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TnMark
01-30-2003, 03:36 PM
I have been watching the discussions on these boards for a few months now, and now clearly realize that the anonymity of the Internet allows a lot of unscrupulous people to take advantage of others much more knowledgeable than me, too often.

I have spoken to Mike Wells twice now and was prepared to purchase about $250 of fish from him. He seems really knowledgeable and very caring about his fish. He even refused to ship this week because of the cold weather because he was concerned about the health of his fish. I also considered ordering fish from Cary at Great Lakes. These two people seemed to me to be the most honorable people on these boards. They were highly recommended by many other people on these boards.

I have however decided not to buy from these probably honorable people and instead to buy from my LFS. I don't know these people who are selling fish on the internet. I don't know any of the people making recommendations. I don't know if the pictures posted are truly what is claimed.

i think the certified breeder program proposed in daah where there would be arbitration and recourse for someone who purchased misrepresented fish would give me the comfort level i needed to purchase from an unknown source

Until then I will purchase from the people i know and trust and pay more and probably get fish of a lower quality. by not policing your business you are turning away some customers who need more assurance than an unknown person recommending a particular breeder>

Carol_Roberts
01-30-2003, 03:56 PM
I don't understand your logic ???

The two breeders you mention are well known, use their real names and have cutomers with cameras who frequent this board and post pictures of the exact discus purchased from them. Mike and Cary are frequently right here on this board where you can ask them questions.

I'm guessing you are new to discus. Yet you would rather rely on your local fish store, who may know less about discus than you and who probably gets 2nd rate discus from a wholesaler.

Yes, there are some fly by night operators who sell junk fish. Generally when they are found out, it is posted on the board to warn others.

I suggest you put off your next purchase for a while. Hang around here and see what's really going on. Then decide who to buy from.

bmrin1
01-30-2003, 04:22 PM
I have to agree with Carol, where is your logic?
You mention the certified breeder program at DAAH. I think it is a great idea. However I can speak from personal experiance with Mike and I can assure you that Mike Wells is a class act and does take pride in selling very good fish. He even keeps in touch with you after you get your new fish. He will also, and I know this for sure, make sure that you are satisfied and replace anything you are not happy with or have problems with.
I like to give my money to local people as much as the next guy but unless that local store has grade "A" fish and they know exactly where the fish come from I would rather burn my money. If spending $250 dollars on fish means nothing to you then go to the local store. I however would like to get the best fish possible with my money. That means I will and have gone to the breeders.
It is about trust and there are a lot of people out here in discus land that trust the two you mentioned and have had good experiences.
The best thing you can do is talk to the breeders and really get a feel for them before you buy. Just don't buy because everyone else buys from them. There is a reason that these two guys sell soooooooo many fish. Quality, Class and they Care.
Brian

jeep
01-30-2003, 04:41 PM
I might add... You think you know and trust your LFS? Think again! They are in the business of moving fish, period! LFS fish are USUALLY (not always) seconds. The only LFS within 20 miles of my house that sell discus wants $50 for sickly football shaped fish that resemble discus. Since they are exposed to all the other fish that no one knows where they come from, you may be spending several hundred dollars on fertilizer...

I picked up my new ones from Cary about 30 minutes ago. They have been bounced around all over the country on two different planes, and right now they are fighting to get out of the bags and acting like they're starving. Plus that, Cary still hasn't learned how to count. I got extras!!!

I understand your concept, but there is plenty of reading here in the archives and you can see for yourself who is reliable.

TnMark
01-30-2003, 05:03 PM
My logic is, why should I take advice from people I don't know. I think the forum is interesting, and a lot of good info is disseminated, but there is no way for me to know who the people making recommendations are or if they have any affiliation with who they are recommending.
Although I understand the legal liability, I think the policy of not allowing truthful negative postings with names along with positives is a bad one.
I may be in the minority as far as not trusting people I don't know, but where is the real validation of quality breeders.
I often buy from Ebay and carefully scrutinize feedback from people who it is verified actually purchased from a seller.
I believe some sort of validation would be good for the industry.

c-bones
01-30-2003, 05:08 PM
??? I have to agree with Carol and Brian.........You might need to wait before buying from these fine honest and caring knowlegable Breeders you mentioned, try your had with LFS Discus before running with the big dogs.
Raising Discus is an art and IMO Mike Wells is a GREAT artist.....I have lots of beautiful healthy happy Discus from him, an he's a great help when you need him, and wonderful to talk to too.
It is because of these conversations I have had with Mike Wells that I have come back to raising Discus.
Brian is right, helping the locals is a good thing but LFS Discus, well that truely is another thing.


Good Luck to you,
Rose

DarkDiscus
01-30-2003, 05:18 PM
TnMark,

I agree, you shouldn't buy from someone you don't know. So get to know them. A good breeder will spend time talking with you, going over the fish. You can then get them to e-mail you pics of the fish you are going to buy. Make the calls, put in the time, then buy the fish.

If you want great fish, you are better off going with those who know what they are doing.

JMHO,

John

Ryan
01-30-2003, 05:22 PM
I am not sure that I understand. You are all for a Certified Breeders Program, but you do not trust the people on this site. Wouldn't those buyers be the exact same people who would be posting responses for the Certified Breeders Program? If not, who would? The forum administration?

I also don't see a reason why people would lie about being happy with their fish from a breeder. If fifty people on this board have ordered from Cary with good results, it would be a little over the top to assume that all fifty people were lying and receiving some sort of compensation from Cary. It just doesn't happen that way.

People continually criticize the policy that this board holds in regards to breeders and sellers, yet there is no reason for it. I know that many are unhappy. We tried it the other way before and it was a big problem. The subject is closed. If you are in support of a Certified Breeder Program, express your interest at DAAH. At this point, we have no plans of attempting such a program because I honestly don't know where I would start or how we could even handle it.

Ryan

fossil
01-30-2003, 05:56 PM
I have a question?....

Why does everyone bash LFS? I mean a lot of my fish stores around here do suck but I have one thats about a hour a way that puts on a better show then Sea World.lol

I mean every tank and fish in there look better and happier then most fish I have seen at shows. With about 3,000 gallons + its awesome. Most times they won't even sell to anyone unless they have perfect tank, they ask questions about water, size of tank and etc. and make sure you have the correct stuff for that fish or they won't sell it to you. Now if thats not nuts I don't know what is.

I'm just trying to let everyone know that all LFS aren't something from under your Grandma's bed, meaning all don't smell and are rotting. You prob. have a great LFS near you, you just got to look. A good fish store is kinda like gold you have to look for it to find it.

:) AHhhh that felt better

brewmaster15
01-30-2003, 06:04 PM
I think those that posted before me have covered most of my thoughts well here.

My advice , which of course you are free to take or leave, as you don't know me, is to keep researching. On Dec 21 you posted you were new and about to make the plunge, after spending about a months time looking into it.

Your reasoning here doesn't make any sense. Forget the breeder hype, forget the LFS vs breeder issues, and forget about a certification plan for breeders. I don't know of a single species of fish where one exists, not that it can't happen, just not an easy thing to put together.

Read the disease board, and see what you are going to have to deal with. See what we have all dealt with. You will have to deal as well with it. If you think your LFS will be able to help you with Discus specific ailments...think again. Your best chance of Success is to get to know the reputable breeders out there, and to use boards like this for the resource they are.

