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HarryW13
02-08-2003, 02:59 PM
I just got my first Discus a couple of days ago from Mike Wells, after having them just a couple of days I can see that having just 2 is not going to be enough (Is this how the obsession starts???). They are currently in a community tank, but I want to start an all Discus tank. This forum has been very helpful in getting a lot of info, but I still have some quetions:

1.Filtration: I've always liked power filters with Bio-Wheels, when I look at the posts on what type of filter everyone uses, nobody talks about Bio-Wheels. Is this because of the frequent water changes the Bio-Wheel is not nessesary?
2.Water: I have well water at my house, it goes through a softner before it goes to my tap. I measured the GH=4 and the KH=8, my PH is 7.5. Is my water OK for keeping Discus?/breeding?
3.Food: It seems that most people feed beefheart. Is this something I can get at the Pet shop?
4.If I get tired of looking at a bare bottom in my tank, can I get away with just a 1/4 inch of gravel, or possiblely a thin layer of sand? I think I understand the reason that most of you have no gravel, is that it traps dirt and water quality is very important to you. Thats why I'm wondering if it's OK for a thin layer, which would be easier to keep clean.
Thanks
Harry

Carol_Roberts
02-08-2003, 04:00 PM
1.Filtration: I've always liked power filters with Bio-Wheels, when I look at the posts on what type of filter everyone uses, nobody talks about Bio-Wheels. Is this because of the frequent water changes the Bio-Wheel is not nessesary?I've used Emperors - Aqua clears are simpler to maintain, cheaper and do just as good a job

2.Water: I have well water at my house, it goes through a softner before it goes to my tap. I measured the GH=4 and the KH=8, my PH is 7.5. Is my water OK for keeping Discus?/breeding?You may want to use it prior to the softener - calcium and magnesium are replaced by salt. I have a well also, GH11, pH 7.8

3.Food: It seems that most people feed beefheart. Is this something I can get at the Pet shop?Yes, you can buy premade frozen beefheart, blood worms. California black Worms can be ordered and delivered to your house


4.If I get tired of looking at a bare bottom in my tank, can I get away with just a 1/4 inch of gravel, or possiblely a thin layer of sand? I think I understand the reason that most of you have no gravel, is that it traps dirt and water quality is very important to you. Thats why I'm wondering if it's OK for a thin layer, which would be easier to keep clean.I doubt you will even ask that question once you have your discus for a month or two. ;)

02-08-2003, 04:11 PM
Harry, It was nice meeting you the other day... I see you found Simply ;)

Trust me when I say your going to make new friends, Learn a ton and get excellent adivce like Carol has just given you.

Good luck and keep in touch.

Start looking for a bigger tank... Your already hooked. ;D ;D ;D

Mike

fossil
02-08-2003, 08:14 PM
Hello, this reply is toward your question about gravel. I have my discus in about 2/4 inch gravel. They do fine. I tried the bare bottom tank and it was just, just to well too ugly for me. I have drift wood in there with a few plastic plants. IMO it looks nice about 100 times nicer then a bare bottom. Its all up to YOU.
-good luck

Ryan
02-08-2003, 08:58 PM
There is no debate concerning gravel. It is harder to keep clean. If you do not believe me, dump a bunch of food into a bare bottom tank, and do the same with a gravel tank. Let it sit there for 2 weeks, untouched, then siphon both tanks. The bare bottom tank will come clean quicker.

When you have several discus tanks or a busy lifestyle (or both), sometimes it's hard to find time to pour over every inch of gravel with a siphon and make sure it's clean. I have tried it, I set my tank up and for about two months I ran it with gravel, driftwood, and fake plants. I siphoned religiously and thought everything was great. Until I tore the tank down. The first fake plant I pulled up sent debris floating into the water, as did every other ornament in the tank.

I decided at that point that it probably wasn't the best way to maintain good water quality, which is one of the key elements in discus keeping. I don't feed my juveniles heavily, but I do feed them frequently and with a lot of meaty foods like beefheart, blackworms, and bloodworms. So cleanliness is important to me.

There is nothing that says you cannot raise out discus in a tank with gravel, I have seen it done many times. But you will want to take the extra time needed to siphon it well and keep it free of uneaten food and such. The key thing to remember in discus keeping is that if your water quality suffers, so will your fish. How you choose to setup your tank is up to you, as long as you can maintain water quality.

