of the Biodiversity Convention, because nor the Czechs or the North-Americans respects some points of the conventions, which states sharing of profit from use of genetic resources."

In other part of the document they say something similar to what Francisco Borrero have said. But, then again, I'm not sure if there is a strict control on wild discus management and selling.

As for the water treatment, it is certain that wild discus can survive even if the water conditions are extremely different from their original habitat. But we don't know yet what it causes to the fish in terms of health, biology or life expectancy.

I also agree with FishFarm, wild discus are important to bring in new genetic material to domestic strains, but that can be done without selling wild discus to hobbyists.

Well, I'm sure we are all right in our opinions, and I myself have wild discus, but the real question is: can Amazon provide fishes for our hobby without any harm to the environment? I think nobody can answer that yet. That's why I'm for a strict control on wild discus selling.

Best regards,

Lauro.

Ralph
01-26-2003, 10:18 AM
Bom Dia Lauro,
Don't apologize for your English, it's great.

Nobody wants to see discus disappear from the wild. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the actual situation down there to judge how much of a problem that is. And the info I have seen comes from people with an agenda, a point to make, and for that reason, it is questionable info.
I've heard of Projeto Piaba but it is still in it's planning stages for the most part. Some sort of management program is definately needed though.
Personnally I would like to see more breeders work with wilds, for some reason though, they always cross them. I don't know of many breeders producing pure wild strains, at least commercially, at this point.

It's great to hear from a Brasileiro though.
Thanks, Ralph

fishfarm
01-26-2003, 10:20 AM
Hi, Lufthansa transports live fish to me all the time. :) I got a shipment of discus carried by them two weeks ago.

Ralph
01-26-2003, 10:31 AM
Pierre,
Clearcutting is the worst, the cuts are used for crops and grazing but only can maintain it for a few years. Contrary to what you might think, rainforest soils are extremely low in nutrients. The lush forest that you see exists because the plants are specifically adapted to that environment (it utilizes a nutrient recycling system, that disapppears when it is clearcut).
Unfortuanately it is a disaster in the making (and I'm not pointing my finger at Brasil, we all have our own disasters going on). Us humans seem to have a problem with long term thinking, economics always opt out for the short term profit.

aloha_discus
01-26-2003, 11:15 AM
Aloha Everyone, I agree with many opinions that i have read above. I to have 13 wilds from heckels to greens. I have not paid a dime for them. they fortunately were given to me by a couple of lfs. They were to the point of dying. I offered to pay for them, but they said if I could return them to health I could have them. I got 17 to start and 13 have survived. They are fat and eager to greet me when I enter the room. They have been with me for 4 months now and a pair of blues have been with me for 7 months. I am waiting for them to pair off then the fun will begin.

Mahalo for listening, Ike ;D

Francisco_Borrero
01-26-2003, 11:51 AM
Congratulations Ike. I hae done similar things with the wilds I have (19) and they are looking mighty nice, after very humble beginnings at LFS's. Please share some pictures if you can.

Pierre. Thank you for highlihting my point, which I worded poorly. Yes, the "colonos" are very successful at clear cutting, it is the crops what doesn't seem to prosper, at times even in the first year. But organized, machine-driven clear cutting is the worst, when a bulldzer and a few trucks destroy large tracts in hours. And then, we have gold-mining, allegedly the single most destructive practice of all, affecting inmediately and for the long term, both land and waterways. Sad. Much of the same is happening in my country, but also in most of the New World Tropics (Central and South America), as well as the Old World Tropics (Africa and Asia). A sad state of affairs. Wild discus collecting is nothing compared to those.
JMThoughts. Cheers, Francisco.

yogi
01-26-2003, 11:56 AM
Here is a counter article to Lauro's first post. http://www.peter.unmack.net/acn/as/4/vol4no3.html# The article you want to read is tiltled #4. Views from OFI & OFI (UK) Lauro's post also led me to think of a second question. How many discus are killed by breeders, oh sorry I ment culled. Each week?, each month? or each year? Just so you can say this breeder sells only round discus.

gump
01-26-2003, 12:03 PM
Ralph, My point exactly!!!
They started clearcutting there as " a way to open up land for agriculture". Truth be known it is the forest companies that see inexpensive fibre. The soils will only produce one marginal crop at best and very poor for grazing. I'm for proper forestry as it is a renewable resource, but clearcutting that type of forest is the WRONG silviculture tool to be using. Back to discus... This type of cutting also has DRASTIC hydrological effects on the watershed!! What is this doing to the water parameters( flow rates, PH, Temp etc..) Just my 2 cents.
Pierre

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 12:33 PM
Boa tarde, Ralph!

Thanks for the answer to my posts and thanks for the answer to Pierre regarding rainforest soil. You seem to know a lot - I'll guess that you are a biologist...

The counter article posted by Yogi has the same problems of my argumentation: lack of proper, long and deep study. Project Piaba, as Ralph has said, is at its initial stages.

The only thing I defend here is that it would be better to everyone if wild discus were sold by responsible breeders, who would bred them in captivity from a very small number of original individuals from the wild.

Anyway, I see a good initiative from Project Piaba when they say riverine communities should be trained to extract and keep wild discus with a few harms for the environment and a very low rate of fish loss. As many of you pointed, they have to work.

Cheers,

Lauro.