What really confuses me is the reasoning.... Where do LFS get their discus? They either buy them locally from small breeders like those on this board, or the buy them wholesale from big breeders like those on this board, or they import them from God knows where. You have a chance to go thru the source, buy good fish, and instead you are opting for petshop fish, that have been handled poorly in most cases. Sure there are good LFS out there, but few know a thing about Discus. I consider myself pretty good at curing sick fish, but even with all that knowledge, I have lost far more Pet shop fish than I ever care to remember.


For what you will pay at the LFS, you could buy some really nice fish that won't miss the food when they eat, won't have body deformities, won't be infested to the point of death and stunted growth from parasites.

I can almost bank on seeing you again here, or another site out there trying to get advice on how to cure these ailing fish. Do yourself a favor, learn from all of our mistakes.... Thats why this board exists. Please learn from our mistakes.

I can't tell you how many hours I have spent trying to help someone cure sick fish, but I can tell you that most of the time pet shop fish are the patients.

If my tone is hard here, understand I am often up late at night trying to help people who unknowingly bought sick fish from a LFS, and here you are chosing to do so because their isn't "certified Program". and theres one for your LFS?

-al

Ryan
01-30-2003, 06:10 PM
You are correct. Not every LFS is a bad LFS. There are some who have excellent customer service and quality. There was a little mom-n-pop store near me several years ago that I loved to go in. I got my first discus from there and they were very nice--no short gill plates, not "juiced up" to be colorful, eyes were nice and small, fins were clear and erect... but sadly the owner sold the business and it has since gone downhill.

Many discus hobbyists get their first fish from an LFS. If your LFS carries nice stuff, by all means, support them! However, many times LFS do not follow quarantine procedures, and they keep their discus on central filtration where the water is shared between all the other tanks. Sometimes the fish get sick (unintentionally) and it's probably too time-consuming and expensive for the LFS to try and treat the fish.

I also think that many LFS (again, not all of them) hire part-time people who are looking for a job. Many often have no experience with fish. The places around my area are like that. Some of them give advice without any real knowledge of the subject.

When newcomers visit the forum and post their problems with sick fish, many times they've bought them from an LFS, skipped quarantine procedures, followed bad advice from the LFS employees, etc. I don't think anyone here is trying to say that you cannot buy fish from an LFS, but by recommending a knowledgable breeder or seller they are helping eliminate one more of the potential problems (unhealthy fish from a questionable source) often experienced by new discus-keepers.

Sadly, none of the LFS carry discus anymore where I live. They all told me that basically they were too sensitive and that no one bought them. This is probably because of the lack of time and attention spent on the discus' special needs.

Ryan

aloha_discus
01-30-2003, 06:33 PM
Hello TnMark,
I dont want to start trouble, but you say you cant trust advice from people you dont know, then why are you here this is all about opinions and advice. I have never bought discus from Mike or Cary but that will change soon because of this site. You are getting FEEDBACK from everyone that has posted here and they even post pics. TnMark just wait on purchase and keep reading ,take a look at the gallery, the breeder sec, or for that matter everything.

Ike

allan_mark76
01-30-2003, 06:40 PM
If you are really serious about buying discus I would get in touch with either Cary (248) 414-5910 or Mike (216)-587-0025.

Talk to them personally and ask your questions and get to know them as a person and also as a breeder. IF you come to the conclusion that you cannot trust them then that's your decision.

Opinions in life is what shapes your view of the world.



About purchasing LFS discus - I would hesitate from buying LFS discus as the quality is just not there. As you mature into this hobby you will find a lot of problems physically and cosmetically with LFS Discus. Also it's come to my impression that LFS discus are not healthy to begin with and you will find yourself in an upward battle as to what's going on with your discus and blame yourself not the LFS. "YES" supporting your LFS is great, but buying such delicate fish from them is not the right way to go. If you are set in buying from the LFS just be prepared as to what's in store. I've seen some diamonds in a ruff at some LFS. It's your money in the end $ $ $ $ $ $.

A-

saints27
01-30-2003, 06:41 PM
Unless your LFS are breeding there own stock where do you think they came from???????
Local breeders maybe?
And of course they are selling them for the same price that they purchased them for!
Its just my personal opinion but i will never buy Discus from an LFS as they are generally a lower grade , not looked after as well as a breeder does (feeding, water changes etc)and not to mention they are 3 times the price.
I live in Australia and a lovely lady from Canada on this forum introduced me to a breeder that lives near me ,she recommended him, I went and looked at his fish and have never regretted it he taught me so much and still does.
As I said just my opinion.

Jamie

Nate
01-30-2003, 06:45 PM
TnMark-Good for you! You are entitled to your own opinion and thank you for sharing it.

Not all LFS' were created equal. I've seen some that had great discus and were very knowledgeable. It all depends on their source.

How can you question the logic of someone who want's to see the product before putting his money on the table? I don't routinely buy anything without seeing it first.

I've been burned...badly....by one of the prominent discus breeders that is hyped up all over the net. 5 fish out of 6 were runts, the other 1 was parrot beaked. The runts were no fault of my own considering that the other six fish I got from a different breeder on the same day grew out very well. Some of those fish have since been incorporated into another breeders program.

Nate

TnMark
01-30-2003, 07:05 PM
Let me tell you all a little bit about myself. I was an officer for one of the biggest employer health insurance companies in the country for 7 years and was in the industry for 20. I quit 3 years ago after refusing to help them steal money from a client. I have been working the last 3 years to stop them from stealing millions from their other clients and to get restitution for these companies.
I also had a bad experience in investing, and due to a lot of hype and recommendations from people I don't know invested in a risky bulletin board stock and have lost a lot a money. I know all of the arguments about research and due diligence, and I did as much as I could and still got
burned.
I am much more cynical than most everyone else on this board and have learned to trust nobody. I realize that I am not the norm. So maybe I have some baggage that others on this board don't have.
That being said, I'd like to make a few comments:

I am not lobbying for a certification. I am saying that a validation of breeders business practices is something that should be looked at. If Simply and DAAH can't or don't want to do it, a suggestion I have would be for the quality breeders to form an association, not necessarily to standardize quality but to offer recourse to unhappy purchasers. Since many of these quality breeders already have these poicies individually, by getting together to validate each other and exclude unethical breeders would enhance the good breeders status.
The LFS I buy from has good quality fish. I have purchased from them for 9 years and never had a problem. They are clearly not experts on Discus though and I would prefer to buy from a breeder. However, I do like the fact if I have a problem, I can go back to the store and I know they will fix the problem. Shipping is expensive. If I have a problem with a breeder, even a good one, additional shipping costs do add up.
This will be my final post on this subject. I did not mean to get everyone upset. What I have done is make reservations for the ACA show in Cinncinati where I look forward to meeting many of you to get to know you better.
I feel this board is a real asset to the Discus community and hope I didn't alienate you. You are a great resource.
Mark Neigut

jeep
01-30-2003, 07:21 PM
Mark, I don't think anyone's upset with you, it's just easy to see that in a written word. There's no tone of voice to listen to. I think your question was a good one.

Many LFS's are good and respectable. Many more are not. You've heard from a lot of people that have had bad experiences and you have been given the logical reasons why discus and LFS don't traditionally mix. (no tone here ;D )

If you trust your own LFS, go for it. You said you can rely upon your LFS if there's a probelm? Maybe that's so and that's great. That's also not the case with all LFS's. When I mentioned the terrible discus for sale at rediculous prices near my home, the main thing that caught my eye was the fact that every fish they sell comes with a 3 week guarantee. Every fish EXCEPT discus. Once a discus is paid for they wash their hands of any further responsibility. By the looks of their fish, I would not expect them to make it more than a few weeks. Absolutley terrible!

