A wild Idea!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,

Since theres such a strong interest in wilds these days, maybe we could build a "Wild " Database here. Everyone out there with Wild Discus, post pics here, and if you know what location /river, etc they come from, post that as well. If you don't know where they came , post it as location unknown and maybe the rest of the board can help figure out where it might be from. I know for a fact that there are alot of members here with wilds so lets see what we can come up with.

Once we have the New Site Library up and running I'll try to thumb nail index them as a reference.


Please only post pictures of your own fish, and respect the copyrights of other sites.

What do you think?

-al

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I'll bite.
Kaijuara

[Aquatic_Design]

Blue Faced Heckel (location unknown)

[gary1218]

Ooooooooooooooo Dennis, NICE wild discus to start with. Any chance you have a spawning pair of those?

GARY

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Here is another Kaijuara
Even though they come from a remote isolated area they vary some what.

Gary
I purchased five of the kaijuara and have had them less than a month so they are no where near colored out yet.
I do exspect at least one pair as there is some flirting going on.
Dennis

[gary1218]

EXCEPTIONAL color Dennis, AND very nice body shape for wilds. Keep me in the back of your mind WHEN, not IF ;D, you get a pair.

GARY

PS Where are you located?

This is a solid red Curipera male.
Jimmy

A young Curipera Male with straitions

Female Curipera.

[Jeffery_Doty]

Brown discus, of unknown origin.

Jeff
Oregon

[Jeffery_Doty]

Another brown, unknow origin.

Jeff
Oregon

A pair of Madeira Heckel natural cross.

[Ramon Anastacio]

Very nice Dennis! They are coloring up nicely.

Here's one more Kaijuara.

Ramon

[Ramon Anastacio]

Jatapu - female on the left, striated fish on the right is the male.

[Francisco_Borrero]

blue, unknown location. People have suggested Manacapuru

[Francisco_Borrero]

...unknown location. Oliver suggested that looks like heckels from Abacaxis

[Francisco_Borrero]

Unknown location. Several people have suggested Nhamunda, and it does look like their pics

[Francisco_Borrero]

unknown location. Oliver suggested Mari-Mari and it does look like some in his web site.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Green discus, unknown location, have been suggested Nanay

Wild Brown with wrigglers. Unknown origin.
Jimmy.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Plain green, unspotted. Unknown location, Nanay?

[Francisco_Borrero]

"Blue heckel", unknown location.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Blue discus, Location Curipera, 23days after being home.
Male on left, female right.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: Francisco, love that pair!! & pray tell, why are the Curipera, one reddish, one gold, called blue?? Just wondering, Dottie ::) ::) ::)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi Dottie:
To the question of "what makes them blue when one is red and one gold...?", there is a bad, multiple-part answer. Bad because it brings us to what is a blue, a brown, a green, and there are only "concepts" that work better with some specimens than others. Particularly when it comes to blues and browns.
Hopefully people with more expertise will shime in here, but my understanding/interpretation is that in addition to the two species (S.discus [heckel] and S. aequifasciata [all other wilds]), there are within each geographical variations in color, and these historically have been used to define the "green, blue and brown", which has been a useful squeme, albeit incomplete and perhaps not based on taxonomical truths. But there is substantial overlap, and exchange, in addition to individual variability. The same, although pehaps less dramatically so, can be said of S. discus, with the "blue, red" heckels.

Curiperas are considered blues, but I agree that they are much alike browns. Mines have not colored up to very red yet, but are getting there.

Cheers, Francisco.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: Thanks for the explanation Francisco, guess I'll just hafta keep trying to ever get it straight in my mind. Whatever, they are beauties. The real dark reds that I have seen on this forum have intrigued me, & they may be the only other color/type that I would seek out, but I do also like the wild golds. Always something to strive for, yes???? Dottie ;D ;D

[aquatechnics]

Hi,

Here are some of my personal collection.

Nanay RSGs .... ;D

Alberto

[aquatechnics]

... another Nanay RSG

[aquatechnics]

Peruvian Green from the Nanay River in Perú ......;D
Alberto

[aquatechnics]

Some Madeiras....

[gary1218]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAWESOME Alberto.

GARY

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: OOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! Alberto, I'm in love again!! All great fish, but those 2 gold Nanays are especially AWESOME!!! & Madeiras too?????WOW!! What great color, gorgeous fish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Would I love to see those for real!! Oh well, Dottie ::) ::) ::)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Those are some awesome fish Alberto. It is too bad that I have to wait until next year for any new acquisitions. Thanks for sharing. Keep up the good work.
Cheers, Francisco.

[aquatechnics]

Thanks Gary, Dottie and Francisco for your comments!

Francisco, your Curiperas look great! I would love to have a pair like that!! By the way, you are moving soon, right? Let me know if they will need a new house too.... ;D

Alberto

PS: In your previous pics (2 greens), why do you think they are Nanays?

[Ralph]

Our next interview about Amazonian biotopes is going to be with Alberto, he is going to discuss his time on the Rio Nanay, where those amazing Red Spotted Greens come from. It will be posted later this week in the Show Tanks and Biotope Section, complete with photos.

Thanks Alberto!

[brewmaster15]

Alberto,
Thanks for posting those beautiful Pictures. Let me know if you ever need a new home for Them as well. ;)

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. You all have some really nice fish.

My contributions... Heres some wild greens... collected at wholesalers in my area....They may not be the highest quality specimens but they breed very well for me, and have given me some very beautiful fry from crossing them to Domestics....

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/7D/CA/16298877-1da1-020A018C-.jpg

http://a0.cpimg.com/image/C6/AB/8314310-2554-02000183-.jpg

and a Red spotted Green....
http://a1.cpimg.com/image/A9/CB/16298921-1856-020A018C-.jpg

-al

[April]

ok heres some of mine. not known locations. they all came from our lfs. who in turn got them from ornamentals in florida. they all say the meekum collecting station .
heres the heckel.

[April]

herse a group shot.

[April]

heres the royal green i believe it is.....

[April]

heres the royal blue i got. but she shows alot more red now...than she used to. the avatar in my posts is the same fish when i got her. shes changed alot.

[April]

heres the bigger pic of the heckel.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Al, those are some very nice fish, and I know for a fact you have made great use of them. I wish I could be doing what you can with yours. Perhaps sometime you could do some of that with mines... get my drift? did you get my response to your IM ?

April, those are some beautiful fish. All of them. I particularly like the group shot. Regarding the Royal Blue change of color, I love it in either suit, but wonder if you could bring back some of the blue, if you wanted, by using some blue-enhancing food. The fish looks very healthy, but there must be something in the diet that does not intensify the blue, and does the red, which may be related to the diet in the wild. It is like some of the heckel cabeza-azul tales, for whom the face fades after some time in captivity.

Alberto: Regarding the two green discus I showed, I don't know the origin. The only reason I said Nanay (with question marks) is because Oliver suggested that in his opinnion they may be. I don't know, and neither does he. The 2 fish look very different, although they are definitely both green, non-spotted. Would you have a guess/opinnion as to what location they may look-like ? If anybody is familiar with the Nanay and its discus...that'll be you! Would you have guesses/opinnions as to origin of any of my other fish ? Unfortunately I don't know location for any, as with the exception of the Curipera, they have all been LFS/ bozo's tanks rescues.
Yes, I am moving sometime this summer (probably early July) and just the idea of it is killing me. I still haven't got a job lined up...but am working on it.

Cheers, Francisco.


p.s. Great job Ralph and Alberto for agreeing on one of those biotope/interview deals. I am very much looking forward to it!!!!

[Francisco_Borrero]

Okay, I couldn't resist. The Curipera's were looking a lot better than in the picture I showed. So this is a week later, or a total of 1 month minus 1 day since arrival. Please don't mind the repetition. Female at left, male at right. They act like a pair and are kissy-kissy all the time, but so far it is all talk.
Cheers, Francisco.

