Fin Rot Spreading Fast "Help" [Archive]

gazzriz

02-15-2003, 02:26 PM

Hi
Update- Here it is 2 weeks later. What I thought was fin rot turned into a Nightmare. This is what getting better looks like.... It has been one "HELL" of a battle for me being new with discus, and the battle still rages. It has gone from tank to tank and I thought I was being careful not to contaminate the other fish..... Gee Whizz!! I tried several different things but what worked was, lowering the pH to 4.5 for two days, then maintaining 5.0, Maracide, a sulfate powder and treating with metronidazol. I don't remember what the proper name for this disease is, I just call it crud.

Special thanks to Jeff Dotty and the Heppner Family for helping me through this.

Gary

gazzriz

02-15-2003, 02:28 PM

The Picture

Carol_Roberts

02-15-2003, 03:08 PM

. . . . that looks nasty :o Did you find out what it is?

02-15-2003, 03:16 PM

VERY VERY NASTY TC time!

Salt will not work!

02-15-2003, 03:33 PM

I agree salt will not work... Tetracycline HCL no water changes for 2-3days.

Cover the tanks with good lid they will be jumping.

Mike

gazzriz

02-15-2003, 07:45 PM

I was told by the seller that it was a bacterial infection. I don't know the name. As bad as they look now they looked even worse lying on their sides. You should have seen them, they were jet black. I should have taken pics all the way through but pictures were not on my mind at the time. I have lost a total of 9 fish and am not out of the woods yet. This crud, whatever it is, is lethal and harder on the blue diamonds and young fish, 2 1/2 inch and smaller. Salt by itself is no match. Tetracycline, I tried and they were still dying. I really think the "key" was dropping the pH to 4.5 along with the Maracide. In fact, in one tank, pH hit 4.0. Again, I am not out of the woods yet.

Gary

brewmaster15

02-15-2003, 08:00 PM

Hi Gary,
This is just my opinion but if you have been fighting this for 2 weeks its not a bacterial infection. I'd say protozoan is likely, which may be why you are are seeing an improvement with maracide.

How many days have you been treating with maracide?
If its protozoan... if may help to shut off off the tank lights.

Formalin baths may help here as well.

-al

gazzriz

02-15-2003, 11:49 PM

Hi -al
I have had maracide on them since day one. I have tried just about everything that has been suggested that makes any sense and still just when I think I am on top of it, "it starts all over again" Dear Lord, what is this CRUD?

Please tell me what a Formalin bath is.

Thanks, Gary   
   

02-15-2003, 11:53 PM

Brew,
Say What?
I do agree that a protozoan could be part of the Problem! but its not whats eating into the Discus! How could You even say after 2 weeks its not Bac????? I find Your statements Very untrue IME.

IMO It looks and SOUNDS like
Edwarcsiella tarda To Me! there are also anther number of bacs that could last up to 2 weeks like Pseudomonas + Aeromonas. However I do agree on Your treatment for protozoan's Sounds like what I would say! with HIGH heat! ofcourse.

Also if You read the bottel of Maracide its also used for treating Bac! And can be combined with TC.

Gary
How did You use the Tc? You need to double Dose No lights
with 50% W/Cs Daily with a redose? YOU WILL ALSO NEED TO CLEAN OUT YOUR FILTERS DAILY FROM ALL THE SLIME LOSE. Also starting with a very clean tank is important!
Loseing 9 discus does not sound like its helping to Me only Lingering Like the Top Bacs DO!

TakeCare
And Good Luck!
Cary Gld!

P.S You might also want to try neomycin mixed with TC 1/2 dose of each per 10 gals.

02-16-2003, 11:22 AM

Also never ever use hyde on discus with wounds like that!

02-17-2003, 12:12 AM

I agree 100% with Cary and Mike on this one. Formalin will definitely rid this fish of any slime coat it may have left. I have seen this before --biut not at this advanced of a stage.

Protozoans may be part of any secondary problem --but IMO, not the real problem here! Use The Tetracyclene HCL asap.

Joe :'(

brewmaster15

02-17-2003, 11:31 AM

Mike , Joe , and Cary,

Why do you reccommend tetracycline?