Good luck in your purchase no matter who you end up doing business with...

Brian

fcdiscus
01-30-2003, 07:51 PM
Hey Mark, Just FYI, Cary Strong is DAAH's only certified Breeder as of now! In my opinion, you are doing yourself an injustice by not giving him a try! Frank ;)

Liz_Streithorst
01-30-2003, 09:38 PM
Mark,

As my darling departed husband used to say, "Shoot (suit)yourself". In this case I think it applies.

Liz

Don_Lee
01-30-2003, 09:47 PM
Welcome to the board Mark. You bring up good points, but IMO nothing beats experience and research. And even with that, nothing is guaranteed. Buying fish is like most other things, in some ways it is a calculated risk. I would hang around awhile, read up, and if you choose email privately people whom you pick to request opinions.

Don ;D

Jeff
01-30-2003, 10:12 PM
Mark,

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to visit a breeder you are interested in and get a look first hand at their operation. I don't know anyone who would turn you down to wanting to see their hatchery.

Kap
01-31-2003, 12:16 AM
TnMark:

You cannot go wrong purchasing your discus from Mike Wells. I live about 40 minutes from Mike, phoned him, and made an appointment to see his discus, with the intent of purchasing some young ones. He promptly returned my phone call, invited me to come, and took the time to answer all my questions. The pictures you have seen on Simplydiscus regarding Mike's operation are accurate-the fish you see are his-and the posts you read such as this one are real. Mike is cordial, sincere, and truly loves discus. He wants us to be successful with his fish because we will be satisfied customers and come back for more, and recommend him to our friends. I am doing this unsolicited and without his knowledge or even permission to make these comments. Do yourself a favor and visit Mike or a breeder within driving distance of where you live. See for yourself. You can even save the shipping charge and apply it toward some fish you get to pick out yourself-from the person who successfully bred the parents, raised the fry, and now offers hundreds for you to choose from! What an experience-you will never have the range of choices in your LFS! E-mail some of the people who often post here and ask about their experiences, what they have heard, and what they recommend. I do not think you can go wrong following the seasoned advice you will find among these many posts on so many topics related to keeping the king of aquarium fish!

01-31-2003, 01:07 AM
TnMark,
First off I do not know you from a man in the moon. But as God as my witness: You can buy from Cary, Mike, or Jeff and I will guarntee that you will not find any better fish from anyone else! These fine gentleman care about these fish, they are not aka DISCUS PIMPS. They honestly care about the fish and you the buyer. They want it to be a win win situation for everyone involved, and they BACK their fish 100%.
But you are a grown up (over 18) so spend your money anyway you like.

Miles

daddyg70
01-31-2003, 02:32 AM
Mark,

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND BUYING FROM AN EXPERIENCED BREEDER/DISTRIBUTOR. THIS IS WHY:

I have a 60g tank and started out with 3 very good quality discus from an LFS. My wife got them for me for xmas 2002 and fell in love with them. I felt I needed to get more because two larger were harassing the smaller. I wanted to spread the aggression around. After reading books, message boards and breeder/distributor websites I learned that QUALITY discus comes from breeder/distributors. Luckily, I found two in my area (Los Angeles) and I did not want to pay for shipping.
One of them is Jeff at discusfarm.us. He just posted a message on this topic. He was closer to my home. When I called him for discus availability, he said he had discus but could not sell because they were still in quarantine. So I had to drive one hour to Orange County to an "authorized" Wattley discus distributor. He was very helpful and I bought two Wattley Red Panda and an imported blue diamond. Even though I did not quarantine them, they are doing great now and they look nicer than my original three.
I did end up buying one more from Jeff last weekend. He is very knowledgable and friendly too. I originally went to his store to buy some california black worms (CBW) from him. I figured that he took good care of his CBWs since he fed them to his own stock. The LFS in my area just keep it in the fridge until they sell it all. When I arrived Jeff and his brother were busy doing water changes to all their tanks. Their fish are beautiful and look VERY healthy. I have never seen that quality in a LFS. These fish actually looked better than the fish I bought from the Wattley distributor! I had my wife take a look and thanks to her I spent 59 dollars more than I was planning to spend!

If I could start over again, I would only buy from an experienced breeder/distributor. As a fellow cynic, I wanted to see the fish first hand before I drop money. Luckily, I was able to do that. Good luck with your first discus. Just make sure you buy more than three!

Greg

brewmaster15
01-31-2003, 09:17 AM
Goodluck Mark,

I hope your LFS is as good with Discus as they are with other fish. I also hope that they get them from a good breeder, and not just from a lowend wholesaler because they came in at a very good price for resale in the LFS market. I also hope they have the knowledge to know these fish do not belong in a central filtration system at water temps most other trops like, and that they do best with very frequent water changes, and a diverse diet consisting of more than just flakes. In my area, few if any know all this, fewer still have the resources or space to accomodate discus.

This will be your first purchase of Discus, I hope your experience is a good one, often times the first is so frustrating it becomes the last. I'dhonestly hate to see you go that route.

Its not anger you are seeing here, its genuine concern.

take care,
al

mench
01-31-2003, 09:23 AM
Well lets see.....if you get told by x amount of people that Mike and cary,who by the way I have gotten fish from both of them,and all x amt of the people say that they are good people to by from and the same x amt of people say that it is bad to buy from the LFS...himmmmmmmm what is that saying..if it walks like a duck,sounds like a duck,looks like a duck,maybe it is a duck......And the thing about e-bay...I also have bought tons from e-bay that is until recently when someone hacked into my account and was selling expensive so called antique clocks and was useing my name and feedback and my phone number for a contact..you haven't lived till you start getting calls at all hours demanding to know ..where are the clocks tha I spent 900$ for and being threatend from anywhere from law suits to bodyly (sp) harm...so e-bay isn't all its cracked up to be either.....
Do what you want when you buy your fish,just don't come back on the board saying WAH WAH my fish are bad and dying and what can I do?????
Good luck with you fish quest....

Mench

wildthing
01-31-2003, 10:20 AM
I am much more cynical than most everyone else on this board and have learned to trust nobody.
Mark Neigut



Come live in NYC & learn how to be truly cynical!
IMO the kind of suspicions you have are a good survival mechanism!

:)

DW

Wahter
01-31-2003, 12:30 PM
Mark,

As it's been said, some LFS are better than others (some breed their own discus). I didn't recall seeing you say where you are located, but in my experience, most of the LFS I've visited have fish that aren't of the best quality - 'football shaped', 'disproportionate eye size', narrow foreheads, etc... what really irks me is seeing 2" discus with lots of bright red colors; these are mostly likely treated with hormones, etc... but as it's been said, many of the stores don't take care of the discus they have and see them as an expensive risk to stock. One of my first discus is a store bought fish that was sold to me as a colbalt blue - she turned out to be a brown. One shop in the Baltimore area that gets in nice discus is http://www.aquariumcenter.com

My big gripe about some of the LFS is that many times they don't have control of what they receive - I've seen many pretty pl*cos arrive with sunken eyes and sunken stomaches - on the brink of death. I've tried to bring a couple back to good health, but was unsuccessful (I think many of the members on this forum have tried to rescue some sickly LFS fish). I had asked the owner of one of the LFS here about getting some wild/ red spotted green discus - she was honest and told me that for her, it's a 'crap shot', sometimes they receive nice greens with a few spots, sometimes just plain greens - she said they literally never know what will arrive. So I ended up ordering a few from Alberto at http://www.aquatechnics.net . He took several photos of his fish and emailed them to me, so I could tell him which type of coloration/ markings I liked and sent those fish to me.