01-26-2003, 01:04 PM
Alot of good points made.....alot of good questions....Unfortunately, no good answers to any of them.
Without question, we as hobbiests/breeders need to be aware of what harm, if any...wild discus collection does to native populations AND the environment they are collected in. One thing I DONT agree with is pointing the finger at other industries/practices....eg. clearcutting, goldmining etc....and saying...they do the "most" harm....so the harm(however minimal) we do is "ok". Thats like kicking someone when they're down and saying its ok because the first guy hit him alot harder than "I" did.

Everyone of us....including those who only own "domestic" discus(they're all bred from wild stock) should take in interest and ask questions about whats going on in the Amazon watershed....IS wild discus collection a sustainable resource in its current capacity?? I honestly have no idea!
It would be great to get someone involved in this conversation that has collection experience. Oliver?? He seems like a pretty straight shooter....and could shed some light on some of these questions.
One thing that keeps coming to mind....these new "wild reds" that are surfacing via Oliver at below water...if im not mistaken, I read that the current adult population of this color type is approxamately 70 fish(someone correct me if thats wrong) in the wild.....that seems like a pretty low number to support much collection and keep the population viable.....maybe possible with extremely limited collection?? Again....I dont know.
Just some more stuff to think about.....Im just rambling now ;D

Tony

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 01:48 PM
Tony_S,

Very good points!

"IS wild discus collection a sustainable resource in its current capacity? I honestly have no idea!"

Neither do I. As Ralph has said, info we get comes from people with an agenda, a point to make. I think what we need to consider is:

a) People living in wild discus area have to live;
b) Wild discus selling has to be controlled and profits from genetic improvements has to be shared with Brazil or with countries where the fishes came from - this is a very important point;
c) Brazilian government has to put a lot more money on scientific researches in Amazon;
d) Amazon has to be controlled as for clearcutting, goldmining, or any other practice that harms the environment.

Sincerely, I don't think we Brazilians can do that in short-term.

Cheers,

Lauro.

Ralph
01-26-2003, 02:25 PM
Tony, I'm not sure how you can look at pulling a percentage of fish out of a river and the practice of clearcutting and say that they are the same. Clearcutting does cause more damage, much more. And like Pierre said, it also has negative affects on the fish by increasing erosion (thus changing the water environment) and the runoff from cattle grazing effects (higher nitrogen compounds) and farming (fertilizer and pesticide runoff). And rainforest doesn't grow back, it's not like pine forest. It eventually ends up as dry shrub country.
And I am not trying to justify discus collecting by finding a worse practice. It's like Lauro said, we need to put a good management system in place for fish collecting to ensure that overcollecting doesn't occur. And breeding wilds may be part of the answer to reducing strains on local fish populations. (And I think there is money to be made with this too.)

A big problem is the lack of reliable info (and the turbidity of much of the Amazon water makes this harder and makes an estimate such as 70 of a certain strain virtually impossible). Collectors will have one view, environmentalists another, and clearcutters a third. And they each have their own numbers to back this up. That is why Projeto Piaba is so important, because they are presently putting together less biased numbers so they can come up with a true picture and then make decisions based on those numbers. They are working with cardinal tetras right now and the numbers are surprising.

Don_Lee
01-26-2003, 02:54 PM
I read a post by Karen Randall recently on the APD list regarding this topic. Her contention was that NOT collecting fish from the Amazon areas would harm the people and the area more by eliminating the resources that come into the country by collecting the fish. The APD list digest can be found on actwin.com if anyone wants to search for this post and others comments around the same topic.

Don ;D

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 04:12 PM
In general terms, I do agree with Ralph that clearcutting or goldmining causes much more damage to the rainforest than collecting fishes without proper management. If those activities continue to occur without regulation or prohibition, wild discus may disappear even if we don't collect a single one of them from the rivers (the reasons why that could happen are well explained in Ralph's post).

As for Karen Randall points, I don't think they are valid. In Brazil we have an expression that in English would be something like "That's bad, but that's good". We use it when the situation is ugly, but could get worse, so... That's bad, but that's good: selling guns is bad, but it's a regulated commerce, which is good; killing is bad, but he was an outlaw, so it was good; I'm poor, but I don't starve... And so on.

According to Project Piaba data, 3,000,000 dollars is the annual income from fish collecting in Amazon area. Something like 10,000 workers are involved (directly or indirectly) in that activity. I'm not good at mathematics, but I think that gives every worker 300 dollars a year. Not much...

How much these fishes generate when they leave Brazil or other South American countries? That's the point...

Best regards,

Lauro.

Ralph
01-26-2003, 05:25 PM
Poor Bryan, he just wanted to know where to buy a fish. Where is a moderator when you need one? Well, as long as we've gone this far....
Lauro, I'm not familiar with the issue of profits from genetic improvements, what is that about?
Tambem, que es a frase que usa? E donde mora voce?
Why can't computers type accent marks, anybody know?

Project Piaba, as far as I know, is looking at supplying the demands of the aquarium trade, maintaining sustainable numbers of fish in the wild, getting more of the profits to the locals, and by this, offer an financial alternative to cutting and mining. It's a big order though and I hope they succeed.

roclement
01-26-2003, 05:34 PM
Lauro, bem vindo ao painel de discussoes!

Welcome my fellow Brasileiro! Good to see more of us here! I ahve to agree with all of you who have posted, in one way or another, and I think it takes someone from the same background to understand the expression of it's bad but it could get worse...