-al

02-17-2003, 02:13 PM

High heat and salt will take care of most protozoan problems. He was careful keeping things separate but yet they still spread from tank to tank. Lowering the pH seemed to help. "just when I think I'm on top of it, it starts all over again"

The combination of things he tried and the reactions from the fish started to sound like something I dealt with 1yr ago. esp the start all over part.

Bacterial infections can linger around for more then 2 weeks. Even though the fish look better its still present. His fish are weak and right now any Oxidizers will kill them for sure. Brew you are right there is a protozoan present... Copper Sulfate is the only cure and right now the fish are too weak.

But most of all I spoke with Gary on the phone. The source is paramount...his told all... and I have the diagnostic lab report to back it all up. The discus grim reaper of Seattle has struck again!!! >:( He has yet to clean up his act. :o I also know of 2 pet stores that just got hit... same source, same origin. Its a shame that we cannot put a stop to the scrupulous. They will prey on the new. :'(

There is lots that go on in this hobby that most will never see.. Because of the politically correct world that we live in its hard to expose the truth.... The public thinks there is motive... its called PAIN and right now Gary I feel your pain.

Vibro Cholerae (neomycin)
Acinetobacter woff (neomycin)
Shewanella (Tetracycline hcl)
Edward Tarda (tetracycline hcl)

Cure = Neomycin & Tetracycline

Mike

brewmaster15

02-17-2003, 02:35 PM

Mike,
Thats what I thought, and why I asked. Normally Tetracycline is considered one of the most bacterially resistent medications....extremely over used in the hobby and to many pathologists of questionable value as a bath to begin with. Its not something I would personally use for most problems anymore.... unless some one knew a particular bacteria was present, and that bacterial strain was susceptible to tetracyline+ neomycin.

Thats pretty much what I thought was the case here. You, cary, and Joe were too sure for it not to be.

-al

02-17-2003, 09:47 PM

Hi Brew,

None Of Us new what was going on with Gary's Discus At first!
When I seen the Pics and read Gary,s Post. I only took a guess of what it was and What it sounded like!

It was'ent till later that night! that I receive a call from one of Gary's good Friends telling Me were the Discus came From.
So IME from seeing the pic and reading the post I made My best Guess and nailed it right on the Money. ;D

Ofcourse this is because I delt with it before and it looked and sounded the same.

But You are very right about the TC being over used and many Organism's being Resistant to it. BUT! when the labs do there testing they test at 250mg Normal dose for all Antibiotic use. However this does not mean just because a Organism is Ressistant at 250mg that its not now susceptible to TC at 500mg Because in many case's it is. Also am being very nice on the dose some will use it as high as 1000mg.

IMO and IME If I ever have discus Dying left and right And I do not know whats going on Yet! TC at 500mg and Neo at 500Mg mixed would be My first choice. But I hope for it to never happen again and as planned it should never.

TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

PS ALLWAYS QT QT QT QT QT QT TRUST NO ONE!. WHY HERE'S A PIC OF MINE FROM A FEW YEARS BACK WHEN I WAS SCARED OF NOTHING! TC + NEO SAVED THE REST OF MY HATCHERY!

brewmaster15

02-17-2003, 09:58 PM

Hi Cary and Mike,
Thanks for the info so far.
More questions for you guys....

When you guys dealt with this problem.

How long did you have to treat with the tetracycline and neo to cure ?
How long did it take to see any improvement?

How many fish did you wind up losing once you started using these meds?

given the nature of the probelm... would you advise someone like gary to just euthanize the fish, bleach everything and start over? Or treat but be sure the pathogens are gone by a folllow up lab test?

-al

02-20-2003, 02:28 AM

Hi Brew,
Most of the Fish lose was before meds were used!

Also I used high heat at 90F only because I new the med would weaken it! and I wanted to speed things up! this would also play key roll in knocking the protazoan off course but not ridding it! IMO I allways go high heat and salt at first signs of anything.

When treatment started the fish looked worse before they looked better. All in all it took me 8 days to get everyone looking ok again! Also when useing any Antibiotic's its a good ideal to take them off the med slowly by cutting back on the dose on day 8 thur 10. Just stoping is not recommend and could cause many other future problems. Another good thing to remember when useing Antibiotics is it will also kill good Bacteria in the digestive system of the fish. So expect some time before the fish eats again.