You definitely are right to be wary when shopping for discus. There are some sad and scary stories posted on this forum about some bad fish being sold as good quality fish. Depending on how much time and money you want to put into keeping discus, definitely talk with some breeders at length before making any decisions, and maybe you can take a short trip to visit a few breeders. I've been trying to compile my visits to various breeders and importers onto my website. (I still need to get over to Joe's http://www.enchanteddiscus.com). And everyone agrees, it's more fun and best to be able to hand pick the fish you want!!!

Again, you didn't say where you live (or maybe I missed it), but you can also sometimes (not always) find good fish at some of the aquarium club auctions. (not necessarily at great deals though - sometimes you do, sometimes you don't).

If you like the eBay feedback system, then you can read all the feedback which the customers have posted about specific breeders here. It's the same.

You're definitely doing things the right way though - do some research first, then get the fish. I think too many times we see people who get some live animal (puppy, kitten, chicken, hamster, fish, etc...) first then realize they didn't know what they were getting into!

HTH,

Walter

P.S. - here are the photos from my visit to Cary's place:

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/discus/showcase/cary/index.html

Monette
01-31-2003, 12:37 PM
When we see Discus in a LFS...*ALL* of the tanks where the Discus are housed have a little sign in the corner..."NO GUARANTEE ON DISCUS"

hmmmm tells me all I need to know!

Nate
01-31-2003, 01:16 PM
You do realize that Mark is being blasted for doing the same thing that some of you are doing to the LFS'. The decision to buy fish he can see from an LFS instead of buying fish he can't see from a breeder is foolish? C'mon. Where is the sense in that. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a good fish from an LFS'. As long as quarentining procedures are used where is the problem? The idea that no LFS has good fish is not a very good one.


When we see Discus in a LFS...*ALL* of the tanks where the Discus are housed have a little sign in the corner..."NO GUARANTEE ON DISCUS"

hmmmm tells me all I need to know!


That's a pretty broad brush to be painting all LFS' with. We have places in Seattle that import their fish in from their family hatcheries in the orient. Some of the discus don't look too bad. I know a guy here that has been in the hobby for years and never purchased any fish directly from a breeder. He still seems to do just fine.

JMO,
Nate

01-31-2003, 01:30 PM
Nate,
All the LFS in Albany, Eugene, Springfield, Salem and the ones I have seen in Portland say "No Guarantee On Discus"
To me it makes sense to get to know the breeder and his/her practices before buying fish. Pictures and recommendations are hard to beat.
But as I said earlier he is a grown up and can do whatever he likes.

IMO
Miles

01-31-2003, 01:46 PM
The LFS I owned (we just closed our doors for the final time today) gave no guaranatee on Discus either. Think about it, why would we? They have the ability to choose the fish so that isn't an issue. When I buy fish sight-unseen from a breeder they are guaranteed to be alive when I get them. So I guaranteed the same thing in the LFS, and we never ever sold any dead Discus. We also never had a Discus die in the bag on the way home to the customer's house. And after that point the risk is that of the customer's. If he/she can't land the fish properly, has unsuitable tank conditions, doesn't quarantine them then anything can happen.

Dave

Monette
01-31-2003, 01:56 PM
That's a pretty broad brush to be painting all LFS' with

Nate...I did not paint all LFS....nor have I used a broad brush.

What I said was when we see Discus in LFS


...*ALL* of the tanks where the Discus are housed have a little sign in the corner..."NO GUARANTEE ON DISCUS"


Miles, not sure where you are from but we, too, are in Oregon. And I was referring to LFS that we have been in, around the Portland area. There are a couple of very nice LFS and we buy other fish from...but when it comes to discus, we like a little more background on them (more than a LFS worker seems to be able to give...yes we have asked ??'s)

Even if the fish we buy have been imported, we like to know that and see all the other fish they were imported with. Along with knowing when they came in, how they are eating, etc.

If anyone has a LFS they know and trust...that's great. If it works for you that is great. Do what you are comfortable with.

Just another opinion :)

daninthesand
01-31-2003, 02:34 PM
Dave.

Did you give guarantees on fish other than discus? If so, how does the customers' viewing, selecting, purchasing, transporting, tank conditions, or quarantine procedures differ for those fish that do have a guarantee?

If no fish had a guarantee, then there is no point to my post ;)

mench
01-31-2003, 03:05 PM
I really don't think we are "blasting" anyone here.We are just giving our opinions on our local fish stores and two of the breeders that we have dealt with...most of the fish stores around me won't take discus because they are too hard to keep,that is thier words not mine..Others do get discus in and buy from local breeders,but be sure to buy them when they come in cuz a week later they don't look too good.
Enough said on the subject...do all the research and decide for your self..they will be your fish...

Mench

01-31-2003, 03:16 PM
OK.... I started to read this thread thinking... "Oh no, NOT again"....

then headed to the kitchen for a sandwhich...

Came back (sandwhich in hand) and read some more...

Then again... thinking "Hmmm why have we not seen warnings of this in 51?"

then I got thirsty and went for a beer.

Came back (beer in hand) and finally landed on page 3...

My conclusion, if you care? (Beer still full) I truely think this IS:

Mark's Official Breeder Certification Thread

Is that not what you desired, sir?.

Cya... need to finish that beer b4 it gets too warm.... :P

BTW... I do not need to mention my experience with Cary, Mike, Joe or the rest. Its all here for ya hun!..... Enjoy your fishies!.... I sure do!... :)

brewmaster15
01-31-2003, 03:16 PM
Nate,
The probelm here is...
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a good fish from an LFS'. As long as quarentining procedures are used where is the problem? mark has never bought or owned discus. How many times does someone post a picture of discus here and on other sites that they thought was good discus but wasn't? When I first got into discus I didn't a thing about what to buy, when you start its at the bottom of the learning curve.

My purpose here is not to slam anyone, or LFS. Facts are most LFS don't even chose to carry discus because of the difficulties involved. That in itself say alot. Then think about the specialist side of things... How many species does a LFS have to learn about? How many does a breeder of Discus? Who would probably know more about Discus?

If someone is new to discus I can only advise them what I feel is their best chance at getting good healthy fish. From all the experiences I have seen posted and from working at a LFS and seeing the wholesalers many LFS get discus from , that best chance is with a known breeder, that has made many happy customers.

If someone has a LFS near them and they can get them great healthy discus... then by all means buy them there. But you should at least know where or who that shop gets them from.

All the quaranteen in the world, won't help a fish that contracted TB in a LFS (recent study showed as many as 30% of LFS fish have this uncurable,contagious, and fatal disease.) Nor will it help a fish that was fed too little and is now stunted or has a curved spine. It won;t help a fish that was fed hormones because the LFSs like brightly colored fish , even at a small size. It won't help you grow that fish, and breed it and get fish that look like their parents. Only a fish gotten from a a breeder that takes pride in what they do can tell you if the fish is an f1, f2, otherwise, you could get a fish that could already be so inbred it does nothing for you.

If you ask the people on this board where they would feel safest in purchase fish, the majority would say a breeder, why? because most of us didn't know any better when we started and had bad experiences with LFS Discus. Run a poll if you want to check that out.

