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TnMark
02-06-2003, 01:05 AM
Let me start off by saying I really want to know the answers to these questions. If the tone sounds snippy, that is absolutely not my intention and I apologize in advance. Politically correct writing tone is not my strong point.

When I buy Discus (I am in the process of my first order now), my expectation is that what I receive will be the types I ordered, they will be alive and they will be healthy. If they are not alive, the buyer could not possibly be at fault, so the fish should be replaced by the seller. If it was the shippers fault, the buyer and shipper need to work out the problem. Healthy is a relative term that means if the fish come and are infected, or sick that the seller will work with the buyer to make them well and if they die the seller will replace them. The buyers responsibilty is to notify the seller immediately upon receipt of the sick fish, to follow all of the sellers instructions to make the fish well and to do all required maintenance (water changes and cleaning) the fish require. The seller is not responsible for the fish if they arrived healthy. I realize this is simplistic.

From what I read, some people selling fish don't seem to want the responsibility of replacing sick or dead fish, even if the problem was not clearly caused by the buyer. Statements are made to the effect, they only paid $30, what do buyers expect. If I spend $200 to $300 (8 fish plus shipping) on anything I expect it to be of good quality unless I am told otherwise prior to the sale. I expect this even if I'm getting a great price. If a seller wants to sell lower quality fish or sick fish at a discount, that fact should be clearly stated prior to the sale so there are no misunderstandings. An emailed bill of sale prior to the sale with the conditions of sale could be a good business practice to protect buyers and sellers and settle disputes at a later date. A seller saying that the buyer should have known the fish weren't great just because the price was cheap, in my opinion, is not a valid argument.

Regarding pictures
My goal is a nice selection of different color Discus for my show tank. I don't care for some of the specific strains of solid color or striated Discus. Because of the inconsitency in naming Discus, without a picture, for example, I don't know if what a seller is calling a spotted leopard is really what I want. That being said, I don't expect a picture of the actual fish I am getting. I want a representative picture of the type and color of fish you are sending. I realize most of the fish are younger and don't have their full color and the actual fish might not turn out as you expected. I expect a best guess of what you expect the Discus to be. The pictures will show me that we are on the same page as to both of our expectations for the fish.

My question is are my expectations unreasonable? If so, what do sellers expect from buyers?

Thank you. I think that when both sides spell out their expectations, it avoids misunderstandings.

Mark Neigut

02-06-2003, 01:31 AM
Mark, I think your expectations are reasonable allbeit low. No way should a seller send a sick fish. it is totally irresponsible if the seller sent sick fish even with instructions for the remedy. Any seller worth anything at all --guarantees live delivery and for the fish to be healthy irregardless of the quality.

Joe

02-06-2003, 09:58 AM
Hi TnMark,


I gaurentee live shipment or $ back!


I gaurentee high Quality Flawless Discus of your Choice or $ back


I gaurentee Health after shippment for 10 days or $ back



HTH
TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

02-06-2003, 10:35 AM
Hi Cary,
That's what they call a blanket gaurantee, it can't get better than that, now if you'll also gaurantee breeding too .lol.
ps: just joking about the breeding part..lol.

02-06-2003, 01:24 PM
Mark,
Your expectations are quite reasonable, cary goes a little further with 10 day garantee but that is the way he is....... health is not relative at all, quality is... if a discus is healthy, it won't bail on you in a few days, irrespective of how bad water conditions are... i have seen many newbies get disappointed when their fish don't turn out the way the pictures are, except for a few solid strains and some established ones, there is no garantee that the color will turn out like the pictures, discus change color to a great extent depending on the water conditions... express your expectations to the seller, stay with the knowledgeable ones.... both that frequent this site has answered here and the third I think is taking a little break....

fcdiscus
02-06-2003, 01:29 PM
I think it is also the job of the seller/breeder to get some information about the buyer of his fish. I do not sell very many (yet), but I try to see if they will have a good chance of survival and being able to thrive with the purchaser. If not, I have refused to sell to certain individuals. Frank

02-06-2003, 03:50 PM
Frank i don't think that is an option for professionals. After all this is a buisness... right????

02-06-2003, 05:34 PM
Frank,
You have made a valid point. IMO Yes the seller should have an interest in where their fish are going. And if they have a bad feeling about it, to stop the transaction before it turns into a bag of problems.

IMO
Miles

02-06-2003, 05:44 PM
Frank,
I would be interested how you screen your customers when you put your fish out on Aquabid?