The biggest danger would be useing the Antibotic To cure a problem on a fish that was treated for the same problem in the past and failed with the same antibotic. Or just plain useing it on the same problem over and over again uping the dose as You go! IMO this would be how problem strains become Resistant to Antibotic's

Also remmember there are wild type Organism! And Hybrid domestic. I can tell You this now that the wild type's have never seen TC or Neo. And many times wilds are mixed in some way some how with hybrids.

So I would say its safe to say IME I think Gary can beat this! Its just going to take some time and alot of work. However brew I do agree on a future lab repoirt to make sure things are gone but IMO I belive the same test could be done just by adding a outside fish that was not infected.

Hang in ther Gary 6 days left no fish lose since meds were added! Sweet!!! ;D

Best wishes!
Cary Gld

gazzriz

02-23-2003, 01:34 PM

Hello

Update; three weeks and two days into what has become a war, the battle still goes on and there is no change. Just when I think I might be winning, another one or two takes a turn and falls back into the clutches of this menace. I fear I will face the devastation that Cary and Mike faced when they were in the same war. I lost another fish last night and the grizzly picture posted by Cary looms in my vision of what might be. I also raise bettas, they were wiped out. I did not bring any new bettas in to contaminate them so I can only assume that the bug that killed them came in with the discus. I know this sort of thing happens but until now could not imagine how it feels. I hope none of you ever have to experience it.

QUESTION: What is the possibility that this bug has built up an immunity to the antibiotics (TC & Neo) I am using due to the fact that the antibiotics are so common for treating this type of disease and may have been improperly administered in the past. In other words, if you use the drugs for only a few days and don't follow through with them until the bug is dead then the bug becomes immune to the drug. Thus you have created a supper bug??? ???

Gary

rich

02-23-2003, 02:16 PM

Hi Gary,

I used to raise and show bettas myself as well.

As for developing resistance to antibiotics, improper dosage (underdosing), incomplete course of therapy, the presence of other subpopulations of resistant organisms to start with, frequent use of the antibiotic can all result in the development of a "superbug" as you call it. I speak only from human experience as I deal with them everyday. You now have the VRE (Vancomycin-resistant enterococcus), MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staph aureus), even VISA (Vancomycin intermediate/resistant Staph aureus), the highly resistant pseudomonas, the ESBL (Extended-spectrum beta lactamase)-producing gram negatives (such as some strains of E Coli and Klebsiella ). Most cases are hospital-acquired but some cases have been popping up from the outside community particularly resistant Staph infections.

Rich

gazzriz

02-23-2003, 05:59 PM

Hi Rich

Thank you for your input. Your bedside manor gave you away. Glad you are working with discus now. Stick around "simply" your talents will be most appreciated, I'm sure.

Gary

gazzriz

03-02-2003, 11:56 AM

Hi
Update:
Below is a pic of my female blue snakeskin, wasn't she pretty? On page one you see her in the onset of this crud.

gazzriz

03-02-2003, 12:25 PM

Here she is today. This pic was taken yesterday.

I hope none of you ever have to go through this. Thanks to the help and encouragement of several of you especially Jeff, Mike, Cary and the Heppners, not all is lost. Most of my fish I believe will be saved. But, as you see the battle is still on. The culture I had done revealed some Mycobacterium still alive and resistant to most drugs. TC and Neo got rid of most but three survive. I am treating two of them with Kanacyn. One bacteria is resistant to everything except some of the high dollar drugs. It can take as much as $1000 to treat all of my fish stuffed into a 50 gal tank one time. I am in hopes that the upcoming biopsy will reveal all, and that A Vet-tech friend of mine, who is researching the meds, will find a cheaper drug that will work.

Gary

Rick00

03-02-2003, 12:56 PM

i don't want to sound mean...but is a grand worth trying to save those fish.....sure could buy alot of new fish for that.....

if i was you...i'd bleach the tanks and start over....JMO

Good luck

Rick

gazzriz

03-02-2003, 01:45 PM

Rick

You are absolutely right. I have spent hundreds already. That's why I am waiting on my vet-tech friend to search for another drug. I will however, spend money on a biopsy to find a cure for whatever bugs that are left. I will then share the results with everyone.