My oppinion is this, sure that extracting dicus from it's natural habitat is bad, fot the fish and for the habitat...sure it has to be regulated, resources protected and people held accountable! We all agree with that...

Having said that...what is more important to an underdeveloped region...? Is it the imediate well being of the natural resources, or putting food in the table?

The way I see it, the only analogy I can see to this situation is the drug trade in general...stay with me...it is all a matter of suply and demand, as long as someone is willing to purchase the product, someone will be willing to sell it...

I know that this is a simplystic view, but it is a very true one. Our country has far more immediate challenges to face than controling the sale of harvested fish, or any other form of wild life for that matter, various ONG's, from all over the world, have been trying to act in terms of protecting our wildlife, one of the last available for that matter.

The fatc remains that we are a bunch of aquarists, in a very well established economy, who are the first to buy and encourage the market that we are attempting to regulate! Does anyone else see any hypocrasy here?!

Once again...this is just my oppinion...I too have some wild Discus at home...for me...if my choice was between saving the fish or feeding my family...there would be no choice at all...

Rodrigo

01-26-2003, 06:04 PM
Ralph

Sorry...I didnt get my point accross very well I guess. I didnt mean to imply that clearcutting and discus collecting cause the SAME damage.
I agree with you and the others 100%....mining and clearcutting ARE the number one threats to the discus and its habitat, without a doubt.
My point was simple....if indeed the wild discus population is now...or will in the future, be in danger....its kind of tough for us to point fingers when we have a tank full of wilds at home. We would also share the blame.....however small.

As for the wild discus (Curipera reds) I was refering to...its my understanding that this is a "color type" not a "strain" and the population is extremely isolated. So much so, that the fish all share the same characteristics...right down to the same blue ring around the eye(maybe it is a strain...who knows?) Im no expert....but I would think with a population this isolated...it WOULD be possible to keep some type of population count on them....even if it was a rough number. I cant find the post in question though....so its hearsay for now.

As for Karen Randall's claim that NOT collecting would do more harm than good....that would be fully dependant upon whether or not the tropical fish collecting industry is self sustaining....if its not,and the fish dissapear....then what?

Tony

Ps....for the record...no,Im not a tree hugger....and yes, I do own wild discus. ;)

wildthing
01-26-2003, 06:04 PM
Fishing only needs to be controlled to keep it a sustainable renewable resource.
Food fish are controlled in Brazil, arapaimas & rays etc. Discus are not food fish, if you ever see that photo of an indian eating one you gotta know it was a joke on 'whitey'...Discus do NOT taste good & are all bone & are hard to catch compared to many other larger great tasting fish.
It is absolutely impossible to estimate the number of Discus there are in the Amazon. What are taken represent a minimal fraction of a percent. A hydro project ,on the Xingu I think, has been found to be 'infested' with discus where there previously were none. In other words, given habitat, they are extremely succesful.
It is good to care.
IMO the only threat to any Amazon species, be it fish or bird or plant or mammal, is loss of habitat through direct destruction & pollution from other areas.
If there wasn't a tropical fish industry then the fishermen wouldn't even get that $300 per year & no interest group at all would give a sh*t about the river & as was said, it is bad, but it could be far worse, & without TF it would be far worse.
btw, Discus are less than 1% of Brazilian tropical fish exports.
It would be nice to be able to say we are either part of the solution or part of the problem, but it is not so simple, we are part of both.

:(

DW

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 06:40 PM
Ralph, Bryan now has some very good opinions on wild discus selling and buying, and if he still wants to have them, now he can do that with a clean conscience and well informed. :)

Below is a fragment of the Convention on Biodiversity (signed during ECO-92):

"The objectives of this Convention, to be pursued in accordance with its relevant provisions, are the conservation of biological diversity, the sustainable use of its components and the fair and equitable sharing of the benefits arising out of the utilization of genetic resources, including by appropriate access to genetic resources and by appropriate transfer of relevant technologies, taking into account all rights over those resources and to technologies, and by appropriate funding."

The article above applies on several cases, like transgenic food, etc. In our case, an example is a breeder who can make a new strain of discus from wild strains. Possibly that will make the prize of the fish to increase dramatically, but without proper transference of technology or profits to the country where the specie is native.

There are other articles regarding cases alike, but let's not extend the discussion.

Finally, Ralph, I live in Guaxupé, State of Minas Gerais, Brazil. And you won't be able to put accents on your computer unless you configure your keyboard properly... :-\

The phrase you referred to is "Tá ruim, mas tá bom" (That's bad, but that's good).

Now, let me thank my fellow brasileiro Rodrigo for the warm welcome! ;D

As for your view of the matter, I agree that your opinion is simplistic and true, and that our country has a lot of more urgent and important matters, but in this forum I cannot discuss other issues! I stick to the fish... ;)

Cheers!

Lauro.

P.S.: I'm not a tree hugger either! ;D

01-26-2003, 06:52 PM
Lauro,
Keep Up the good Work! :thumbsup:

jim_shedden
01-26-2003, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the insight Lauro................great thread

Jim

Ralph
01-26-2003, 07:08 PM
This has been a great discussion, it's really the amazing aspect of the internet that an international discussion can spontaneously take place like this. And David, you are very correct that this is a complex subject, Project Piaba has been going on for twelve years now I think and they are still gathering information. We obviously aren't going to solve the problem this afternoon, but sharing information and opinions like this can only help.
Tony, we're fine, Ive never heard of an isolated color type. It's possible though. There are many oxbows in the area, generally they join during the rainy season but an isolated group that developed their own look is possible.
Lauro, eu morei em Belo para dois anos, na Avenida Espirito Santo.