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Francisco
How could we mind repetition
Beautiful fish and picture
They'll only get better
Dennis

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Curipera female
Francisco this female has been kissy- kissy with a domestic male for almost a month
Dennis

[April]

dennis get those fish going. their spectacular.
really....every single wild i think are. .....and the only breeder is mother nature. so no one is at fault. thats the part i like about them.
Francisco. i think your right...but then they are all togeather...so then....my greens etc will turn more green or blue? i notice right now my wild greens are very red also. i feed mostly blackworms. and a bit of onf1. its ok....either way i like the fish.

[Discus_Forever]

OK.....I love Dennis' most recent pic of his Curipera female. A gorgeous fish, but I'm confused about something that Oliver said (or at least my understanding) about fish from Curipera. That these fish were isolated and not much "influenced" by other strains and therefore good for breeding. This particular fish--as well as others from the Alenquer/Curipera area in pics from other websites listed in the new section on wilds at DAAH--seem to have a pronounced middle stress bar suggesting some Heckel blood.

Do any of you see this also? Or am I nuts?

[Francisco_Borrero]

Dennis, that is a one spectacular fish ! I am sure she'll do the real thing soon.

April. I agree that when they are all together it is impossible to "spot-feed". Mines are all together too except for the Curipera pair. One thing I do is that in the am feeding I alternate various pellets, and some mornings the rotation calls for a 50/50 mix of Azoo "red and blue enhancing pellets". It may be my imagination but I believe it helps. For instance I think that my Nhamunda (?real location?) heckel has become more and more blue, and continues to intensify its orange as well (see picture in page 2 of this thread). I also have a blue that looks like a Madeira (don't want to show it yet, as I am trying to "fix it"), where the body is very red, but the fins have as of late become a very vibrant blue. The point is that it is not impossible to intensify both colors at the same time, even in individual fish. You have some gorgeous fish!

Terry. Those "dominant" stress bars do not necessarily mean a heckel component. Notice they are no wider than the rest, and the ones thru the eye and the caudal peduncle are no darker than normal. It is usually the 5th and 6th bars that change in intensity within individual fish and at different times, showing dominance, happiness, submission, feeling like spawning, etc. Most discus have some ability to do this, but so far (in my mind) Curiperas seem to be the masters of change or "chamaeleons". In them and other varieties, the bars can also "reverse" as in a negative photo, with the bars being at times the lightest areas of the fish. Sometimes heckels do that too, pareticularly when scared. I have 2 Manacapuru (probable location?) that have dominant 5th bars (some times), and I thought at first there was some heckel to them...then realized they are just dominant fish and the intensity comes and goes.
But then there are the real crosses that make it all somewhat confusing. If you look at JimmyL's picture of the beautiful wild Madeira/heckel cross, then that is not something having to do with mood, but mixed genes.

Beautiful fish everybody. Thanks for the treat !!!
Cheers, Francisco.

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Terry
Good question
My last picture the flash actually washed out the picture a bit, the fish is much redder and the fifth bar is very black.
I have seen a dominate bar in a lot of different strains of wilds, I guess I would have to ask why do we think this is strictly a heckle trait, I personally don't think so.
Dennis

[Jason]

Francisco if you really want to see the colours on your heckels intensify lower the ph a bit more and feed alot of insects crickets, beetles etc. :thumbsup:

[brewmaster15]

Hi Francisco!
I did get that reply, and Brewmaster's Hotel Discus is ready for you when you need it! Who knows, you may wind up leaving with more fish than you had when you checked in! ;) ;D
Take care, and keep me posted,
-al

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Al
Good for you
What is this Brewmasters Hotel are you sure it isn't Brewmasters Breeding Program

Agree with Jason Heckels really shine in the lower PH, never tried the bugs though.
Dennis

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dennis,
Someday I might call it a breeding program. For now I guess , hobby, will do ;)

The Brewmaster's Hotel is a non profit half-way house for Discus whose owners are in transit. We offer a safe and supportive environment, and nuture them as if they were our own until the owners can take them again. :)

-al

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Al
You are a great guy.
I have three pair of curipera in thier own tanks and one pair still in a community tank, I just thought I could send the extra pair to your hotel and you could return a few dozen of thier fry.
Dennis

[Francisco_Borrero]

Well Al, thanks !! I don't feel that I quite invited myself completely to the hotel, as you had already hinted it...wink, wink. We will need to consider what is involved.
We will see how things develop, and it is now more important for you and yours to make it our way (Sharon, MA)for a visit/girls play day, during which you and I can look at things and think of a strategy. I don't want to overextend the welcome to the hotel, but who could say no to such an offer. Of course, no hotel is free and there are different "payment plans", a topic we must discuss.

In the interest of going back to the original purpose of this thread (looking at various "varieties, types, species or subspecies of wild discus from various locations, as well as some with no known location, so we can learn possible sources), I am putting this map. This map was prepared by Oliver Lucanus and shows the distribution of confirmed collection sites for blue, brown, green and heckel discus. Oliver posted this in DAAH, and my understanding is that it does not include records published and republished in books or hearsay, but actual collection data from Oliver's own experience. I wish one day we could have a map like this that includes all confirmed data in existence, but we must realize that even some "known sources" may be questionable.

The conventions are:
BLUE----- blue discus
GREEN-----green discus
BROWN----brown discus
YELLOW---heckel discus (S.discus)

I am afraid it came out too small for being useful. Sorry. The original is a GIF file, and then making it less than 85kb made it tiny. Hopefully some one can see it. I barely can... but regional distribution of color dots is apparent, which is the intent.
Cheers, Francisco.

Wow this is such a GREAT thread. Such useful information and all the Pics have left me yearning for more wilds!!!...

Unfortunately my female is all I have to offer. I can only speculate that she is a Green. Not sure of her origin as well... :(

another

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi Julz:

Beautiful fish. As we have discussed, others may have more experience/trained eye/seen more fish than I, but I believe your fish is not a green. To me, it looks like a nice blue, like the Manacapuru ones, but of course it could be from somewhere else. It also looks like a relatively young fish, if I was to take a guess, not much above 2 years old. The distinction of blues and browns is still unclear to me (and to many people as well) as there seem to be too many exceptions to the published "rules", so someone (including myself) could say it is a brown. My better guess is a blue. Did someone tell you is a green ? What makes you think is a green ? How long have you had it, and has it grown while under your care (= Is it indeed a relatively young fish)?

Nice fishy, happy looking. Congratulations on your basement set-up, including beautiful orchids and bromeliads, another of my loves. Plus very efficient water systems. I commented about it in another thread by you.
Thanks for sharing, Francisco.

[fishfarm]

Julz, I'd call it a blue also, No black bar around the fins to be a green and too much blue to be a brown. Ken

[paulmat]

O.K.
Here are some of my wilds
1 st. my heckles

[paulmat]

Heres a Wild RSG

[paulmat]

Wild Green/Leopard pair

[paulmat]

heres the male

[paulmat]

Another wild green

[paulmat]

One more heckle shot

[paulmat]

I sure love my wilds

Paul :guitarist:

[paulmat]

My newest

[Francisco_Borrero]

Beautiful fish Paul !!! That Leopard x RSG pair sure looks awesome and should throw out some gorgeous fish...I would guess. Does anybody know any better ?
The heckels look nice, but it seems the pictures lack a little light. Or do you have a reddish bulb to them ? Do you know locations for any of those fish ???
I love the RSG's. I don't have any but I bet I will one day.
Thanks for sharing. Francisco.

[paulmat]

Francisco
Yeah the light on the Heckles is dim.
Im not sure of the point of origin on my fish.
They didn't have thier passports stamped ;)
Most were aquired from my lfs,go figure.