Healthy Discus can live for many years , maybe the solution for Mark is be patient, find someone near him , and visit that breeder.

Lfs are great estblishments use them for what they are good at, Lfs good at discus are the exception not the rule.


jmo,
al

01-31-2003, 03:23 PM
Dan,

Yes we did give guarantees on other fish. Most of the factors you mentioned don't differ with other fish. But the conditions required by Discus do differ, as is the skill required to keep Discus. The cost of the Discus also differs. But that's not really the point of my post, nor this thread. I was merely pointing out that the guarantee given by a breeder that ships the fish to you is about the same as no guarantee at a LFS on a Discus. The fish is alive in your tank the day it arrives, beyond that is your responsibility.

Dave

daninthesand
01-31-2003, 03:27 PM
Ok Dave.

Point noted.

Daniel :)

TnMark
01-31-2003, 03:48 PM
I would love to go to a breeder and pick out fish. That would make me feel more comfortable, even though I am not an expert. My problem is the closest breeder is about a 5 hour drive, Rocky Mountain Discus. When I privately emailed members about them I was advised not to use them.
I would love to go to Cleveland (Mike Wells) or Michigan (Great Lakes) but they are about 600 miles away.

Tyler
01-31-2003, 04:15 PM
There are plenty of other breeders out there who may be closer to you....
Jeff Doty
Chad Bertoni
Jeff (discusfarm)
and believe me, there are more than that.
Just ask around, and you could get lucky and find somewhere close to visit.

Tyler

Jeff
01-31-2003, 04:29 PM
Mark,

Its worth the wait untill you can check out a breeder you like. The odds are against you with the lfs. In southern California there are approx. 25,000,000 people within driving distance of me. That equals out to a few hundred pet stores. Out of these there are less than 10 that I would buy discus from. Granted I have not visited every store, but since I sell to many I have been in a lot of them. Most of the stores I sell to I wouldn't buy from either after they mix my stock into their tanks. Its luck of the draw. Feel lucky?

ronrca
01-31-2003, 04:35 PM
Hi Mark,
I understand your concern as I as well feel uncomfortable spending a lot of money and getting burned (I dont have much to start with anyways)! As suggested already, buying from a local breeder is the best and, like yourself, there are not many local breeders close enough to me either. I have been on this site since August 2002 and I have met people that do live relatively close to me like Smokey in Canmore, darcy in lethbridge, Dave_C in Winnipeg, April in Vancouver plus more, all within 12 hours drive (Winnipeg may be cutting it close). All recommend Cary, Mike, Jeff and Chad !

What Im trying to say is try to find locals that you can talk to. See what their opinions are. You can then make your own conclusions. The most convincing thing for me is an address (not a PO number), phone number and pics of the hatchery!

Just wanted to put my 2 bits in, in support of Cary, Mike, Jeff and Chad which imo from all the responses from others who bought their discus (Dave, April, etc.) are better than certified!

HTH!

brewmaster15
01-31-2003, 05:29 PM
Mark,
Not that there is anything wrong with the other breeders reccomended here. but...

For what its worth to you I rate Rocky Mountain Discus as one of the best Discus breeders out there. Few out there have as many years in it as Al Johnson has. I have bought repeatedly from him , and will continue to do. I wish I lived half as close as you do to him. I'd be raiding his stock everyweekend. You should give him a call and talk to him. 5 hours drive would be well worth it IMO. Al Johnson is one class act!

Much of my breeding stock has come from him over the years.


http://a9.cpimg.com/image/C5/61/16121029-c802-017C0188-.jpg

hth,
al

Monette
01-31-2003, 05:54 PM
Warm beer...Yuck!... Don't let that happen Julz...

Nice fish Al....

I have heard nice things about Rocky MTN also... I have not ordered fom them personally but do know of someone who orders from them and they are completely pleased!

Nate
01-31-2003, 05:59 PM
When I said blasting what I was refering to was a lot of "I don't see the logic." Blasting was probably too harsh of a word. I know Mark is new to the hobby, so instead of questioning his logic, why don't we point out what he should look for? Things like round body, healthy appetite, good eye to body ratio, no deformities (pigeon beak, deformed fins, short gill covers, etc.), and good light coloration.

He's chosen his path, so instead of saying things like "it's your money," help him out to make it a better experience. Once he has his first discus under his belt he may want to start ordering from breeders. In my opinion too much time in this thread has been devoted to defending certain breeders, and not enough time towards spreading knowledge.

Dave-Good point on the guarantee's. I've never thought of it that way. Sorry to hear about your shop.

Nate

Ryan
01-31-2003, 07:05 PM
Nate,

We recently added this Basics for Beginners section so that people such as TnMark could ask questions and learn things. He didn't ask for suggestions in his post regarding what to look for in a quality discus, so no advice in that area was offered. However, if Mark is interested, there have been a few recent threads that he may want to check out:

Recommendations on what to buy
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6126

What not to buy
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6125

Education series: Cary Strong's discus
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6086

These threads point out good and bad features on discus and include example pictures.


In my opinion too much time in this thread has been devoted to defending certain breeders, and not enough time towards spreading knowledge.

I wouldn't consider it 'defending' anyone. People are stating their positive experiences with the breeders they have purchased from. This would be, in my opinion, the grass-roots start of a Certified Breeders Program, which is what Mark's thread was initially about.

IMO, this entire board is devoted to spreading knowledge. I'm not sure, though, what more knowledge there is to spread regarding this particular topic.

Ryan

TnMark
01-31-2003, 10:47 PM
Thank you everyone for your opinions. After reading all of the posts and having a 3rd long conversation with him, I have been convinced to buy my Discus from Mike Wells. Mike will be sending me about 8 fish in the next couple of weeks. I believe he really cares about his fish and is an honorable person.

I do believe there is an important place for buying from my LFS, but that may not be for Discus, I'm not sure.

I will be going to the ACA convention and hope to meet Mike and many of you there. Again, thank you.
Mark Neigut

01-31-2003, 10:57 PM
Mark,
:thumbsup:


Monette
Send me IM and I will give you the names.


Miles

02-01-2003, 12:58 AM
Dark Discus--John, I would like to address your ascertation about picture taking. I personally do not know many breeders/importers that take the pictures of the ACTUAL discus one may or may not want to buy. This may be possible for someone who has 100 fish. How can I guarantee the discus I had pose for me will be here ten days from now when the money is received well after 5 more inquiries and pics from 5 other businesses?

Most of us are extremely busy with maintaining our product, facility, answering questions about our fish and fish bought elsewhere, giving technical advice, greeting visitors assisting on this very Forum and maintaining our high standards. This allows precious little time for ," Watch the Birdie " Then there are those of us that are photographically challenged such as I.

IMO, a photo does not automatically instill trust nor should it.
" Word of Mouth" and recommendations are the best testament to the integrity of the entreprenor. Like Cary, David Weber , Mike & the rest, I rely on the satisfaction of my customers and intend to be here for the long haul. You want pictures? Come and take as many as you want!

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed, are not necessarily those of the management. ;D The mgmt. Joe

Wahter
02-01-2003, 01:07 AM
Joe, that is the nicest photo of your fish that I've seen you post, to date! Stop enticing me like that! ;D ;D ;D

Walter

April
02-01-2003, 02:38 AM
Mark. i think by talking to mike a few times already..you are doing it the right way. just ask mike if April ever emailed him. LOL. by the time i finished grilling him with 10 questions a day.....we bacame friends. and he knows well what i like. and cary also..for that matter...he had to design a whole new way to answer my questions or he'd be up all night typing. question. _______insert answer here.
question.....answer......question.....answer.
i can honestly say most i learnt i learnt from emails and they were always kind enough to answer each one..or phone me. i can assure you his follow up care will be there.
all the breeders on this board go far beyond to help everyone. Joe also. 8)
Mark.....were your long conversations with Mike an hour long? lol.