Thanks everybody!

jim_shedden
01-26-2003, 07:11 PM
This is the type of thread that should continue as new info developes.
I think that this should concern everyone in the hobby because without the wilds we would not have those exotic domestics. Lets keep it going.

Jim

roclement
01-26-2003, 07:23 PM
cheers to all! I agree that this is a great thread, and to think it all started with a simple question on wild discus...the internet is great! Thanks all for sharing their oppinions, this is what makes this a great forum! :)

To my friend from Brasil...what strains do you have? When I left Brasil 7 years ago, mostly were wild fish with very few cross-breads, very expensive at that! Has it become more common place to find "exotic" discus down there...I was impressed with the diversity of strains when I got here...so many choices...so few tanks...!

Rodrigo

01-26-2003, 09:05 PM
Ralph

I found the thread I was refering to
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=5508

It was JimmyL who states the small population....I assume(dangerous, I know) It was Oliver, the collector...who supplied him with this info.

These are VERY beautiful fish....it would be a shame if over collection caused these fish to dissapear from the wild.
Am I saying they shouldnt be collected......or that people shouldnt buy them??......No...definately not.....Just expressing a concern for how fragile some populations could be.
On the other hand....one could argue that mining or clearcutting could wipe out a population like this in a day....so why not collect them and try to preserve the unique color type.

Tony

Ps....one thing Ive learned so far, is that there are ALOT more questions than I had originally thought about....VERY deeeep issues here. :-"
"64336

Lauro Baldini
01-26-2003, 09:17 PM
Dear Friends:

Good discussion, uh? I hope new information can be found on all those issues. Without Internet a simple question like "where to buy wild discus?" would never turn into this...

Just to emphasize that I'm not pointing fingers to any country, let me tell you that Brazil is one of the countries that did not implement most of Convention on Biodiversity's regulations.

Ralph, what did you do here in Brazil? I don't know if you are aware, but Belo Horizonte is having some serious problems with floods. It's raining a lot here in Minas Gerais. Last year we had so little rain that it was needed to ration the water, now this... >:(

Note to everybody: Belo Horizonte, capital of my state, means Beautiful Horizon. Indeed... 8)

Rodrigo, I only have a couple of wild discus in a 200 liters tank. All my others aquariums have angelfishes. By the way, at least here in Brazil, angelfishes are no longer captured, there is enough of them being breed in captivity. And now we have a good diversity of discus strains, but the prizes are to high for most hobbyists. A wild discus costs about $10, a cross-bread can be as high as $50 or much more. That's too much!!! That's why discus commerce in Brazil is centered in exportation. Ecoanimal http://www.ecoanimal.com.br seems to have a good variety of strains, although I've never bought from them because of the damn prizes!

Abraços,

Lauro.

roclement
01-26-2003, 10:48 PM
meu amigo, they do have nice strains, and those are pictures from the fish, some are very nice! :)

price wise you are correct, very expensive, they are selling one for over R$ 1000!!!! That is around U$ 300!!! expensive even by our standards here in the US! For Brasil's economic standards...unbelivable!

the web site is very nice, very professional, seems like we come a long way!

I will be visiting Brasil very soon, if you'd like, I can bring you a couple of fish from here, it would be my pleasure if someone can help me in the legal aspects of the whole thing...it would be a gift from me, and a a way to return some beauty from these great fish to their original country! a comeback of sorts! ;D ;D

only thing is that you would have to drive to Sao Paulo to pick them up, I will have limited transaportation in Brasil.

maybe one of the breeders would be interested in a good will tour of sorts by donating some fish for the trip back to the motherland! :) :)
just an idea...any more!?

keep the thread going! very good exchange so far!

seu amigo, Rodrigo

Dennis_Hardenburge
01-27-2003, 01:52 AM
I believe Jimmy L ment that 70 of the curipera were caught by the fishermen, I doubt any one knows the actual population.
Dennis

wildthing
01-27-2003, 09:01 AM
There are no restrictions on angels caught in Brazil & they still export loads of them. The only thing governing that is the season.

brewmaster15
01-27-2003, 10:27 AM
Thank you everyone for the sharing of different views here in a friendly fashion. :)

I think it safe to say that everyone who loves this beautiful fish, needs to be aware of and involved in what the state of their habitat is . My personal feelings are natural resources can be used in sustainable fashions, but in order for that to happen, much research needs to be done on each of those resources.

Sad to say, that is not usually done, until after a species is in decline.Humanity works on hind sight, forsight is an under developed tool with us. Often the collection of the species isn't what causes the decline though, but instead it is the loss of habitat, food sources, or alien species introductions that ultimately cause the decline.

So here is the delima... how do you tell a people that they can't clear a forest to make room for food crops? or to sell the timber to feed their family. Especially when the richer countries of the world, drive that market? Tough call, hopefully The amazon will never get to the point that the USA was at a short time ago. Not many here probably know (except pierre and a few others) but at one point in the usa's history over 90% of the country was deforested for crops and const supplies. We have only a fraction of what is termed old growth forests left, and even those are under tremendous pressure from the logging industry because of the value in these huge old trees. What is going on in the tropics has happened here. The impact was significant here, but in the tropics with diversity so high, and the web so fragile., any change to the ecology can wipe thousands of species in a blink of an eye.