Gary

03-02-2003, 03:10 PM

Hi Gary,
I share your pain, but from a different bug. Mine are dying from some type of parasite. It starts on the outside of their eye, grows at break-neck pace, fills the cornea, blinds the eye and disappears. Some type of nematode is suspected and I haven't administered the correct medicine yet. The worst part is, these are all fish from my first brood a couple years ago in South Carolina. I'm starting over myself.
Thanks for sharing this experience and to those who added their knowledge as well. I hope you eventually find something that works and please do share your findings.

Bob Stallings

brewmaster15

03-02-2003, 03:23 PM

Hi Gary,
Can you post the names of the bacterias that you have from the reports, and also the meds that they are not resistent to?

It might be useful to others in a similar situation.

thanks,
al

peety

03-02-2003, 06:17 PM

Condolences as well.... good luck. I would be keen to see the results as well since I've been going down a similar road.

Bob have you tried copper yet? One of mine got the nematode thing and copper worked a treat.

peety

gazzriz

03-04-2003, 04:36 PM

Hello To You All

First I want to thank you for concern, your encouragement and for your kind words of support. Those of you who have been through this know the pain and frustration that I have faced and am still facing. While the physical affects are worn down and there is light at the end of the tunnel, I can not get excited because I have been here before only to have a relapse and have to start all over again. There is also the fear that this bug can not be stopped and that the only way to get rid of it will be to destroy all my fish. Only time will tell.

As for the person that sold me the infected fish, I can not and do not want to believe that he did this to me intentionally. Not just fore a $1. I have been in contact with him and we have reached a settlement. It is no where near my actual loss but the most important thing was that he recognized that there was a problem and that he may be better off looking for another supplier. Unfortunately his supplier has more than one buyer in the US. That is where the problem lies and why we must all be very selective where we get our fish. I am new to the hobby and I suppose I should be grateful for this lesson so early on. If I can pass anything on to others that I have learned, it would be "DON'T GET IN A HURRY and BE VERY SELECTIVE OF WHOM YOU BUY FROM" Test the waters if you will.

Perhaps what this site needs is a "Better Discus Business Bureau" link, where people can go log a complaint or praise. Not another "Bull Ring" but a one time one line response by the buyer only for any transaction with anybody selling discus. People would have to live with and be accountable for their business ethics. I am sure that with the talents that the administrators have the mechanics of this could easily be worked out. I have a few thought on this if they are interested. Anyone, especially the new hobbyist, would be able to make a safer and wiser purchase. The objective of this hobby is to have fun, improve the line and share good things.

I would ask that none of you make any contact with the seller of my infected fish
because of this incident. That era in my life, I hope, is behind me and I can get on with saving the rest of my fish and try to enjoy them.

I will also post this on DAAH.

Again, Thank You All, so very much for your support.

Gary

brewmaster15

03-04-2003, 05:11 PM

Hi Gary,
That was worded very professionally. Thank you.

as for this....
I am sure that with the talents that the administrators have the mechanics of this could easily be worked out. I have a few thought on this if they are interested.

I am interested. No promises as to if we can work something out here but email me and lets talk about it. I know theres a lot of interest in this type of feedback system. I just need to figure out a way to do this that is fair to buyers and sellers, and doesn't open me up personally to a law suit.

take care,
al

gazzriz

03-04-2003, 10:04 PM

The biopsy will be done tomorrow at OSU. I will have to sacrifice four fish. They are of those that were going to be destroyed anyway. I will post the results when I get it.

This is the results from the swab taken 2-21-03. I hope this page turns out, I had to resize it to fit this format.

Gary

03-08-2003, 12:16 PM

Peety,
Thanks for the input. Would you indicate what you used and the process?

Bob have you tried copper yet? One of mine got the nematode thing and copper worked a treat.

Sorry to reply so late, but have been off line for a few days.