Paul :guitarist:

[JeffreyRichard]

Paul ... have your Leopard/Green pair spawned yet? I was wondering what they throw ... I have the same pair I'm trying to get a spawn from.

Jeff Richard

[paulmat]

Jeff
They have spawned a few times w/o wigglers yet.
The others haven't hatched because the water perameters were off, but now they are just right so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for this batch,it's day 2 and they look good as you can see in that pic. :thumbsup:

Paul :guitarist:

Francisco...

the LFS told me she was a Green/Brown. But she was not as colorful at the time I can only presume. I have her sibling as well (in the 72 bow) and he/she (?) has a lot more red in both fins. The black bar as the others say is present the majority of the time but is not as clear in that pic. They both do have a lot of blue in them. Age? not sure as I purchased them (roughly the same size only thinner and not quite as colorful) at an LFS in May02. (Paid only 50$ ea too!!! 8))

Thanks again on the setup comments. You need to revisit the tour thread as there is something in there for you....

So with everyone's response on my female (She's a great Momma BTW, worried me at first tho) I will from now on call her a "Blue".... Thank you. :)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Julz:

About green/brown. With all due respect, the LFS doesn't know what it (they) are talking about. The fish is not a green, it is a blue.
Regarding the outer black ring deal around the circunference, there is much to be said, but it actually means little. Yes, many (most ?) greens have it and it is more marked than in other varieties. But some blue have it (very evident in Curipera and others), and some do to a lesser extent (Manacapuru). Browns also may or not have it. So again, a lot to talk about....and little meaning to it. On the other hand the color of the anal fin in green fish is (to me) the most telling part, as well as the background color, and the extent blue streaks on the front of blues and brown. In fact, it is easier to recognize green fish from the rest, than it is to explain it. On the other hand, recognizing blues and browns....in my mind, that is a lot less categoric. I know however that someone like David Webber or Oliver may be able to distinguish and teach us to distinguish those very well. The books....? the majority are all screwed up, and the blue and brown terms seem to be used almost interchangeably, even if they claim not to.
I just got a copy of Degen's wild caught discus book. Beautiful. Is it useful for solving these type of problems ?
errr....a little....or not. Axelrod's book?...same. Silva and Kotlar?.....same. Wattley's book....? same. I for one cannot find a satisfactory differentiation in any of them...yet.

Francisco......

I LOVE IT! (note the blue)

Thanks so much. So educational!...... :)

[Jason]

Purus yellow
http://images.snapfish.com/3367664323232%7Ffp66%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3B78%3D855%3Dx roqdf%3E232335248%3C8%3B4ot1lsi

[Jason]

or maybe its a blue, I dunno, I've got it paired with an F2 Xingu golden, they spawned once but were unsucessfull(comunity tank), brown or blue? I don't care as long as some of the fry are yellow!

I too am very anxious to see how her fry turn out. She is paired with the Blue SS. It appears the fry are roughly 50/50... Infact they just spawned again last night. I sure got some great pics of the event... Will see tho, as they are in 100% tap... :)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Beautiful fish Jason !

I would also call that a blue, despite the yellow background. A lot of "varieties" may have yellowish/golden backgrounds, but "yellow" is not one of the 3 recognized "types" -green, blue, brown- (so far considered subspecies of S. aequifasciata until new arguments are widely embraced and a new system proposed and accepted). The Purus river appears close to the border of the "territories of distribution of blue and green discus", but I would not call yours a mixed specimen but a blue (see Oliver's map and/or an Atlas).
The Xingu golden you refer to as the mate, is in all likelihood a brown discus, simply because the Rio Xingu and its confluence with Rio Amazonas are dead center in "brown discus territory". Blues and greens are just too far away.
I would imagine very attractive fish could be produced in that mix, but I don't know about that stuff.
The "yellow" color is also one that can be modified by diet. Some green fish are very yellow (as well as some blues and browns), are can often go towards red, copper (see Al's or my greens), or brownish, dfepending on diet/conditions.

I agree that the heckels' coloration is likely to become more vibrant in low pH and a diet including insects as you advised. I am not providing a low pH currenly (I am at 7-7.4), but I do have relatively soft, peat treated water and it seems to help. I don't feed many insects, but here and there do add insect larvae (mealworms, bloodworms, weebil worms, etc) plus earthworms, mysids, California BW, and the morning pellets. I have noticed that the outer "skin" of insect larvae (worms) is not digested by the discus, as it passes undigested thru their systems and floats in the water afterwards. That "wskin" is mostly kitin, albeit still transparent. The inside of the insect-worms is fully diggested. Insect larvae in general are very good food but very fatty and I use them sparingly. Flies may be a better option but I don't use them at this time. Mosquito larvae is too risky (clean cultures to be trusted are hard to find).

Thanks and cheers, Francisco.

[Jason]

Francisco I honestly don't think there is any real difference between blues, browns, and greens.

I can go too 3 different rivers within an hours driving distance from my house and catch a different color variety of trout in each one, genetecly they would all be the same and they could produce fertile offspring if bred to each other.

My theory on the whole thing is that one point in time the amazon river wasn't a split up as it is today.
there was probably only one type of discus(the heckel) over time the geography changed and the discus had to adapt to different conditions giving rise too the different populations and color varieties. with browns and blues being closer related than greens(west).

but that's what I think anyone else have any other ideas?

I feel everyone should incorporate bugs into their fishes diets, just watch some discus in a sand bottom tank using their gills and mouths like a bellows looking for food.

I would'nt worry about the "chitin" Francisco, I imagine the shrimps and bugs in the amazon would have really thick shells to survive in the acid water.

wich brings up another point, my discus definately grow faster with calcium added to the water and diet, where are they getting this calcium in the wild with a gh of 1 or 2?? ???
just my thoughts, with no education to support them :)

thanks for the compliment Francisco, that fish was a gift from a very nice person :)

your fish look fantastic too! :thumbsup:

[fishfarm]

brown heckel from LFS, starting to fatten up!

[fishfarm]

Nice bold Heckel bar on this fish. LFS refugee also!

[fishfarm]

I've had these two guy for two days, 8 inch fish! From BOXLOTFISH.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi all :


Ken. I love those heckels. I like a lot heckel_3 (the second), with the very bold 5th bar. The two large ones from boxlotfish are beautiful and should be magnificent when feeling confortable. Thanks for sharing.

Jason. Thanks for offering counter views to the opinnions I expressed. I agree with some -but not all-, and hopefully other people can offer their own views, knowledge and experience for the gain of us all.

1- I agree that we should all try include "bugs" in their diet. I give quite a few actually. I don't "worry" about the chitin. I was just pointing out that it seems not to be diggested/utilized at all. The rest of the bug is. And live foods are just plain good, if we can procure uncontaminated ones.

2- The amazon region has indeed changed substantially during geological time, and there is good evidence to some of that. In fact, some interpretations suggest that the actual Rio Amazonas used to flow in a different direction than what it does now. Wow, that's a change! (that does not include the entire drainage system, nor the various rivers that eventually become the Amazonas (Maranhon, etc.). So sure, things have not been the same all along, and no doubt this has affected biogeography, distributions, speciation processes, etc.