Know your world. Be aware of what goes on it , and make good consumer choices as a result of that knowledge. What everyone does here, effects everywhere else.

thanks again,
-al

Ps.. Lauro, I would love any links or sources of information you may have come across on groups in Brazil studying discus? universities? Government research?more studies on ecological impacts of various species. Stats on numbers of exporters etc. Please email me any time... brewmaster15@att.net

Thanks!

01-27-2003, 10:56 AM
Lauro: Very interesting thred. I have to add that since Oliver is leading the group trying to save the rain forest in the Amazon. He has introduced hobbyist around the world about the truth of Amazon rain forest. His interest is not only collecting discus and other fish, he's also studying varies of medicinal plants and animals like poisonus frogs. Since Dennis and I have posted our wild discus from the Amazon. More people are interested in the Mysterious forest and quest of knowledge from its magic. I truely believe it will have some benificial effect to make people think more about saving the forest and preserve the way it is. I have quite a few e-mail asking me how to join Oliver to catch their own discus. it will certainly help their travel industry to improve the local economy. Discus may be the one species that save the rain forest. You never know.
Jimmy.

Lauro Baldini
01-27-2003, 12:22 PM
Al, your fourth paragraph enlightened me. I didn't know most of what you have said. 90% of devastation... What did we loose that will never return? Animals, fishes, plants, a good part of them undiscovered and lost forever... Sad thing that in Brazil we are going the same path.

I have collected some links to you. Unfortunately, most of my links are in Portuguese, so I'm giving you just the ones that is in English:

http://www.biodiv.org/
Lot's of good information about the Convention on Biodiversity.

http://www.angelfire.com/pq/piaba/
Project Piaba documents and links.

http://www.ornamental-fish-int.org/brazillist.htm
Draft list of Brazilian freshwater fishes for the hobby: a proposal to IBAMA

Wildthing, the only angelfish that are hard to buy here in Brazil is Pterophyllum altum. Even when you found one, the prizes are extremely high. Last week I found some for sale at $50 each. Bred angelfishes costs at maximum $3. As I told you, the commerce of ornamental fishes is centered in exportation.

Jimmy, I'm sure Oliver is a good person and that is a responsible researcher, but we have had a lot of trouble here with people that do research on medicinal plants and other things and then patent drugs without giving Brazil a single buck. Some drugs that we Brazilians import are made from native plants! A few years ago some researches (from Britain, I guess) collected blood from Indians to make DNA studies without even letting them know what it was all about... I'm sure it's not Oliver's case, but some regulation on those issues has to be done urgently.

Abraços,

Lauro.

01-27-2003, 12:57 PM
Sometimes it's hard to pass the concept of DNA to native people. Some discus collectors had trouble explaining to the local goverment official in remote area about keeping their fish in the glass container with water. Trying to explain a heater to someone with no electricity for their daily living is almost impossible.

Tad
01-27-2003, 01:49 PM
The issue at hand is to buy or not to buy Wild fish especially discus. Obviously wilds of any type; being it mammal, fish, avian, plants etc have been collected by society for the ages just look at our national zoos for example...no doubt the removal of such species have had some impact upon the environment to which they came and that impact is due to over harvesting like what has happened to our native forest and in the whaling industry. We always have to look at the source and why such practices will continue...Demand by the public, needs of a society or culture to enrich their lives economically or pleasure, and for the preservation of the species believe it or not. If we were to look at the commercial fishing industry like salmon we would see the biggest proponents of conservation is the commercial fishermen themselves.... Philosophically society will always take the easiest route of resistance just like water in a river or stream. The problems that arise where environmental damage occurs are when regulation favors only economic gain and not the well being of what is being harvested. Having that said; I am a proponent of collecting wild discus as I believe that at this time until the govts in those areas provide an economic culture that provides their population with jobs and economic growth the only way those populations can survive is to harvest. Sure you can argue that if We did not collect wilds that the practice would stop, but for that practice to stop it will take a total approach change by their Government and again I reiterate society will take the easiest route of resistance...Sure I believe in a prudent approach to protect all of our natural resources and not to impact their availability for future generations but that takes intellectual governing with science and politicians working hand in hand. I believe there are Collectors like Oliver who have taken steps to provide us with these wonderful fish; he has an understanding of the economic and environmental impacts etc.not only for a hobby but for knowledge in itself and the survival of the species.... As with anything that ever comes to the point of being critical for the survival of the species it is the people who have developed love and understanding for the species that will be and have been at the forefront of protection.

JMO,
Tad

Lauro Baldini
01-27-2003, 03:06 PM
JimmyL, that's not an excuse. When you come to a foreign country to do research, you have to tell that country's government what you intend to do, for how long and for what. You don't have to explain that to the people that lives in the area, you have to explain it to the government. And I'm sure government officials can understand any concept of biology, because we are one of the top countries in biology research.

As for Tad's message, I agree with everything, but I thing we are loosing the point. The "piabeiros"(people that catch the wild discus, including risking their lives) live in extremely poor conditions. How much the cross-bread discus generate in $ in the world economy? How much of that is shared with Brazil or other South American countries? Did you know that almost every cross-bread discus in Brazil is imported? Something is wrong in that picture, isn't it?