Ryan

Ralph
02-08-2003, 09:33 PM
I just recently set up a tank with about 1/2" of white sand on the bottom, no plants, just sand (and some driftwood). The sand is large grained silica sand that I bought at the LFS. It's relatively easy to keep clean, I vacuum it daily, putting the vacuum spout all the way into the sand to the glass bottom. The sand bubbles around and the solid wastes get sucked up and the sand returns to the bottom.
I like it because it looks good and it's what the discus have in the wild, the river beds are white sand.

chirohorn
02-09-2003, 03:34 AM
Beef heart can be obtained very cheaply at your local grocer. Call the meat department in advance to verify availability as not all stores will stock it...kinda scares some folks. :o Check out the Food section of this forum for beef heart mix recipes & preparation tips.

fossil
02-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Hey Ryan about the "test." I dont know why you would leave food in there for 2 weeks?? I change and clean my tank every day with gravel and my discus have doubled in size in just the month and half I have had them. I can be done and I think its kinda bad for the discus to have a bare bottom. I mean think about the crap is just there untill you clean it. Its kinda like 'hay' for goats if there were not any hay on the ground the goats would just be standing in crap I think the gravel makes them more happy and is better for them. Another example is kitty litter what if your cat just pooped in a emty box the litter is there so there just isn't crap for the cat to sit in. I wish I could expand on this but I gtg. I'll write more to night.

Carol_Roberts
02-09-2003, 03:47 PM
Erm, no. Kitty litter is not a good analogy. Try a smoke, pollen or air quality analogy.

Water is constatnly run through the discus gills. You need to dilute the pollution by removing as much as possible and then diluting the remaining pollutants with fresh water.

Putting burning leaves in a barrel contains the leaves (like kitty litter) but does nothing to allieviate the air pollution.

Rotting food and feces are constatnly disolving into the water whether it is sitting on a bare bottom or trapped in gravel. You can see it in a bare tank and remove it. It "hides" in the gravel and sits disolving and disolving.

Ryan was suggesting you try an experiment in a tank without discus.

Ryan
02-09-2003, 04:43 PM
Carol's right, I was suggesting the experiment in a tank without fish. The point was to demonstrate ease of cleaning between gravel and bare bottom tanks.

Foods begin to break down as soon as they are added to your tank. With siphons and water changes, the uneaten food is removed and has less chance of breaking down and fouling the water. In a gravel tank, if you miss any of the uneaten food during water changes, it sits and decays and slowly kills your water quality. In a bare-bottom tank, I can be 100% sure that I didn't miss anything.

Like I said, gravel tanks are possible, I intended no argument. Just a demonstration as to why I choose bare-bottom over gravel.

Ryan

Tyler
02-09-2003, 04:53 PM
Fossil,
You told us you had the great experience of getting to visit Mike and see his setup. Didn't you notice that his tanks were bare bottomed?
And about cleaning gravel tanks....its just impossible to get all the gunk out. Unless you did w/cs on gravel several times a day, and extremely thoroughly, i don't see it being as good for water quality as bb.
JMO

Tyler

Daniel_SR
02-09-2003, 05:39 PM
Hi everybody! About the bare bottom i was thinking about a solution that could have both good sides oh the history: the cleaning and the beauty. How about a styrofoam bottom? You can build a nice bottom, and still have all the cleaning facilities. Check out the link bellow to see what can be done with that kind of material.

http://www.aquahobby.com/tankmonth.html

http://home.c2i.net/zthune/under_bygging.htm

I think it´s possible to build something nice, it hasn´t to be all flat, it migth have ups and downs and diferent colors.

Am i too crazzy or something worse than that? Hope not!

See you,

Daniel

Fisheyes
02-09-2003, 07:28 PM
Well I hate to steal someone elses idea but here goes. 8) 8) 8)
How about a film of silicon on the bottom spread thinly then throw some silica sand on top[.

Turn upside down right away and walla.
Sand bottom that will be easy to clean yet give the fish something to look at except them selves. ;D[
Oh don't forget to let it dry before using.

I think I will try that myself. hell of an idea ;D ;D ;D
Pictures just to look at enjoy

Ralph
02-09-2003, 07:47 PM
Styrofoam? That is wild Daniel, I wouldn't have thought that someone could keep it submerged, it would be like trying to sink an inner tube. But there it is, and it looks great.

The problem with the planted vs. BB discussions is that they are based on trying to decide which way is THE correct and only way to keep discus. And like Daniel said, there are many options, each with it's own set of advantages and drawbacks. Ryan's analogy explaining the problems of keeping a gravel substrate clean is a valid one, there is no way that the gravel can be kept as clean as bare glass. But like he said, if you are willing to do the extra effort to keep the gravel reasonably clean, you can have discus and plants together, successfully.

One of the ways Fossil, is exactly what you mentioned, keep a thin layer of gravel or sand. The thin layer makes anaerobic activity unlikely and minimizes buildup of mulm. Feeding your fish the kinds of foods that don't reach the gravel is another.