3- About the blue, brown, green deal. It is a fact that the understanding of the taxonomic and phylogenetic relationships between the various "types" of wild Symphysodon species is far from clear. However, there is strong evidence for two distinct species (biological species concept), namely S. discus (heckel) and S. aequifasciata (all others). These two full species do exhibit the capability of hybridization, and this is observed both in captivity and in the wild.
S. aequifasciata: Although incomplete understanding exists, there do appear to exist 3 types (blue, brown and green), but the evolutionary/taxonomic/genetic distance between these is still not fully understood. They are fully able to interbreed and can/do in the wild, except that some "types" never do because they do not coexist in the wild. But their differences are present, are relatively discreet (with exceptions and intergradations=clines), and are genetically fixed since they are inherited by the offspring.
That means, brown discus when mated DO NOT produce green discus or viceversa. Whether or not we fully understand the evolutionary meaning of what is a blue, a brown or a green (species, subspecies, varieties, types, sports, etc.), has little to do with whether they are real. They are real. There may even be more (or less) to it, we just don't know because no sufficient systematic study has been carried out.
I personally do not know completely how to differentiate among the three types of S. aequifasciata, but find it relatively easy to distinguish greens from blues and browns. I often make mistakes with browns and blues, and believe that I actually have seen very few browns. Most of what I have seen being called brown, are actually blue fish. I have made this mistake with 2 of my own fish, until I was corrected, which I appreciated.
I suggest again that it would be very nice if people with much more experience (David W., Oliver, L., others?) would help us in understanding more and differentiate between blues and browns.
4- The example with the trout is interesting but does not help us solve this puzzle. Salmonid fish, and specifically several species of trout have been among the most artificially distributed fishes on earth. We have carried them to places they were never before, or introduced previously non-existing varieties into places where other varieties existed. Further, we have created hybrids and then released them i the wild and have eliminated them from some of their original distribution zones. So how the trout in one place looks like is just not too informative. No such thing has been done with discus yet (fortunately) so the discus thing is an entirely different story.

Thanks and cheers, Francisco.

[Jason]

thank's Francisco that was well put,

Mike or Rod may be able to attest to this, when I've crossed wild greens browns and blues to other wild types(even from the same importer purchased at the same time) the offspring were very variable, browns throwing blues and greens throwing browns.

what do you think causes that variance in the offspring?

[Ralph]

Hi Francisco, the biologist in you is really coming out, great posts!
My main criticism of the present system of nomeclature is it's lack of usefulness. The whole idea of a naming system is to fascilitate communications, when someone says they have a blue discus, it should communicate an image to everyone. But like you said, each type has such a wide range of variation, that it is almost worthless to name it in the first place. And I would include greens in the confusion, I've seen blues that I would have bet money that they were greens. And they vary in the basics such as their base colors! I'm beginning to think more and more like Jason, that they are really just one species (excluding Heckels) and the names we have come up with are somewhat arbitrary in real usage (such as at your LFS). And if we, as owners, can't even agree, then more work needs to be done, and perhaps even a different system used.

Jason, if I remember my genetics right, you can get blues from greens for example. A fish, though it looks say like a green, can carry genes to produce even 75% blues for example (if it breeds with a blue).

[wildthing]

So you like heckels?
:)
I like them too

[fishfarm]

Wild browns, I call honey browns due to yellow base color, From Columbia. Lots of my friends got some of these from me to cross back with their golds to improve the color, We'll see what they get within the next year. I ordered 5 more boxes of these so I could have some. I sold all of the first batch. ;D

[fishfarm]

Forgot to add the picture :P

[fishfarm]

wild greens from Peru, To me a green has the black edge to the fins, little to no blue striaitons and if they have red spots the exported charges you twice as much for fish from the same river. ???

[Michael]

Hi , Ken i bought some of those wild "browns" but if they are from Colombia humm i doubt they are true browns, they are green discus!!! ;D

[Michael]

ohhh the pic

[Jason]

nice fish...... LOL now I'm really confused, I've had w/c browns like Ken's and Michaels, some developed blue forehead stripes when mature, some did not.

some of the resulting offspring looked like greens, no red spots but looked more like a green discus than the parents, now I know the brown and green discus range doesn't overlap, so how does that happen?

and if David or Oliver are reading what does a discus eat in the wild to get enough calcium for proper developement?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jason,
Thats a great question. I'll leave it to the to others to give you a concrete answer. My personal speculations....

Fish can absorb calcium and other minerals directly thru their gills, so even though there is little carbonate hardness to their water, whatever is there could be absorbed and utilized.

small fish and amphibian skeletal material, as well as mollusks and their shells ( think about the blowing of food off the rivers bottoms)

And algae and plant materials. Vegetative matter sequesters calcium, during flood seasons this would be very abundant.

Insects that fall in the water and earthworms would also sequester calcium.


jmo,
al

[fishfarm]

Hi Michael, I do not know the natural range of the different color types. My Columbia supplier sells browns and blues, The greens I get from Peru are very different from the Browns, The body shape is even different, the Greens are more "long" with the browns more round without the black edgeing around the fins.
May just be geographical differences. They all come in healthy and eating right away. Looks like yours are doing good, It'd be interesting to see if when they breed if they turn out some green fry like Jason said his did. I plan to keep a group from this batch and use as breeders to cross with some of my domestic fish. I'll keep one wild pair and see. :)

[Francisco_Borrero]

Very nice fish David W., Ken and Michael.

Ken :
the greens are clearly greens in my opinnion, although in the picture only one complete fish is seen, the rest we only see portions of fish.

Ken and Michael:
First of all, it is not Columbia but Colombia. There are several Columbia's, one in Canada, another including the city of Washington, the capital of South Carolina, a river, and more. No big deal, but since that is my country, I can't avoid noticing it.

About the browns from Colombia: All the fish shown in the pictures above are very young fish, with little or no development of color in the fins. I cannot tell. Perhaps someone else can. It would be very nice to see more detailed pictures of fishes like that, but full grown specimens that can be evaluated. By the distribution maps, there are not suppossed to be browns in Colombia nor Peru, nor anywhere close, unless introduced there. I know that Alberto from Aquatechnics shows some Nanay Browns, that look somewhat different from many greens, but I don't believe they are browns. They are greens or something very close to that. Again, hopefully someone with actual field knowledge and more experience would help us shed light into these apparent inconsistencies.

WildThing (David W.) : Beautiful heckels. I love that fish on the left !! Very colorful, with red and blue and yellow.... I like it's shape too. Very nice! Where is that fish from ??? The other one is also beautiful, looks to me like a nice Unini ?? Where is it from ?
Could you help us clarify a bit the distinction (distribution and external appearance) of blue and brown discus? Could you please address the issue of the Colombian brown fish ? Could you comment/add to Oliver's map posted above? We would really enjoy and benefit from that.

Jason: I fully agree with all of the likely sources of calcium (and phosphorous plus other minerals) suggested by Al. My guess is that possibly the main sources are diet (arthropoda, fishes, molluscs, and both insect-worms and other worms), and what little is in the water. There probably is also some remineralized calcium (precipitate) in the mulm at the bottom, and fish pick at that. Some algae (even freshwater) include not-insignificant calcium content. In my house, they get it from live food, but also components of my beefheart (minced whole silversides, krill, bone meal and peas). One of the most widely used high-calcium components used for discus diets is spinach. I stopped using it, as it has also been reported to contain very high levels of oxalic acid, which is able to "sequester" (make unavailable to the fish) more calcium than the actual calcium content of the spinach itself. In other words, if this is true, by giving spinach one is not giving calcium but taking some calcium away. There is a good article/discussion about this in DiscusBrief, and the oxalate content of fresh and frozen spinach can be found in web sites describing the bromatological composition of various food items.

Thanks and cheers, Francisco.

[yogi]

I need to take some new pictures of my wilds, so I can show them off. Dave Webber it looks like you figured out the lighting with your discus. So I now expect your site to look good once it's up. Here is a heckel waiting his turn.

[yogi]

Now it's his turn.

[yogi]

And now it's her turn, she's a Rio Madeira. The answer to your questions is no, I do not have fry. I will say this heckels love low ph and peat water. I have another male heckel that breeds with another Rio Madeira. And yet another male heckel who splits his time between a RSG for Joe at Enchanted and a scribble red-turq from Marc Weiss.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Beautiful fish and action, Jerry. Do you know where that heckel comes from ? It has lots of blue in the fins and head region.