Abraços,

Lauro.

Lauro Baldini
01-28-2003, 12:30 PM
Dear Friends, a friend of mine has given me an extraordinary link:

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/abertura.html

It's a research expedition done by "O Estado de São Paulo", a traditional Brazilian newspaper, and some other organizations, among 1990 and 1995. The site is in Portuguese, so not many of you will be able to enjoy a beautiful work. I've translated some parts of the site for you. Unfortunately, I don't have the time (it's a BIG site) or the expertise (lot's of technical terms) to translate the entire site. And, off course, it's a simplified translation - only some conclusions. Sorry. Enjoy.

"The untouched and entirely protected of human occupation Amazon is getting closer and closer to a myth, which is more and more far from reality as population and demand for food, natural resources e economic alternatives of surviving grow."

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/images/am_legal.jpg

"The Amazon rainforest occupies and area of 50% of Latin America, among 9 countries. Its 6,5 million square kilometers, covered by the largest rainforest of the world, are an invaluable patrimony. In Brazil, tree formations occupy 3,5 millions Km² and are still preserved in more than 90%."

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a3.jpg
Barcelos City, founded in 1775 by Portugueses. Its area is bigger than Portugal.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a2_9.jpg
In Demene River, floods prevent big boats from going up the river for four or five months every year.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a5a.jpg
Wood industries in Barcelos City. They process between 20 and 40 cubic meters per week.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a0429.jpg
The prohibition of hunting is ignored. But the meat is not a prize for sportive hunters, it's a supplemental food for riverine populations.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a240.jpg
http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/015.jpg
http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a246.jpg
http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a240.jpg
http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a1.jpg

Only in the United States there are 24 millions aquarium hobbyists, says Daniel Rejman, president of Ornamental Fishes Exporters from Amazon. However, there was a retraction in Brazil since the Asians entered the market.

Most exported fishes:
Angelfish (Pterophyllum scalare)
Tetra Cardinal (Paracheirodon axelrodi)
Rosacéu (Hyphessobrycon sp)
Lápis (Nannostomus sp)

Countries like Germany, Holland, Singapore and Hong Kong genetically modify Amazon fishes to get new strains. It's a very big market, which does not develop in Brazil due to poor investment. Besides, habitats have been destroyed and there is overcollecting, says Fábio Bonfá, ornamental fish expert. In some cases, we depend on foreign breeders to prevent extinction of some species, he adds.

And he continues: When an aquarium hobbyist buys a fish, they don't even suspect the path the fish had to go before getting into a petshop. Everything starts with "piabeiros", the local fishermen, who do almost the whole job and, most of the time, get only enough to live.

Francisco de Assis Bittencourt is a piabeiro. He lives in a five meters boat with his wife and his brother family: wife and three children.

Usually, Piabeiros deliver their production weekly to a "boss", in exchange of food - two or three times more expensive than in urban markets. Then come transporters, exporters and shop owners, who get most of the big money. Sometimes Piabeiros get paid in "cachaça", a Brazilian alcoholic drink. Because of cachaça, Piabeiros looses notion of their products value and gets eternal debts...

Illegally exported fishes, now bred in captivity, like Discus, are destroying Amazon artesanal fishing.

More than 50% of captured fishes dies.

Fish exportation in Brazil is 14 million units every year, but generates only 1 million-dollar a year.

Tetra Cardinal decreasing of population has been verified in Rio Negro.

That's it. Later I'll post some stuff.

Abraços,

Lauro.

Ralph
01-28-2003, 01:29 PM
Interesting read! It is nice to hear all the views of a situation and the Brasilian view is needless to say an important one.

I can see why that genetic source issue is a difficult one, it gets very complicated finding out who pays and who gets paid, and how much. I can think of all kinds of examples that would muddy the issue beyond solution. It's a shame that the domestic breeding programs didn't take place in Brasil.

And the situation for the piabeiros is also unfortunate. I don't want to sound too cynical, but sometimes I think that you can look at the entire human history in terms of the powerful taking advantage of the powerless. There does seem to be a conscious effort to overcome our history though and we are at least trying to find some level of fairness. The river situation would be simpler if the tribes were intact, some sort of boundaries could be established for river ownership, the tribes could collect the fish, and use the fair price money for the benefit of the tribe. But generally (correct me if I'm wrong, Lauro) the tribes have disappeared or dispersed, especially in much of the discus collection areas.

Anyways, good job posting the photos, Lauro, it is more difficult than it looks.
Obrigado Lauro

Lauro Baldini
01-28-2003, 06:13 PM
Some more pics:

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a1_11.jpg

Demene River

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/018.jpg

Demene River

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/barco.jpg
Demene River: 600km of extension. 31 families lives there. On the north, lives the Ianomani tribe.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/1.jpg
Rio Negro - The Black River

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/barco2.jpg
A Piabeiro's home.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a350.jpg
Woman and her child.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/arvore.jpg
Flooded forest. It remains under water for six months.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a1_66.jpg
Acará Mountain

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a1_68.jpg
Rondon Mountain

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/a176.jpg
Claudina de Souza Soares, the only living member of the Bahuana tribe.

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/demene/fotos/160.jpg
Ianomani woman.