02-01-2003, 04:57 AM
IMO Pril.... I think ALL breeders have the gift of gab.... (Yes.. even you Joe! lol) If I may call the kettle black... :P lol Now..... if we could only get our fish to talk back, that would be way cool. ;)

fossil
02-01-2003, 11:08 AM
Joe NICE FISH :o

TnMark
02-01-2003, 11:31 AM
April, an hour and a half. :D

April
02-01-2003, 11:46 AM
LOL Mark.

Denny
02-01-2003, 11:50 AM
you chose wisely. of course with the players you were choosing from, they would have all been wise ;D

denny

02-01-2003, 11:52 AM
Julz, I am shocked and outraged :o with your recent comment about the probability that all breeders--even Joe has the gift of gab. I had to consult Cary to determine if your remark was meant in a disparaging fashion or not. ???
You have indeed your hand and we may need to step up the Best Western Security to make sure the two " Fish Filchers " are kept at bay. April and you will not get away with the " Great Train Robbery " and heist our Discus at the ACA.

Cary confirmed what I suspected. Your comments are dripping on the floor with derogatory intent. I was speaking very highly of you and April and this is my return? Forever labeled with "Diarhea of the Mouth" is not at all flattering and takes a long time to dispel. Many people have actually recommended I seek a shrink to find out if the metal plate in my head is causing erroneous signals triggering the lack of oxygen to the cerrabellum. I do notknow about that--but i can tune into mare channels than Direct TV and get free Pay Per View. Elena Bobbit has volunteered her Hoffritz cutlery expertise, but I need a second opinion on tat matter. It seems I can't shake this introvertedness issue no matter who I see. The voices in my head have ceased talking to me after a recent fall from the 19 th floor of a two story apartment building. Had I only known it would be that easy! Gotta go--As you are my witness--I am a man of few words. Joe aka Cat got your tongue :gossip:

brewmaster15
02-01-2003, 11:59 AM
Hey Joe.... talk about self incriminating evidence!! the verdict.... Guilty as charged :)

-the other management,
al

Ps that Fish is a beauty, I've always thought of you as specializing in the spotted's more... Is that one also one of your imported stock? and did you take that picture?....practice..practice...you improving there!
;)

02-01-2003, 01:51 PM
Ryan hurry get the MOP!. lol.....

Oh Joe.... I think the only cat that should be involved in this story is the one I let outa the bag....;D ;D ;D lol "Cat got your tongue"... ::) Yeah OK but... I don't think so. ;) . I just couldn't let you get by that one.....

Now where are those other "Gabbers" ? .....

;D ;D ;D

TnMark
02-01-2003, 08:21 PM
Just got back from my LFS. They had the new discus they got from Mac's. They looked terrible. Their color was bad, they had fin rot, their shape wasn't good at all and they looked small compared to other fish the same age. The store had them quarentined and was not selling them until they were in good health.

02-01-2003, 08:41 PM
Mark....
Ya know? I used to love to go to the LFS to see all the new Discus, now that I am more educated I leave the LFS sick to my stomache...

With my experience.... chances are... them poor babies will never recover!. and WME they just end up selling them off to move them out..... Again.. Just my experience.... :(

There is a LFS I love to go to just to see their Heckles. Last time I ventured in, I wanted to give them poor guys a hug.... They were so skinny that if they were to turn sideways they would absolutely disappear. :( Gawd how I wanted to rescue them.... :P

April
02-01-2003, 09:24 PM
ok....as we can all see....Joe is a man of very few words.
i think all lfs who sell discus should be discus breeders. and hand picked fish to sell.and tanks worked on by a discus person. whos gonna sign up for the jobs?
i....on the other hand am doingmy part to turn the dog grooming salon into a discus hatchery. lol. so far its working.

02-01-2003, 11:18 PM
Brew, Heres two blue in a row . a hi body Brilliant and a Blue Scorpion ;)

02-01-2003, 11:19 PM
and another---young blue scorpion --about 4"

02-01-2003, 11:22 PM
and one I bred--a Blue Diamond X Snakeskin then backcrossed to Blue Snakeskin--alot of time and this is the best one :D

02-01-2003, 11:23 PM
another pic next to a blue scorpion to illustrate the difference :)

Jeffery_Doty
02-01-2003, 11:50 PM
Joe,

Great looking discus! What will the next cross be, and what result are you hoping for?

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

Jeff
Oregon

Nate
02-02-2003, 01:13 AM
Mike's still selling? I thought he'd said he was retired from that?

Nate

DarkDiscus
02-02-2003, 01:27 AM
Joe,

A number of the breeders I have spoken to have no problem sending pics of their fish, breeding pairs etc. Of course pics are no guarantee, there is no guarantee. But those who take the time to talk to their prospective clients and develop a rapport and maybe e-mail a pic or two are those who really deserve the sale. Those are the guys I would buy from and I stand by my suggestion to get to know the breeder you will be dealing with before making the leap. If you take the time you can tell the good ones...

;D

John

02-02-2003, 01:58 AM
John, thanks for the tip! whether I deserve the sale or not because of the picture taking is one thing. You said the seller should take a picture of the EXACT fish they are to sell is another. I spend an inordinate amount of time with my customers and other schlocks customers attempting to help them with any problem they may have--but am undeserving of the sale? Who are these many breeders who have the time? Let them face the music!

I don't mean to be argumentative but get 800-1000 discus in your place and see how much time you have for picture taking. That should not be a prerequisite to earn a sale---It seems the people that are not involved at all in the transactions are trying to set the standards for otherwise honest businessmen. I let my fish and my customers do the talking. Joe ;D

02-02-2003, 02:08 AM
John, How about this turnaround? Why not certified buyers? I oftentimes am concerned about the care my fish will receive. If the buyer is known to be forgetful ( lack of husbandry ) or has personally killed alot of fish through the misuse of medications --maybe the breeders/ importers would like this information?

How about the buyer send ME pictures of the particular environment he has chosen for his prospective fish. Pictures of the exact filter and also it would be reassuring to me if he included some time elapsed photography of him doing water changes on his other tank with dates automatically inscribed in the corner. Oh and another photo of the PH levels and also a transcription of the husbandry. Thank You, --I may not be deserving---but I have damn good fish! Joe ;D

02-02-2003, 03:54 AM
WELL SAID JOE! ;)

02-02-2003, 08:51 AM
Well I think to an extent Joe definitely has a point. Lets say perhaps one certain incident in particular. Mike's recent. :(

A buyers certification reminds me of the German Shepherd world that we stepped into. Take our female for instance... We were turned down the 1st year we wanted a pup because of our circumstances at the time. Basically the breeder felt our Male was not mature enough for us to handle another... A year later we met the criteria, hence we now have Gretchen. At the time I was severely po'd but in the long run I was very glad she was picky. Taught us a lot....

Julz :)

BTW Joe.... You've got some GREAT FISH! Nice Photo's too....

Jason
02-02-2003, 03:15 PM
Let's not forget this thread!