I think the answer though for many people who are trying to decide which way to go, is the many options that have some benefits of a planted tank while still offering the cleanliness and ease of a BB tank. There was a recent post in Show Tanks and Biotopes of a tank with no substrate, but he tied plants to driftwood. Others have gone with no substrate but with potted plants in their tank. I'm working on a tank with a sand substrate (very thin) and very few plants. Even the people with BB tanks often recommend putting philodendron roots in their tanks.

It's up to each of us to find the option that best suits our expectations of what we want in a discus tank while still meeting the needs of the discus themselves. To do that, a person needs to inform themselves on the needs of their discus (and also any plants involved). That's where Simply comes in, there are many very experienced people here willing to share what has worked for them (and also what hasn't worked). And it's free!

Ralph
02-09-2003, 07:53 PM
Fisheyes, we've been kicking that idea around in the Show Tanks Section. We were also thinking of using a removable mat with sand or something that looks like sand on it. One of the problems we've run into though, is that it's like having sandpaper on the tank bottom, and if the discus hit it, they scrap themselves up. If we could find a soft substance to attched the sand to, or maybe a see-through substance over the top of the sand....flipping the silicone over might be the answer though.
There are definate possibilities with the idea, who's ever it was.

HarryW13
02-09-2003, 07:54 PM
Carol,
I'm not sure I understand what you said about my water. You say I lose calcium and magnesium by my well water going through a water softern, but I thought Discus like soft water? How does the loss of theses minerals and the addition of salt in my water effect my fish? Is my water OK to beed in?

And also, you said you liked your Aqua-clear filter. Now I have heard is is a great mechanical filter, but is does not do much in the way of being a bio-filter. Do you not need much of a bio-filter in your Discus tank because of the frequent water changes?

BlueTurquoise
02-09-2003, 07:59 PM
Silicon with sand: That is a pretty permanent solution. I think it would be one heck of a job to remove it later if possible at all!

I used to have bare bottom with silk plastic plants, the type that has a weighted bottom so that it sits at the bottom nicely. I used it when I first got my discus to "acclimate" them to a bare tank. The silk leaves got stained brown from some gunk that could only be removed by hard scrubbing, the branches of the plants caught and tangled fish poo and other bits of gunk that required a daily heavy shake under strong running tap water and even then it was still dirty.

On Saturday morning after a heavy feeding on Friday of brine shrimp, tetra bits and black worms (after which I did a good water change and scrub, basically before bed the tank was spotless). I woke up to the filthiest sight that I have seen in a long time! Errk! They basically pooped their guts out and the bottom of the tank was totally littered with poo and other unrecognisable “artefacts” that lay stuck to the bottom of the tank! I immediately sucked out the poop and did a 20% change. Later that night, no more than 8 hours later, I did another large water change and noticed yet more poo and artefacts at the bottom!

Now this is a bare bottom tank, I feed them enough food that by the time I return to the tank about 10 mins later, everything is eaten up. I never feed them more food when there is still food left (usually in the form of live black worms). I would like to know, no wait challenge, anyone that can say that they can keep a gravelled tank clean! I am having a hard time keeping 3 x 4.5 inch discus in a 55gal bare bottom clean on a regular 3-4 times per day feeding routine!

It's downright back breaking, but then again I am abit anal about feces...

PS. maybe my fish are just pigs? hmmm

Chong

BlueTurquoise
02-09-2003, 08:08 PM
Harry,

AC are totally biological filtration the way that Carol and many others use them, myself included. We all put in prefilter sponges on the intake to prefent large chunks getting into the filter, and only have sponges as filtration material. The prefilter sponge is rinsed every day.

We are doing the opposite of what you are suggesting, Mechanical filtration is not as important as you do alot of water changes to remvoe the large gunk in the water. The AC are there to "polish" the water of ammonia and nitrites in between water changes biologically, relying on bacteria living in the sponge media to eat it up by having the ACs circulate the entire tank's water capacity through the filter several times every hour.

HTH!
Chong

HarryW13
02-09-2003, 08:21 PM
Chong,
What type of sponge media are you using in the AC?
And by the way I'd like to thank everyone for there helpfull info. I think you all have talked me into keeping my tank BB.
Harry

BlueTurquoise
02-09-2003, 08:30 PM
Harry,

Just AC standard sponges. When you buy a AC filter it comes with one sponge and one carbon bag as media. Just skip putting in the carbon bag (save it for when you want to remove medication) and buy an extra AC sponge filter and have 2 sponges in the filter as media. They also tell you to use Amrid but skip that too.

For filter ends, Pascale and I (shortly) will be using Fluval blue sponges as a prefilter, they come in a tube shape and perfect for AC500 after you plug the bottom up with extra foam. Carol makes her own prefilter sponges, and Randal uses a brand of prefilter sponges called Filter Max (which look really good). Basically any small pore sponge will do if you can secure it to the end of the intake of the AC. Large pore (or sponge that has larger holes) can trap gunk in the sponge).