Regarding the green, brown, blue discussion, and for any who may be interested, Madeira fish are considered blue discus. The Rio Madeira joins the Rio Amazonas not too far east from Manaus, and also not too far from Manacapuru, well within "blue discus territory".

[aquatechnics]

I know it is hard to tell the difference among blue, green or brown discus. As Francisco mentioned, Schultz classification of discus shows clearly two species: Symphysodon discus Heckel and Symphysodon aequifasciata.

Heckel is heckel everywhere. The problem and confusion for everybody is with the Symphysodon aequifasciata and its subspecies:

- Symphysodon aequifasciata aequifasciata (Green)
- Symphysodon aequifasciata haraldi (Blue)
- Symphysodon aequifasciata axelrodi (Brown)

I had this dilemma for years and the only way I got to know if it was a blue or a green discus was comparing them, at the same time, in the same tank. I was able to notice that in green discus, the dark band encloses the dorsal and anal fins and the base of the anal fin has a solid green background with red stripes or speckles that sometimes are also over the body (RSGs). The blue discus, in the other hand, has the outer rim of the dorsal fin and the anal fin with a red base color with blue stripes that enters the body.

Here are some pics that might help:



Al, you are absolutely right about the discus diet. In the Peruvian case, discus eat small snails, some kind of freshwater shrimps (similar to misys), leaves, seeds, other small fish fry and even some flowers. We analyzed a dead discus recently caught from the river in Iquitos and found flowers and seeds in its stomach.

;)
Alberto

[aquatechnics]

Notice the blue fins.... ;D

[aquatechnics]

More blues...

[aquatechnics]

A RSG anal fin...

[aquatechnics]

Here is a map of the discus distribution from another point of view: http://www.aquaworldnet.com/dbws/biotope.shtml

:)

Yogi,
Sweet looking Pair! Is your Heckel the Male? If so I would be looking all over the world for a female Heckel that will spawn with Him. Just Think you would be the man with the plan and I would love some baby hecks ;D

Keep up the good work!
Cary Gld!

[fishfarm]

Yogi, Put me the list for any of those tank raise heckels. That is one of my goals as a breeder. I have crosses that are nice, but always a male heckel to female domestic, that heckel to heckel spawn is very elusive. I saw a few good pairs in Hong Kong but the fry did not have good heckel bar so I did not buy any while I was there. Ken

[yogi]

I'm not going to try and knock myself out breeding heckel to heckel. From what I've seen and heard Dennis H. who is a member here has done it. I have a fourth heckel that I assume is a female. The reason I say this is. Every time breeding occurs it's the females that bite and chase her from the males. I have heard that even with heckel to heckel not all offspring show a good heckel bar.

The male heckel in the picture is from the bluface of the spring 2001 collecting season. It has loss a lot of blue over time in my fishtank. The wholesaler I buy from doesn't list location just discus type. Both Webber and Oliver were selling the same discus at that time with the location listed, but I don't remember what it was.

[DarkDiscus]

Hey Jerry,

Do you have that big acryllic tank up and running yet? Another stop at your place is tops on my list of things to do next time we are in Florida, assuming you'll have us!

That pair looks absolutely great! I also want to see how that spotted fish from Wattley's is doing...

Take care,

John

[brewmaster15]

Sigh........

desire .... webster defines as...
: to long or hope for : exhibit or feel desire for
2 a : to express a wish for : REQUEST b archaic : to express a wish to : ASK



yep.. thats what I am feeling right now after seeing all these wilds. :)

-al

[fishfarm]

Alberto, I see from the distribution map from DBWS they have browns much farther west (almost to Colombia border) than on Oliver's map and Greens much father east. No maps are showing any discus in Colombia, (Which obviously has them) so we can only assume that the range is much more expansive and needs furthur study. I'd be interesting to combine as many sources as possible to see. I would suspect that the aquafaciatus complex is very varied with many fish of mixed genetics, Wild heckel crosses are also found in some places where they overlap with blues and browns. I love all the wild fish, even the guys who can't be placed in current nominclature. ;D ;D ;D

[Michael]

OK enough of show off with Heckels... :hat:
These are from Aquatechincs. Alberto told me they were eating shrimp-krill mix but he was wrong. They eat everything!!! beefheart, color bits, spectrum pellets, bloodworms, flakes.They eat my hand if they can...theyre like having "PIRANAS"

[paulmat]

Nice Fish Michael ;D
They look very happy and healthy.

Paul :guitarist:

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi all:

Very nice fish and contributions every body. This thread has indeed been fun and instructive.

Regarding Raffaele Buffo's map, we need to be very careful. That map has the problem that includes everything from confirmed collection data, to published stuff from a number of sources of various credibilities and accuracies, to hearsay, and to every honest mistake that anyone whose fish made into any kind of record have. Buffo has not been to those locations, nor collected wilds there. Thus, that map is cool, it is interesting, it certainly provides "another point of view", it is informative, but it must be treated as what it is. The other map is allegedly real, confirmed data. In a thread at DAAH (December topic- Wilds) Oliver Lucanus pointed specific entries in R.Buffo's map that were based in erroneous information. I don't have the knowledge to do any of that, but can appreciate the fact that confirmed data is different from a compilation of information obtained from sources of various qualities.

As I mentioned before, many people agree that differentiating between green discus on one hand, and both blues and browns on the other, is comparatively easy. Greens seem to be very distinctive, even non-spotted forms, and whether they have (some don't) a well developed outer black ring.
Much more difficult and thus more interesting is telling apart blues and browns. A lot of people, for a long time, including books and other publications have called "browns" a lot of fish, and very many of those are actually blue fish. Go to dealers or LFS's that carry wild discus. Keep a tally of what you see. I dare betting that you will end up with many more blues than browns, if any browns at all. Somehow, they seem to make it into the market in much smaller numbers. This may be an artifact of concentration of collection/shipping efforts around certain areas (Manaus, Leticia, Iquitos) or other issues. I don't know. But browns are less often seen around.

Regarding the black ring on greens and the excellent pictures posted by Alberto. Observing the ring is indeed often useful. But the ring is extremely variable, with some greens having it very intensely defined, others barely so, others have an incomplete ring, etc.
About the extension of the ring into the base of the tail (caudal peduncle). Almost any wild discus of any variety has that, as it is actually the 9th bar on the fish. Even discus without the outer ring, have of course that bar across the caudal peduncle. Further, some blue fish have an extremely well marked ring, as much or more than even some of the best defined rings on green discus. Thus, the ring by itself is not all that informative.

In order to illustrate the argument of the extreme variablity of presence and intensity of the outer black ring in green and blue discus, I will show several pictures below. The goal is to show that neither the presence, nor absence of ring is strong enough evidence to call a fish a blue or a green. Since I can only show the few fish I own, I cannot offer more dramatic examples, nor pictures of other fish I have seen.

(Please note: These are all animals that are at my house, and several of them present HITH and/or fin shredding. I acquired those fish in much worse conditions and they have been "cleaned of parasites" and are in various stages of recuperation. Some are not good enough to be shown yet but I will, just to make the point I am trying to get across.)

Let's see greens. The first, a fish with very strongly developed outer black ring.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Another green with very strong ring (I know its fins are shredded)

[Francisco_Borrero]

A green with much less outer ring development (almost absent in the anal fin, and less developed in the dorsal fin. The part of the dorsal next to the caudal peduncle has no black)

[Francisco_Borrero]

A blue with a fairly strongly developed ring...

[Francisco_Borrero]

Another blue with no ring at all (The HITH is much, much better now)

[BJ]

I thought I'd jump on the bandwagon. Postin' a few recent pics I snapped of my Wilds.
Ben

[BJ]

...Another Red Spotted

[BJ]

A Peruvian Green...