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=5705

April
02-02-2003, 10:42 PM
joe....i kinda agree with you. i hope to do that to a tiny bit of degree when i sell some of my fry. as i have a small enough amount to choose . for now...anyhow..but think you can to a certain extent ask about their setup and routines....or if you know the people already. and at least tell them they need a group of fish and a separate tank to grow them out in etc.
or at least maybe sound them out a bit. as ....great fish can get in the wrong hands.then they post their pics and theyve gone downhill since they were sold. then...everyone says.....whoa....they got that from joe??? or whoever. i have a thread in beginners with two fish who were the same quality when shipped....and one didnt do well. i just adopted it back and hoping to get it well again.

02-03-2003, 12:00 AM
April, Thank You, I agree with what you are saying. I ask as many questions as a customer asks of me. I spend alot of time and call back to see how everything is doing. I spend hours on the phone and answering emails and PMs helping others. Much of my time is spent assiting with a problem fish purchased from a so-called breeder. I know a few of my compadres do as well while others don't want to know from nothing. :-X

A breeder/ importers' honesty and good reputation is what separates him or her from the ripoffs in the hobby. There is a plethora of vultures out there cropping up as I type! There are those none of us have ever heard of claiming nearly 40 years of experience in the Discus Hobby that did not exist. The only Amazon they visited was Amazon.com. We have seen by virtue of Mikes' post, that even hobbyists are scamming another hobbyist! :o The buyer saw a picture didn't he? I'm sure the seller answered questions as well ( We will refer to this a sExhibit A ) The buyer fell into a Comfort Zone and here we go! The seller ---was he deserving of the sale because he passed all the prerequisites?

I agree with what Jeep said in the aforementioned thread linked above. Pictures do not prove anything!!!!!!!!! Not a thing!!!!!!!! :smash: Pictures are many times used to lure the naive in ---then go for the jugular of thier quarry. It happens all the time! Look at the Auction Site on the net which will go unnamed. Pictures are freely stolen from others web sites, periodicals and posters ( all with the intent of grossly misleading the potential customer) If this was only for illustration purposes --then why was it not noted?

By answering questions and providing a photograph--then the seller somehow becomes "deserving" of ones' business? I do not understand this logic! Nowadays it is easy to scan someone elses photos and use them without their permission. One can even pretend to be an expert and lie about their experiences as well. Even if the pics that are "protected" from scanning--there is a way that was explained to me. I can't do it as I am technically challenged with any operation other than pushing a button or flipping a switch. Sometimes I can multi-task and do both at once! :-[

The integrity of a certain business person should not be predicated on the pics or being the Shell Answer man. If there is a serious concern to cull the thieves, then it can get done--but then that's another post! Joe ;)

02-03-2003, 12:09 AM
Bravo!!!

And yes that is another post ;)

Mike

DarkDiscus
02-03-2003, 09:40 AM
Joe,

As I said, there is no guarantee. However if a breeder (or, in your case, importer or reseller or whatever you would like to be called) takes the time to talk to me, send me a few pics of his recent batch of fry that I'm considering buying or otherwise encourages trust, then I'm that much more likely to give him a shot. That's why I selected who I bought from the first time I made my selection, after calling 5 breeders and importers - he spent the time it took to make me trust his dedication to the fish - plus he sent me pics of each of the 6 batches of fry I asked for. The good fish I received make me want to buy from him again and certainly add to me recommeding him to everyone who asks me. Could someone still be bogus with fake pics and end up being scam artist - sure! But it's less likely. One argument that you didn't make which is valid is that even if someone sends you pics of nice looking fry, it doesn't guarantee that the fish will grow up to be incredible specimens. The point is that the guy took the time needed to step up and show that he cares. If he can do that without the pics, so much the better. Pics are no magic ticket to finding a great breeder, but they can't hurt!

As for your thought about certified customers - I 100% agree. Breeders (etc.) put a TON of effort into their product and if they are not comfortable with a buyer being capable of keeping the fish well, you always have the right not to sell to them. There is nothing worse that some malcontent coming back at you with stories of bad fish when they weren't keeping up their end of the bargain. Absolutely. There are a lot more bad buyers than bad sellers!


John

02-03-2003, 03:28 PM
Joe & John,
I agree with what you have both have said. But it all comes down to the bottom line MONEY!! There is alot of people out there that want cheap fish. Who is anybody kidding. I see it all the time on other auction sites. Then you hear what a great deal they got. Yeah Right!! That good deal, is a fish that ain't worth the dang freight charge to get it from point A to B. Then they post a picture of that fish and that in turns opens up another bag of worms. Now all of a sudden they say, "We got ripped off". Now all of a sudden there is a lynch mob on the loose. Everyone is running around getting all PO'ed over a fish that no one knows the cost of. For some reason the buyer forgets to tell everyone that was a 15.00 fish.
The bottom line is that that the buyer should know and trust his/her breeder. When a person pays 15.00 for a fish then that is what they are getting.
You pay for what you get!!!

Now for the buyer:

Are you the buyer willing to put in the time, cost, and effort to raise these fish? Are you willing to change 50-100% water a day? Are you willing to feed them 4-8 times a day? Are you able to tell the early signs of sickness? (That comes with experience) Are you willing to feed the top quality foods to obtain max. growth? Are you willing to put in countless hours caring for these fish? Do you know where to go ask for help? Do you keep in touch with the breeder/importer?
Myself, I can answer yes to all these questions. For just general knowledge I go through a min. of 500 gallons of aged water a day. I treat these fish as they are my own kid.

You see these fish are pretty hardy if you provide them the correct enviorment and quality food they will grow up and give you countless hours of enjoyment.

I am sorry if this thread is to long and even if it goes off topic some. I take alot of pride and satsafaction (SP) in rasing a quality fish. And I do DEPEND on the breeder/importer to supply me with those quality & healthy fish to start with.

Miles :)

April
02-03-2003, 03:34 PM
good post miles. yes ..alot of time that is the case..they email the breeder saying...heh give me a deal. i myself would prefer no deals...and get their best fish.
i would also like to say with all the info...out here..i have seen alot of successful newbies who have done thier homework first..and asked alot of questions and have done very well with their first fish. its really nice to see.

02-03-2003, 05:00 PM
Miles,
Great Point! But You should of said if Your going to do all that for Your discus You might aswell Go for the BEST! Discus You can Get! Not a cheap deal with bad results in the end with still all the work! JMO

Cary gld!

NO PICS FOR YOU! :P

02-03-2003, 05:15 PM
Cary,
Wow, super looking spotted discus, and to think someone said that these are deadend genetically. Long live the leopards.

02-03-2003, 05:20 PM
Cary,
Dang I knew I forgot something. I might add that is a FINE picture you posted. To give some people a little insite that Red Spotted Green DOES NOT FALL UNDER CHEAP!!

Miles :)
P.S.
I asked Cary what it was. :)

02-03-2003, 06:59 PM
Runner,

Sorry RSG not a dead end lep LOL!

Dennis_Hardenburge
02-03-2003, 08:11 PM
Nice fish Cary
Better than a Lep
Dennis

02-03-2003, 08:46 PM
Cary,
Sorry, but where does leps come from if not deadend rsgs...lol. Maybe I should ask, what do you cross your rsgs to get leps? lol.

02-03-2003, 08:58 PM
Beautiful Discus, are they from your stock? How old and how big before they started to show color?