Don_Lee
01-28-2003, 07:02 PM
Thanks so much for your contributions Lauro! It is so exciting for me, and many others here as well I am sure, to see such wonderful pictures and hear your views. Great to have you here!

Don ;D

Francisco_Borrero
01-28-2003, 07:49 PM
Lauro, thank you so much and I express my regards for the conviction and passion (besides excellent information) that you have brought to this topic and to us discus fanciers.

As a fellow South American (Colombia), as a zoologist/ecologist trained in the New World Tropics, and as a discus fancier, I will say that I understand your points and passion, and that I agree with some -but not all- of your recommendations.

Lauro, the problem is not the collection of tropical fish. The problem is the uncontrolled, unmanaged, inefficient, illegal, and indiscriminate collection of natural resources. These natural resources are renevable, if properly used. And it is the problem, challenge and opportunity of countries such as yours and mine to arrive at such management practices. Fish collection is not going to stop, and it is not the fault of those who wish to purchase fish, nor of the collectors. It is the fault of my country and yours that have changed their lives but cannot offer them alternative sources of income/food/needed resources. Should fish collection stop, we would have a very large number of people who would either not have that as a source of employment/income, or would continue to do it anyway in manners even less controlable than those currently in use. In fact, fish collection (and other resources) may be the only opportunity for some regions within our countries to stablish themselves in a productive manner, one that does not lead to the doom of the very things we want to save.
We did not choose our luck by having rich fish faunas. But we have the opportunity to use that to our advantage, or just simply see it disappear while "protecting" it. It may be that it will dissapear eventually anyway, a sad realization. But by ignoring the opportunity/need to educate, organize, manage the fish collectors and the whoe industry we would be dennying these people the opportunities to survive in a world that has irrevocably changed whether we like it or not. The opportunity is doing it but doing it right (a big difficult challenge at that). The doom is not doing it.
It is almost like someone else said (in many fewer words): The "fish" may be the only way of saving the whole thing. Of course the "fish" is not only fish, but all tropical natural resources.

Again, I have great appreciation for the points and ideas you are trying to offer us and you have done it excellently.
Gracias, Obrigado, Thank you.
Con respeto e carinho, Francisco.

Lauro Baldini
01-29-2003, 01:05 AM
Estimado Francisco:

This has been an interesting thread for all of us, I think, and specially to me, because I had the chance of reviewing some of my positions.

In fact, if I had to start the whole thing again, I would say to the first poster that he should buy a wild discus - and then I would present him the same facts I've been presenting here.

I agree with you in all your opinions. The only thing that makes me sad (besides Piabeiros lives, obviously) is that our countries have lost the opportunity of investing in breeding programs. Now, we would be discussing brazilian and colombian new strains, etc.

I agree with Ralph also, when he says the genetic issue is a very complicated matter. In fact, I think those regulations will never be anything but paper. Sad, but true.

Saludos a todos,

Lauro.

Francisco_Borrero
01-29-2003, 09:37 AM
Lauro,
I am glad we converge in opinnions and feelings about this important issue.
But our countries have not lost that opportunity for breeding/aquaculture/using our resources in socially and economically productive husbandry programs. The opportunity is still there, we just have not learned to take advantage of it. In fact, the more our natural resources degrade, the more opportunity we have, but this is not meant to imply that such degradation is good or necessary. Only that we have not lost it. It is not too late, all we have lost is time. Giving up in believing it is too late is giving up in finding solutions to the ecological, social and economical tragedy/reality of our blessed countries.
All the best, Francisco.

DarkDiscus
01-29-2003, 10:14 AM
Really great thread, folks! Thanks for sharing the viewpoints and perspectives. I really enjoyed reading (and looking at the pics) through it!

John

yellow sub
01-31-2003, 01:33 PM
This is a great thread.

One thing that always puzzled me is that why doesn't Brazil have its own breeding program, like in S.E. Asia.
Brazil is where the discus come from after all. All of the discus' needs can be found there. Perfect temp, water, etc...
If the asians can make a profit shiping discus to Japan, Europe, USA then why hasn't it taken off in Brazill?

Stephen

Ralph
01-31-2003, 02:48 PM
Good question Stephen that I can't answer completely.
The short answer is that they probably have or had breeding programs. I know there was an attempt in Peru and I think Surinam.
But you're right, the majority of breeding took place in Asia and Europe and should have taken place in Brasil.

Some likely or partial reasons:
We often take for granted our own natural resourses, I've seen similar things here in Arizona.
Breeding programs for other fish were well established in other countries so it was much easier to develop and produce new discus strains with existing facilities and knowledgeable people.
Financially it was just easier to take the fish out of the river and sell them rather than raise or breed them.
Access to discus collection areas were difficult at the time (and sometimes still are)when new breeding was taking place. So setting up a breeding facility would have been a logistics problem.
River flooding.
Governments can unintentionally make projects like this difficult. Brasil had a different government at that time and financial problems on top of that.
Supply and demand in other countries made breeding more economically feasible in those places.

I'm sure that this list could be added to but that is probably most of the main issues involved.

Francisco_Borrero
01-31-2003, 03:55 PM
I think that Ralph's list to answer Stephen's question is a good one. There are two factors that I believe have been very important:

1- In Asia as a whole, aquaculture is an ancient "art". Many individuals there have been culturing all kinds of aquatic species for hundreds, some over a thousand years ago. Aquaculture in the Americas is much, much newer. Aquaculture in South America is in its infancy, albeit with some very good specific results in relatively short time (salmon, Gracilaria and scallops in Chile; shrimp in Ecuador and Colombia).