It's a haraldi(blue).

[limige]

ok my turn, old pics but i'll post then again anyway.


these are some of alberto's nanay rsg's

[limige]

this is a tefe' rsg

[Francisco_Borrero]

Those are some beautiful fish Ben and Limige. Alberto sure sells some gorgeous fish ! I hope to take advantage of that but it will have to be next year.

Ben, regarding the fish that you wonder if it is a green, a blue or a brown, do you know the origin of that fish ?? It is a beautiful animal !!! I would say it is a blue. However, it is hard to decipher from the photograph whether the anal fin has the blue/red pattern of blues, or a more coopery-green and red pattern of greens. What am saying is that my guess is that it is either a blue, or a fish with mixed blue/green parentage. Hopefully others with more experience will comment.

Last night I forgot to post one more picture to support the argument that the presence of a strong black ring in the periphery is not a sure-fire discriminating feature of green versus blues and browns. Some fish of all those varieties have it, some don't, and the intensity can vary.
The fish below are Curipera reds, blue discus. Very strong outer ring, even though they have only been 1 month in my house and have not finished "coloring up".

[BJ]

I do apolgize for posting such large pics. I was experimenting with my camera and may have used the wrong setting.

Hi Francisco. I believe the last Pic of mine is a Discus from Nanay. I do not yet have a good grasp of the disctinctions of Wild Blue, Green, or Brown. I may need to re-read this thread. Thanks for the insightful information!!

Ben


-I resized it ben,
brew

[aquatechnics]

Francisco,

I agree with you about that the black ring presence is not exclusive of the green discus, however its one of the characteristics in most of the cases. From my observation, the majority of the greens have the black ring and the majority of blues don’t. In my previous post, I gave emphasis to the base color of the anal fin (green base with red marks for greens and red base with blue marks for blues) as the main distinction between greens and blues. In fact, the pics I posted earlier in this thread, show only the anal fins to make my point about the coloring and no the whole fish.

Also, in my previous post, I left out the distinction between blues and browns on purpose. Having established the green/blue difference, it is now easy to realize that between blues and browns there is only a slight difference. The common description of a brown discus (S.a. axelrodi) indicates that the body is predominantly brown with blue lines in dorsal and anal fins. This is what it makes very difficult to tell a blue from a brown. The description of the blue discus (S.a. haraldi) adds that the blue lines extend from the head over the back into the dorsal fin.

Here is a pic of a discus that could be ....... ??? What do you think?

[aquatechnics]

About the origin of the fish, it is my opinion that it might be helpful to know from what river the discus come from to determine whether it is a blue, brown or green discus… However, we cannot close our eyes to a morphologic approach and to the predominant characteristics of the discus itself. For example, in the Nanay River case, the origin is not relevant at all since in this river, many years ago, a man-made introduction of discus from the Putumayo, Tefé and who knows from what other rivers, took place.

For the record, in 1999, 6 discus with the characteristics of brown heckel cross (I saw the pic) were found in the Nanay River (Perú). They were sold to a Japanese aquarium at a very high price. I wish I could afford them at that time. :-\

Ben and Limige, your discus look fantastic!!! Keep up the good work!!!

;D
Alberto

[Francisco_Borrero]

Thanks Alberto, it appears that we are much in agreement.

I agree that the ring happens in many fish, definitely many greens, but also in many blues. I have seen very few browns in person, but some book pictures present some browns with the ring, and mention it specifically (Degen's Wild caught discus as an example).
I also agree very much that the color of the anal fin is indeed perhaps the most useful feature to separate between greens on one hand, and blues and browns on the other. My ability to distinguish blues and browns is very weak.
Finally, I couldn't agree more with you about the importance/usefulness of the information on location of origin. Unfortunately a great deal of fish come without such information, and some information is also lost later when sold to hobbyists. And then, people like myself get fish from unskilled hobbyists, and no information is avialable at all.

The Nanay River discus are a problem to the arguments we have been discussing. Very many beautiful fish are coming from there, and you seem to be the master. The introduction in the Nanay of fish from other regions, some known, some unknown is a big problem that can be seen in at least two ways. On one hand, it has allowed the development of very attractively colored animals that perhaps wouln't exist otherwise in the wild. This is good and we are all enjoying seeing the fish and owning them (I would like some next year). On the other hand, it has created a nightmare for anyone interested in studying/analyzing the phylogenetic relationships and distribution patterns of variaties of Symphysodon in the natural environment. I imagine (I have never been there) that you can now find in the Nanay anything from clasic "plain" greens, spotted greens, and various degrees of hybridization between greens and blues and grees in browns. And you say now there also heckel crosses have been found. I consider it unlikely that pure browns can be found there, and somebody may also argue that it is unlikely that pure blues would be found there. Probability and natural population dynamics would make it very unlikely, considering that green discus were there first, in much greater numbers.
What happened in the Nanay may not be not too different from the scene we have among the domestic discus (although to a lesser extent) in that there all degrees of hybridization going on. The only difference is that in the Nanay is in the wild, but that doesn't make it "natural". A big problem. A beautiful problem, but a big problem in the study and unsderstanding of biogeography.

Regarding the fish you posted, all I can say is this:

- It is beautiful !!
- I don't know what it is.
- I believe is a hybrid, perhaps a blue with green, perhaps a brown with green.
- I believe these are the fish you call Nanay Browns. Am I correct ? Very nice looking fish. I wouldn't mind owning some, but I have a soft spot for those beautigul RSG's of yours.
- I do wish that other people would comment/offer opinnions which could only enrich this discussion.

I am glad that we agree in a number of things. Thanks for sharing/exchanging opinnions with me.
Many cheers, Francisco.

[Ralph]

It sure looks like a brown to me. The light base color with the redish fins, few striations, and the striations are blue. It looks like a light red Santa Rem.
Alberto, I'm really lost if that isn't a brown.

[limige]

fransico, where did you purchase those curipera's from? i really like the color of them, the rosey red/yellow is awesome, i see many "reds" that look more brown than red, i prefer reds like yours!! those are superb!!! love them! so do tell

[Francisco_Borrero]

Hi Limige:

The Curipera came from Oliver Lucanus (Belowwater.com) in Montreal. My understanding is that there are not many around, a few people purchased them (Dennis H., JimmyL, Tad/Judi, myself and at least one more person).
Mines are not full colored yet., in fact quite far from what they are expected to be. Of those bought earlier this season, Dennis H and JimmyL's were bought earlier and thus have colored up way more than mine. They are very special in my opinnion, and I hope I can have them breed for me.

Thanks and cheers, Francisco.

Oliver has some new Curipera this time. I was told one of the member of the forum had reserved 10 of them. He had bought a few of them from the last shippment. He likes them so much and had to buy more. There isn't too many left. My females are dancing around the domestic Purple ghost and the male is a subordinate fish in the tank. I'll let them spawn with the ghost in the community tank and then planning to take the ghost away and give the male a chance. I've picked up a wild Pigoen blood called Rio Semaj from Rio Negro. It was caught for the first time with this kind of patten. I have I male and 2 females. Kitti could have saved a lot of his time developing the Pigeon Blood if he had known this kind of fish exist in the wild. He's no fully colored yet. Only 12 hours out from the bag.
Jimmy

Here is the female Rio Semaj. from Rio Negro.

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Jimmy,

Glad to see your trip was well rewarded. ;)



Cheerio,

Chi.

[Barb Newell]

Hi Jimmy, WOW..... those are very very nice fish. You must be getting a nice collection of wilds. Maybe one day I could stop by and see them, your other wilds that I saw last time I was at your place are even nicer than they look in the pics. :)

Barb

[Jason]

LOL cool Jimmy! ;)

You named it after yourself!