TnMark
02-06-2003, 05:56 PM
I think screening customers is reasonable because some customers (just like some sellers) are not reasonable. If someone has had experience with a problem customer or if a seller gets the feeling from discussions with a potential customer that they could be a headache if any minor problems crop up, you should not be faulted for refusing to sell to that person.

fcdiscus
02-06-2003, 06:11 PM
Runner, If I find what would be a bad purchaser on aquabid, I would risk a negative feedback from that person, and refuse the sale. Frank

Anand, I do not consider myself a professional yet, and will cross that bridge when I come to it, but do not think it will change my point of view. Frank

OEG
02-06-2003, 10:33 PM
Frank,

I agree with you, why put all the effort time and money into a fish and then send them to a sure death, thats your time money and effort to get what you have worked for and you should at least take the time to educate new buyers on the does and donts of keeping discus. I would feel good about selling hardier fish like some of the old strains to start with like red turqs or some cobalts and later go with other strains.
Oscar

02-06-2003, 11:23 PM
Frank,
When you do become professional, you will understand it, ask cary or joe or mike..... the same customer who had wonderful transactions with one have had major problems with the other, why??? that is the nature of this buisiness....... It is a very personal issue and hard to tackle.... I have high regards for these guys who try so hard to keep the reputation up in this tumultuous trade, where most are one time byuers and a simple alligation of one buyer costs you several more potential customers...... It is a hard thing to keep up......... not to mention bagging hundreds of fish every day... nah! nah! nah!!!! Not for me..... I can tell you that much....

fcdiscus
02-07-2003, 02:42 PM
I know Anand, I can't get you to ship me just one box! ;) Frank

brewmaster15
02-07-2003, 03:07 PM
I don't sell too much, and i don't expect the commercial breeders and seller to do this as it takes much time, but if I sense that someone interested in my fish has little or no experience I will take time to walk them thru the care of their fish, and I will send them to sites like this one where they can learn more. I always try to find out what their experiences are so I can fill in the blanks.

From what I have seen much of the probelms people have when they get good fish to start out with, is the lack of understanding as to what they need to do.


As an observation, I think the breeder/sellers that do take the time to teach what needs to be done, will win a repeat customer, and are the ones that are generally well thought of on boards like this.

Anyone can sell fish, but helping someone out may make the difference between a seller, and a great seller. It certainly earns the respect of those watching on the sidelines.

JMO,
al

fishfarm
02-09-2003, 10:41 PM
Hi Y'all, I agree with most of what is said, Education is the key for the buyer and seller. Check out the sellers feedback on Aquabid, ask about the seller on this forum. I spend as much time giving out advice, as I do selling fish. Many times to folks who have never bought fish from me and may never buy from me. I answer every e-mail I get. I try and follow up on every sale to insure the fish arrived in good shape, and if not let the customer know what to do to try and help them along as best they can. I let people know my water conditions and how I maintain the fish. No one should ever send out anything that is sick. Explain how to acclimate them upon arrival. Sometimes (especially in winter) the fish get stressed and there is a problem, let the buyer know what to do. Every shipment I send out when it's cold, I tell the buyer what to do if the fish arrive chilled. Integrity of the seller can make a big difference to the success of the buyer and whether he continues with discus or get disgusted and quits!
Guarantee live arrival, follow up on the sale, insure that the buyer knows how to take care of the fish when he gets them. Everyone is happy ;D

02-10-2003, 12:39 PM
No one Should sell or send out Discus with missing body parts either! ;D

02-10-2003, 01:52 PM
What if it fell off during shipping....... ;) ;) It that okay as long as it is still in the bag?????

chirohorn
02-10-2003, 03:06 PM
Anand, that's nothing a little Elmer's glue won't take care of. ;D

02-10-2003, 09:32 PM
cary, I found my vocation! I am in the process of manufacturing Fish Prosthesis. I can sew on high fins for you my friend! 8) Joe

steve s
02-13-2003, 10:13 PM
It is nice that a breeder will take the time to talk to the
buyer , even give them some good advice. I am in retail
and we do this with customers all the time. I do not expect
a gold star for this. What I do get is a happy cust. who
will buy from me again , or give me a good referrance.
But I am not a head doc. and in a short conversation
can not assume I know how those people will treat
what they buy.
Many people get confused when taking to people
they do not know. Many times the person you are taking to
is not one who will be taking care of the fish!