Thanks in advance,
Bob
peety

Symphysodon166

03-08-2003, 02:10 PM

hey Gary, I am in the same boat your in. The same looking stuff has spread through 5 of my tanks. I think it originated from not properly quarantining an angel bought at a local pet store/ now I go back to the store and the lights in there angels tank are all off and being medicated. I have been keeping discus in my 125 gal and 92 gal corner tanks for two years with no prob, so I was not equipped for an outbreak like this. Ive lost 400 quarter sized angels due to the naladin being too toxic for the young fish, one of my adult breeding gold angels. Havent lost any discus yet but four have not shown any improvement, its been over a week. Only 3 of them showed recovery from the naladin( naladaxic acid I guess) then I tried penicillin- only to read here today on the forum in an article on antiboitics that penicillin is unaffective against most aquarium pathagens-

quetion guys- can regular salt, or like the rock salt that is used for making ice cream that I use for brine shrimp be used in the salt remedy , or do you have to buy the freshwater remedy salt at the pet shop? -Jason

Carol_Roberts

03-08-2003, 02:14 PM

Ice cream salt, pickling salt, kosher salt, all work

gazzriz

03-08-2003, 04:12 PM

Hi Carol

Yes these are the fish I have been battling for; for a month and a half. They have been off of meds for three days. Last night I salted them, 1 tbl per 2 gallon. This morning I gave then 2/3 treatment of copper safe. I did this on my own call as the cycle of slime up, turn dark, lie on their side, "die" starts all over again. I just can't watch them suffer. Copper is something I have not tried but what the heck nothing else has worked.

As much crap as they have been through, I was amazed that my 7 month old goldens spawned. My goodness they are so beautiful. It brings tears to my eyes to think that they could end up like Cary's. This morning they were sliming up with the others.

I am waiting on OSU for the bacteria cultures of the kidney and liver. I will post that results when I get it. I pray they find what it is.

The ribbon feces, does that sound like tape worm to you?

Gary

Carol_Roberts

03-08-2003, 04:24 PM

Probably just intestinal lining or hex. Let's hope they don't find extensive liver damage . . . .

gazzriz

03-12-2003, 09:58 PM

This is the report from OSU Diagnostic laboratory. I have spoke to one of the Doctors involved in this and his opinion was that the massive infestation of monogenitic flatworms (gill flukes) was impeding their ability to benefit from the antibiotics. It was his opinion that I first deal with the flukes and then tackle the Edwardseilla.

I will keep you informed

Gary

gazzriz

03-12-2003, 10:01 PM

Page 2,

brewmaster15

03-12-2003, 10:10 PM

Hi Gary,
Thanks for sharing the info. At least the bacteria is sensitive to ampicillian.Thats a very easy to obtain med.

For the gill worms... what are you planning on using?

good luck,
al

gazzriz

03-13-2003, 02:09 AM

Hi al

I have had two doctors, one an aquatic specialest, tell me to use praziquantel for the gill flukes.

Gary

brewmaster15

03-13-2003, 10:35 AM

Hi Gary,
That would have been my choice as well. Good luck... be sure to use it for a long enough duration to catch any eggs as they hatch.

Good luck,

-al

gazzriz

03-13-2003, 08:32 PM

OSU has hired one of the country's top microbiologist, he is working on the case with Dr. Heidel. I just spoke to Dr. Tim Miller Morgan from OSU's aquatic facility in Newport, OR, who is also involved, he says "lesions found in the fish suggest multiple granuloma." Ouch! I am waiting on the doctors to read the slides. According to Dr. Morgan, if multiple granuloma is present then there is no hope for the fish. It is untreatable and contagious. According to the Dr. this would be simple to detect by overseas breeders it only takes a few dollars a couple of fish. You would think that Integrity would demand that they do this. I suppose that the $$$ means more to them. Cary set a fine example of what integrity is all about when he destroyed his fish to keep from spreading disease throughout the hobby. That was most honorable Cary.

I have lost another cat and a placostomus in the past two days. Both had small red blotches under the skin as did the other fish that died. I did notice it but dismissed it as part of the fish deterioration process in the warm water. The doctor said that it could have been from the lesions and I am thinking that it was. In the mean time I am treating my fish with praziquantel for the flukes. The edwadsiella I was going to use Ampicillin but Dr. Morgan said Baytril (Enrosloxacin) would be most effective. The Baytril is to be administered by mixing it with the food at a I% ratio. I will take the Doctors advice. After all of this, if the MG is not present then I will finish off with Copper Sulfate and Methylene Blue.

Again I will keep you posted,

Gary