I caught it, do I get a prize? how about your wattlety turquise? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The experts in wild discus were all scratching their heads when they saw the fish. Couldn't come up with the name. He was caught in Rio Negro area. I just got e-mail and saying that if I want to use Rio Uruau the exact location when he was caught. I'm free to use it. I like Rio Semaj better. Cause he is my fish.
Barb: The Curiperas are a lot darker red color. Bugundy being more closer with Greenish bronze head and pewter vertical bars. Can't find a nicer fish than that. They are dancing and shaking to each others right now in the community tanks.
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Okay... whose been letting Domestics go in the Amazon again!? ;) :) :)

..j/k nice looking fish Jimmy :) you've definetly been building a wild collection this past year!

-al

[jim_shedden]

I am getting pretty good at figuring out male / female in domestics but I have a heck of a time with wilds. Any ideas on what to look for or do I just have to put them in the tank and watch?

Jim

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

Jim
What works best for me sexing either domestics or wild is to put what you know is a proven male in the tank, he should let you know.
Dennis

[Ralph]

The left one is a Rio Madeira and the other is a Nanay RSG. They are between 5 and 6" and the photo doesn't convey their amazing looks. They are from Alberto at www.aquatechnics.net.

[Ralph]

This is a better look at the RSG.

[William Palumbo]

Very nice looking Discus Ralph! Alberto does sell some excellent fish. Also a very nice bio-tope looking tank, they look rght at home. What size tank is it?..Bill

[luisqueiroga]

Hi

Unknown

[luisqueiroga]

Hi

Unknown

[luisqueiroga]

Hi

Unknown

[luisqueiroga]

Hi

Unknown

[ChloroPhil]

Ralph,

Quick! Switch your Aponogeton with an Echinodorus and you could easily take the AGA Biotope division this year!!!

great pictures/info/thread everyone...
david

santarem male purchased from david webber...

[Tad]

DavidK,
DaveW did you good, that is one excellent looking Santarem, What are you long term plans with this beauty ;)

Tad

Tad,
Right now he's in a breeder tank with a supposed female wild santarem...i say supposed, because she's never laid eggs..."she" does do a very good impression of "staring at the cone", so i guess we'll see... ;)
david

[georgeeight]

My Wild Red Diamond, I don't really know what the proper name or which river he comes from he's got red spots all over, anyone know ??

[georgeeight]

Another picture with my blue Heckel ;D

[gang_mary]

Leopard pattern can be seen :o

[troy]

That looks like my leopard.

[h2oplantscritters]

Are you the Gary that just sold me the booster pump. Once I get the new head it will be used for the two wild blues and three wild greens in my 180 planted.

dan

[sleonard]

Wow, too bad all these pix aren't viewable anymore :(

Will these ever make it into the site library?

[Apistomaster]

A wild Idea;
I am on board! I have several t.r. strains. But I started out with wild fish and my first 3 pairs were 1pr Royal Blue 1st, then 2 prs. Browns. Starting at only 17yrs old,1969. Presently have 10 Heckels growing, Rio Branco, collection area. Goal: Breeding. I came very close in 1970 with a big pair.(I had a fish shop then) It is hard to understand why after over half a century of them being kept that no t.r. pure strain Heckels are virtullally none existent in the hobby. I think maintaining the wild types in their pure form is an important road to be trod. We would'nt have what we do if it were'nt for their wild ancestors. WE can and should all work on this aspect of discus keeping and breeding. The wild fish are different in many ways from so many of the popular color varieties ie. they are, on average, excellent parents.
I obviously have a slight bias for wild-types. This extends to Pterophyllum species. Except for Heckels, wild discus are probably easier to breedthan wild angels other than Altums, the angel equivalent to Heckels. Anyone else out there want to support what amounts to a species maintainance program?

[raglanroad]

The Altum Breeders' Club has that purpose, to establish and maintain good genetics with no known close inbreeding.

[Apistomaster]

raglanroad,
How do I contact The Altum Breeders' Club. I will have some altums soon. Just received 6 "Peruvian" Angels with 25 cent sized bodies and a little ragged looking. I have no idea what phenotype they represent at this stage. I was just happy to get some little wild ones to work with. The owner of The Cichlid Exchange, Portland,Or., said he has some 4 yr old Altums that act paired but no spawns yet. That sounds about like most Altums owners experience of a relatively long maturation of Altums compared to other angels. If there are any sucessful Altum breeders with fry for sale I sure can't find them.

[raglanroad]

Apistomaster, I started the club not too long ago, and we have in our membership 3 altum breeders of past years, and another breeder who shares his experiences and advice.

There is no charge for membership. Once we have a group of hobbyists that have success, we will trade fry so that non inbred fish can form the basis for a good production of domestic altum at some point, and also offer preference in sales of fry to members first. These would be unlike the severely and haphazardly inbred domestic scalare we have everywhere.

Right now all 3 past breeders are planning to breed them again, but only one of them has the set up ready for this years' juvie imports.

All were successful years before there was much public interest in altums. In my opinion, it is only the marketing of 2 individual's offerings that has spurred the current interest in these fish: Amano's use of them in his exhibits, and Horst Linke's marketing ability for his product. At $80 per fry for f 2, years ago,he did much better than our 2 members who made zero, could hardly sell them to pet stores in the early nineties, and the third member, who never attempted to raise the fry, as they were just a biotype experiment with no value at that time, especially in Venezuela where you can buy a bucket of altum cheaply.

As to the 4 yr old altums that have not bred, most captive altums obviously never breed, yet they should have done so already if conditions were right. My fish and many others have exhibited pairing behaviour, even tubes showing on many folk's fish, without spawning. It could possibly be that a period of hypoxia sterilizes most of the altum after capture, as their habitat is mostly high in dissolved Oxygen.

As far as I know, there have been fewer spawnings in the US than seems in line with population ratios. Canada has several and several repeat spawnings. Oliver Lucanus had a big supply of tank bred in the past from a Quebec breeder of Linke fish, and another contact that had spawnings of wilds, but not in such numbers.

I believe you will not find any fry or juvies for sale in the USA from wild parents and even the inbred Linke fish seem to have run the course here. Peter Thode had been selling the Linke f 4 inbred fish, but at last check, it seems they are no longer offered. I don't know the reason. One peculiar item about the Linke fish is that almost all show a broken barring pattern, which tends to fill in later on.

You would be a welcome new member if you like- owning altums is not a requirement, only interest in our goals is required ! I can add you to our membership immediately.

Dave

[Apistomaster]

Thank you for letting me into the Altum circle. I almost bought my Heckels from O. Lucanus but did'nt in my haste to acquire 3-L000 types because reports on captive spawning and their max. size of 5". I bought them out of their Rio Blanco Heckels plus two more from another source(I was told they were home grown) Yeah right, if the Rio Negro somehow changed course to flow with the Mississippi. One of those meets Bluehead/face Heckel criteria. I bought 4,3 were Heckel, 1 a ordinary Blue with a stronger central bar but no Heckel, any way, it and 1 Heckel were dead within the week they were in such poor condition. On-line shopping is like Vegas sometimes you win and...

[jolle]

suppose to be a green, but i dont know the river or origin..

[Darius]

Nice

[kingborris]

Where have all the pics gone :(

[pcsb23]

Where have all the pics gone :(
Thread was started way back 2003, during a server move/upgrade they got lost I believe, damn shame really.

[kingborris]

maybe we should start another? ;)

[pcsb23]

maybe we should start another? ;)
Why not? Go for it!

[Polar_Bear]

Here are a few of my wilds

[OnyongJun]

Here's a few of my Wild Discus. There's 4 Heckels and 2 Browns. I've had the Browns for over two years Supposedly from the Colombia side of the Orinoco. The 4 heckels are either from Rio Unini or Abacaxi. I bought 12 of them about a year ago. Six were from a tank labeled Rio Unini and the rest from a tank that said Rio Abacaxi. Lost track of which is which. The other eight are in a bigger tank with bigger Angels and Clown Loaches.