Remember that you need to cycle the AQ first...

HTH
Chong

Ryan
02-09-2003, 08:33 PM
Hi Harry,

AquaClear power filters are an amazing bio-filter! When you buy an AquaClear, they come with one large foam sponge and a bag of carbon. Take the carbon out--you only need it if you're removing meds from your tank.

Buy an additional foam sponge just like the one that comes with the filter. They sell them seperately (look for the right model #, if your AC is a 500, get a replacement sponge that's also 500).

In the back of the AquaClear, just stack the sponges on top of one another. I have heard of people squeezing three of them in, but I can only fit two comfortably. The two sponges will give you a HUGE surface area for beneficial bacteria, which is what breaks down ammonia and nitrites into nitrate (which is, of course, what bio-filtration is)...

Also, put a pre-filter over the intake of your AquaClear lift tube to keep large debris out of the filter. If you use a pre-filter, you will not have to do thorough filter cleanings as often. Without the pre-filter, large chunks of food and waste can get sucked up into the AC where they sit and decompose, making it necessary to frequently take the filter apart and clean it. There's a thread in the Beginners section regarding pre-filters, just scroll through and look for it (it may be on page 2 or 3)...

Ryan

Ryan
02-09-2003, 08:36 PM
LOL Chong, we were replying at the same time. Funny how our messages were pretty much identical. Harry, here is the pre-filter thread:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=6229

I, too, use the Filter-Max brand pre-filters (these are the same people who make Hydro sponge filters) and I love mine. I posted a picture of it on the link above. Also, it's easy to make homemade pre-filters.

Ryan

BlueTurquoise
02-09-2003, 08:38 PM
LOL Ryan

:thumbsup:

Chong

fossil
02-09-2003, 10:20 PM
-Hey Tyler, I believe you have me confused with someone else I have never been to see Mike or see his setup. Although I would like to go. :)

-Carol first of all I don't want you to get mad at me because you have been the most helpful person on this forum for me. I really appreciate all the help and I hope you will continue to help me on my questions. :)BUTTTTTT....... You said...."Putting burning leaves in a barrel contains the leaves (like kitty litter) but does nothing to allieviate the air pollution. " I'm not really sure that will work? What is the substrate you are comparing the garvel to? The leaves are the waste and uneaten food but what is the gravel? The barrel is the tank, correct? Say if you put a top on the top of the barrel with small holes. That could act as the gravel. The top slowly lets the air polution out rather then no top which will just release the air polution more quickly. The gravel (or top) releases the polution more slowly verses the barebottom where the polution is being realeased all the time. There for making the gravel tank cleaner. Sure you will get every little speck out of the bare bottom but in return the discus will be more susceptible to diseases. They are not exposed to the germs which could hurt your discus in the long run. Im gunna say the discus in a BB are the "Indians" and that the discus in the gravel tank are the Europeans. The Indians were never exposed to diseases there for a great number of them caught the disease when the Europeans came over. The Europeans were already exposed to the germs making them less likley to die from the diseases. Just one new fish that was in a gravel bottom before you bought him could carry diseases (even if quarantined) The fish that have been in a BB their whole life was not exposed to these grems there for ending up like the indians. :( Just a few thoughts I picked up on when in global class the other day. We are always going to have our own oppions, that will never change. These are mine and hope NONE of you will be offened by them because by all means I did not intend to do so. My discus look great IMO better then a lot of BB discus. I wish I could show some pics but I don't have a dig. cam and my scanner freezs up when I try to scan something. Hopefully I'll get a cam for my next b-day. Well "peace out" as they say.

Carol_Roberts
02-09-2003, 11:09 PM
Hi Fossil:
Lol, The leaves aren't the waste the smoke from the burning leaves is in my analogy. The barrel can't contain the smoke it disperses throughout the area causing air pollution. I was likening air pollution to water pollution. Disolved smoke in air to disolved proteins in water.

Hi Harry:
I also use two sponges in the aqua clear. The others answered your question about biological filtration. Discus like soft water, but not salty water. Others who post here have had problems using water from whole house water softeners. Some use RO units and then add back calcium and magnesium and someting else. . . . that I can't think of right now :P

BlueTurquoise
02-09-2003, 11:39 PM
Fossil,

Perhaps Carol's analogy was not perfect (as it is with all anaologies.

In any case, if you are willing to put in the effort to look after a gravelled and planted tank then go for it and all the best of luck.

This topic of bare bottom vs gravelled/planted can go back and forward all year, as it is really up to personal preferences etc. The two sides of the coin consists of people telling others that they have good results from BB tanks, and others saying that gravelled/planted look heaps better. Listen to everyone and make up your own mind, It is your own perogative after all.

Signing out,
Chong