2- For the most part, Asian fish culturists are individuals with skills, traditions, and personal interests. It is not a "national program", although in some countries such as China and Japan there has been long-standing support from prefectural agencies towards community aquaculture projects. In South America, there have not been such individual people (yet) to have the tradition, skill, interest and minimum capital to do such private enterprizes. Yes, they could do wonders eventually, but simply it has not been the case so far.
Thus, we cannot realistically ask "Why hasn't the government of Brazil developed....for discus?" It may be that one day such thing may become a national priority/enterprize, but the individual (private) background and maturity needed for such thing has not happened yet. Such national programs have not been the pattern in the initial stages of aquaculture programs in any country that has programs of any magnitude. All the big, sucessful programs are initiated by individuals with their capital and ideas. After that, government sponsorship/support has occurred in some but not all cases. Several important South American exceptions do exist in marine aquaculture in countries such as Chile and Brazil, and to a lesser extent and sucess, Venezuela and Ecuador.

The few programs/attempts of aquaculture of tropical fish in tropical South America (for the pet industry, as oppossed to food fish) have been initiated by foreigners, with foreign capital and with personal interests. Nothing wrong with that, it is just that our own folk have not developed such initiatives. The same is true for all major fish export programs. Mostly germans and americans, with a few others. This has not changed much yet.

This is why "Brazil hasn't developed....."
"Brazil" probably won't develop such thing any time soon. Some creative individual guy may or not do so. It would be nice if this person(s) were from Brazil, or Colombia, or Peru, but, Who knows ?

Just some thoughts.
Cheers, Francisco,

Lauro Baldini
01-31-2003, 04:02 PM
Ralph's answers are correct. I have only a few comments on that breeding program issue.

First of all, I think that a breeding program would require trained people, well-established facilities and government investment. It would be great for Brazil if this had happened.

But, looking only for the profit side of the question, it's a lot easier to pay a Piabeiro with "cachaça", then export the fishes without any regard to the environment or the development of Brazil.

Finally, third-world countries like Brazil has always been seen as source of raw material to be enriched somewhere else. We Brazilians have always thought of our country like this, and so has the rest of the world, with a few exceptions. This question has to be analysed as part of a complex political question. Nothing more.

Regards,

Lauro.

Lauro Baldini
01-31-2003, 04:07 PM
Just after I wrote my post, I read Francisco's post. Lots of good information.

yellow sub
01-31-2003, 05:42 PM
I would imagine that in south east asia the economic environment is simular to that of south america. You are probably right, in that it is cheaper to pay a fisherman to get wilds than it is to raise discus.

I doubt that it would take much to raise discus in Brazil. I wounder if it is just the infrastucture is just so use to exporting wild caught fish that they just don't realise how easy it would be to raise the fish themselfs. Especially the domestic lines of discus like blue diamonds, leopards, snake skins, marlboro reds, etc., many of the domestic lines would command a higher price than the wilds on average.

Stephen

hanleong
12-21-2003, 05:30 AM
A reference readup on :

Freshwater Fishes of Southeast Asia
Potential for the Aquarium Fish Trade and Conservation Issues

Southeast Asia is a conglomerate of continental landmasses and numerous islands, all of which lie within the equatorial belt. The freshwater fish fauna of this region is exceptionally diverse, and over 1000 species are now recognised

It is thus not surprising that the lucrative aquarium trade has been utilising numerous wild species in Southeast Asia for many years. The number of species which are traded, however, is
surprisingly small, despite the large number of species present. Much of the "official" trade has been with farm-bred species like guppies, goldfishes, kois, mollies, swordtails and cichlids, none of which are native to the region. While a great deal has been written about the trade of these species, much less is known about the wild fish trade. As with any natural resource, there are several conflicting points of view about using this resource. Economics dictate that the trade should be expanded, with more species and larger quantities exported. Conservationists argue that such a resource should be left alone and conserved while sentimentalists argue that trade of live animals is inhumane and should be banned outright. Reality, however, requires that a compromise be established.

full report at
http://rmbr.nus.edu.sg/biodiversitii/bio/aquarium_more.html

Alan
12-22-2003, 02:59 AM
Although the initial intent of the post was different, the subsequent posts are great eye openers and very informative. I would not have read this, since it was discussed almost a year ago, if not for hanleong's post that "resurrected" the information. Maybe the admin's can do something to preserve the value of the slant from the original post.

As for Brazil's predicament, I believe the most valuable property in the world is intellectual property. Kudos to the breeders who are able to produce strains that are "in demand" in the hobby. They deserve all the profit they can make for their time and innovative ideas. Yes, Brazil and the neighboring countries are the source of the "raw materials" but without harnessing it, they're just that - "raw materials." To earn money as collectors of discus is just that and it is in their best interest to preserve the natural habitat of the discus in order to keep on "collecting." So I don't think these collectors will intentionally destroy the natural environment.

Lauro, the solution for Brazil not earning the bigger profits compared to the breeders is right under your nose. "For every adversity, there is an equal or greater opportunity." It only takes a little creativity when all the resources are on hand. It has been posted on this thread. The only thing left to do is to act on it. For all I know, with the age of this thread, you may already have ;D