Mike

02-03-2003, 09:35 PM
Hi Runner,
I left You a message to call Me so I can help You understand! 8)
Or You could leave Your # and I'll call You!
Either way I do understand were Your Comeing from but its old news now and am tired of beating a dead horse. One thing I will bring up is If You would of read My post correctly you would of seen were I said Most Leps are Deadend! Not all.

If I needed to buy leps then I would only trust 2 sources THATS IT!
But at the time this is not needed cuz am working on my own! they will grow big and strong and live long healthy lifes.
They may go as far as f5 but never f16s ;D


THANKS Mike,
Ya! those are the guys I raised up in the 90Gal from eggs. The only bad thing with this gld strain is they do not color up untill they hit 4"+


Thanks Dennis ;D

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

Dennis_Hardenburge
02-03-2003, 09:40 PM
Cary
So whats wroung with not coloring up untill they are young adults.
Thats the way it is susposse to be.
Good things are worth waiting for
Dennis

02-03-2003, 09:44 PM
I know Dennis,
I agree But try telling that to the crowd :P

02-03-2003, 09:52 PM
I agree with you both. I can wait for color too.... And Cary I remember those ;)

muddy brown but very round.... but how you like me now discus. ;D ;D ;D

I agree with the crowd bit too... Show me the color who cares what it takes will just turn our heads to the truth and be happy with our dayglo discus. :-X :-X :-X

Mike

fcdiscus
02-03-2003, 09:54 PM
;D ;D

02-03-2003, 10:17 PM
Cary,
I agree, let sleeping dogs lie, no sense bringging up old stuff. Your rsgs are great looking fish, and I really mean it. Take care and god bless.
Maybe someday when you get frys, I'll get some from you, but for now, I'll just play with my f16s..lol.

02-03-2003, 11:35 PM
Runner LOL!

Thanks And god bless you To! ;D

Here are some leo pics from My trusted source. These I hope to cross into My rsg line!
TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

02-03-2003, 11:36 PM
;)

02-03-2003, 11:37 PM
;)

02-03-2003, 11:52 PM
John, Thanks! That was the post I knew you were capable of submitting ;D

Miles, Excellentia!!!!!!!!!!! You nailed it!!! any fish that would go under the heading of bargain--go to the big fish tank in the sky since I had several bad experiences with trying to be a nice guy!

From time to time, there are fish that in my opinion that just don't cut it. I used to have my B and C Grade and even free discus tanks. When a newcomer to the hobby walked in and asked if I had any bargain fish for them to try or I sensed an uneasiness about them-I suggested the bargain fish or the free ones. This way they could get their feet wet without the financial pitfall. I received phone calls or emails questioning the quality of my fish and my integrity because so and so paid "good money" and received a B grade fish. It mattered none when I responded the fish was given away free or at a nominal price. I no longer do this as it is far too problematic than it's worth! So in the Kelvinator they go!

Joe :-\

fcdiscus
02-04-2003, 12:09 AM
Put me in line for some of those crosses Cary!
OK Joe! No more Mr. Nice Guy! ;D Frank

02-04-2003, 12:10 AM
Joe,
Thanks !

Miles :)

TnMark
02-04-2003, 12:34 AM
I don't think it's a good idea to set up a we (the great, perfect breeders) versus them (incompetant, stupid, unable to handle rudimentry fish husbandry-(no not marriage LOL)) mentality. Although I find it interesting and enlightening to see what the breeders are saying, and have learned a lot in this thread, it is not a good practice for business people to trash their customers to their face. Most sucessful business people tell of their customers stupidity behind their backs.

02-04-2003, 01:29 AM
TnMark,
I understand (I think) what you are saying. But it is not that way. Neither one can survive without the other.

Miles

wildthing
02-06-2003, 10:16 AM
The main thing certification should require is that the certified person has been in buisness for a minimum of (X) years with a minimum of (X) tanks &/or breeding pairs.
This will prove experience & give newer entrants to the market something to aspire to.


just a thought

DW

April
02-09-2003, 05:07 AM
Cary.....nice leopards....why do you have flying hydro sponges all over the tank? LOL. is that how their meant to be? here ive been trying to keep mine down and neatly placed in a corner. hmmmmm

Richman
02-09-2003, 11:39 AM
Wildthing,

Can't agree with you on the years of experience and number of tanks thing. That doesn't prove anything. Quality fish and service over a period of time is the only thing. You guys who do this on a regular basis are the ones who build up trust and quality in the hobby and industry.
What I mean is this: There is such thing as 40 years experience --- and there is such thing as 1 year experience 40 times. Before anyone uses an expression of time to qualify their ability or value, they should know the difference. I think we have all seen this truth supported by some things that have happened on this board during the past year. Time and tanks are only an opportunity.

Guys like Cary and Mike (and now Joe), have been very instrumental in helping me no matter who I buy fish from, and I will always be grateful. There are others who have been around for a long time who just seem to stir up a lot of garbage. Or just bring garbage into the hobby. ;)

02-09-2003, 12:19 PM
Who Needs help?


SOMEONE NEED HELP?


I can leap large buildings in a singel bound to save a DISCUS!
HEE..HEE...HEE

02-09-2003, 12:26 PM
Or a very large Stadium ;)

brewmaster15
02-09-2003, 12:54 PM
......

02-09-2003, 12:57 PM
You Guys are Crazy.....

April
02-09-2003, 01:05 PM
LOL. think its a prerequisite to being a discus person?

02-09-2003, 01:15 PM
What was I thinking.... Were all Crazy


Mike

02-09-2003, 01:15 PM
OMG BREW LMAOPIMP!!!!! :spit: :spit: :spit: :spit: :spit: :spit: :spit: :angel:

brewmaster15
02-09-2003, 01:39 PM
yep, Mike Certified insane is what I am.... and I love every minute of it! ;)

Cary,
:)

-al

fcdiscus
02-09-2003, 02:29 PM
;D ;D Does that stadium say Crappola on the front gate? Frank :o

Don_Lee
02-09-2003, 02:46 PM
LOL-SuperCary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :) 8) :o

Don ;D

02-09-2003, 03:46 PM
Frank LoL!


The Big D yes crapola! ;D

SLY
02-10-2003, 01:07 PM
LMAO super hero hahaahhaahaha

Jeff
02-10-2003, 01:25 PM
Humm..... the eyes are a little small, but overall a nice cross. ;D

02-10-2003, 01:46 PM
Come on Jeff.. No need to hide the truth we both know its cull.... he he he :P

Mike

02-10-2003, 09:36 PM
Mike, your'e right look at the hole in the head, popeye, short gill plates---That's no fluke! Joe ;)

SLY
02-10-2003, 09:52 PM
hey so they say discus have moustage is true. ;D ;D

lovdiscus
02-18-2003, 09:29 AM
Just curious....what is a certified breeder? Do we get papers or something, like breeding dogs? LOL...
Seriously, how do you become "certified" or is there such a thing?
I breed show Bettas, angelfish and Discus...am I certified?
Just curious. I just began a website and hope to sell some.
So, I want to make sure I am doing the selling correctly.

Thanks...
Donna

Chris-C
02-18-2003, 07:32 PM
The bar for certification has been raised!!!!!!
Please refer to Beths post on the general discus page with regards to the new discus she received ;D ;D ;D

Chris

Carol_Roberts
02-18-2003, 07:59 PM
DAAH is trying to set up some type of program. Thre is no governing body for discus like the AKC for dogs - so no governing group to oversee certification

DIZ
02-18-2003, 10:18 PM
I think word of mouth is the best we have right now But someone such set up something to help out buyers
DIZ