[standoyo]

Here's my heckels. Real no? :D

[OnyongJun]

My other wild Discus tank.

[russell]

Down to basics:
After having a chat with Larry ( Apistomaster) I decide to chuck my hat in the ring, for no other reason than to break the cycle. I posted some time ago about Wilds in the 50's and how in my opinion over the years the King has gone into decline. By that I mean you can buy one to match your wallpaper. fancy colours, fancy names, but most originated from the basic Tefe & Browns. once they were plentyful now it's a different story. I know things change, but as long as it's for the better I will accept it. in this case I don't think it has.
I visited the Negro and some of the tributaries in the early 60's .and wonder if the ecc'o system has changed since then. and if so how.
Keeping Heckles has alway's been a challenge, Breeding even more so. I know there are some out there who have, but the info is very sparse. they offer advice but surely if is was that simple we could all do it. I am a bit to long in the tooth (at 67 ) to start a Heckle project. butI would love to see some one doing it.
I know Tony V. Larry W , Brew and a few more are as passionate as I am and hope the project goes well. Surely the King Deserves this. protect and encourage the Study of the Original Wild Discus.
I hope more people will get into Heckles and leave the fancy ones to their Wives.( No offence ladies)

Here endeth the sermon!!!

[fusQer]

5 heckels from rio negro

[B-O-F]

I posted some time ago about Wilds in the 50's and how in my opinion over the years the King has gone into decline. By that I mean you can buy one to match your wallpaper. fancy colours, fancy names, but most originated from the basic Tefe & Browns.

Didn't think my first post on this forum would be a rant but I have to come out in favour of this comment.

I used to keep tropicals 35 years ago ( fish house, the works ) and am thinking of getting back into it just for the sake of having Discus this time.

Wow, how things have changed. Discus, while still being beautiful and stately seem to be going the way of the.... dare I say it ???? Guppy. ( or even the goldfish :) ) All we need is the grotesque finnage and we are there :) :)

I love Discus, even though I have never had any, But I think I will be sticking to the wilds if they are available over here ( UK )

Regards
B-O-F
( now standing for 'Boring Old Fart'

[brewmaster15]

Welcome aboard B-O-F!:)

Yes its true that discus have come along way compared to where they were...or depending on the Point of view, gone a long way from where they were.... But as a keeper of both the old and new...I think theres much that has come out of the new strains that is positive... and much positive still in keeping and breeding wilds.:)

For instance we would not have a fraction of the information we have now about these fish if they were only kept as wild... This information came largely from the domestication of them and the ensuing interest in keeping them because of what they could be bred to look like.


Don't get me wrong, I'm about as big a fan of the wilds as they come..but once we started breeding wilds...it was all history.

I'm glad to hear that we will have another Wild afficionado on board.. and hope that you'll share with us the adventure in keeping them again.

Take care,
al

Ps... Paul Lucas at Discus South in the UK may have wilds...I know he has gotten some beauties in the recnt past.

[B-O-F]

Welcome aboard B-O-F!:)

Ps... Paul Lucas at Discus South in the UK may have wilds...I know he has gotten some beauties in the recnt past.

Thanks for that Brewmaster. When the time comes I will talk to Discus South, but it will be a while, If I do it then it will have to be with a fish house and huge tanks which has been my dream since losing the last one :)


I take your point about what has been learnt, and I could agree with it more if I could believe it was all intensional but I can just 'see' how it happened..... 'Oh look, that baby has developed a solid skin, spots, ( or insert your own disfugurement :)) and instead of saying 'lets cull it' they say 'Lets breed it back to mummy/daddy'

I know different people get different thrills from the hobby, ( and I dont really feel that strongly about it :) ) but I just wish I had been there to ask 'Why ?'
Regards
B-O-F

[wannafish]

Hello

I am interested in seeing photos of the
wilds on these pages, but I don't see them.
Where are the images. I guess they weren't
uploaded correctly!

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi all of you,

I just saw this long (old) thread and wonder really as the previous writer: where are the photos?

If I see them, in most cases I can classify them and tell you where they occur in nature (come from). And naturally I will explain again that names like a "Madeira" discus is not existing in nature, nor a "Curipera" discus. These are invented names and no localities were they occur.

Let s here what you think all in doing this.

Best regards from a colelctor

Heiko Bleher
www.aquaporess-bleher.com

[pan]

I think it will be a great idea.I would love this.
Mr Heiko you are always so willing to help us.I look forward to see this work.
Greetings from Greece

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Pan,

I love Greece and Greek people, which I think are some of the friendliest on Earth (at least always to me). I am only sad about what happened to your place recently, I hope it get over soon (as it seems not to ended yet...).

Thank you for your kindness and I hope to come back soon to give some more seminars and be able to pass on some more messages, practical things I have learned with fishes all my life (sometime I think I should have been born a fish, or some of my ancestors were...). And those which are not in my book (and which will not be in volume 2).

Thanks and all the best to all your country people and have peace - at least for Christmas - and take care of your fishes, they will reward you,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com

[rowedder]

mine are in the process of rewarding me :)

[Pelle]

Dear Heiko (and all others reading this interesting tread)!
Here are my wilds and if you please could take a look at them and give them a proper identification I would appreciate that.
As far as I have been told they should be:
No1 = Traira :thumbsup:
No2 = Traira cross :heart1:
No3 = Alenquer :)

The other pictures are just all three together in my tank as it looks today and a picture of one of my newly purchased Red Spotted Greens :love:.
I hope you like them!

Pelle

[Eddie]

Hi Pelle,

Beautiful wilds, they are gorgeous. I love the tank too, just perfect. How big is the tank?

Eddie

[jim_shedden]

very nice............thanks for the pics

JIm

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Pelle,

thanks for the request. I can tell you the following:

first of all, all these blue discus (S. haraldi) are from the Alenquer region, for sure. And I think the 1. and 2. are from the Rio Curuá (there and in Cuipeuá, as you can see from my book, I found several times one with a so called Heckel-discus-center-bar, as in your 2nd. fish-photo).
I am also sure that these first two are brothers (or better brother and sister) and between 14-18 month old.

The 3rd photo-fish is a very typical so called Alenquer and is probably from the Lago Grande. And I guess about 12 month old.

The last photo shows two green Discus from the Lake Tafé region with an age of about 16 month.

Your tank is nice, but one advice: give than some floating plants for shade and/or some more driftwood to go under and/or in between coming from the top.

All the best and merry Cristrmas to you and your great fishes,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquaopress-bleher.com

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi Pelle,

thanks for the request. I can tell you the following:

first of all, all these blue discus (S. haraldi) are from the Alenquer region, for sure. And I think the 1. and 2. are from the Rio Curuá (there and in Cuipeuá, as you can see from my book, I found several times one with a so called Heckel-discus-center-bar, as in your 2nd. fish-photo).
I am also sure that these first two are brothers (or better brother and sister) and between 14-18 month old.

The 3rd photo-fish is a very typical so called Alenquer and is probably from the Lago Grande region. And I guess about 12 month old.

The last photo shows two green Discus from the Lake Tefé region with an age of about 16 month.

Your tank is nice, but one advice: give than some floating plants for shade and/or some more driftwood to go under and/or in between coming from the top.

All the best and Merry Christmas to you and your great fishes,

always

Heiko Bleher
www.aquapress-bleher.com

[Pelle]

Many Thanks Mr. Bleher,
Now it is even more interesting to continue with Wild Discus.
I will take your advises and optimize my tank just as you say.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New year

Pelle

[bukhov]

There can be this link somehow will help http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/INDEX.htm

[discusjoe27]

wild greens, unknown coming from a aquarium fish shipper located in arlington tx.